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MARYLAND GUN OWNERS ARE BEING COERCED BY FEDS TO TURN IN THEIR GUNS FOR 'BALLISTIC TESTING' !!!
TheFiringLine.com ^ | 17 October 2002 | Vigilant1

Posted on 10/17/2002 2:06:03 PM PDT by Vigilant1

Over at TheFiringLine.com, there are many reports from credible long-time posters that the feds are intimidating Maryland gun owners into 'voluntarily' turning over their guns for 'ballistic testing'. Please check out the following discussion threads:

5000 rifles turned-in, in Maryland?

A Special Note To Maryland Gun Owners

Goodbye TFL- for now

This is a realization of the worst fears of gunowners. Feds showing up at your door, demanding you turn over your guns. Threats and intimidation. Absolute proof that the fedgov keeps lists of who owns what guns. This is our Orwellian nightmare come true. If you turn over your guns to the feds, good luck getting them back! Perhaps Maryland is just a test case for federal gun confiscation techniques? We'll see....


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; US: Maryland
KEYWORDS: atf; banglist; fbi; guns; rkba; sniper
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1 posted on 10/17/2002 2:06:03 PM PDT by Vigilant1
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To: *bang_list
BANG !!!
2 posted on 10/17/2002 2:06:44 PM PDT by Vigilant1
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To: Vigilant1
Clinton holdovers are rot at the core.
3 posted on 10/17/2002 2:08:49 PM PDT by bert
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To: Vigilant1
"And so it begins..."
4 posted on 10/17/2002 2:09:22 PM PDT by mhking
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To: mhking
What will you do?
5 posted on 10/17/2002 2:10:13 PM PDT by gridlock
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To: Vigilant1
I'm sure the shooter will become overwhelmed with civic pride and turn in his gun.</sarcasm> Do libs really believe the stuff they're shoveling?
6 posted on 10/17/2002 2:10:30 PM PDT by Hillarys Gate Cult
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To: Vigilant1
Maybe they want to take the citizens guns away (for testing of course), before they announce that the sniper is Al Queda?
7 posted on 10/17/2002 2:10:35 PM PDT by katnip
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To: Vigilant1
I need to go out and buy some guns.
8 posted on 10/17/2002 2:11:00 PM PDT by Sloth
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To: gridlock
Just say, "NO".
9 posted on 10/17/2002 2:11:26 PM PDT by 45Auto
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To: Vigilant1
I couldn't get the link to work.
10 posted on 10/17/2002 2:12:30 PM PDT by Oberon
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To: Vigilant1
I bet they will return them promptly, and in good working order. </sarcasm>
11 posted on 10/17/2002 2:14:14 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum
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To: Vic3O3; cavtrooper21
And so it starts....

Semper Fi
12 posted on 10/17/2002 2:14:39 PM PDT by dd5339
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To: Vigilant1
Final paragraph of advice to gun owners being interviewed at home by police officers, after politely declining to show their waepon without a warrant...

(It would be at this juncture that you give them the name and phone number of your lawyer, inviting them to make all further contacts through him. Politely excuse yourself and go inside.)

The lawyers find another cash cow!

13 posted on 10/17/2002 2:15:02 PM PDT by JimRed
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To: Vigilant1
From the first link:
"The Story;
"Tuesday morning while finishing my coffee and listing to the news I receive a call from someone claiming to be a BATF agent who would like to "TALK" to me. Who then starts asking me about weapons I may own. When I told him I had no idea who he was and was not about to engage in a conversation about such things over the phone, he gets abusive and treating, we end the conversation there. There minutes later I get a call from a gun shop owner I know telling me to please talk to the nice BATF man. So I call him back for more info. (I will not mention Agents names here since I am now talking to my Attorney). But after a long run around I finally got a local PG Detective to confirm who I was talking to and I called his district and confirmed who he was. So I call the BATF agent back and asked him AM I A TARGET OF THIS OR ANYOTHER INVESTIGATION, he says I haven't met you yet. I tell him after I talk to
my Attorney and get his views I will talk to you if he says ok, more abuse, they are going to come and get me. Why me well it seems one of those form 4477's that's out there has my name on it and They BATF just wants to "TALK" and by the way WE WANT TO SEE YOUR RIFLE AND BORROW IT FOR A WHILE. I have talked to two Attorneys and a good friend at NRA, IF YOU GIVE TOUR RIFLE TO STATE OR BATF YOU ARE NOT Likely TO SEE IT AGAIN...."
14 posted on 10/17/2002 2:15:06 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed
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To: Vigilant1
This is an outrage, but I suspect that LE is trying to appear like they are doing something (so they can impress all the dis-armed, fearful liberals).
Do they REALLY think the gunman is going to walk into the police station and offer up his weapon for ballistic testing?
When all else fails--resort to any useless, irrational, illogical means necessary?

15 posted on 10/17/2002 2:15:32 PM PDT by aeronca
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To: Vigilant1
And the fact that it's been shown that it takes only a few shots to change the fingerprint to such a degree that existing programs will be useless is still ignored.
16 posted on 10/17/2002 2:15:34 PM PDT by sharktrager
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To: Vigilant1
Absolute proof that the fedgov keeps lists of who owns what guns.

That proof could come in very handy if we play our political cards right.

17 posted on 10/17/2002 2:16:34 PM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: JimRed
WAEPON?

I mean weapon!
18 posted on 10/17/2002 2:17:46 PM PDT by JimRed
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To: JimRed
Terrible when you have to hire a lawyer to protect your Rights.

But, "The State" has to do the same.

19 posted on 10/17/2002 2:21:24 PM PDT by TYVets
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To: Vigilant1
"Can you spell 'warrant'? I didn't think you could. Now go and call my good friend, Mr. Lawyer, and ask him to spell it for you"..............
20 posted on 10/17/2002 2:21:32 PM PDT by tracer
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To: Vigilant1
TFL may not like us posting their comments over here, and the person who posted this one may not like it either, but I couldn't resist:

This evening about 8pm I got a call from a man who claimed to be an FBI agent surveying local gun owners (yeah right). Now this guy called me and started asking questions (I didn't answer BTW) about my lifestyle, what I've done this past week and about my guns. As some of you may know you should NEVER give out any kind of personal info to someone who calls you (too many scam artists out there). Also, I've never done anything wrong so why would the FBI call me? I assume it is someone trolling around until he finds someone willing to devulge info that will let him know who has guns worth stealing. I tell him this is who I think he is, so no I won't tell him about my guns (actually, I tell him I won't tell him IF I have guns, it is none of his business), my daily habits, my travels, etc. I tell him, that even if he is FBI I've done nothing illegal and so it is none of his buisness then either.

Then it gets really interesting. I dial " *69" to find the number he called from and then call the local FBI office to let them know that someone seems to be fraudulently identifing himself as FBI to get sensitive info about who owns guns (and their daily habits). I tell him the kinds of questions the guy asked (very aggressive- like he was trying to intimidate me) and the nice man at the local office told me it couldn't have been the FBI because, first they don't call people like that, and second they wouldn't use such tactics. I give him the number from *69- it is their Montgomery County MD task force ! I tell the guy that I may call back to apologize for my tone then, but I still won't tell him what guns I own or what I did this past week (it is still none of their business) to which he responds "I wouldn't either".

I call the office (though I don't have the agent's name) to find out who called me so I can apologize for my tone. The guy on the phone tells me that there are so many people there that there is no way he can figure out who it was without a name. I tell him the entire situation and he says "oh, wait, I think I know exactly who you talked to" "I'll have him call you back". A couple minutes later the phone rings and its the original guy (pissed as hell at me BTW).

I apologize for my previous tone, tell him that since I've never done anything wrong I couldn't imagine why the FBI would be calling me and reminded him that I had thought that it must have been someone trying to find out who owns what in the area to target homes. He tells me "Its a damn good thing you called. I had dispatched about a dozen local police and two ATF agents to your home."

I ask him how I came to his attention and why he is taking me so seriously (12 police and 2 ATF!!!). He tells me that "you've been buying an awful lot of guns lately haven't you" (btw, I have a fair #, but not like many here). I say that I have some guns but they are all legal so I still don't see the problem. I ask if he actually has a list of my guns (he does), how he got the list (won't tell me). I ask why he called (again). He won't tell me exactly but he then asks what I have been doing the past week. Now I'm getting REALLY mad (but I try to stay calm because I don't really want to go to jail). It becomes pretty clear in our conversatation that he somehow thinks I'm involved in the DC/MD/VA shootings . I then ask that if he has a list of my guns shouldn't he be able to tell that I don't own a .223, you know the round that the media has reported is the one being used. He tells me that many of my forms sent in by my FFLs were incomplete and didn't list the caliber (WHAT- who was the incompetent who sent the gov't an incomplete form and why is this the first I've heard about it, and I thought they weren't supposed to be used as registration/tracking/etc). Now he is clearly getting mad (and hinting that he won't call off the team he has coming for me). He DEMANDS to know what I've been up to the past week. I tell him that I've been home sometimes, at work sometimes, in Yeshiva sometimes and shopping sometimes (I know I shouldn't have said anything, but I'm tired, annoyed, a bit nervous, etc so I wasn't thinking straight). He then gets even angrier and threatens me with jail if I don't give him the answers he wants. I say it would help if he was more specific then. He asks where I was Fri morning (the time of the last shooting). I tell him I was at home. Now he's even madder (odd, I've just given him a specific answer like he wanted- once he gave a specific question). He wants to know if anyone can verify this (luckily my dad was home at the time- yes I currently live w/ my parents). He then ORDERS me to put my dad on the phone (luckily he was here) and tells me that if he doesn't verify my story exactly I should "be prepared to take a trip at around 11PM." My dad answers all his questions (incl. his birthday and why he was at home and not at work), I get the impression he was very hostile w/ my dad (he was shaking) and he kept telling my dad I have lots of guns (some of you may remember that my parents, esp. my dad, are strongly anti). Then they hung up.

To set the record straight: -I do have more guns than average but I don't really think it is an excessive amount (13, though I have sold a few) -I was no where near any of the shootings when they happened (though I live nearby enough that I have been in some of the areas since- no choice, my Yeshiva is nearby and so is my favorite Kosher supermarket) -There was a little more to the conversation, I only listed the major parts. When he did get really hostile I probably got a bit more punchy than I should have. I had the nerve to point out that all of my guns were perfectly legal, I didn't have the caliber the murderer is using, I stressed that I did nothing wrong, etc. This only made him angrier. I then pointed out (at the "YOU OWN GUNS" badgering) that yes, they are protected under the Constitution too. -No, I did not wait for a lawyer, I know I should have. However, I pointed out some of the reasons above. Also, I didn't really feel like being taken to jail for G-d knows how many hours (I have to be somewhere at 7:30am) to get it sorted out. I figured that since he already had a list of my guns, and since I didn't do anything wrong (heck, I wasn't even in the area of ANY of the shootings when they happened) and I could prove that I was someplace else for two of them (I had witnesses) it couldn't hurt to tell they guy I had been at home.

What I am doing: -I am now a little paranoid. I guess I've decided against not posting here (though I doubt if I'll post except on this thread).

-I will be keeping a log of my activities, time, and the people who I'm with until the shooter is captured in case I should get called again. That way I can say with certainty who I was with and put them in contact with him/her (I'm pretty sure I was with people at the time of some of the shootings I didn't have witnesses for, I just don't remember for sure who I was with or what I was doing- try to remember all the details of the last week, especially under stress).

-I will try my best to never be alone until the shooter is captured so that I will have witnesses to where I was and what I was doing.

I must say this situation is really scary. First, I find it scary that my only reason to be suspect is that I own guns (what some faceless person determines to be an "excessive" number of them). Second, the threats to me, someone who's done nothing, the bullying (I was STRONGLY advised against a lawyer, I was threatened with jail, a forced entry, etc). Last, the "be prepared to take a trip" part, especially for a Jew (remember the Nazis), is reminiscent of certain totalitarian regimes.

21 posted on 10/17/2002 2:23:18 PM PDT by freedomcrusader
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
"They will return them in good working order" ... including that new little shiny micro-chip tracking device (GPS) which was added. -sarcasm off-
22 posted on 10/17/2002 2:24:36 PM PDT by zeaal
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To: Vigilant1
Maryland gun owners should tell the state and feds to kiss their asses!
23 posted on 10/17/2002 2:24:37 PM PDT by RetiredArmy
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To: Vigilant1

24 posted on 10/17/2002 2:24:38 PM PDT by South40
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To: Vigilant1
I bet the sniper was one of the first ones to turn over his weapons.

Do the Libs actually believe people are that dumb? Or are they really that dumb. I cannot believe this crap. It amazes me at the stupidity of the sheep.

25 posted on 10/17/2002 2:26:25 PM PDT by auggy
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To: Beelzebubba
There's an easy way to deal with this kind of crap. If anyone calls you and suggests that they want to test your gun, give them an answer like this:

"Sorry, but I can't. I have to take it with me while I go out hunting down some bastard who's been shooting people all over the DC area. Haven't you heard?"

BTW, anyone who allows the ATF to "test" their gun is a damned fool -- there's nothing that would prevent them from framing you for the crimes.

26 posted on 10/17/2002 2:26:45 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: Vigilant1
Interesting snippet from the "Goodbye TFL" link:

Incidentally, apparently the NICS is defacto registration (what a surprise). The agent that called me seemed to know exactly what I bought going back a couple years (and MD doesn't officially have registration either).

The Brady Act officially prohibits any government agency from maintaining a registration list. My reading of it does not preclude the government from passing data to a NON-governmental group (like handgun control inc) and letting THEM maintain a database. Something like the stink in California a few years back over cops there giving data to ADL so ADL could maintain files on certain groups for the cops, where the cops were not allowed to.

28 posted on 10/17/2002 2:27:24 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor
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To: Sloth
We all need to go out and hold a huge nationwide swap meet -- anonymously, of course.
29 posted on 10/17/2002 2:29:01 PM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: Vigilant1
They were blabbering on Fox today about how neighbors are turning in neighbors who they know own firearms and that the police have confiscated several "illegal" guns.

With the Federal, State, Local and soon to be military prescence - I am sure there is a whole lot of crap going on that we are not being told about.

This whole situation is turning the country upside down.
30 posted on 10/17/2002 2:32:34 PM PDT by Liberty Teeth
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To: Vic3O3; cavtrooper21
Check out post 21, this is what I was mentioning the other night.

Semper Fi
31 posted on 10/17/2002 2:33:25 PM PDT by dd5339
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To: SauronOfMordor
"The Brady Act officially prohibits any government agency from maintaining a registration list."

Indeed. Take the bastards to court if they darken your doorway and show them that discovery indeed is hell.

They may even be forced to arrest each other at a future date....

32 posted on 10/17/2002 2:33:27 PM PDT by tracer
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To: All
Everyone calm down - I'm sure that the ACLU will put up one of their strongest media campaigns to put a stop to this.;)
33 posted on 10/17/2002 2:34:39 PM PDT by WASH
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To: tracer
And BTW, I'll bet that the definition of "maintaining" is open to debate.....
34 posted on 10/17/2002 2:35:37 PM PDT by tracer
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To: Vigilant1
The great perversion (which must be pointed out to any "ambivilent" folks) is that anyone who hands over their gun for testing is not the culprit. Sorta like the drunk who loses his wallet in a dark alley, but looks for it under a lamppost because he can see better.
35 posted on 10/17/2002 2:36:44 PM PDT by ctdonath2
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To: ctdonath2
And anyone who doesn't is a bad man, a suspect...
36 posted on 10/17/2002 2:38:26 PM PDT by GhostofWCooper
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To: tracer
They may even be forced to arrest each other at a future date....

Yes, but "we're at war" don'tcha know? Too many Freepers eat this kind of civil rights abuse up when it's against 'the wicked'.

37 posted on 10/17/2002 2:39:14 PM PDT by Grut
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To: Beelzebubba
hey BATF just wants to "TALK" and by the way WE WANT TO SEE YOUR RIFLE AND BORROW IT FOR A WHILE. I have talked to two Attorneys and a good friend at NRA, IF YOU GIVE TOUR RIFLE TO STATE OR BATF YOU ARE NOT Likely TO SEE IT AGAIN...."

If the BATF makes this offer to me, I would take it.

My counter-offer would be that they lend me a fully-automatic M-16A2 rifle for the same time period that they borrow my rifle. Sounds fair to me.

Of course, they could always buy my rifle from me. I would say $10,000 would be a fair price.

38 posted on 10/17/2002 2:39:51 PM PDT by Frohickey
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To: Vigilant1
Wonderful
39 posted on 10/17/2002 2:45:41 PM PDT by Centurion2000
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To: Vigilant1
bump
40 posted on 10/17/2002 2:50:50 PM PDT by hoosierboy
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To: Frohickey
Good idea!
41 posted on 10/17/2002 2:54:23 PM PDT by Britton J Wingfield
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To: Vigilant1
Has there been any confirmation of this from any other sources? talk.politics.guns hasn't a peep about it.
42 posted on 10/17/2002 3:01:01 PM PDT by Redcloak
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To: Vigilant1
Well, the gun banners are pushing for a 'ballistic fingerprinting' database. It looks like they'll have one in Maryland now, with even the inconvenience of having to get any legislation through Congress. These bullets and fired cases that they collect will be scanned into a database, and remain on file forever.

BTW, just in case national ballistic fingerprinting passes, you can get a 'fire lapping kit' at most gunstores. It contains bullets coated with various grades of industrial grit. You reload these into cases with standard reloading equipment, and fire them in your gun. You fire the coarsest grit ones first, then move on to the finer grits. This will 'lap', or sand down the rifling grooves in your barrel, removing those nasty factory machining marks and smoothing out the interior of the barrel for better accuracy. Of course, it will also completely change the 'ballistic fingerprint' of the gun. Lots of target shooters use these kits on their guns. Best to get them now, before any ballistic fingerprinting bill passes, as they're going to be sold out & backordered soon after such a bill becomes law. Also, you might want to get a spare extractor, ejector, firing pin and to carefully polish up the bolt face with a Dremel tool and rouge pad. That will change the unique marks left on ejected brass cartridge cases, marks that are electronically photographed and added to 'ballistic fingerprinting' databases as well. Just a tip for you....

43 posted on 10/17/2002 3:02:16 PM PDT by Vigilant1
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To: Alberta's Child
The lady who spearheaded Australia's gun confiscation is now working in Baltimore. Click here for details.

This may not be a coincidence.

44 posted on 10/17/2002 3:03:27 PM PDT by Publius
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To: harpseal
FYI
45 posted on 10/17/2002 3:04:38 PM PDT by Lurker
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To: Publius
Either way, she isn't going to be too happy about the whole thing. Over the last few days, police departments in Virginia have been swamped with applications for concealed carry permits.
46 posted on 10/17/2002 3:05:55 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: Vigilant1
You've missed the point.
If you've had the gun "fingerprinted". Now they know you have a gun.
They don't really care if you change the fingerprint.
47 posted on 10/17/2002 3:07:41 PM PDT by Politically Correct
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To: Redcloak
Rc:
"Has there been any confirmation of this from any other sources? talk.politics.guns hasn't a peep about it."

I also checked a few places, including KeepAndBearArms.com, and found no mnetion of this story yet. I also tried to call both the President and Chairman of the Maryland Rifle & Pistol Association, but I just go their answering machines. I will try again later tonight.

I did report this story to Cybercast News Service, so hopefully they will investigate and post a news report about it on their site.

48 posted on 10/17/2002 3:09:26 PM PDT by Vigilant1
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To: Vigilant1
Tell 'em to "F" Off and hang up.
49 posted on 10/17/2002 3:11:23 PM PDT by MickMan51
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To: Beelzebubba
Doesn't the Brady Bill prohibit that kind of use of that form?
50 posted on 10/17/2002 3:12:33 PM PDT by aristeides
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