Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Peggy Noonan: Man of Mystery
Opinion Journal ^ | 10/18/2002 | Peggy Noonan

Posted on 10/17/2002 9:04:29 PM PDT by Pokey78

Edited on 04/23/2004 12:04:55 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

John Paul II marked the start of the 25th year of his papacy, now figured to be the fourth longest in history, with a startling announcement in St Peter's Square: He does not intend to resign but will let the Boss decide when he should leave, and by the way he has decided to change the rosary, the daily devotion Catholics have recited for 900 years. Now the pope has many issues vying for his attention, including his decision Thursday for reject the American bishops' plan for dealing with clergy sex abuse, but it is actually hard to imagine a more dramatic and far-reaching decision than the addition of the "luminous mysteries," for it will literally change how millions of ardent believers pray each day for peace.


(Excerpt) Read more at opinionjournal.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; peggynoonanlist
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-70 next last

1 posted on 10/17/2002 9:04:30 PM PDT by Pokey78
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Howlin; Miss Marple; summer; mombonn; Sabertooth; beckett; BlueAngel; JohnHuang2; ...
Pinging the Peggy Noonan list.
2 posted on 10/17/2002 9:05:05 PM PDT by Pokey78
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mo1
Peggy ping.
3 posted on 10/17/2002 9:10:55 PM PDT by glock rocks
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pokey78
Meditating on these mysteries is a powerful way to come to know Jesus intimately. I began years ago thinking of Our Lady and how she would look at Jesus as a baby and a young boy in the Joyful mysteries. I would look at Jesus through a mother's eyes when He suffered and I would look at Jesus as if I were Mary watching her son leave the earth when He ascended into heaven. It was a gradual thing but I came to know Jesus as if He were in the same room with me. And He has never left.
4 posted on 10/17/2002 9:15:52 PM PDT by Slyfox
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pokey78
Peggy's awesome.
5 posted on 10/17/2002 9:17:52 PM PDT by hey papa
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pokey78
No other current writer in any genre consistently moves me like the lovely Mrs. Noonan.

God bless Peggy Noonan.

Can you please add me to the ping list?

6 posted on 10/17/2002 9:25:35 PM PDT by pistola
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: pistola
Sure can!
7 posted on 10/17/2002 9:32:18 PM PDT by Pokey78
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: *Catholic_list; father_elijah; nickcarraway; SMEDLEYBUTLER; Siobhan; Lady In Blue; attagirl
Pinging Catholic List. Good Read.
8 posted on 10/17/2002 9:32:19 PM PDT by sockmonkey
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pokey78
Could you add me too?

Pinging the Peggy Noonan list.

9 posted on 10/17/2002 9:32:23 PM PDT by GOPJ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Pokey78
I never thought of Peggy Noonan as being a man of mystery, but then I led a sheltered life.
10 posted on 10/17/2002 9:34:18 PM PDT by gcruse
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: GOPJ
Will do!
11 posted on 10/17/2002 9:35:48 PM PDT by Pokey78
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Pokey78
Bump for later reading. Thank you for posting this -- can you add me to the PN list?
12 posted on 10/17/2002 9:35:54 PM PDT by american colleen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Pokey78
Many Thanks.
13 posted on 10/17/2002 9:36:47 PM PDT by pistola
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Pokey78
What truly amazes me is that the Pope adds a "mystery" to the rosary, which chants 50 hail mary's, for something even the Catholic Church cannot tell you where this ultimately came from, formalized by Pope Pius V in 1569.

As a former Catholic, all I ask - as I did at 16 (and got no answer) is where is this in the Bible? And why is the focus of my faith not firmly, 100%, always on the One who the whole book is about? And where dows it say anything about Mary being sinless? Or not dying? Or having ANYTHING to do with my fate? And why if anything were we not asked to pray to Christ 50 times?

Some of the same reasons I am no longer a Catholic - I can read the Bible for myself, and belong to a church that meets and governs by the rules I can also read and understand for myself.
14 posted on 10/17/2002 10:01:14 PM PDT by txzman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: pistola
Thanks for the ping Pokey! I'm still struggling with this one...But then I'm still grieving over the the loss of the Mass in Latin...
15 posted on 10/17/2002 10:02:51 PM PDT by lainde
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: glock rocks
You see my problem. I can't concentrate on what we believe we know. You're supposed to contemplate about what happened. And I do, until there's a sound or a thought or a ray of light hits a vase on the window, and then we're off to the races.

LOL ... Peggy you are a treat and I do enjoy reading your articles ..

an old woman with moles and wens and a sharp bent nose???

Thanks for the ping Glock

16 posted on 10/17/2002 10:05:03 PM PDT by Mo1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: Pokey78
One drawback of a society dominated by technology and the mass media is the fact that silence becomes increasingly difficult to achieve.

Ms. Noonan, technology can solve the problem. Check out these noise reduction headphones from Bose. They actually cancel out the sound that's coming from outside the headphones.

18 posted on 10/17/2002 10:36:32 PM PDT by AZLiberty
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pokey78
It was odd to contemplate the joyfuls one day and jump to the sorrowfuls the next; something was missing. That would be what he said and did as an adult. That is what the pope added this week.

I pray the Rosary nearly daily (for Peace, as Mary suggested) and about once a week or so I pray the full 15 mysteries. It has often seemed "odd" to me to make that "jump" as Peggy points out. I am going to enjoy this enhancement fully.

19 posted on 10/17/2002 11:03:50 PM PDT by AFPhys
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sockmonkey
please add me to the catholic list
20 posted on 10/17/2002 11:52:31 PM PDT by fooman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

what Peggy is illustrating here is that, sometime, we lost the foundation of Christian contemplation (called meditation in the East). The lectio divina is being re-born as Centering Prayer, and the Pope is focusing us once again on this almost lost valuable Christian spiritual practice.

I would recommend to Peggy, and every other Christian that they explore The Cloud of Unknowing and Centering Prayer (Fr. Keating) as helpful aids in developing the silence and attention that Peggy talks about her problems with.

She's not alone and we all need simple tools to begin to calm the mental chatter in this noisy modern world.
21 posted on 10/18/2002 3:35:10 AM PDT by D-fendr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: txzman
Most, if not all, of your questions are answered better than I can by the pope in his letter.

It's a long read, but if you wish to hear the answers, read it carefully with an open mind; they're here:

Rosarium Virginis Mariae

22 posted on 10/18/2002 3:41:04 AM PDT by D-fendr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Pokey78
bump
23 posted on 10/18/2002 5:26:13 AM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pokey78
Very interesting. As a non-Catholic I have never really known what the Rosary and all the Hail Mary's were about. Addition of the ministry and teaching of Christ to the contemplation/meditation seems, as Peggy says, like not a new idea but one that should have been there all along and "was lost to time".
24 posted on 10/18/2002 6:50:26 AM PDT by FairWitness
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: FairWitness
Peggy always does a great job of teaching.
25 posted on 10/18/2002 8:54:10 AM PDT by Teacher317
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: sockmonkey; *Catholic_list; father_elijah; nickcarraway; SMEDLEYBUTLER; Siobhan; Lady In Blue; ...
Catholic discussion ping!

Please notify me via Freepmail if you would like to be added to or removed from the Catholic Discussion Ping list.

26 posted on 10/18/2002 8:56:21 AM PDT by Salvation
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: txzman
As a former Catholic, all I ask - as I did at 16 (and got no answer) is where is this in the Bible?

Hmmm . . . praying is quite obviously recommended in the Bible. And the prayers of the Rosary are direct quotations on the Bible. To pray a Hail Mary is to reflect on the Incarnation of Christ. The Incarnation is, along with the Trinity, the central doctrine of Christianity.

And why is the focus of my faith not firmly, 100%, always on the One who the whole book is about?

If you think that the Rosary is not focused on Jesus, then you're not familiar with the Rosary as it was taught to me.

And where dows it say anything about Mary being sinless?

Luke 1:28.

Or not dying?

The Catholic Church does not hold as an article of faith that Mary did not die. Please cite a reference for this assertion.

Or having ANYTHING to do with my fate?

She's the mother of your Savior. I'd say she is inextricably entwined in your eternal salvation.

And why if anything were we not asked to pray to Christ 50 times?

The Church asks us to pray to Christ every day. The Church asks us to call upon His Name every time we are tempted - unless you live in a padded cell, that must be hundreds of times each day for a normal person. The Church asks us to read the Gospels every day. The Church asks us to imitate Him every day. Apparently you've never read any Catholic catechism ever in your entire life, or you'd know that pretty well. I find it hard to believe you've ever been to a Mass.

Some of the same reasons I am no longer a Catholic - I can read the Bible for myself, and belong to a church that meets and governs by the rules I can also read and understand for myself.

Why do you take the Bible as your only source of religious authority? If you can understand the rules so plainly, why does every Protestant denomination interpret the rules differently? Where did you learn to read Hebrew and Greek so well that you are able to so authoritatively read the Bible for yourself, instead of taking some human being's translation for granted?

27 posted on 10/18/2002 9:13:21 AM PDT by wideawake
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: txzman
What truly amazes me is that the Pope adds a "mystery" to the rosary

Five Mysteries of Light that deal with the life of Jesus Christ.

28 posted on 10/18/2002 9:19:00 AM PDT by Salvation
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: txzman
Posted on Rosarium

The Mysteries of Light

21. Moving on from the infancy and the hidden life in Nazareth to the public life of Jesus, our contemplation brings us to those mysteries which may be called in a special way "mysteries of light". Certainly the whole mystery of Christ is a mystery of light. He is the "light of the world" (Jn 8:12). Yet this truth emerges in a special way during the years of his public life, when he proclaims the Gospel of the Kingdom. In proposing to the Christian community five significant moments – "luminous" mysteries – during this phase of Christ's life, I think that the following can be fittingly singled out:

(1) his Baptism in the Jordan,
(2) his self-manifestation at the wedding of Cana,
(3) his proclamation of the Kingdom of God, with his call to conversion,
(4) his Transfiguration,
and finally,
(5) his institution of the Eucharist, as the sacramental expression of the Paschal Mystery.

He also suggests that because Saturday is already a day associated with Marian devotion, moving the Joyful mysteries to Saturday would be fitting, freeing up Thursday for the Mysteries of Light. That would make the Rosary "calendar" as follows:

Sunday: Glorious
Monday: Joyful
Tuesday: Sorrowful
Wednesday: Glorius
Thursday: Luminous
Friday: Sorrowful
Saturday: Joyful

"According to current practice, Monday and Thursday are dedicated to the "joyful mysteries", Tuesday and Thursday (sic - Friday) to the "sorrowful mysteries", and Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday to the "glorious mysteries". Where might the "mysteries of light" be inserted? If we consider that the "glorious mysteries" are said on both Saturday and Sunday, and that Saturday has always had a special Marian flavour, the second weekly meditation on the "joyful mysteries", mysteries in which Mary's presence is especially pronounced, could be moved to Saturday. Thursday would then be free for meditating on the "mysteries of light".

37 posted on 10/16/02 4:33 PM Pacific by Gophack

BTW, you are always welcome to come home to the Catholic Church.

29 posted on 10/18/2002 9:23:02 AM PDT by Salvation
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: txzman
As a former Catholic, all I ask - as I did at 16 (and got no answer) is where is this in the Bible?

Who says everything having to do with our Faith must be found in the pages of the Bible? The Catholic Church sanctioned the Canon of Athanasius some 400 years after the death of our Lord...how did those people justify anything they thought, said or did without the Bible to instruct them?

And as to the mysteries themselves...they are all scriptural with the exception of the Assumption and the Coronation of the BVM as Queen of Heaven. Those events are deeply held and ancient traditions of the Church which predate the Bible by hundreds of years.

Now as for your question about why we're not saying 50 prayers to Christ...I can only tell you that we are. As Peggy says in her article the Rosary is a very Christocentric. All of the mysteries center on Our Lord and we only praise Mary because she was the mother of Our Lord, and by praising her we praise Our Lord. Her great Fiat at the Annunciation allowed the Incarnation to occur. her Fiat was voluntary and of her own free will, she said "Yes, Let it be done unto me as the Lord wills" and in doing so provided the perfect model of a Christian.

30 posted on 10/18/2002 10:01:26 AM PDT by pgkdan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: pgkdan
Yes, Let it be done unto me as the Lord wills"</>

a Perfection expression of being "born again,"no? Msry, though sinless, could not enter the kingdom of heaven unless HE came. The moment she opened to the door to Him, He opened the door to heaven for her. She had only to follow.

31 posted on 10/18/2002 10:13:50 AM PDT by RobbyS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Pokey78
Pokey, please add me to the Peggy Noonan list! Thanks! FS
32 posted on 10/18/2002 10:17:10 AM PDT by Forgiven_Sinner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Pokey78
The third joyful mystery is the birth of Christ in a manger. It's not hard to imagine this. It's hard to control one's imaginings. I imagine the trek to the manger, the disheartened young husband, the sound of the eating area of the inn as they trudge on, hungry and alone. And then a car alarm goes off. And suddenly I'm wondering: Did she have a hard labor? <> Nope. Pain during labor is a consequence of original sin.Mary was preserved from the consequences fo Orioginal sin, ergo....<>Did God want her to know from the beginning that her joy would be ever accompanied by pain? Did she weep him into the world? Maybe it was an easy birth. <> He passed through Mary as He passed through the locked doors of the Upper Room<> God knew she was barely more than a child, with a young husband and no help, just the two of them in the cold in a hut on a hill.
33 posted on 10/18/2002 10:23:10 AM PDT by Catholicguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pokey78
That reminded me of something. In the unofficial but ever-interesting prophecies of St. Malachy, mystic of the Middle Ages, each coming pope is named with a phrase that seems to denote his work.

<> I have that book at home. If I recall correctly, after JPII, there are only two more to follow - including Peter the Second, the Last Pope.<>

34 posted on 10/18/2002 10:24:51 AM PDT by Catholicguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: txzman
Wonder where your authority would have come from before the Church had the Bible? By the way, the Catholic Church never said Mary did not die. They say she was assuned into Heaven after death which is an ancient tradition of Christ's Church.
35 posted on 10/18/2002 10:27:42 AM PDT by Rushian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: sockmonkey
Please add me to the Catholic ping list.
36 posted on 10/18/2002 10:32:20 AM PDT by Junior
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: gcruse
I never thought of Peggy Noonan as being a man of mystery, but then I led a sheltered life.

<> "Man" is a synecdoche. Now that you no longer lead a sheletered life, you have an opportunity to acquire some knowledge;)<>

37 posted on 10/18/2002 10:34:32 AM PDT by Catholicguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

bttt
38 posted on 10/18/2002 10:35:51 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pokey78
Beautiful. Thank you for posting this.
39 posted on 10/18/2002 12:29:55 PM PDT by Eala
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Forgiven_Sinner
Done.
40 posted on 10/18/2002 12:58:03 PM PDT by Pokey78
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: pgkdan
And as to the mysteries themselves...they are all scriptural with the exception of the Assumption and the Coronation of the BVM as Queen of Heaven.

Exceptions big enough to drive a semi through! "Queen of Heaven" is a title the ancients assigned to the primodial mother goddesses -- Cybele, Ashteroth, etc. Something about cosmic momism violates (and perverts) the design specifications of the man/God relationship. Induces a cosmic oedipus complex. Warps the role of sexuality, and a man's understanding of his legitimate masculinity.

Devotees of Cybele would, when seized by a religious ecstasy during the pagents commemorating that apparition of the Queen of Heaven, hack off their genitals, hurl them into the mother goddess's temple, put on new white linen robes, and join the parade. They sacrificed their sexuality to fructify mother earth.

Modern celebates (yes, that is a cognate word, derived from the name of that queen of heaven) equate purity with asexuality. They sacrifice the normal and God-ordained default setting of the human race (paired) in order to fructify the aims of Mother Church. Normal sexuality is equated with a rejection of the spiritual. (And this precious summons to maturity, to life, to family formation pops up in some shockingly pervserse ways when denied.)

41 posted on 10/18/2002 1:30:09 PM PDT by TomSmedley
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: TomSmedley
You seem to have some issues with your mother...get some help.
42 posted on 10/18/2002 3:21:31 PM PDT by pgkdan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
Thank you for the ping
43 posted on 10/18/2002 4:50:10 PM PDT by firewalk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: wideawake
For what it is worth -- As a Protestant and someone who has studied the Bible myself, you gave some very good answers. God bless you.
44 posted on 10/18/2002 4:59:55 PM PDT by NEWwoman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: TomSmedley
goddesses,mother earth, sacrifice the normal?---sounds like witchcraft to me...

45 posted on 10/18/2002 5:24:27 PM PDT by Irisshlass
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: TomSmedley
<> LMAO. Thank you. I enjoyed that. Did you get your "information" from Carlos Casteneda, The Golden Bough, or the writings of Mr. Campbell? All three, plus Baba Ram Dass? Put out that joint, turn off the Lava Lamp, take "Eat a Peach" off of the turntable and go for a hike in the mountains to clear your head.<>
46 posted on 10/19/2002 5:36:09 AM PDT by Catholicguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: D-fendr
http://www.dotm.org/ctrprayjonnette.htm

Be careful, Centering Prayer is OFTEN more "New Age" than Christian.
47 posted on 10/19/2002 10:53:53 AM PDT by Notwithstanding
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: TomSmedley
Apparently you have never read Revelation's description of the woman in heaven (who bears a child described in Christ-like tesm) who is clothed with the sun and wears a crown of stars....a biblical cosmic mom indeed....
48 posted on 10/19/2002 10:57:34 AM PDT by Notwithstanding
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: TomSmedley; pgkdan
You need to do a little more research.

(1) The word celibate does not derive from Cybele. It derives from the word celebs which is a Latin word used to describe an animal that has not been husbanded. The word celebs was already a well-established word in the Latin vocabulary before the worship of Cybele, a foreign goddess, was imported to Rome from Greek-speaking regions. It should be obvious that the root of celibate is celib/celeb and not cybel - the consonants are transposed. That's like saying the word marketing is derived from the word mattock because the two have the same consonants, even though they're transposed.

(2) The Greek word for celibate is anygynos which bears absolutely no relation to the word Cybele. You're mixing Latin and Greek to concoct a false etymology.

(3) Cybele was not known either to her Greek or Roman devotees as the "Queen of Heaven". Her epithet was "Great Mother". I would point out that the Litany of the Blessed Virgin, which is a list of the official titles given to Mary going back to the Roman era, does not include that title although it was much in vogue as a title for Cybele-type goddesses. Why? Because Christians then as well as Christians now know the difference between a fake goddess and a real saint.

(4) Even if your position was historically or etymologically accurate (and it is actually woefully inaccurate) it is logically barren. The same phrases we both apply to Jesus: Lord, Savior, King of Kings, Anointed One (i.e. Christ) were applied to various pagan godlets like Apollo, Osiris, Adonis, Dionysus etc. The fact that others have, in the past, applied to pagan deities the titles which rightfully belong to Jesus alone does not mean that worship of Christ is the same thing as belonging to a pagan fertility cult.

Likewise, venerating Jesus' mother as a saint and applying to her titles of which she is worthy - most preeminently that of Theotokos or mother of God - does not mean that Christians paying their due respect to the mother of their Lord are imitating pagan cults either.

(5) Finally, St. Paul calls the practice of celibacy praiseworthy and desirable and chose it for himself. If celibacy was pleasing to God in St. Paul as Scripture records, then the pursuit of that same Biblical commitment today is also pleasing. Casting aspersions on those who strive to live according to that Scriptural counsel and painting them as cultists is despicable, unBiblical and unChristian.

49 posted on 10/19/2002 5:44:29 PM PDT by wideawake
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Pokey78
Peggy is wonderful, just plain and simple. I am not Catholic, but I will read anything this woman writes. It was really interesting, because I had no idea what the stations of the Rosery were about. Learn something everyday.
50 posted on 10/19/2002 6:01:43 PM PDT by ladyinred
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-70 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson