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I need some opinions on possible evidence of electoral shenanigans.
Vanity | 10/23/02 | Luis Gonzalez

Posted on 10/23/2002 8:42:18 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez

In was having lunch yesterday with a customer, in his Liberty City restaurant, when our table was approached by a well-dressed man.

He was well acquainted with my friend/customer, and began making conversation about the upcoming elections.

He handed my friend a listing of precints open and available for "early voting", then handed him what he called an something like an informative card, to help with the issues and candidates.

My friend introduced this man as a local Minister ot considerable influence.

I grabbed the "informative" card, and threw it in my briefcase, then, as he and I exchanged some pleasntries, my friend informed the Minister that I was a Republican.

He shook my hand, and left.

The cards are posted below.

I have a question:

Isn't there supposed to be some sort of information on these hand outs as to who paid for the political ad?


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Free Republic; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Florida; Your Opinion/Questions
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.....

I am going to be away from my computer for a few hours, but would love some learned opinions on this.

Luis

1 posted on 10/23/2002 8:42:18 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: Seeking the truth; gonzo; William Wallace
Any thoughts?
2 posted on 10/23/2002 8:42:54 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: Clemenza; RMDupree
Any thoughts?
3 posted on 10/23/2002 8:43:42 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: mhking
Any thoughts?
4 posted on 10/23/2002 8:44:07 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Is it illegal to make recommendations, or was there some intent to vote illegally?
5 posted on 10/23/2002 8:46:21 AM PDT by js1138
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Curious.....what are amendments that have no recommendation?
6 posted on 10/23/2002 8:47:18 AM PDT by alisasny
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To: Luis Gonzalez
How 'bout that separation of church and state?

Oh, that's right, that only applies when it's a conservative
7 posted on 10/23/2002 8:49:24 AM PDT by AbnSarge
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To: Luis Gonzalez
In California, yes. Probably elsewhere too. Contact your local or state Republican campaign office or the Secretary of State...
8 posted on 10/23/2002 8:51:14 AM PDT by eureka!
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Proof of electoral shenanigans?

Three words:

SENATOR HILLARY CLINTON

9 posted on 10/23/2002 8:52:55 AM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: Luis Gonzalez
:Isn't there supposed to be some sort of information on these hand outs as to who paid for the political ad?

Luis, we're Republicans. Don't you know it's "voter intimidation" either to ask or answer questions like that?

Dwelling on little things like election law is liable to scare away Democrat constituencies. Here's another example.

Actually, I think you're onto something. My mailbox is full of flyers like this from advocacy groups, and they all have a declaration somewhere as to the group that is originating them. I'm sure that's a Federal disclosure rule, not exclusive to California.

While we're on the subject of shenanigans, I'm not a big fan of early or absentee voting anyway (military and foreign service personnel excepted.) Too much opportunity for fraud.




10 posted on 10/23/2002 8:55:35 AM PDT by Sabertooth
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Sure looks suspicious to me! Go get'em, Luis. We're right behind you.
11 posted on 10/23/2002 8:59:33 AM PDT by goody2shooz
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To: Luis Gonzalez
--those subversives (angry white males, all of them) that fomented the American Revolution in print, did a lot of their writing anonymously--
12 posted on 10/23/2002 8:59:59 AM PDT by rellimpank
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To: MeeknMing
Troublemaker.





13 posted on 10/23/2002 9:01:49 AM PDT by Sabertooth
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Isn't there supposed to be some sort of information on these hand outs as to who paid for the political ad?

I think there is information on the card who paid for them.

Every position says, DEM, DEM, DEM, DEM, DEM, DEM, DEM, DEM, DEM, DEM.;-)

14 posted on 10/23/2002 9:02:11 AM PDT by Spunky
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I would argue that this an attempt to educate voters and is not only legal, but effective. The way to counter such moves is to make Republican cards and work the streets.

Of interest to me would be the ministers race. I have heard that black churches are political organizations and ministers receive "walking around money" to purvey the partyline message. If the minister is black, it would lend credance to the rumor. If white or hispanic, would indicate a more widespread practice.

Of real interest and of some legal importance would be providing the message and distributing the cards in the church on Sunday morning. You could do us a great service by attending services on next Sunday morning to see and to hear first hand. I must admit that I have almost visited such a church on Sunday but chickened.

15 posted on 10/23/2002 9:04:25 AM PDT by bert
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To: Luis Gonzalez
The 2001 Florida Statutes


http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0106/titl0106.htm&StatuteYear=2001&Title=-%3E2001-%3EChapter%20106

check out 106.143 and 106.1437


16 posted on 10/23/2002 9:13:10 AM PDT by Between the Lines
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I don't see the harm. Church groups give out their recommendations. Heck, I go to Roger Hedgecock's website here in San Diego and (usually) vote whatever he says.
17 posted on 10/23/2002 9:16:15 AM PDT by Hildy
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To: bert
"If the minister is black..."

Yes.

18 posted on 10/23/2002 9:17:22 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Call your Local Election Commission office, explain what it is you have, ask about the law pertaining to stating who is putting this out. If this is an individual his name should appear as paid for by so and so...if a group same thing...if a church... they may have broken IRS law by mixing politics and religion.
19 posted on 10/23/2002 9:18:10 AM PDT by D. Miles
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Churches and Their
Legal Role in Politics....

http://www.familypolicy.net/tips/churches-pol.shtml

As the representative of a church, the pastor can not endorse, promote or oppose political candidates, campaigns or parties. However, as an individual, the pastor may exercise his First Amendment right by involvement in any political activity he chooses.
20 posted on 10/23/2002 9:22:30 AM PDT by Between the Lines
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To: D. Miles
...if a group same thing...if a church... they may have broken IRS law by mixing politics and religion.

If the church has 501 c 3 status, it could lose it for becoming involved in supporting parties or candidates. Of course, as a practical matter, this only applies to Conservative churches. Churches filled with Demo-rat voters always get a "pass," to wit Je$$e Jackson and his "church."

21 posted on 10/23/2002 9:30:43 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Bump! Hope you get some good info, Luis.
22 posted on 10/23/2002 9:44:35 AM PDT by windchime
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To: Luis Gonzalez
No suprise!! The teachers union does it every election. You get a list of suggested votes. I got one for the Presidential election said I should vote for Gore/Lieberman (yeah right) and Sunday a guy from the Local union came around trying to get my husband who is (rabid) anti-union to vote for the union "suggested" slate. All (d) after their names. HAHAHA too bad they can't go in the booth with me, only in IRAQ! So far.
23 posted on 10/23/2002 9:48:24 AM PDT by mamarainsberry
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Any thoughts?

Yeah, I have some thoughts. But they would get me banned!

24 posted on 10/23/2002 9:53:11 AM PDT by RMDupree
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To: Luis Gonzalez
But, I should add that now I am clear on how to vote on all of the issues.

I simply do the opposite. :)

25 posted on 10/23/2002 9:53:55 AM PDT by RMDupree
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Luis - I left a message on your cell.

I spoke with Mary Ellen Miller, Chairman of the GOD here in Miami-Dade County and she is going to have the GOP Headquarters call me back on this. Hang on to the original card, buddy. They are going to need it as evidence!! Woo-HOO!!

Also, try to get the name of this local minister if you can. Mary Ellen was very nice and explained that many of the people nn that community are intimidated.

26 posted on 10/23/2002 10:11:26 AM PDT by RMDupree
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To: RMDupree
GOD = GOP!

Oops!

27 posted on 10/23/2002 10:11:53 AM PDT by RMDupree
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To: All
Got called back right away from GOP. I sent them the link to this thread to they can follow up on this possible illegality.

RE: CFR. Luis, I'm not sure on the details in this new law. 60 days? Hmmmm....

28 posted on 10/23/2002 10:27:08 AM PDT by RMDupree
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Were this a complete, uneditorialized copy of the ballot, that might skate, but this is obviuosly partisan, only Dems listed, and any amendment which involved throwing tax money at po' folk or teachers was favored. Yes, luis, this is a violation, but getting the Sec. of State's office to put this high on the agenda in a state with Florida's problems would not be a good bet.

If you want to do something effective on voter fraud, check out Fl. law on poll watchers, especially as regards signature verification on mailed in ballots. That is a huge window of opportunity for fraud.

Given a bankroll, I could get near anyone elected in Oregon, which went to ALL ballots by mail, saving money, don't you know.

Picture this: Some statewide races end up costing $20+ per vote actually cast for that candidate. Give me a pocket full of money, I can walk in any lower class, blue collar gin mill (the sort I have worked for twenty years) and walk out with a briefcase full of blank ballots, $5 per max. Signature verification? Buy a round for the house and have an autograph party.

My opinion, mail in ballots are the single most fertile field for fraud going now. I speak from some experience, I have been a precinct election judge for 10 years now.
29 posted on 10/23/2002 10:33:41 AM PDT by barkeep
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I am really confused by the design of it! What is it about forms designed in Florida?

I guess the answer to whether there has to be disclosure on who paid for it would be tied to who DID pay for it.

If you or I paid for and distributed it, or some other private enterprise, then I don't think we would have to disclose that any more than any other document we privately create.

If a campaign DID pay for it, I think they have to say so. If the church paid for it (as hinted at by the fact he is a minister) I don't know how a church's non-profit status limits them on political issues.
30 posted on 10/23/2002 10:36:50 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: bert
It has long amazed me, I must say, that RATS get away with politicing in Black Churches. Can't imagine how hysterical the media would be if Pubbies did this! Well, actually, I guess I can. I recall that Ashcroft got blasted by the media for speaking at a Christian University. They didn't agree with the views of that particular faith and demonized him and the school. Bob Jones wasn't it?
31 posted on 10/23/2002 10:46:39 AM PDT by ladyinred
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To: bert
Yea. And have you noticed that the Sunday before every election, the black churches are overrun with politicians; black and white. Al Gore went into a black church during the 2000 Prez election and sounded like an evangelist. Why is it that nothing is ever said? But, a White pastor (which is what I am) has to be very careful not to endanger the chruch's tax exempt status by making political statements from the pulpit. WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE? I think that Luis needs to contact the County GOP Headquarters.
32 posted on 10/23/2002 11:25:34 AM PDT by no dems
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To: no dems; RMDupree
"I think that Luis needs to contact the County GOP Headquarters."

Ruthy Dupree got me on a three-way call with the Miami-Dade GOP. They took the information, and requested a link to this post.

They also asked me to hold on to the card.

33 posted on 10/23/2002 12:10:14 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: HairOfTheDog; Ragtime Cowgirl; gonzo; Seeking the truth; Clemenza

The 2001 Florida Statutes

Title IX
Electors And Elections
Chapter 106
Campaign Financing
View Entire Chapter

106.143  Political advertisements circulated prior to election; requirements.--

(1)  Any political advertisement and any campaign literature published, displayed, or circulated prior to, or on the day of, any election shall:

(a)  Be marked "paid political advertisement" or with the abbreviation "pd. pol. adv."

(b)  Identify the persons or organizations sponsoring the advertisement.

(c)1.a.  State whether the advertisement and the cost of production is paid for or provided in kind by or at the expense of the entity publishing, displaying, broadcasting, or circulating the political advertisement; or

b.  State who provided or paid for the advertisement and cost of production, if different from the source of sponsorship.

2.  This paragraph shall not apply if the source of the sponsorship is patently clear from the content or format of the political advertisement or campaign literature.

This subsection does not apply to campaign messages used by a candidate and the candidate's supporters if those messages are designed to be worn by a person.

(2)  Any political advertisement of a candidate running for partisan office shall express the name of the political party of which the candidate is seeking nomination or is the nominee. If the candidate for partisan office is running as a candidate with no party affiliation, any political advertisement of the candidate must state that the candidate has no party affiliation.

(3)  It is unlawful for any candidate or person on behalf of a candidate to represent that any person or organization supports such candidate, unless the person or organization so represented has given specific approval in writing to the candidate to make such representation. However, this subsection does not apply to:

(a)  Editorial endorsement by any newspaper, radio or television station, or other recognized news medium.

(b)  Publication by a party committee advocating the candidacy of its nominees.

(4)(a)  Any political advertisement, including those paid for by a political party, other than an independent expenditure, offered by or on behalf of a candidate must be approved in advance by the candidate. Such political advertisement must expressly state that the content of the advertisement was approved by the candidate and must state who paid for the advertisement. The candidate shall provide a written statement of authorization to the newspaper, radio station, television station, or other medium for each such advertisement submitted for publication, display, broadcast, or other distribution.

(b)  Any person who makes an independent expenditure for a political advertisement shall provide a written statement that no candidate has approved the advertisement to the newspaper, radio station, television station, or other medium for each such advertisement submitted for publication, display, broadcast, or other distribution. The advertisement must also contain a statement that no candidate has approved the advertisement.

(c)  This subsection does not apply to campaign messages used by a candidate and his or her supporters if those messages are designed to be worn by a person.

(5)  No political advertisement of a candidate who is not an incumbent of the office for which the candidate is running shall use the word "re-elect." Additionally, such advertisement must include the word "for" between the candidate's name and the office for which the candidate is running, in order that incumbency is not implied. This subsection does not apply to bumper stickers or items designed to be worn by a person.

(6)  This section does not apply to novelty items having a retail value of $10 or less which support, but do not oppose, a candidate or issue.

(7)  Any political advertisement which is published, displayed, or produced in a language other than English may provide the information required by this section in the language used in the advertisement.

(8)  Any person who willfully violates any provision of this section is subject to the civil penalties prescribed in s. 106.265.

History.--s. 8, ch. 26870, 1951; s. 1, ch. 61-145; s. 21, ch. 65-379; s. 57, ch. 71-136; s. 30, ch. 73-128; s. 52, ch. 77-175; s. 30, ch. 81-304; s. 16, ch. 89-256; s. 35, ch. 90-315; s. 16, ch. 91-107; s. 646, ch. 95-147; s. 17, ch. 97-13; s. 18, ch. 99-318.

Note.--Former s. 104.37.


34 posted on 10/23/2002 12:13:20 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: AAABEST; dennisw
Hey! If you're out of the swamps, you may want to take a gander at this.
35 posted on 10/23/2002 12:14:27 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Do you know who paid for it or what the distribution of it has been? Who are "The People" in "The People's Slate"?

If I wanted to, I could create a document like that, "HairOfTheDog's Slate", if you will, with my endorsements on everything... and start handing out copies. When am I technically campaigning? - When is it technically an advertisement? If I submitted it to a news organization I would have to disclose, according to 4(b)... but what if I don't?
36 posted on 10/23/2002 12:26:57 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Luis, I believe that the 3 way call was with GOP headquarters, not the Miami Dade branch.

You gotta go straight to the top to get things done quickly and Mary Ellen deserves big FReepin' KUDOS for her response time and efforts!!

37 posted on 10/23/2002 12:45:36 PM PDT by RMDupree
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To: Luis Gonzalez
This early voting is bull and will defeat Jeb Bush. Are Democrat voters in Dade too retarded to figure out how to vote on election day? It's written in law that Federal elections are held on the Tuesday after the first Monday. Most states/ counties/cities copy this.
38 posted on 10/23/2002 12:47:41 PM PDT by dennisw
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To: RMDupree
Whoa!

I couldn't tell who I was talking to, other than you that is.

I was busy trying to negotiate my cell phone, a Vente Caramel Macchiatto from Starbuck's, and I-75 traffic.

39 posted on 10/23/2002 12:51:24 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: Luis Gonzalez
(b) Any person who makes an independent expenditure for a political advertisement shall provide a written statement that no candidate has approved the advertisement to the newspaper, radio station, television station, or other medium for each such advertisement submitted for publication, display, broadcast, or other distribution. The advertisement must also contain a statement that no candidate has approved the advertisement.

My guess is that the Dems will say they knew nothing of this slate card and let the poor minister hang out to dry. And even IF they paid for the cards, they'll be sure to wipe up their tracks so it's never traced back to them.

40 posted on 10/23/2002 12:52:11 PM PDT by RMDupree
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To: Luis Gonzalez
(6) This section does not apply to novelty items having a retail value of $10 or less which support, but do not oppose, a candidate or issue.

Do slate cards count as "novelty items"?

41 posted on 10/23/2002 12:56:35 PM PDT by RMDupree
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To: RMDupree
"Do slate cards count as "novelty items"?"

I think in order to qualify as a novelty item, it would have to include a picure of Alcee Hastings in a Judge's robe.

42 posted on 10/23/2002 1:02:25 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: ClaireSolt; Qathleen; Luke FReeman; visitor; JulieRNR21; Rome2000; Sam Cree
Over here y'all!!!!
43 posted on 10/23/2002 1:04:26 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: Luis Gonzalez
LOL!!!

Or Janet Reno dressed as Lady Justice!

44 posted on 10/23/2002 1:06:01 PM PDT by RMDupree
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I wouldn't think there would be an authorship requirement, but I would think that an (intelligent) voter would want to know whose recommendations he was following. 'Course an intelligent voter can make up his own mind.

Heard on the radio that a minister(?) who is a NAACP member was on radio in Miami likening GWB to Adolf Hitler.
45 posted on 10/23/2002 1:24:02 PM PDT by Sam Cree
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Luis, you're getting some good advice here. Unless there's a name on that ballot somewhere, this is in violatation of 106.265. That novelty rule can't apply because they oppose issues/amendments. The GOP is not going to let them get away with sticking a pin in it and calling it wearable, either. Thank you, Luis. Send a copy to Terry McAuliffe. (^:

Alcee Hasting in a judges robe. LOL!

46 posted on 10/23/2002 1:35:56 PM PDT by Ragtime Cowgirl
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To: Sam Cree
+"Authorship" requirement?

No.

But they are required, by Florida Statutes, to include who paid for the flyers.

Not only that, but this could be in violation of CFR.

Now, would that be a hoot or what?

47 posted on 10/23/2002 1:37:51 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: Ragtime Cowgirl; RMDupree
Just got off the phone with the State GOP people, they are interested in this.

Not sure if anything can be done, but being informed beats being in the dark any day.

48 posted on 10/23/2002 1:39:47 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: Jim Robinson
Hey Jim!

Check this out.
49 posted on 10/23/2002 1:41:05 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: HairOfTheDog
"HairofTheDog Slate" sounds a bit cumbersome.

I would suggest: DoggyHair Slate: We will not fleas you.
50 posted on 10/23/2002 1:46:00 PM PDT by justshe
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