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Why Men Won't Commit: Men's Atitudes About Sex, Dating and Marriage
National Marriage Project (Rutgers University) ^ | 2002 | Barbara Dafoe Whitehead and David Popenoe

Posted on 10/22/2002 11:24:51 AM PDT by shrinkermd

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To: home educate
I don't even know where to start on this. I could, and have, written hundreds of pages on it. This: --------------------------

Moreover, the sexual revolution and the trend toward cohabitation offer them some of the benefits of marriage without its obligations.

--------------------------

Encodes an attitude human relationships and an shallowness. There is an emphasis on sexual satisfaction here. A developed relationships between a man and woman is more than that. It also helps if you really like each other and are close companions. That is what I see going down the drain in contemporary patterns.

There are also things you don't get from another person in less than a permanant committed relationship that provides confidence in the nature of a relationship. Living together doesn't provide that confidence. It is underwritten by an unspoken sense of temporarity or condition.

51 posted on 10/22/2002 2:29:28 PM PDT by RLK
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To: longtermmemmory
In all of this, I see a definite lack of trust on both sides. A lack with good reason.

----------------------

What reason is there for two people who have been engaging in turnstyle relationships and sex lives to suddenly trust each other. Whether one is that way from the begiining, or is forced to develop it, a serious degree of superficiality and callousness is integral to that pattern. That isn't anything I would personally want to marry.

52 posted on 10/22/2002 2:34:32 PM PDT by RLK
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To: tm22721
Right NOW, Marriage is only for those who want to have children.

as for marriage and sex:

Marriage will be for those who can not get enough sex with each other and do not want to have sex with anyone else.

of course I have a friend who found the solution to his soulmate woes. He mail ordered a bride from abroad. After going there to meet her, they found they were compatable and they married. Its been six years. First kid is on the way.

As for those women who would criticise men who do not want to marry the "modern" woman, are you threatened by men who know what they want and that does not include you?
53 posted on 10/22/2002 2:45:28 PM PDT by longtermmemmory
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To: RLK
"What reason is there for two people who have been engaging in turnstyle relationships and sex lives to suddenly trust each other. Whether one is that way from the begiining, or is forced to develop it, a serious degree of superficiality and callousness is integral to that pattern. That isn't anything I would personally want to marry. "

Thats a great way to put the situation. Since society has reduce marriage to a more complicated form of the turnstyle sex relationship why have it. Pehaps men and women need to get back into the idea of good sex does occur in marriage. Serious sex for a serious relationship?

ok seriously, you put it very well.
54 posted on 10/22/2002 2:54:16 PM PDT by longtermmemmory
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To: laurav
"I'm a little confused about the fun, exciting bachelor life these researchers refer to. Many of my single male friends find that most evenings they're cozying up to the TV with a can of tuna for dinner and a bottle of Jack Daniels to wash it down."

Agreed. Speaking as a divorced male, single for some time now, the "Great Single Life" is definitely not My preference. Most evenings are spent in front of the computer teaching Myself more and more things, and a can of Chunky Soup or a TV dinner with some cheap beer to wash it down with.

Perhaps some observatios are in order here. One being that the article is entirely correct that the ease of divorce is a very serious impediment to the intent of marriage in this day and age -and moreso if children are involved. I can name you friend after friend that has literally lost it all because there was a major row and the woman did not even consider patching things up to make the relationship work out. Indeed, why should she? Most times she first drained the bank accounts and maxed out the credit cards, then used the system to get half of everything and alienate the children. Why shouldn't men be unwilling to take that kind of risk?

Also remember the truism: "Men marry women for who they are. Women marry men for what they CAN be". I have had many women admit this to Me over the years. Take it from Me: men do not WANT to be changed, and we want to live with the woman we fell in love with, not the one who enjoys attempting to manipulate us while at the same time expecting us to support their every changing need and moods.

I also agree with the opinion expressed above that most men do not want to have to raise some other male's children, both because of the immediate financial demands, and because you are essentially supporting someone's indescretions -and mistakes. Not to mention the difficulty of allowing for some strange male to constantly generate tension in the relationship.

Another amusing observation I have made over the years is that according to the woman, her 'ex-' is ALWAYS a "Jerk". Some of My friends are ex-'s. Some, granted, are indeed Jerks. Most, however, are merely trying to deal with life as best they can, and to reconcile themselves to the fact that women are not interested in making the relationship work -especially when all the advice groups and women's forums continually insist that "If he starts becoming angry, just LEAVE". Most miss their partners immensely, and wish there was some way to reconcile.

Amazingly enough, however, ALL the women insist that they could not possibly get back together with 'him' -or... perhaps -"but first he has to change".

My question is; why is it always the male who has to change?

55 posted on 10/22/2002 3:19:54 PM PDT by Utilizer
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To: shrinkermd; Happygal
God, talk about the death of romance. Whatever happened to finding one true love? I am pleased to say, it does happen.

Regards, Ivan

56 posted on 10/22/2002 3:22:01 PM PDT by MadIvan
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To: longtermmemmory
"Thats manure, respectfully I disagree. The problem with your theory is will and does come across as manipulation or trickery."

Agree with you in part. I had someone do something like this to Me. She has three children, who are really great, and wanted (well, still wants) more from Me than I was willing to give -namely a relationship. I can't help it, I like children -mostly-, and hers are great. I simply am not interested in a relationship with her for obvious reasons. She always mentioned family outings, including nieces and nephews, and picnics and whatnots in order to try to get Me to spend more time with them (her).

57 posted on 10/22/2002 3:29:25 PM PDT by Utilizer
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To: Enemy Of The State
Because we dont want to give away half of our stuff

Half if you're lucky. Sometimes all.

58 posted on 10/22/2002 3:32:02 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: MadIvan
"God, talk about the death of romance. Whatever happened to finding one true love? I am pleased to say, it does happen."

Greetings, Mate! Good to know you're still 'angin' about!

I found a true love many years ago. She passed away and I was devastated. Now, I would like to find a decent woman to love and marry, but am in no hurry. I am not impressed with the calibre of most of the women I meet, unfortunatwly.

It is actually somewhat amusing at this point. I mean, I was your stereotypical ugly duckling when I was young, but age has changed Me to the point where I am often asked if I will do some modeling (not attempting to sound vain here, merely expressing a point). Even when I was young I was more interested in marriage than a one-night stand, and moreso these days. Now all the women who would not even give Me a second glance those days are quite interested, and I have to shake My head at their antics. Too, I knew some of the blokes they were involved with (the ones I know from back then), and I must say I was not impressed with their choices.

Now they have several children, have let themselves go downhill, and have gone through several other partners since then. That, or I still recall their Feminist rantings when they were younger. Pardon My reluctance, but I believe I have reason to doubt their decision-making abilities at this point.

59 posted on 10/22/2002 3:41:37 PM PDT by Utilizer
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To: shrinkermd
Why Men Won't Commit?

Blue Zone women are condescending and mean. I'm beginning to think any woman (or man) who grew up watching American televison has absorbed too many poisonous values to make acceptable marriage material.

60 posted on 10/22/2002 3:49:11 PM PDT by Mr. Jeeves
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To: Utilizer
I know from experience that women get angry when you tell them you are not interested in any committed relationship which involves prior children. I am thinking of a specific incident where it was a casual introduction with a group of freinds. As we talked and I found she had a child from a previous relationship, I was trying to not appear too interested. Since it was a group of friends, we ate chatted about life. In the end as we were all parting company and the young lady left, the girlfriend of the my friend who arranged the introduction ask how I liked her. When I told her, I was not interested because she had a kid, she said I was being selfish. No I just did not want someone else's mistake even if it meant not pursuing what seemed like an otherwise nice woman. She was polite but obviously upset at my opinion. My long time freind knew my opinion but his girlfreind assumed the nice lady's personality would have won me over. In the end, I did not see my freind again until he broke up with his girlfriend.
Being a single mom means you are a mother first and a girlfriend 112th on the priority scale. Not with my life not with my money. I will make my own "mistakes" before I take care of someone elses.

61 posted on 10/22/2002 4:03:09 PM PDT by longtermmemmory
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To: Utilizer
Most, however, are merely trying to deal with life as best they can, and to reconcile themselves to the fact that women are not interested in making the relationship work -especially when all the advice groups and women's forums continually insist that "If he starts becoming angry, just LEAVE". Most miss their partners immensely, and wish there was some way to reconcile.

-----------------------------------------

Why would any man miss somebody like this? This suggests these men have reied to talk themselves into a poor bargain because women of any caliber and decencency are not in sufficience abundance.

62 posted on 10/22/2002 4:23:31 PM PDT by RLK
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To: Utilizer
She has three children, who are really great, and wanted (well, still wants) more from Me than I was willing to give -namely a relationship. I can't help it, I like children -mostly-, and hers are great. I simply am not interested in a relationship with her for obvious reasons. She always mentioned family outings, including nieces and nephews, and picnics and whatnots in order to try to get Me to spend more time with them (her).

-----------

The reasons are not obvious. At some time in your young life you are going to need to defecate or get off the pot.

63 posted on 10/22/2002 4:27:07 PM PDT by RLK
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To: Vic3O3
Oh YES we are... We just hide it real good...
64 posted on 10/22/2002 4:37:12 PM PDT by cavtrooper21
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To: MadIvan
Thanks, Ivan.

Lot of very bitter people here.

Wow. My wife and I dated for three years and we never lived together before we married. We've been married for three and a half years now, and we're still as crazy about each other as when we first met.

She's the kind of person who always goes out of the way to do small things to make me happy - and I've picked up the habit of doing that for her. We share everything, good times and chores included. We can discuss anything, and I don't think we've ever had a disagreement that lasted longer than an half-hour.

When I compare my experience to that of a lot of guys here, I begin to realize that I'm extremely fortunate.

65 posted on 10/22/2002 5:12:29 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: laurav
I enjoyed this article, but it was a bit fluffy. I mean, I'm no man-hater, but honestly, what woman in their right mind would put up with a man?

Men bring so much hurt and misery into womens lives. Whether it be physical abuse, rape, emotional abuse, adultery, (though that could go both ways), child abuse, pedophilia, dead-beat-dad-syndrome, (not paying child support), morally bankrupt, intellectually void (cave-man-mentality)...the list goes on and on...

And believe me, I still have male friends which I respect and care deeply for, but as far as letting one into my life, into my home, and into my son's life...no way! Not in a million years!
66 posted on 10/22/2002 5:42:27 PM PDT by Lilly
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To: wideawake
I'm right there with you. My lady is the greatist thing that has happened/is happening/will happen to me. We have 5 years together and they have not been easy, but well worth the effort. Some folks think that a marrige is like ordering something from Yahoo, almost instant gratification.
Folks, the work ethic applys to marrige also, and will get you more in the end than slaving away for the man....
67 posted on 10/22/2002 5:53:40 PM PDT by cavtrooper21
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To: KoestlersRedFiat
yep, you are not alone.
39 and never married.
Rather that than married to the wrong person or divorced.
68 posted on 10/22/2002 6:02:18 PM PDT by jrp
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To: Lilly
That's an unfortunate attitude. I know more than a couple young men, that if they feel they should commit to you, would be faithful, loving and STRONG mates of superior character.

I am among them :)
69 posted on 10/22/2002 6:04:06 PM PDT by Skywalk
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To: longtermmemmory
I would have never lived with a man without marriage that would be the day i would clean the piss off of the bowl and do it for a man i was not married to, if i did not meet my husband i would be single and living alone.
70 posted on 10/22/2002 6:14:40 PM PDT by angcat
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Comment #71 Removed by Moderator

To: Motherbear
You want her to earn a paycheck for the cake, bake the cake, and feed it to you.

And your point is ;)

72 posted on 10/22/2002 6:18:54 PM PDT by briant
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Comment #73 Removed by Moderator

To: shrinkermd
Thanks for the post....its and interesting read.
74 posted on 10/22/2002 6:54:30 PM PDT by anncoulteriscool
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To: laurav
A can of tuna? What kind of men are they!!!!
75 posted on 10/22/2002 6:55:56 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Motherbear
enjoyed this article, but it was a bit fluffy. I mean, I'm no man-hater, but honestly, what woman in their right mind would put up with a man? Men bring so much hurt and misery into womens lives. Whether it be physical abuse, rape, emotional abuse, adultery, (though that could go both ways), child abuse, pedophilia, dead-beat-dad-syndrome, (not paying child support), morally bankrupt, intellectually void (cave-man-mentality)...the list goes on and on...

If she is right and I'm competing with Ted Kennedy wanna-bes, no worries! (Tongue firmly in cheek) LOL.

76 posted on 10/22/2002 6:58:47 PM PDT by briant
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To: Enemy Of The State
*****Ill tell you why men dont want to commit. Because we dont want to give away half of our stuff when the relationship goes sour. *****

I once had a friend who said: "if it doesn't work out she'll take half your money, if it does work out she'll take all you money". LOL

77 posted on 10/22/2002 6:59:13 PM PDT by anncoulteriscool
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To: briant
Btw, it's from post #66.
78 posted on 10/22/2002 6:59:51 PM PDT by briant
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Comment #79 Removed by Moderator

To: briant
Things sure have changed!

Of all the people that I grew up with I only know of 2 that have gotten divorced.

Personally, i've been happilly married for 44 years.
80 posted on 10/22/2002 7:13:56 PM PDT by dalereed
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To: dalereed
Personally, i've been happilly married for 44 years.

You are clearly not a sophisticated, thinking person, don't you know all the best and brightest have been married and divorced several times just ask Larry King. /sarcasm

81 posted on 10/22/2002 7:23:01 PM PDT by briant
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To: Lilly
Men bring so much hurt and misery into womens lives.

And believe me, I still have male friends which I respect and care deeply for, but as far as letting one into my life, into my home, and into my son's life...no way! Not in a million years!

Sorry to tell you this, but in the fullness of time your son will become what you hate and fear. A man.

82 posted on 10/22/2002 7:27:22 PM PDT by LibKill
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To: longtermmemmory
Having dated several women with children from prior relationships,I'd also like to point out the one trait they had in common that I found somewhat annoying-

They get in the habit of telling their kids what to do,and they go right on giving orders when you're out on the town with them.

Yes,it's understandable,and a small dose of it is sort of endearing,but a whole evening of it is a bit much.

83 posted on 10/22/2002 7:29:44 PM PDT by sawsalimb
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To: LibKill
actually with that kind of venomous man hating, her little boy will become a homosexual.
84 posted on 10/22/2002 7:38:51 PM PDT by longtermmemmory
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To: KoestlersRedFiat
I've known that for at least 10 years . Having just turned 39 I gave up on the dating scene years ago.
85 posted on 10/22/2002 7:41:20 PM PDT by Nebr FAL owner
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To: anncoulteriscool
Yeah, I keep trying to correct the Pay To line on my paycheck to read: Mrs Cavtrooper21 and Little Cavtrooper21. The office people just laugh... Best money I've earned.:)
86 posted on 10/22/2002 8:14:51 PM PDT by cavtrooper21
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To: Skywalk
Good to hear. I know there have been, will be, and are some decent men. I am friends with some of them, and respect and appreciate them dearly.
87 posted on 10/22/2002 8:16:41 PM PDT by Lilly
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To: LibKill
I don't hate or fear men. I'm a cautious-realist! :)

As for my son, yes, you're right. He's just now entering his teen years, and in such a hurry to be a grown up. But, I got very lucky. The Lord has blessed me with a wonderful son. He's a wonderful boy. And I hope with the Christian male role models he's been exposed to in his life, and with the morals and values I've taught him he'll make wise decisions when I'm not around, or he's on his own. But, in the end he'll be accountable for his own actions, as we all are.
88 posted on 10/22/2002 8:21:26 PM PDT by Lilly
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To: Mr. Jeeves
I'm beginning to think any woman (or man) who grew up watching American televison has absorbed too many poisonous values to make acceptable marriage material.

What about those of us that grew up watching Leave it to Beaver, Roy Rogers, The Lone Ranger, My Three Sons, Andy Griffith etc... Those were solid, values oriented shows.

89 posted on 10/22/2002 8:29:24 PM PDT by AFreeBird
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Comment #90 Removed by Moderator

To: shrinkermd
Secret Courts....

No Legal Representation....

False Accusations....

Freedom wrongfully taken away....

America's Divorce Courts, what me worry?

91 posted on 10/22/2002 9:15:20 PM PDT by Yasotay
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To: Lilly
What amazing hate you have towards men.
92 posted on 10/22/2002 9:55:44 PM PDT by Z in Oregon
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To: Z in Oregon
Why this man won't commit is simple,THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS LOVE!

Close, but try this....There is no such thing as true love in a community property state....

93 posted on 10/22/2002 10:18:14 PM PDT by rolling_stone
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To: rolling_stone
Although the comment that you replied to wasn't mine, your assertion that "there is no such thing as true love in a community property state has a lot of validity to it.

The financial dissolution of a marriage should be treated like the financial dissolution of a business: each partner gets out financially what they paid in financially, with no "credits" for anything: if one marital partner's income paid for 90% of the house, that marital partner is entitled to recoup 90% of the value of the house in the event of a divorce.

94 posted on 10/22/2002 10:57:03 PM PDT by Z in Oregon
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To: Z in Oregon
Uh, welcome to Free Republic.

While trying to refrain from shaking my head, I must ask that you read my previous posts in which I stated (twice) that I do not, in fact hate men. I have many male friends (as I stated previously) in whom I respect and deeply care for.
95 posted on 10/22/2002 11:11:57 PM PDT by Lilly
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To: shrinkermd
Speaking as a never-married man in his early thirties, I can say that marriage is a frightening prospect. Divorce is very common. When it happens, the man will suffer a bitter blow. Half of his property will be lost, and a good deal of his income will continue to be taken for some time after the marriage. His educaton, his skill, and his efforts, all of which he had prior to the marriage, might well end up adding to the bank account of a woman who hates him for years and years. Ouch. Add children and it's worse still.

The risk is asymmetrical. Women often suffer in a divorce, it's true, but when they walk out they're gambling with his money and years of his career, not their own. They know they will be the ones to maintain custody of their children, and that they will have powerful control over the ex-husband's access. They'll likely get the house they now live in, especially if there are kids. With social barriers to divorce eliminated, it's not surprising so many women find this arrangement acceptable and split.

So marriage is a huge risk for a man. So, if you're going to take it, you ought to be able to answer a simple question: why?

I hate to say it, but it's not usual to find women who inspire the sort of trust the whole thing requires. I date a lot, and I find too many women who simply want a different lifestyle than the one they have. They seem to look at a future husband as not just a person with certain qualities, but a door into a new lifestyle: a husband provides them with things, money, social status, a family, and if she's lucky travel and other luxuries. It's understandable that these things matter, but so many women can't help but show they want these things and they want them now. The women I meet who are right about thirty are this way, at least. Too often they will express frustration way too soon in a relationship about how men won't "commit" and give them what they want.

I can't help but feel resentful. What were you doing in your early and mid-twenties, I wonder. And what's with the thought that now I'm going to fix all these problems now that time's running out? The women I have dated have been attractive, educated, and intelligent. They've also told me in great detail about the "jerks" they dated before. So they had opportunities to make things work out, but I can see what's happened. He wasn't "good enough", she was just so excited about X who was married, he was too "boring", she didn't want "to commit", whatever. Now, though, that they've been frightened by the calendar I'm supposed to make it all right. And I'm the "jerk" now if I don't commit right away!

What I'm saying is that a surprising number of women have a powerful sense of entitlement. They take for granted a man's willingness to support them and provide them the life they want. When they're younger, and in the bloom of youth, they have a wealth of options and feel no need to commit. When they're older, they figure all they need do is demand what they want and it ought to come to them. Either way, yikes! This is someone you want to entrust the state's powers of enforcement to when it comes to your future?

Not all women are this way, of course, but I'm telling you what I see a lot. Me and my friends.

I could write a lot more, but I've gotta run.

96 posted on 10/22/2002 11:17:23 PM PDT by Timm
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To: Timm
I can't help but feel resentful. What were you doing in your early and mid-twenties, I wonder...

----------------------------

They were screwing around. Now they want out for a little rest and a sucker to provide a temporary nest to rest in.

97 posted on 10/22/2002 11:42:41 PM PDT by RLK
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To: MadIvan; Hillary's Lovely Legs
God, talk about the death of romance. Whatever happened to finding one true love? I am pleased to say, it does happen.

It's just many of these men are looking for love in all the wrong places.

Then there are the cranky ones who just like to fuss about women, i.e., women don't know how to be a proper wife, feminists ruined them all, they take half your money, wah, wah, wah.

Feminists never ruined me. My first husband not only wanted a proper wife, he wanted me to bring home all the bacon to boot.
And these guys never talk about the men who leave their loyal, loving wives for the young honey. I wonder if it's ok to accept half the man's money if that's the case.

I think the trick is finding someone that you can agree with on the most important things and find that out before marriage.

I'm just so grateful for wonderful men like you and my husband, REAL MEN! :-)

Love your HMWHC pic HLL! LOL

98 posted on 10/23/2002 5:47:52 AM PDT by BigWaveBetty
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To: philetus
Young men and women think everyone their "in love with" is their soulmate.

Maybe that's part of the problem, men think someone like Pamela Lee Anderson is their soulmate.

99 posted on 10/23/2002 6:13:35 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: KoestlersRedFiat
I know that I'll have a lot of other singles for company in the retirement home

Maybe then you'll meet your perfect soulmate. I don't think there are perfect soulmates, you have to find someone compatible and work things out. People get set in their ways though, it's easier for people if they marry young and grow together.

100 posted on 10/23/2002 6:15:56 AM PDT by FITZ
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