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Why Men Won't Commit: Men's Atitudes About Sex, Dating and Marriage
National Marriage Project (Rutgers University) ^ | 2002 | Barbara Dafoe Whitehead and David Popenoe

Posted on 10/22/2002 11:24:51 AM PDT by shrinkermd

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"According to Lasch-Quinn, the 1960s' 'therapeutic sensibility' - with its premium on 'individual identity, emotional expression, and an immediate, superficial sense of wellbeing' - has now become the 'dominant political theme of the new millennium'."

If the above is true, it goes a long ways in explaining the lengthy discussion held above.

Rutgers does a masterful job on this and other issues. Their statistics and writing are clear and to the point. If you hit the URL above you will find additional data and conclusions about this topic. A job well done!

1 posted on 10/22/2002 11:24:51 AM PDT by shrinkermd
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To: shrinkermd
Another reason might be that the two words "I do" is the longest sentence known to man.
2 posted on 10/22/2002 11:36:22 AM PDT by SGCOS
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To: shrinkermd
This is an incredible piece of work which I intend to share with a number of people. Thanks for the post.
3 posted on 10/22/2002 11:36:32 AM PDT by FryingPan101
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To: shrinkermd
I have no problem with commitment, I think.
4 posted on 10/22/2002 11:40:39 AM PDT by Blue Screen of Death
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To: shrinkermd
Sounds like your basic bovine purchase verses free dairy products issue.

AKA: Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?

Not that I'm saying Mrs Neuton is a cow mind you.

5 posted on 10/22/2002 11:45:49 AM PDT by MrNeutron1962
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To: shrinkermd
I'm a little confused about the fun, exciting bachelor life these researchers refer to. Many of my single male friends find that most evenings they're cozying up to the TV with a can of tuna for dinner and a bottle of Jack Daniels to wash it down.
6 posted on 10/22/2002 11:47:42 AM PDT by laurav
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To: shrinkermd
As for myself I married Miss Right.

Now 28 years later I find out her first name is Always.

7 posted on 10/22/2002 11:50:17 AM PDT by N. Theknow
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To: laurav
Marriage is a 50/50 proposition for a man: 50% chance you lose 50% of your stuff, minus lawyer's fees of course.
8 posted on 10/22/2002 11:52:41 AM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: shrinkermd
It's probably because for the last 30 years the media has been obsessed with characterizing men as "afraid of commitment" and have convinced us that's how it's supposed to be, it's become part of our gender role.
9 posted on 10/22/2002 11:55:00 AM PDT by discostu
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To: MrNeutron1962
Yep. Men can achieve their primary objective without marriage. How stupid can women be?
10 posted on 10/22/2002 11:55:39 AM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: laurav
Many of my single male friends find that most evenings they're cozying up to the TV with a can of tuna for dinner and a bottle of Jack Daniels to wash it down.

You don't know the females I know ! Who needs to put thier lifes savings at risk, marriage is a stacked deck against males, especially when kids are involved.
11 posted on 10/22/2002 12:01:02 PM PDT by John Lenin
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To: shrinkermd
This whole topic must be considered in the light of increased health and life expectancy. Isn't a 25-year-old woman now as healthy and having as long an expected remaining lifetime as an 18-year-old did in 1950?

And of course the problem of divorce and children comes into play. People get attached to dogs, never mind children--and if the other person can call things off and take the children--and even move out of state . . .

Throw in child support to boot, and becoming a father is trusting your wife. A lot. So should I be eager to see my son get married? I'm thinking, I'm thinking!


12 posted on 10/22/2002 12:02:12 PM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion
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To: shrinkermd
Ill tell you why men dont want to commit.

Because we dont want to give away half of our stuff when the relationship goes sour. :-)

13 posted on 10/22/2002 12:04:25 PM PDT by Enemy Of The State
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To: HumanaeVitae
agreed!

Joke:

Marriage is like a tornado...In the begining there is a lot of sucking and blowing but in the end someone always loses their house.

14 posted on 10/22/2002 12:05:35 PM PDT by Enemy Of The State
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To: shrinkermd
Q.: Why do men die before their wives?

A.: Because they want to!
15 posted on 10/22/2002 12:12:20 PM PDT by HEY4QDEMS
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Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

To: anniegetyourgun
lets translate some some terms:

1. They can get sex without marriage more easily than in times past "Modern women are easy."


2. They can enjoy the benefits of having a wife by cohabiting rather than marrying. "My live in girlfriend will do the laundry and clean the apartment."


3. They want to avoid divorce and its financial risks "Modern women don't respect marriage why should I?"


4. They want to wait until they are older to have children
"Children are expensive."

5. They fear that marriage will require too many changes and compromises "Modern women are nags who will nit pick my life and desires but insiste I be supportive of their mood swings."


6. They are waiting for the perfect soul mate and she hasn’t yet appeared
"So many women to test drive."

7. They face few social pressures to marry
"Sex, is available. My live in does the cleaning"

8. They are reluctant to marry a woman who already has children "Men want to raise their own children, not her and some other idiots mistakes."


9. They want to own a house before they get a wife
"Have a house before marriage as protection in case of divorce. My house my rules"

10. They want to enjoy single life as long as they can
"Enjoy single life as long as you want. There is noooo rush it ends when you feeeeel like it."

Bottom line:
Men reap benefits of not committing from women's movement. Modern women repel men from commitment. Takes two to tango even if it is for one dance.
17 posted on 10/22/2002 12:16:14 PM PDT by longtermmemmory
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To: conservatism_IS_compassion
I am curious to see what the end result is going to be with these career women who realize they can't have kids so late in life. (I am referencing the article that came out a while ago that recomended giving birth before 30)

In all of this, I see a definite lack of trust on both sides. A lack with good reason.
18 posted on 10/22/2002 12:20:05 PM PDT by longtermmemmory
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To: shrinkermd
I am a 53 year old professional, divorced since 1981, no dependents. Near as I can tell, modern woman's idea of Mr. Right is unemployed, alcoholic, addicted to cocaine, out on parole, married to someone else, that beats them up.
19 posted on 10/22/2002 12:29:00 PM PDT by Jumpmaster
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To: shrinkermd
..men’s reluctance to marry makes it harder for peer women who are in their prime marrying years to achieve their desired life goal. As one man put it, "That’s their issue."

Well, at least the women have their career. Or maybe they could just suck it up and do the family thing by themselves... You reap what you sow, don't you know...

20 posted on 10/22/2002 12:29:12 PM PDT by Nonstatist
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To: shrinkermd
6. They are waiting for the perfect soul mate and she hasn’t yet appeared

Yeah. That's it.

This guy confuses me. He's studied men's reasons for not commiting, but this statement makes me wonder how many men he actually knows.

21 posted on 10/22/2002 12:30:03 PM PDT by sharktrager
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To: sharktrager
They are waiting for the perfect soul mate and she hasn’t yet appeared

The perfect soul mate is one who will stay out of your hair and take care of the kids and keep the house clean and not embarass you in public and keep herself trim.. They're out there, only I think they mostly live on other planets. But that doesn't mean we can't shop around for her.

22 posted on 10/22/2002 12:37:27 PM PDT by Nonstatist
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#11 Liberals have trained women that all men are rapists an d any man who talks to you only wants to sleep with you.
23 posted on 10/22/2002 12:37:41 PM PDT by KneelBeforeZod
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To: shrinkermd
8. They are reluctant to marry a woman who already has children

Maybe it directly relates to #1?

1. They can get sex without marriage more easily than in times past

24 posted on 10/22/2002 12:39:16 PM PDT by Darth Dan
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To: Dark Wing
bookmark
25 posted on 10/22/2002 12:44:15 PM PDT by Dark Wing
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To: sharktrager
When I was young, I can't remember any guysI knew stating they were waiting for their soulmate.
Young men and women think everyone their "in love with" is their soulmate.
Most guys I knew were looking for the "hottest looking babe" they could find.
Wouldn't want your friends giving you hell for marrying a dog.
26 posted on 10/22/2002 12:48:08 PM PDT by philetus
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To: N. Theknow
Son: Dad, is it true in Africa men don't know who their wives are before they get married?
Father: That's true in all countries, son.
27 posted on 10/22/2002 12:49:15 PM PDT by dyed_in_the_wool
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To: KneelBeforeZod
sounds like someone got rejected and is blaming liberals.
28 posted on 10/22/2002 12:53:31 PM PDT by RolandBurnam
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To: shrinkermd
This survey is being played out in my own home. My 15 yo son has already said that marriage can wait, and wait, and wait. He looks ahead to his 30's and still doesn't see marriage there for him. (Wierd kid. When I was his age, I looked ahead to "Saturday".) He's so busy being an all-American kid (baseball, Motorcycles, camping, shooting, water recreation, etc.), he doesn't have time to waste on girls.

My 13 yo old daughter, on the other hand, has just discovered babies. Everyone's babies. Her teachers and church counselors are in their late teens and early twenties, are marrying and having kids. That "culture" has her infatuated with the lives of these healthy young adults (who DO wait until after marriage for sex). A year or so ago, she said she'd adopt..no way was she going to waste her athletic body on babies. Now.. she's changing.

So, if I read this correctly, my daughter and her friends are growing up, going to college, preparing themselves for lives as Mom's or careers, while my son and his buddies are going to disappoint them. They're having too much fun to get saddled down with kids.

29 posted on 10/22/2002 12:56:51 PM PDT by Steel and Fire and Stone
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To: Steel and Fire and Stone
I think #3 and #10 are pretty important ones :)

I do think they might have left one thing out. Most of us non-committal types feel that when we say "I do", she will say "You DID!".

30 posted on 10/22/2002 1:01:56 PM PDT by Outraged At FLA
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To: longtermmemmory; BigWaveBetty; pubmom; Endeavor

31 posted on 10/22/2002 1:02:17 PM PDT by Hillary's Lovely Legs
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To: conservatism_IS_compassion
But her eggs would still be getting old!!!
32 posted on 10/22/2002 1:09:16 PM PDT by workinggirl
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To: longtermmemmory
Marry for love? What romantic rubbish! If I can find a decent woman willing to be a proper wife, then sentimentality is irrelevant.
33 posted on 10/22/2002 1:10:22 PM PDT by Loyalist
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To: All
The comments are fascinating. One thing the authors did not consider was intelligence. In 1997 Charles Murray wrote an article for a UK paper (Sunday Times 25 May 1997) in respect to this. What he did first was gather a population to study.

"A very large database in the United States contains information about several thousand sibling pairs who have been followed since 1979. To make the analysis as unambiguous as possible, I have limited my sample to brothers and sisters whose parents are in the top 75 per cent of American earners, with a family income in 1978 averaging £40,000 (in today's money).

Families living in poverty, or even close to it, have been excluded. The parents in my sample also stayed together for at least the first seven years of the younger sibling's life.

Each pair consists of one sibling with an IQ in the normal range of 90-110 ,a range that includes 50% of the population. I will call this group the normals. The second sibling in each pair had an IQ either higher than 110, putting him in the top quartile of intelligence (the bright) or lower than 90, putting him in the bottom quartile (the dull). These constraints produced a sample of 710 pairs."

The results appropriate to this discussion were:

"The differences among the siblings go far beyond income. Marriage and children offer the most vivid example. Similar proportions of siblings married, whether normal, bright or dull - but the divorce rate was markedly higher among the dull than among the normal or bright, even after taking length of marriage into account. Demographers will find it gloomily interesting that the average age at which women had their first birth was almost four years younger for the dull siblings than for the bright ones, while the number of children born to dull women averaged 1.9, half a child more than for either the normal or the bright. Most striking of all were the different illegitimacy rates. Of all the first-born children of the normals, 21% were born out of wedlock , about a third lower than the figure for the United States as a whole, presumably reflecting the advantaged backgrounds from which the sibling sample was drawn. Their bright siblings were much lower still, with less than 10% of their babies born illegitimate. Meanwhile, 45% of the first-born of the dull siblings were born outside of marriage."

34 posted on 10/22/2002 1:11:42 PM PDT by shrinkermd
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To: shrinkermd
Yeah, dumb women are easier heh.. :P
35 posted on 10/22/2002 1:16:35 PM PDT by Outraged At FLA
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To: philetus
When I was "young" (high school grad, '74), girls were playing the field, being liberal feminists. By the time I was 28 yrs., I still hadn't married or even come close to finding a date with a potential "Ms. Right". I was a young Navy Lieutenant, in pretty good shape, not a GQ type, but I got some looks. It was almost funny .. I was stationed in the San Francisco area after my first sea tour, and I'd go to public places "looking" for women. I couldn't attract attention. Women were just not interested. I couldn't figure it out. Years later, a buddy told me "idiot.. what did you expect?! In the early 1980's, the only guys who wore short hair and tight, trendy clothes in that region were GAY!!! How were the girls supposed to know you were different?!" Hmmm.. GULP!

Anyway, I recently divorced buddy of my from back in College and I were commiserating over a beer about ten years back. We both noticed something. In our late 30's, we found that suddenly we had women of our age group taking an "interest" in us. (Though he was divorced, I was married, wasn't happy with some things.. O.K., I was STUPID, but we won't go into that discussion. Let's just say... I was aware of women in my surroundings). Anyway, the upshot of the story is that we just laughed at all the women we knew who wouldn't give us a second glance back when we were 21, women didn't marry and "lived with" guys. They were "babe's" back then, but were now lonely in their late 30's. On the other hand, my buddy had all the gorgeous, educated young women he wanted (to date), and they were in their late 20's. (He would have been married forever, but his wife decided to relieve her teens... chased some old boyfrieds, abandoned the family, etc.. This guy was a saint.)

We concluded our discussion by laughing until we put ourselves on the floor (ok, after about 3 beers). These women we grew up with had bought the whole feminist career-free-to-be-me-garbage hook, line, and sinker, while the guys in my generation couldn't find a women who wanted to marry and raise kids. Now that these women were in their late 30's, they were panicing. They realized that they'd given away their best years to dozens of losers, and had little left to offer a "family man". What comes around goes around...

I expect that's still happening today, although, from what I see working with young teens today, young women are much more focused on a future including a family life. Which is good, since my young teenage kids face growing up in the tough world created by these left-wing-sixty-hippies.

36 posted on 10/22/2002 1:16:55 PM PDT by Steel and Fire and Stone
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To: Steel and Fire and Stone
Both my sons recently got engaged after dating the same young women for 10 years a piece. The 30 year old who is marrying his college sweetheart wanted to have it all first...job,house new car, boat and some financial security. The 27 year old is marrying his high school sweetheart. They basically waited til she finished law school. Never any doubt in his mind that he would marry her just the when. Two weddings next September, 3 weeks apart. Glad they're male children.
37 posted on 10/22/2002 1:21:29 PM PDT by surrey
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To: philetus
fat women are like scooters. Fun to ride but you will get teased if your friends see you with one.
38 posted on 10/22/2002 1:22:32 PM PDT by longtermmemmory
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To: anniegetyourgun
Men can achieve their primary objective without marriage. How stupid can women be?

That's pretty true biologically. Sex does drive guys emotions and motives. It's the way we're built. However, that's only half the equation. A roommate is not a wife, even if she's a very "accommodating" roommate. You can't make a "home" with a roommate. You need the defined and understood continuity that comes with marriage.

Believe it or not, the best way for a women to corral a reluctant-to-commit guy is to get him involved with kids (niece, nephews, Little League, etc.). He'll either realize what the secret ingredient to "home" is (wive+kids), and want some of that immediately, or he'll flee like a scalded dog. Which is OK, because women shouldn't date scalded dogs.

39 posted on 10/22/2002 1:31:00 PM PDT by Steel and Fire and Stone
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To: surrey
Enjoy the grandchildren!

FReegards...SFS

40 posted on 10/22/2002 1:34:12 PM PDT by Steel and Fire and Stone
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To: shrinkermd
10. They want to enjoy single life as long as they can.

Running and ducking.......heheheheheh

41 posted on 10/22/2002 1:34:15 PM PDT by glasseye
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To: John Lenin
I thought you were dead.
42 posted on 10/22/2002 1:48:24 PM PDT by Endeavor
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To: shrinkermd
Category 6 describes me.

But at 37, I realize I am not going to find that soulmate. Dating in A.D. 2002 is an exercise in frustration and humiliation. From this and other like threads, I know that I'll have a lot of other singles for company in the retirement home that lays in my future.

43 posted on 10/22/2002 1:48:31 PM PDT by KoestlersRedFiat
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To: Loyalist
Don't hold your breath.
44 posted on 10/22/2002 1:51:33 PM PDT by Endeavor
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To: Endeavor
I thought you were dead.

Is that your best comeback ? You will have to do better than that.
45 posted on 10/22/2002 1:51:39 PM PDT by John Lenin
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To: Steel and Fire and Stone
Thats manure, respectfully I disagree. The problem with your theory is will and does come across as manipulation or trickery. Thankfully men have become more aware of such manuvers. You don't need to point that out, we know it already.

I had a girlfriend try that before I knew her enough. Considering the sneakiness of the stunt. (I did discuss it with her and she did admit why we were suddenly spending time with family and people with kids) Less tricker more communication. (ie he wants intimacy every day she's a once a week gal)

Men know what they want beyond just sex. Women have forgotten how to be women. Now men and women are paying the price for that ignorance.
46 posted on 10/22/2002 1:52:36 PM PDT by longtermmemmory
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To: shrinkermd; dd5339; cavtrooper21
Thank God that not ALL men in this country are as vapid as these 60 examples!
47 posted on 10/22/2002 1:56:48 PM PDT by Vic3O3
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To: Vic3O3
Thank God that not ALL men in this country are as vapid as these 60 examples!

Thats why half my friends are divorced and miserable about paying alimony and not being able to see their kids. Most of them remind me how lucky I am that I can come and go as I please, date who I want and not get the bill every month. I didn't make the rules, I just play them to my advantage.
48 posted on 10/22/2002 2:00:11 PM PDT by John Lenin
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To: shrinkermd
Marriage will eventually be the refuge of those who can't get sex any other way.


BUMP

49 posted on 10/22/2002 2:10:08 PM PDT by tm22721
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To: shrinkermd
Why this man won't commit is simple,THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS LOVE!
50 posted on 10/22/2002 2:11:39 PM PDT by INSENSITIVE GUY
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