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Evangelical Group Says Jews Need Conversion
Deseret News ^ | Oct 12, 2002 | AP

Posted on 10/17/2002 4:20:26 PM PDT by jstone78

Evangelical Group Says Jews Need Conversion

WHEATON, Ill. (AP) — The World Evangelical Alliance is taking issue with an August report from U.S. Roman Catholic bishops that opposes efforts to target Jews for conversion.

The evangelical organization, an alliance of 120 national and regional church fellowships and 75 non-denominational ministries, has reaffirmed and reissued a declaration defending Jewish evangelism that was written in 1989 by 16 theologians from nine nations.

One of those theologians, the Rev. J.I. Packer, an Anglican teaching at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia, endorsed the reaffirmation. "Sharing Jesus Christ with our Jewish friends is as important a task as ever it was," he said.

The 27-point statement decries anti-Semitism and confesses that Christian churches have "been much to blame for tolerating and encouraging it," but says this history doesn't remove the right to share Christianity with Jews.

The Catholic bishops said deepened appreciation of God's unbroken covenant with the Jewish people means "campaigns that target Jews for conversion to Christianity are no longer acceptable in the Catholic Church."

But the evangelical paper defends such targeted evangelism and denies that Israel's covenant relationship by itself brings salvation or that "any person can enjoy God's favor apart from the mediation of Jesus Christ."

"Faith in Jesus Christ is humanity's only way to come to know the Creator," the paper asserts.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: christians; conversion; jews
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To: jstone78

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51 posted on 10/17/2002 6:10:00 PM PDT by Bob J
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To: The KG9 Kid
I can't say that from personal experience though, since I kick the door shut on them.

I see you are a Marine from California. That would explain your lack of manners.

United States Army - Texas

52 posted on 10/17/2002 6:14:05 PM PDT by HoustonCurmudgeon
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To: hoosierboy
"Being jewish I love it, we don't proselytize. "

When some people find a wonderful thing, they want to share it with others. Then again some folks want to keep good things to themselves.

I never understood why people who believe they have found something profoundly valuable would not care about whether others receive the same blessing.

53 posted on 10/17/2002 6:21:32 PM PDT by cookcounty
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To: jstone78
Evangelical Group Says Jews Need Conversion

Cute way the author spins this. The evangelicals "take issue" with a heterodox position of some American Catholic bishops. Yeah, right. The Christian church all the way back to Jesus himself, a Jew, said that everyone needs to be converted if he wants to see the kingdom of G-d. Such a pity that ignorance of theology is so rampant that the writer is unable to see his error.
54 posted on 10/17/2002 6:26:03 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: HoustonCurmudgeon
Some of my jewish friends think the religious folks are what's wrong in Israel.........aaaaarrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhh

And yes, they're democrats...........double arrrrrrrrggggggghhhhh

55 posted on 10/17/2002 6:53:27 PM PDT by OldFriend
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To: hoosierboy
"Being jewish, I love it. We don't proselytize."

How Jews have benefited from proselytizing: Yes, that's right, benefited. Without jewish proselytizing BC and into the early christian era there wouldn't be enough Jews today to sustain Israel, it probably would not have been founded in the first place. (In my view, the Jews were more enlightened then.

Has it ever occurred to you that if you invited certain peoples (especially in the middle east) to share in the blessings of Yahweh, the security of Israel and Jews generally might IMPROVE? Those poor folk have no clue as to what the blessings of the Hebrews are.

As a great Jew once said: "How shall they hear, without a preacher?"

56 posted on 10/17/2002 6:55:07 PM PDT by cookcounty
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To: freebilly
It is our duty and privilege to share the message, to all, of salvation through Christ crucified.
That's our job, everyone's else's job is to choose to believe or not.
40 - freebilly


Don't try to tell me what my job is, and in return I'll let you be free to do yours.

Deal?

And do you 'get' the principle?
45 - tpaine

"tpaine, you've already made it quite clear you're an atheist. You've already made a choice. That was your job, and you performed it admirably...."

Billy, it is obvious you don't get the constitutional principle here.

You're attempting to tell me that my job is being an 'athiest'. -- And that yours is to set me straight.
I'm not your athiest, and if you persist in that lie, you aren't a Christian, - nor much of an american, -- in any sense of those words.

57 posted on 10/17/2002 6:55:44 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: OldFriend
Some of my jewish friends think the religious folks are what's wrong in Israel.........aaaaarrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhh And yes, they're democrats...........double arrrrrrrrggggggghhhhh

I understand and would get rid of my Jewish friends, but they're just so darn nice!

BTW did you notice I've gotten better about the REFORM (no E D)?

58 posted on 10/17/2002 6:57:56 PM PDT by HoustonCurmudgeon
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To: freebilly
"... I'm a Christian, I've never been to a service where a Pastor spoke about Hell-fire and Brimstone... Maybe you need to actually talk to a few Christians rather than rely on some jerkwater movie's characterization of them.... "

That would be because you live in the middle of the California wine country, God bless you.

Maybe you need to actually talk to a few fellow Christians in some jerkwater location and see what your fellows are really like, in too many cases.

59 posted on 10/17/2002 7:01:39 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: sinkspur
>The Jews will always be the Chosen People.

Howz that again? Chosen by whom, and for what? (Cite specific Biblical authority, please.)

Click here for 3-MINUTE ISRAELITE HISTORY.

60 posted on 10/17/2002 7:16:24 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
Chosen by whom, and for what?

When you get out of kindergarten, you'll be ready to learn some salvation history.

61 posted on 10/17/2002 7:19:45 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: HoustonCurmudgeon
LOL, yes I noticed the REFORM......
62 posted on 10/17/2002 7:20:34 PM PDT by OldFriend
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To: sinkspur
>When you get out of kindergarten, you'll be ready to learn some salvation history.

I'm here and I'm ready. Put your evidence where your mouth is.

63 posted on 10/17/2002 7:21:49 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: elbucko
"THAT'S the main reason my Jewish friends vote Democrat. To be left alone."

Oh, that's rich. The statist control freaks are going to leave them alone. Sure.
64 posted on 10/17/2002 7:22:37 PM PDT by ovrtaxt
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To: cookcounty
What is it you don't understand about live and let live? What is it you don't understand about treating others as you would wish to be treated?
65 posted on 10/17/2002 7:23:20 PM PDT by OldFriend
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To: sinkspur
Salvation history?
--- Are you speaking in tongues tonight?
- Whats your point?
66 posted on 10/17/2002 7:24:29 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine
Whats your point?

Any Christian who doesn't know that the Jews are God's Chosen People is either being intentionally disingenuous, or knows nothing about the Old Testament.

67 posted on 10/17/2002 7:27:24 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
>>Chosen by whom, and for what? (Cite specific Biblical authority, please.)

>Any Christian who doesn't know that the Jews are God's Chosen People is either being intentionally disingenuous, or knows nothing about the Old Testament.

Wrong on both counts. Here is your chance to demonstrate your profound Biblical knowledge. Chosen by whom, and for what? (Cite specific Biblical authority, please.)

68 posted on 10/17/2002 7:31:55 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: jstone78
I don't understand what all the griping is about on this thread. Christianity is just Judaism fulfilled. The entire Old Testament pointed forward to the Messiah. When He showed up (yes, I mean Jesus) many Jews believed. There were NO nonJewish believers for about 14 years, and when a Roman got saved, the Jews freaked out.

Over time, they separated from the nonbelieving Jewish population, (what Christian wants to marry someone who doesn't have a realtionship with Christ?) and became part of the 'regular' population.

The Jews that are left are, by definition, descendants of the unbelievers. When one of them gets saved, thay are Messianic, but usually retain their ties to the Jewish community for outreach purposes.

Why is this so controversial? The Jews need Christ just like the rest of us.
69 posted on 10/17/2002 7:32:56 PM PDT by ovrtaxt
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To: HinduAmerican
there is no difference between al-qaida and this evangelical christen group. may they have not yet trained in afghanistan.

Considering that Hindu nationalist groups are just as bad as muslem groups in attacking christians I find your statement quite ironic. Hindu's and Muslems are murdering christians in the streets of india on a everyday basis yet you cannot say the same about christians.
70 posted on 10/17/2002 7:37:35 PM PDT by Brush_Your_Teeth
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To: ovrtaxt

>There were NO nonJewish believers for about 14 years, and when a Roman got saved, the Jews freaked out.

That's almost true, but not quite. The difference lies in understanding the meaning of the word GENTILE and it's proper use. Please excuse the long answer but that's the only way I know to properly explain it.

GENTILE is a generic word. Like the words FOREIGNER and STRANGER it has no specific meaning until the user gives it a specific context. A Foreigner to one person is a Countryman to another. A Stranger to one person is a Friend to another. A Gentile to one group of people is a Relative of another group.

GENTILE simply means "not one of us", or "not one of our group". Mormons call non-Mormons "Gentiles", and Jews call non-Jews "Gentiles". But outside a specific context the word Gentile does not stand on it's own. When used as slang, "Gentiles" are (1) Any who are "uninitiated", as in amateurs or neophites, (2) Those who are naive, like potential victims, or clients, (3) Anyone not of our group, like competing sports teams or competing companies.

For Example: The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel are a unique sub-set of Gentiles who are Israelites, but are not Jews. Viewed from a Jewish perspective, being non-Jews they are Gentiles. But viewed from an Israelite perspective they are not Gentiles but fellow Israelites.

Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the Lost Sheep of The House of Israel."

We need to remember the Title House of Israel was assigned to the Northern Kingdom when the Davidic Kingdom split. The Northern Kingdom was never Jewish, therefore Jesus command to go FIRST to the Lost Sheep of The House of Israel was NOT a command to go first to lost Jews.

Jesus was both an Israelite and a Jew. He said "do not go to Israelite Gentiles." (That is, "do not go to non-Israelites.") A common misinterpretation has Him referring to Jewish Gentiles, saying "do not go to non-Jews. That is not correct.

The (post Davidic) House of Israel soon became The Lost Tribes of Israel who won their freedom from the Assyrians ~610 BC. These 5 MILLION Israelites spread quickly to the West and North as they exploded into history as The CELTS, later known as Europeans and Americans. It was to these non-Jewish Israelites in Galatia, Ephesus, Corinth, etc. that Jesus first sent his 12 apostles.

These Northern Kingdom Israelites were not Jews, but were Gentiles in the Jewish sense. However they were not Gentiles in the Israelite sense because as offspring of Jacob/Israel they WERE Israelites. This huge Celtic Kingdom of Israelites was simply called the The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

These ISRAELITE CELTIC GENTILES made up the bulk of the early Christians and their offspring are the backbone of Christianity today. All the promises their ancestors received as Israelites are still good, for Gods inheritance has no statute of limitations.


71 posted on 10/17/2002 7:44:32 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
Lost Tribe,

Simply read Romans chapter 9 - Jews chosen by God, set aside during the Christian age, but will be regrafted in the future. Still chosen - just being disciplined for not recognizing Christ as Messiah.

best to you, AMPU

72 posted on 10/17/2002 7:45:20 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: sinkspur
And why is this an issue on a political websites 'news/activism' forum?
73 posted on 10/17/2002 7:47:06 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: Jack Black
You sir win. Your prize: a cookie.
74 posted on 10/17/2002 7:50:46 PM PDT by Saturnalia
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
>Simply read Romans chapter 9 - Jews chosen by God, set aside during the Christian age, but will be regrafted in the future. Still chosen - just being disciplined for not recognizing Christ as Messiah. best to you, AMPU

Thank You. I certainly have no quarrel with that. Indeed, I support that same Biblical interpretation.

But I am not referring to things metaphysical, simply Biblical and Historial genealogy. As when disussing the physical lineage of Jesus. A short summary of Israelite history and genealogy is RIGHT HERE.

Cordially...

75 posted on 10/17/2002 7:51:56 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
Historial Historical
76 posted on 10/17/2002 7:53:06 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: HoustonCurmudgeon
Is it considered good manners in Texas to knock on someone's door at 7am and not take no for an answer?
77 posted on 10/17/2002 7:55:08 PM PDT by Bella_Bru
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To: tpaine
And why is this an issue on a political websites 'news/activism' forum?

Ask the person who started the thread. I'm just participating, like you.

78 posted on 10/17/2002 7:58:23 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: Bella_Bru
Is it considered good manners in Texas to knock on someone's door at 7am and not take no for an answer?

Madam,

That would very much depend upon the question and who was asking it!! ;-)

79 posted on 10/17/2002 7:59:49 PM PDT by HoustonCurmudgeon
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To: LostTribe
Lost Tribe,

Thanks for your cordial response.

OK, I must say I don't have any idea where this information you posted has it's source. You may be right...

But I must add that as a seminary graduate and teacher, I don't believe your understanding of Mathew 10:5... is correct. Gentiles were non Jews and Samaritans were half Jews (origin: sometime after 722 BC when Assyria conquered the northern kingdom, it moved the conquered people of northern Mesopotamia into Israel where intermarriage took place.

The kindom message of Christ was aimed at God's covenant peoples - the Jews - who were lost.

Now, here's the great thing... I still wish you the best. In comparison with understanding our need of a Savior, this is a minor point of discussion.

best, AMPU

80 posted on 10/17/2002 8:03:01 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: HoustonCurmudgeon
Could just be that JWs in Cali have no manners either. They like to come around on Saturday mornings at 7am. It usually takes a little while to get rid of them. I understand their desire to evangelize, but I just wish they'd understand my desire to sleep and not hear their message.
81 posted on 10/17/2002 8:10:08 PM PDT by Bella_Bru
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To: LostTribe
Good point. I understand the distinction. That's why I said nonJewish instead of Gentile.
82 posted on 10/17/2002 8:13:39 PM PDT by ovrtaxt
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To: Bella_Bru
Since when are JWs Christians? They use a very different book. (And they only come to my house ONCE.)
83 posted on 10/17/2002 8:17:30 PM PDT by ovrtaxt
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To: Bella_Bru
I understand your problem and do not care for the JW group at all. Tell them you are a Roman Catholic and it will keep most of them and all the Mormans away. I would however point out that the 7am came from you and not the California/Marine who I called ill mannered.
84 posted on 10/17/2002 8:18:14 PM PDT by HoustonCurmudgeon
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Comment #85 Removed by Moderator

To: ml/nj
Moses put his faith in the Christ who would come and had been prophesied to do so clear back in Genesis. We look back to Christ who has come. Only a few lived during his actual earthly ministry.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

86 posted on 10/17/2002 8:26:29 PM PDT by razorbak
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Comment #87 Removed by Moderator

To: Betty4Bush
Where did you get your theology, a cereal box? Or a Bazooka Joe wrapper?

I don't even know what to say to that. PLEASE, if anyone reads that, that's NOT what the Bible says!
88 posted on 10/17/2002 8:27:55 PM PDT by ovrtaxt
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Comment #89 Removed by Moderator

To: Betty4Bush
"Betty4Bush signed up 2002-10-17."

You need to be aware of something. There are pastors, teachers, theologians and people with something of an education on FR who are reading your posts. You will not be able to post that kind of ignorant stuff without being challenged on it, WITH SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLES BACKING US UP. Be careful, you will be corrected. In love, of course.

90 posted on 10/17/2002 8:35:25 PM PDT by ovrtaxt
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To: Betty4Bush
Save me from what? I'm sorry, but I don't like motivation by fear.
91 posted on 10/17/2002 8:37:30 PM PDT by ItisaReligionofPeace
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
>Thanks for your cordial response.

My pleasure.  It is a joy to visit with someone who's knowledge is honestly grounded and opinions are carefully considered.  Those opinions are always worth careful review and extended thought.

>OK, I must say I don't have any idea where this information you posted has it's source. You may be right...

I can only take responsibility for myself.  {ggg}.  It either works, or it doesn't.

>But I must add that as a seminary graduate and teacher,

Nice to meet another one!  I have numerous ex-College roomates who are mainline Seminary Teachers, Pastors, College Deans, etc.  My own formal Theological training is more humble, but still better than 99% of what you see on TV (for what very little that is worth!) and better by far than many who are pastoring parishes in America.  In addition, I did post-Doctoral work in Biblical Archeology at both Oxford University and University of Dublin (Trinity College), plus extensive global travel and museum hopping, including most of the worlds major Celtic sites.  But enough pedigree sniffing. {ggg}.

> I don't believe your understanding of Mathew 10:5... is correct.

Fair enough.

>Gentiles were non Jews and Samaritans were half Jews (origin: sometime after 722 BC when Assyria conquered the northern kingdom, it moved the conquered people of northern Mesopotamia into Israel where intermarriage took place.

Undoubtely some of that did take place.  At least that is the default position taken by historians who can never say "I really don't know" and have to some up with some sort of answer that is not easily challengable.  (It also fails to address the generic nature of the word GENTILE, bastardized over history with a specific meaning.  It is of the nature of the word holocaust, a generic word until given a specific context.)

But if there is serious evidence that the Assyrians moved 5 MILLION people back to Israel I have not seen it.  Indeed, the evidence indicates the Northern Kingdom joined with the Medes and Persians to overthrow the overextended Assyrians.  Since the Medes and Persians controlled all escape routes except to the north, that is where evidence indicates the Lost Tribes of Israel bailed out for the west and north.  (Josephus and others...)

>The kindom message of Christ was aimed at God's covenant peoples - the Jews - who were lost.

The problem with this position is that Jews are not EXCLUSIVELY Gods' covenant people.  Please carefully review my brief thesis to save the bandwidth here: 3-MINUTE HISTORY. We can then pursue this line of thought if you like.  

>Now, here's the great thing... I still wish you the best. In comparison with understanding our need of a Savior, this is a minor point of discussion.

Absolutely right!  That is truly the GOOD NEWS.  But I feel strongly that if we do not understand who the Lost Tribes of Israel really are, we miss a huge portion of God fulfillment of history.  Hosea 1:10-11 and many other verses can not be reconciled without it. (Beyond that, we make decisions on international politics which are based on terribly flawed premises.)

Cordially...
92 posted on 10/17/2002 8:42:16 PM PDT by LostTribe
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Comment #93 Removed by Moderator

To: ovrtaxt
>There were NO nonJewish believers for about 14 years

Uhhhmm, I'm sorry, I think we are talking past each other? My point is ... there were no nonISRAELITE believers... Not the same as non JEWISH.

94 posted on 10/17/2002 8:46:06 PM PDT by LostTribe
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Comment #95 Removed by Moderator

To: Betty4Bush
"Moses is in Hell. The only way to Glory is by accepting Jesus Christ as your Personal Savior. "

Oh, Moses wasn't a believer in the Messiah? All that Tabernacle stuff was just because he was bored? All the sacrifices was just because he liked lamb dinners?

What do you think all that worship was about? It proclaimed the coming of Christ!

"The conerstone of our faith is that it is only through Jesus that you can be saved. Therefore, no matter now much you may love the Jewish God, if you do not accept Jesus as your Savior, you are damned. "

Um, Jesus IS the Jewish God. Ever hear of the Trinity?

"That means that all the people who lived before Jesus are in Hell. It means that all people who die before accepting Jesus, either because they are too young, don't have the mental capacity or any other reason, are in Hell. "

So aborted and stillborn babies go to hell? Sure, that's the God I know! Profoundly disabled people are going to hell because they can't understand the Gospel? Right.
/sarcasm

"It may not seem fair, but it is not ours to question why."

I know of another institution where you're not supposed to question or think, just accept it blindly if you're truly reverent. Islam. (There are NO Islamic theologians.)

"If Moses can get into Glory without Jesus, then you are saying that Jesus died for nothing. And Jesus did not die for nothing. He died so that we may be saved and not perish like Moses and all the people of the Old Testament. "

Moses was a believer. He didn't get in without Jesus. So was David, Elijah, Enoch, Seth, Abraham, Joseph, Isaac, etc. You need to read your Bible. You're actually saying that God rejected every person who ever lived before Christ? That's the most ignorant thing Ive ever heard! God first preached the Gospel in Genesis 3:15. After that, and to this day, anybody who believes it is saved.


96 posted on 10/17/2002 8:57:35 PM PDT by ovrtaxt
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To: LostTribe
Oh, I see. Yes, I agree.
97 posted on 10/17/2002 8:58:31 PM PDT by ovrtaxt
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To: Betty4Bush
>The Jews were the Chosen People. The Lord gave them everything. Freed them from slavery... And what did they do? Spit in God's eye

Hi Betty. Both the Jewish (Southern Kindgom Jews to be 1,500 years later) and "non-Jewish" (Northern Kingdom Israelites) spit in Gods eye, and each Kingdom received as its punishment its own separate diaspora.

And you are right, the Northern Kingdom Celts/Europeans/Americans are today the backbone of global Christianity. Please check out the brief ISRAELITE HISTORY by clicking.

98 posted on 10/17/2002 8:58:36 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: ovrtaxt
>Oh, I see. Yes, I agree.

Thanks! Had me confuzzzzed there for a second. {ggg}.

99 posted on 10/17/2002 9:00:05 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
Both the Jewish (Southern Kingdom Jews-to-be 1,500 ~500 years later)
100 posted on 10/17/2002 9:02:58 PM PDT by LostTribe
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