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MARYLAND GUN OWNERS ARE BEING COERCED BY FEDS TO TURN IN THEIR GUNS FOR 'BALLISTIC TESTING' !!!
TheFiringLine.com ^ | 17 October 2002 | Vigilant1

Posted on 10/17/2002 2:06:03 PM PDT by Vigilant1

Over at TheFiringLine.com, there are many reports from credible long-time posters that the feds are intimidating Maryland gun owners into 'voluntarily' turning over their guns for 'ballistic testing'. Please check out the following discussion threads:

5000 rifles turned-in, in Maryland?

A Special Note To Maryland Gun Owners

Goodbye TFL- for now

This is a realization of the worst fears of gunowners. Feds showing up at your door, demanding you turn over your guns. Threats and intimidation. Absolute proof that the fedgov keeps lists of who owns what guns. This is our Orwellian nightmare come true. If you turn over your guns to the feds, good luck getting them back! Perhaps Maryland is just a test case for federal gun confiscation techniques? We'll see....


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; US: Maryland
KEYWORDS: atf; banglist; fbi; guns; rkba; sniper
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To: spodefly
Being turned in by neighbors, having them knock on the gunowner's doors..that could be interpreted as harassment I'm sure.
101 posted on 10/17/2002 4:32:57 PM PDT by Freedom2specul8
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To: aeronca
Applications being up 500% means nothing if the approvals are up 0%!
102 posted on 10/17/2002 4:38:32 PM PDT by ItisaReligionofPeace
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To: Grut
Too many Freepers eat this kind of civil rights abuse up when it's against 'the wicked'.

How 'bout some names?

103 posted on 10/17/2002 4:38:47 PM PDT by nygoose
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To: SteveH
They are also checking recent gun purchases: Authorities check gun shops for clues Washington Times Article.
104 posted on 10/17/2002 4:43:56 PM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: cavtrooper21
I always screen my calls via my answering machine. If, in the rare instance where somebody actually wants to talk to me instead of sell me something, the machine continues to record even after I pick up the phone anywhere in the house. (I can stop it by hitting a key on the phone.) If I were in this situation in MD, I would allow my machine to quietly make the recording, hide the tape after the call, and worry about the legality later.
105 posted on 10/17/2002 4:44:27 PM PDT by jiggyboy
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To: spodefly
What does 'registered' mean? All of my firearms have been bought legally with the appropriate paperwork, but so far as I am aware, none of them are 'registered' ... this sounds suspiciously like a central database of gun owners with their types of weapons, and available to law enforcement. Correct me is I am wrong, but that is not supposed to exist.

My recollection only, YMMV, IANAL, IANALEO, etc.

Federal form 4473's need to be filled out by the gun stores, I believe after GCA68 or so. The forms themselves stay at the store until the store owner closes the business at which time the store owner is required to give them to the feds. 4473s are supposed to be on hand for BATF inspection (strictly speaking requires warrant with good reason on particular individual).

Brady Act required background check info at FBI level to be destroyed within 90 days.

Maryland has some form of independent gun registration initiated at point of sale.

Bottom line is those who purchased guns legally are targets of a sweep which was not mandated at federal level by law though poss. at Maryland state level.

I believe there was a relatively recent case about Chicago getting 4473s from potentially the entire country, and appeals were denied.

Of course the 4473s, etc. are relatively incomplete in terms of who actually possesses guns, and in particular tend to leave out criminals (big surprise).

FBI using store 4473s for tracking down is to some degree a violation of the existing federal law as I see it.

So bottom line is that this is another potential gradual usurpation of citizens' rights. The boiling frog scenario. We are seeing yet another rise in the temperature of the soup pot, one that lawmakers at one point in time told us would not be permitted to happen.

Folks who are really knowledgeable this stuff, feel free to correct and add. I'm not so knowledgeable as disgusted.

Cheers...

106 posted on 10/17/2002 4:49:06 PM PDT by SteveH
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To: Rebelbase
From the article in the above link

"Investigators hunting the Washington area sniper have cast the net far and wide over the region's gun community — confiscating sign-in logs from shooting ranges, tracking sales of .223-caliber weapons and knocking on gun owners' doors.

Montgomery County police and agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) came knocking on the door of Ken Scott's home in Silver Spring twice last week, asking for his thoughts about the shooting spree and about where he was during the times of the shootings.

Mr. Scott, confident the account of his whereabouts eliminated him as a suspect, said that either his neighbors gave his name on the tip line or investigators singled him out because he owns a gun shop.

On Tuesday, ATF agents arrived at Mr. Scott's Article II Unlimited store in Silver Spring accompanied by a man who had sold Mr. Scott a .223-caliber rifle — the same round that has killed nine and wounded two persons in the sniper attacks. The agent wanted to see the gun, but it had already been resold, Mr. Scott said.

"Based on what they said to me, it seemed they were checking everyone who owned any gun that shoots that [.223-caliber] ammunition," Mr. Scott said.

Some gun owners reported that ATF agents had taken people's rifles to perform test-firing experiments and later returned the weapons. The Washington Times could not confirm the reports.

Authorities declined to comment on the probe of gun dealers and gun owners. An FBI spokesman for the multiagency task force searching for the sniper said that they were using every possible strategy to catch the killer, and that countless interviews were being conducted.

U.S. marshals from the task force questioned the owner of Schelin Guns in College Park last week about a man who took a firearms-safety class at the shop in late September, less than a week before the shooting spree began Oct. 2 in Montgomery County.

The federal agents checked the class roster and asked about sales of .223-caliber rifles, said store owner John Schelin, who had not recently sold that type of weapon.

The agents told Mr. Schelin that they were following a tip about a specific man who took the class, which is mandatory when purchasing handguns or rifles such as AK-47s or AR-15s, which are considered assault weapons.

A Northern Virginia man recently visited by ATF agents was asked whether he owned a .223-caliber weapon or had access to a white van, which has been seen at the scene of some of the shootings. The man, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said he answered no to both questions, and the agents left.

He also said the agents told him that neighbors submitted his name to the tip line because he owns guns.

"You have all these news agencies saying to call the tip line if you know anybody who owns guns, if you know anybody with a white truck or anybody acting suspicious. You know, people act on that," he said. "It's too broad of a spectrum, and the ATF have to be thorough."

ATF agents last week confiscated the sign-in log from the firing range at Clark Brothers Guns in Warrenton, Va. The log included the signatures, some illegible, of customers who had used the range during the past six months, said owner Steve Clark.

"I don't know what they hope to glean from it," he said. "I guess they are trying anything."

Lamar Miller, a handwriting expert in Summerland Key, Fla., formerly with the Alabama State Forensic Lab, said the signatures could provide information beyond who used the range.

But it would be difficult to link a signature to the writing on the tarot card found at the scene of the Oct. 7 shooting outside a Bowie school that critically wounded a 13-year-old boy, he said.

"That's not to say it can't be done," Mr. Miller said. "You could find some similarities that might bear following up. They are trying to find some similarities such as the size of the letters and the shape of the letters. If there are [similarities] they would probably try to obtain more writing samples."

Task force investigators also paid a call on the Bethesda-Chevy Chase chapter of the Izaak Walton League of America, a conservationist and outdoorsman organization that operates a private firing range in Poolesville on the western edge of Montgomery County.

ATF agents have visited numerous gun shops in the Washington area to review sales records and federal 4473 forms that list buyer information for every firearms sale. In some instances, the investigators made copies of documents, said gun shop owners and employees.

107 posted on 10/17/2002 4:50:18 PM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: All
Seems to me that the timing of all this smell highly of a RAT. A Clinton left-over with an AK-74 and orders from Daschle and/or Hitlery, combined with their helpers in the media. This would certainly get foreign affairs off the front page and domestic issues in there, now wouldn't it?

By the same token, every grunt knows that when in a defensive posture, you take out the closest enemy to your position. The JBTs should remember that advice.
108 posted on 10/17/2002 4:53:21 PM PDT by 11B3
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To: aristeides
Doesn't the Brady Bill prohibit that kind of use of that form?

No, it just makes it illegal. =]

109 posted on 10/17/2002 4:59:38 PM PDT by Oberon
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To: SteveH
What does 'registered' mean? All of my firearms have been bought legally with the appropriate paperwork, but so far as I am aware, none of them are 'registered' ... this sounds suspiciously like a central database of gun owners with their types of weapons, and available to law enforcement. Correct me is I am wrong, but that is not supposed to exist.

No, it's not supposed to exist. The Feds are blatantly storing the information on those forms because they can.

110 posted on 10/17/2002 5:02:27 PM PDT by Oberon
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To: jiggyboy
If I were in this situation in MD, I would allow my machine to quietly make the recording, hide the tape after the call, and worry about the legality later.

Which might be required sooner than one would otherwise expect, if they are threatening to execute warranted searches (BTW this translates to a need for dynamic entry, or worse, in the minds of some ATF, cf. Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc.). Once they have one on a minor charge, they can use it as leverage to bargain away omes' other rights.

Still, an automated screening would seem to be a good idea under the circumstances. I would imagine the feds would be loath to identify themselves and make threats that are obviously being recorded. If it's a friend, of course one can always just pick it up.

Another embellishment of this idea is that once picking up the FBI call, simply inform the FBI that the call is being monitored by a recording device. Depending on various laws in the jurisdiction(s), one may have to ask for a full name and explicit permission before proceeding with the conversation, otherwise the tape may be inadmissible in court proceedings (if one is envisioning the eventual need for those). Better still I would imagine to have the non-gunowning family member or friend do all the talking even in this case.

Sounds like we're in lawyer territory already on this... :-( Some kind esquire may be able to put together a FAQ on the topic for the benefit of those who live in the region...

You may want the cooperation of a neighbor since the tape and all locally kept copies will probably "disappear" permanently in the event of a warrant based search... along with all of one's legal weapons, of course... and computers, etc. ...

111 posted on 10/17/2002 5:04:01 PM PDT by SteveH
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Comment #112 Removed by Moderator

To: jiggyboy
what is the make and model of your recorder??

113 posted on 10/17/2002 5:32:18 PM PDT by CHICAGOFARMER
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To: Rebelbase
That story is very interesting ... makes what the guys at TFL are saying all the more believable. JBTs on the march and presumed innocence out the window.

By the way, did I mention that I already sold all my guns, don't remember the guys name ... all of them ... gone ... sorry, can't help ya.
114 posted on 10/17/2002 5:32:30 PM PDT by spodefly
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To: spodefly
I'm glad you forgot my name!!!!

Seriously, I only buy my weapons from private individuals. Makes it easier to not worry about the government keeping information about me ILLEGALLY.

115 posted on 10/17/2002 6:07:59 PM PDT by Alas Babylon!
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To: spodefly
sf:
"JBTs on the march...."


116 posted on 10/17/2002 6:09:01 PM PDT by Vigilant1
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To: Alas Babylon!
AB!:
"Seriously, I only buy my weapons from private individuals. Makes it easier to not worry about the government keeping information about me ILLEGALLY."

Ahhh, but have you ever signed in at a shooting range ??? If so, your name & the caliber of weapon you own is recorded. And, of course, after posting this on this forum, it's probably a good bet you're on 'the list' now (if you weren't already)....

117 posted on 10/17/2002 6:12:36 PM PDT by Vigilant1
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To: bert

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118 posted on 10/17/2002 6:13:42 PM PDT by Bob J
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To: Vigilant1; All
Wouldn't this require a warrant? The dissemination of everyone's Constitutional rights on this thread by someone who has the time would be invaluable. Maybe a standard 'these are my rights' when the knock comes...
119 posted on 10/17/2002 6:15:34 PM PDT by ApesForEvolution
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To: Vigilant1
In the interest of helping our readers avoid becoming incidential victims sacrificed on the altar of Doug Duncan's anti-gun ambitions, we asked Howard J. Fezell, a lawyer practicing in Maryland, to give us a quick summary of how to respond if police come to your door looking for your rifles. His reply is appended. We encourage you to think through what you'll do before dealing with a police visit. Bring this up with your lawyer and make sure you have sound advice ahead of time. -- Editor.

1. All contacts should be on your front porch. Nobody gets inside of the house. Better yet, talk to them through the screen door, with the screen door locked.

2. It would be a good idea to make mental notes of where you were at the time of these attacks. If they inquire about this, tell them where you were.

3. If they want to know what kind of firearms you own, just tell them to check the databases maintained by the MSP and BATF.

4. If they want to examine any firearm you own, politely decline. If they persist, then you should insist that they obtain a warrant. (It would be at this juncture that you give them the name and phone number of your lawyer, inviting them to make all further contacts through him. Politely excuse yourself and go inside.)

Howard J. Fezell, Esq.
301 846 0241
fezell @ fred.net

120 posted on 10/17/2002 6:19:09 PM PDT by ApesForEvolution
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To: ~Kim4VRWC's~
Can you hear it now...
"Sir, if you don't have anything to hide.....why should it bother you"

Response: Sir, if you had read the 2nd Amendment, you wouldn't ask!

121 posted on 10/17/2002 7:26:57 PM PDT by GummyIII
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To: GummyIII
BTTT.
122 posted on 10/17/2002 7:59:29 PM PDT by 11B3
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To: 11B3
A Clinton left-over with an AK-74 and orders from Daschle and/or Hitlery, combined with their helpers in the media.

Too bad you're smart enough to realize this is possible, but not smart enough to understand that such behavior is independent of party, and totally a calculus of power.

123 posted on 10/17/2002 8:11:44 PM PDT by DAnconia55
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To: SteveH
I'm an FFL; your understanding of 4473s and their governance is correct. They are treated as federal property in my custody, hence local LEOs must get a warrant to see them--they can't just go "fishing". Of course, ATF can see them anytime they want.
124 posted on 10/17/2002 8:52:11 PM PDT by Indrid Cold
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To: zeaal
"They will return them in good working order" ... including that new little shiny micro-chip tracking device (GPS) which was added. -sarcasm off-

I think anyone who gives over their weapons will never see them again because they will be held as evidence in the trial (hopfully the SOB eats a hail of lead and there won't be trial) so the defense can run tests on the weapons the investigators ruled out.

125 posted on 10/17/2002 8:52:43 PM PDT by TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig
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To: All
Thanks to Bossman at AssaultWeb for this:

This is how us gunowners are being treated in Maryland.

-------------------------------------------


126 posted on 10/17/2002 9:09:03 PM PDT by Vigilant1
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To: Rebelbase
Just pinged a long-time buddy of mine in DC. He works as a staffer for a Texas congressman, is a big-time shooter and former FFL holder. I gave him a link to this thread. Here is his reply:

Well, I do know for a fact that the police showed up at the door of one fellow who had an AR-15 registered with the State of Maryland. About 10 or 11 p.m. He spoke to them through the screen door. He told them the gun had not been stolen. They asked if they could come in -- "No". They asked if they could examine the gun -- "No. Go get a warrent if you want to see it." They left. He is an attorney. I would suppose they've visited quite a few people. That number (meaning the 5000 - jrp) sounds pretty high.

Sounds like it is for real, although I agree that it's unlikely 5000 folks turned their guns in.

127 posted on 10/17/2002 9:49:43 PM PDT by jrp
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To: Travis McGee
Less talk about novels and more printing.LOL
128 posted on 10/17/2002 10:26:30 PM PDT by TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig
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To: big ern; Travis McGee
It's happening.
129 posted on 10/17/2002 10:31:43 PM PDT by nunya bidness
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To: big ern; nunya bidness
I even guessed right on the states: MD and VA.

Every day I'm putting a few chapters in the smooth, I should have it ready to print in a month + or -. Next I have to get a website, I am going to publish the first chapters serially in the website free, what do you think?

130 posted on 10/17/2002 10:45:39 PM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: nunya bidness
What exactly is "happening."
131 posted on 10/17/2002 10:47:58 PM PDT by TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig
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To: SteveH
My cases are confined to the Montgomery County area...

Apparently this is the case for the time being, as I live in P G County and haven't been contacted by these "individuals" as yet. If, and when I am, you may be assured that such contact will be reported here on FR...

the infowarrior

132 posted on 10/18/2002 12:09:20 AM PDT by infowarrior
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To: big ern
bump
133 posted on 10/18/2002 3:31:32 AM PDT by wewillnotfail
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To: ApesForEvolution; Vigilant1; *bang_list
1. All contacts should be on your front porch. Nobody gets inside of the house. Better yet, talk to them through the screen door, with the screen door locked.

You need to find a better lawyer. There have already been at least one case where police prevented an individual from re-entering his home; while waiting for a warrant.

Never go outside to greet them. Follow the Better yet, talk to them through the screen door, with the screen door locked.

134 posted on 10/18/2002 4:14:30 AM PDT by packrat01
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To: Vigilant1
...'voluntarily' turning over their guns...

...voluntarily giving up their rights by an out-of-control government...
People who do it don't deserve freedom!

135 posted on 10/18/2002 4:24:35 AM PDT by RightWinger
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To: ~Kim4VRWC's~
My comment would be as follows if called on the phone.

Sir/Madam, on the phone you are a disembodied voice. I do not give any personal information out over the phone to anyone I do not know personally. If you are what you say you are please either contact me at an agreed future time or please show up with a warrant either for my arrest or for any specific property to be seaized. Needless to say I will cooperate with any warrant. As for any investigation you may or may not be conducting clearly my cooperation will be a function of you courtesy and politness and lack of intrusion into my personal affairs. In response to your if you've got nothing to hide comment. I respond "If you have some reasonable grounds for suspicion get a warrant."

Now the above said it seems there is at least one out of control FBIie maybe more. They could have surveyed state records in Maryland which I gather maintains more extensive records than many other states. Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - yorktown

136 posted on 10/18/2002 4:32:38 AM PDT by harpseal
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To: mhking
"And so it begins..."
137 posted on 10/18/2002 4:40:42 AM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts
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To: Vigilant1
Is this report true? Has it been confirmed? Because if it is then the clock on the wall is striking midnight. Will this happen in every city that a sniper shows up in, all across America?

And what will be the response of citizens given what appears to be this incrimental technique? No time to oganize a response obviously. And they were singing....Bye, bye, Miss American Pie, drove my chevy to the levy but the levy was dry.
138 posted on 10/18/2002 4:40:52 AM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: harpseal
That's a polite response...it doesn't invite a negative reply, attitude or action.

Now, I would like to see if the rumors are true or not..
139 posted on 10/18/2002 4:54:10 AM PDT by Freedom2specul8
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To: Vigilant1

140 posted on 10/18/2002 4:59:16 AM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts
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To: freddy
Ouch! You said it, not me!! 8~)
141 posted on 10/18/2002 6:02:47 AM PDT by tracer
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To: bvw
"Another technique would be to say to the "agent" -- "Sir, at this time I must inform you that I may record this call for reviewe by my attorney."

Informing the JBT would be a very good move. I would advise him that the call is being recorded "for purposes of customer service and quality control".....

142 posted on 10/18/2002 6:11:19 AM PDT by tracer
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To: Sloth
I'm going to buy some more.
143 posted on 10/18/2002 6:14:05 AM PDT by jjm2111
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To: Rebelbase
"U.S. marshals from the task force questioned the owner of Schelin Guns in College Park last week about a man who took a firearms-safety class at the shop in late September, less than a week before the shooting spree began Oct. 2 in Montgomery County."

Well Marshal, ya plum got 'im, by crackie. Good work, sir. You've really come a long way since your days as a shipping clerk at the Baltimore Sheltered Workshop.

Yup, yer Maw would be real proud. So'd your daddy, if only you knew who -- oh, well, never mind.......

144 posted on 10/18/2002 6:19:52 AM PDT by tracer
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To: glock rocks
Is that picture from that site “A Human Right?”
145 posted on 10/18/2002 6:25:49 AM PDT by jjm2111
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To: jjm2111
yes it is. mash here for more.

do we need the second amendment?  molon labe

146 posted on 10/18/2002 6:46:14 AM PDT by glock rocks
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To: glock rocks
It's an excellent site. The guy who runs it must be a photographer for his day job, because he has a lot of skill (both technical and an eye for the political). I like the use of female models with AR-type weapons.

BTW, glocks do rock.
147 posted on 10/18/2002 6:47:54 AM PDT by jjm2111
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To: jjm2111
oleg volk. here's his page... http://www.olegvolk.net/
148 posted on 10/18/2002 6:55:28 AM PDT by glock rocks
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To: wewillnotfail
bumping hoping for an update??
149 posted on 10/18/2002 7:15:19 AM PDT by wewillnotfail
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To: Vigilant1
Get it straight guy.

In Maryland, it is illegal to tape a telephone conversation.

NOT to tape the voices in your office!!!!!

Why do you think that people put you on the speaker BOX!!!

My recorder picks up the voices in my office.

LET'S GET THE INFORMATION STRAIGHT AND REALLY HELP THESE FOLKS.

Cops record you when they pull you over.
150 posted on 10/18/2002 7:52:10 AM PDT by CHICAGOFARMER
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