Shell Casing Not Likely Evidence in Shootings (7.62mm, not .233)

Washington Post ^ | October 19, 2002 | Carol Morello and Allan Lengel

[John H K]

...The casing, found by a truck rental company and turned over to police on Friday, was for a 7.62 mm bullet, which is the equivalent of about .30 caliber, the sources said. In 12 shooting incidents attributed to the sniper in which nine people have been slain and two wounded since Oct. 2, authorities have said .223-caliber bullets have been used. Those are significantly smaller than .30 caliber....

[John H K]

Well, I guess people can start spinning elaborate "sabot" theories; but the truck seems pretty irrelevant.

[johnb838]

Seven-point-six-two-millimeter-full-metal-jacket-sir bump

[El Sordo]

Is doesn't seem too outlandish that a .223 could have been sabotted into a .30.

Anyone know if a sabot requires any different seating or crimping in the case that might give it away?

[LoneRangerMassachusetts]

We waited a day to find out the shell was for a 7.62 round? We are never going to catch anyone if seeing the difference between a 0.223 caliber and a 0.306 takes a day.

[SolitaryMan]

I thought 7.62 = .308 and 5.56 = .223?

[absalom01]

For all practical purposes, yes.  There are some subtle, but important differences, though. (I suspect the '.306' above was simply a typo.)

[dighton]

Disquieting to say the least. A spent 7.62 x whatever cartridge does not look like a spent 5.56.

Well, I guess people can start spinning elaborate "sabot" theories ...

Note to anyone so tempted: if the recovered bullets have striations, best to find another theory.

[xm177e2]

It is .308. Thirty-aught-six refers to ".30 caliber, year 1906," and ".30 caliber" is .308. I think. I'm not super sure, though...

[xm177e2]

How do you know they didn't fire it once first into a bullet trap to produce striations, and THEN use it in a sabot? That would be fiendishly clever! </sarcasm>

[xm177e2]

Is doesn't seem too outlandish that a .223 could have been sabotted into a .30.

But what would be the advantage of that (aside from the higher velocity possible)?

[ErnBatavia]

I'm on the sidelines here, because it's been a loooong time.....but a 7.62mm is what I had in the USMC; the entire bullet is 3 to 4 inches long. A .223 is reported to be in the size range of a .22 caliber peashooter. Am I missing something?

[Steve Eisenberg]

We waited a day to find out the shell was for a 7.62 round? We are never going to catch anyone if seeing the difference between a 0.223 caliber and a 0.306 takes a day.

Right. And this story appears to me to be an exclusive to the Washington Post, with the AP still saying that the extensive scientific study of the shell casing (measure it with a good ruler?) won't be in until Monday. So assuming that the Post story is true, which is a pretty good assumption, then the investigation is not only barely competent but also plagued by insider leaks. I'd like to believe it's all a clever media campaign designed to spook the shooter(s), but it seems more likely that there's a competence gap somewhere.

[struwwelpeter]

Lots of different 7.62 - different ones for Kalashnikovs, Dragunovs, and M-14s. Heck, there's even a pistol in 7.62mm.

Discerning the difference takes about, oh, a second or two.

[The KG9 Kid]

That's an interesting idea, but a few things are problematic with it:

1. They might be very hard to find, but the sabot pieces would be left behind at the scenes of the shootings somewhere just ahead of the shooter's position. I think that the investigators that are getting cadets to police the area would have come up with a few sabots by now if your theory is true -- assuming they're smart enough to know to look for them.

2. Small rifle bullets don't survive bullet traps well, even the water tank kind. If they do survive, they might not be very reloadable. If they are in enough shape to reload, they wouldn't be very accurate. Not accurate enough to hit someone in the head at the ranges this sniper is probably firing from.

Clever of you, though.

[dighton]

How do you know they didn't fire it once first into a bullet trap to produce striations, and THEN use it in a sabot? That would be fiendishly clever!

Really and truly, I was hoping someone would pursue the sabot thing (even in jest, as you did) to that point. There's at least one big practical objection, which I trust you and other knowledgable FReepers will point out.

Small hint, which won't need: why would someone use a sabot for criminal purposes?

[JRandomFreeper]

Per the Sierra Reloading Manual, the .223 Remington is overall length 2.260 inches.

/john

[dighton]

Uh, "Small hint, which YOU won't need."

[dighton]

Those objections too. Thanks.

[Grut]

...and ".30 caliber" is .308. I think. I'm not super sure, though...

True enough. The .30 calibre barrel is .300 inches inside diameter before the rifling grooves (.004 inches deep on each side) are cut. The bullet is .308 inches in diameter so it completely fills the barrel and the rifling grooves.

[jd777]

Doesn't the Ak-47 shoot 7.62mm?