Bush says does not support independence for Taiwan -(Bush Shafts Taiwan, mine)

Reuters ^ | 10-26-02

[tallhappy]

CRAWFORD, Texas (Reuters) - U.S. President George W. Bush said on Friday the United States would use its influence to ensure China and Taiwan settle their differences peacefully and promised to make it clear to Taipei that Washington does not support independence.

In a news conference with Chinese President Jiang Zemin, Bush said the United States stood by the "one China" policy, which acknowledges that Chinese on both sides of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is only one China and that Taiwan is part of China.

"The 'one China' policy means that the issue ought to be resolved peacefully," Bush said.

"We've got influence with some in the region. We intend to make sure that the issue is resolved peacefully, and that includes making it clear that we do not support independence," Bush added.

Taiwan's president, Chen Shui-bian, has voiced support for a referendum on formal independence from China.

The move outraged Beijing, which views the island as a renegade province and a linchpin in Sino-U.S. relations.

Beijing had hoped Bush would repeat a pledge not to back independence for Taiwan, which China says must eventually be reunified with the mainland, by force if necessary.

Nationalists headed by Chiang Kai-shek fled to Taiwan in 1949 after losing a civil war to Mao Zedong's communists. Washington shifted diplomatic recognition to Beijing in 1979.

But the United States has offered Taiwan the biggest arms package in a decade and Bush has pledged to do "whatever it takes" to help the democratically governed island protect itself.

Bush did not repeat that pledge at Friday's news conference.

But during a visit to China earlier this year, he said, "When my country makes an agreement, we stick with it, and there is (something) called the Taiwan Relations Act and I honour that act, which says we will help Taiwan defend herself if provoked."

China says it is seriously concerned about the U.S. warming to Taiwan under Bush and has called on Washington to halt military contacts and arms sales to the island.

[Thane_Banquo]

Bush needs China's support on the Iraq resolution.

I support a one China policy myself: Reunification after the fall of Chinese Communism.

[2sheep]

Interview with Chinese Dissident Harry Wu -- excerpt:

J.R. Nyquist:  How would you characterize the ruling Communist Party in China. I mean, what sort of people are they?

Harry Wu:  Butchers.

[philman_36]

They also have not acted militarily to take back Taiwan, probably because they didn't have the capacity, but maybe because they are patient enough accomplish it politically like they did with Hong Kong.
Hong Kong is not a very good "political" example. The return of Hong Kong had to do with a lease expiration and nothing to do with political solutions, as is happening now.
Their economy is second largest in the world, roughly half of our economy. Within 15 to 20 years, they will have a larger economy than ours.
Speculation on your part?
And from a "war making" aspect where production is key...Why Is China Growing So Fast?
The most interesting part...China's recent productivity performance is remarkable. By comparison, productivity growth for the Asian tigers hovered around 2 percent, sometimes slightly more, for the 1966-91 period. China's rate of almost 4 percent simply puts it in a class by itself.
I notice you used the "tiger" metaphor yourself earlier in the thread.
When it gets to the point where China does have the military capacity to invade Taiwan, there will be a political solution.
China's Military Keeps on Modernizing
War over Taiwan is not viewed by Beijing as imminent. Given the desire of both the Taiwan government and the United States not to provoke Beijing into military action, the initiative lies with China. Its leaders believe that the sustained rapid growth of the economy is working in their favor.
Almost all the new conventional weapons needed to overcome China's military backwardness have to be imported at high cost. Imported weapons make China dependent on suppliers, primarily Russia, for spare parts and follow-on models. Although a large part of the military budget is earmarked for current expenses, at these levels substantial funds are available for imports. Suppliers stand ready to sell modern weapons and technology - first of all Russia, but also Israel, France, Britain, Germany and South Africa. The equipment of China's armed forces can be expected to improve much more in the coming years than in the recent past.

Yep, history repeating itself. Pump up the economy and in a few years your enemy is powerful enough and wealthy enough to strike out. I wonder...will the "political solution" be Chamberlainian in manner?
Jeff, you might have some more insights.

[cynicalman]

Thanks: There were some interesting observations and I feel more informed about the one China Policy. For the most part a very intelligent thread.

[TN4Liberty]

The self-determination and liberty of 22 million on Taiwan mean absolutely nothing to them in comparison.

The Taiwanese do not want self determination and liberty separate from China. They see themselves as a Chinese government in exile. I don't believe they have ever advocated a separate state. I haven't studied this, but I believe this is the case.

[philman_36]

And habits of liberty create expectations of democracy.
This makes him a democrat, an adherent of democracy.
Where is constitutional, representative government? Where is the republicanism of this Republican?
You do the man no favors and I probably further ostracize myself.

[Tax Government]

Taiwan must stay independent, and it's our job to see that it does.

[Tax Government]

If Bush can't support Taiwan independence, then elect a democrat that can.

[philman_36]

The Taiwanese do not want self determination and liberty separate from China. They see themselves as a Chinese government in exile. I don't believe they have ever advocated a separate state. I haven't studied this, but I believe this is the case.
Yes, some do want independence.
Taiwan Independence Party
Chinese Premier Warns Against "Taiwan Independence"
Snip..."But I want to make clear here that whoever comes into power in Taiwan after the election must not go about 'Taiwan independence', nor will 'Taiwan independence' in whatever form be allowed," he stressed, adding, "this is the bottom line of the Chinese government and represents the common wish of the 1.25 billion people in China."
"Our consistent principle on the settlement of the Taiwan question has been 'peaceful reunification' and 'one country, two systems', but we do not promise giving up the use of force to resolve the Taiwan issue," the premier said.
"We will support whoever upholds the 'one China' principle, and we can hold negotiations with him on any question and are ready to make concessions on our part," he said.
"Whoever goes about 'Taiwan independence' is doomed," he said. "Because such a proposition runs against the wishes of the Chinese people on both sides of the Taiwan Strait, and runs against the wishes of overseas Chinese and people of Chinese origin all over the world."
Snip...The premier rebuffed the presumption that China dare not use force to resolve the Taiwan question. "Some people are calculating how many aircraft, missiles and warships China possesses, and have concluded that China dare not and will not use force (to resolve the Taiwan issue)," he said. "According to such kind of calculation, Hitler would long have ruled the whole world."
"People making such calculations don't know about the Chinese history. The Chinese people are ready to shed blood and sacrifice their lives to defend the unity of their motherland and the dignity of the Chinese nation," Zhu stressed.

[SR71A]

I don't believe they have ever advocated a separate state.

From the above article:

Taiwan's president, Chen Shui-bian, has voiced support for a referendum on formal independence from China.

This seems to contradict your belief about Taiwanese wishes for Independence.

Let's have that referendum, and see what the Taiwanese think. Do people have a right to self-determination or not?

[Quix]

There is certainly a preferance to have control over their region. But actually, it is not just over their region. Certain ones in their leadership really do want to be top king of the hill over the whole world.

They want the whole world to look upon them once again as the most developed; most scientific; most wealthy; most powerful, most to be feared; etc. etc. etc. country in the world. They really do believe it is their destiny and right--even duty to consume even Australia--which has all that land for all their people.

To say it has NOTHING to do with pride seems to me to indicate A) either you've never lived there or B) didn't have all your eyes, ears and discernment turned on when you did.

[SR71A]

They are not, at least have not been, imperialistic and we don't want them to be.

You seem to be forgetting about the invasion and brutal repression of Tibet, a separate nation and culture. Doesn't that meet your definition of imperialism?

[LibKill]

I have to disagree with W on this one.

No peace with Kommunists.

No truce with the shadow.

[Quix]

To Beijing, the emporer is still to be obeyed promptly, flawlessly and always. Power is still king. Without it, there will be chaos--witness Tienanmen--to their minds. Even people against the Communist leadership feel strongly that there must be strong, powerful leadership--even ruthless leadership to a point.

Yes, Taiwan people would be delighted to be free and not have to worry a flip about Beijing.

Most of them would probably prefer to have some sort of loose connection as part of the greater Chinese nation ethnically--but without losing any of their independence.

But this would show the lie to Beijing's stance that the people of Taiwan are yearning, reaching, hungering for reunification--which, of course, is a huge lie.

AND IT WOULD SLAP BEIJING'S PRIDE IN THE FACE VERY HUMILIATINGLY.

[Quix]

i WISH what you said was rock solid true.

Alas, it depends on many things.

I believe God will use Beijing as part of those bringing a humbling--even a humiliation--to the U.S.

And China will probably be against Israel. Then China will be disciplined. Depending on the percentage of Christians and their courage etc in prayer etc.--quite above ours--and depending on how ruthless the Chinese are in attacking the U.S. and Israel--will decide how devastated China ends up being.

Some have "seen" the Christian soldiers within the occupying Chinese force in the U.S. turn and fight with the Americans against the Chinese at some point.

[Quix]

He might could have had slightly more courage but I doubt it. He doesn't need China up in arms against him at this time--especially wanting them to abstain and not veto attacking Iraq.

[Quix]

Again, it depends on a lot of things.

Infiltrators could decide in significant numbers that they prefer the political climate and freedoms on Taiwan.

And Taiwanese could decide to surrender and not bother fighting. It seems very difficult for them to bother to really read the manuals; do the maintenance and do the training minimally required for the modern arms we DO give them.

Of course, many insist with good reason that the PLA is worse on such issues.

A lot of Taiwanese would fight vigorously. I don't know in what percentages. Most just want to be left alone like every other person in the world.

[concerned about politics]

Um.....So....What's changed? Why is this "new" news?
China and Tiwan have been at it for years. Bush said he'd like to help settle it. I'm good with that. It's just PR.
What's the big deal here?

[Quix]

Far, far too much truth in your assertion.

[Quix]

There's a lot like that we could do.

But actually, many in the Communist party would like free elections up to a point. They want to insure that they are so loved and respected that they would always be voted in on top. Too many people remember too much to be that thrilled with the Party leadership.