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A Lost Generation of Job Seekers?
E-Commerce Times ^ | October 28, 2002 | Peter Coy, Michelle Conlin & Emily Thornton

Posted on 10/28/2002 12:17:35 PM PST by Willie Green

For education and discussion only. Not for commercial use.

In a reversal of the late 1990s, young workers are being jettisoned right and left as companies make more room for older people many previously thought of as corporate has-beens.

A year and a half ago, Malene Comes of San Jose, Calif., and her husband, Craig, were raking in $120,000 a year and living la dolce vita. The two computer technicians indulged in lavish trips, hired a cleaning lady, and ate out almost every night. Then, both were laid off. Today, they get bags of groceries from a San Jose food bank, have joined the ranks of the uninsured, and beg their parents for $1,045 in rent for their 600-square-foot apartment.

"We didn't think we could fall this low," says Malene, 30, who has a low-paying job helping mentally retarded adults. Craig, 36, works part-time at specialty retailer Brookstone Co. and as a substitute teacher. Together they make about $35,000 a year. Says Malene: "The fun days are over. Let's face that."

Economists may say the 2001 recession is over, but it doesn't look that way to unemployed and underemployed people like Malene and Craig Comes. During the boom years, they looked set to inherit the Earth. The best and brightest earned fat signing bonuses, big salaries and fancy perks. With their futures seemingly secure, many young and mid-career workers took on big debts as they splurged on expensive houses, cars and vacations.

Now, many of them feel like a lost generation, worried that their peak earning years are behind them even as their expenses jump. For the youngest, the costs of raising families and paying mortgages lie ahead. For those closer to middle age, the burdens are heavier. "These guys are despondent," says psychologist Alden Cass, managing director at New York's Catalyst Strategies Group who studies laid-off brokers. He knows ex-Wall Streeters who are tending bar, waiting tables or working at the likes of RadioShack and the Gap.

In a reversal of the late 1990s, young workers are being jettisoned right and left as companies make more room for older people many previously thought of as corporate has-beens. As opportunities for younger workers become more scarce, their elders are staying on or returning to work, often desperate to rebuild diminished retirement savings.

Traditional unemployment measures don't capture the challenge for young and mid-career workers, who are flocking to national job fairs in an often futile search for work. They don't include people who have become discouraged and dropped out of the labor force. A better statistic is the share of the population in a given age group that has a job, for which even a small drop is meaningful.

Older Fare Better

So how are different cohorts doing by that measure? At the height of the boom in early 2000, 88% of all men in the U.S. from the ages of 20 to 44, excluding those in the military, jail and other institutions, had jobs. By September 2002, only 85% had jobs. For women 20 to 44, the employed share fell from a peak of 73.5% in early 2000 to 70.6% in September 2002.

Although women aged 45 to 54 fared slightly better -- 73.5% of them remained employed, a small drop from 73.9% -- their male counterparts were hard hit: 84.8% of them had jobs, down from 85.9% a year earlier. Surprisingly, older workers are the only ones who have done well. The share of men 55 to 64 with jobs rose from 65.9% to 67.2% over the past year, and the share of women 55 to 64 with jobs grew from 51.7% to 54.4%.

Things are likely to get worse in the months ahead as companies cut jobs to restore profitability. Sluggish economic growth is the root of the problem. "We're looking for the continuation of a grudging, difficult, gradual recovery, with a not-insignificant possibility of a double dip" into recession, says Michael D. Andrews, chief U.S. economist for WestLB Global Financial Markets.

Stuck in the Middle

The bloodbath on Wall Street is a telling, if extreme, case of the plight of young and mid-career workers. Job cuts at brokerages since the bear market began are even deeper than after the 1987 stock market crash. All told, an estimated 15% of jobs that existed at the industry's 2001 peak will have been eliminated by yearend. It will likely be years before many of those jobs return, leaving people who've been laid off with little prospect of working again in their field.

And even when those jobs do return, they'll be filled with new strivers, says veteran Wall Street pay consultant Alan Johnson. Brokerages hire scads of young people, only a few of whom ever reach the top. "The people above 45 are more likely to be senior management -- and they are the ones making the layoffs," says Guy Moszkowski, a financial-services analyst at Salomon Smith Barney.

But Wall Street is hardly the only street in America filled with the abruptly jobless. Many younger people flocked to technology and telecom companies that have been devastated by the capital-spending slump. The once-mushrooming info-tech business will add virtually no jobs this year, according to the Information Technology Association of America.

Outsourced Out

Why are young and mid-career workers bearing the brunt of the cutbacks? One reason is that many got bigger raises than old-timers during the boom, so they're no longer much cheaper to employ. At the same time, they often lack the deep institutional knowledge and personal ties with clients and customers that are especially valuable in tough times. Says Michael Recca, president of Sky Capital LLC, a startup brokerage firm: "Everybody in this market prefers a veteran."

The 20-to-44 group has other woes to contend with, too. Age-discrimination rules, by shielding older workers, may end up disproportionately exposing younger ones to layoffs. Young people have been whacked by layoffs in unionized businesses such as heavy manufacturing, airlines, and phone companies, where the least senior are often the first to go.

Even global outsourcing may play a role. Gartner Inc. researcher Frances Karamouzis says a New York company that recently laid off 500 people is retaining its generally older software system designers while dumping its younger coders and programmers. Says Karamouzis: "The work is going off to India, where they get much better value."

Back to School

Many laid-off workers, realizing that the jobs they lost may never return, are striking out in new directions. Dan Arol Jahns, 32, who lost his six-figure job at Goldman, Sachs & Co. in August 2001, chased a lifelong dream of becoming an actor. He first found work playing a chess piece at a Toys 'R' Us Inc. store opening. Since then, he has landed roles on stage and TV.

Most, though, are more prosaic. A record 31,000 people took the Foreign Service exam this year, more than double last year's total. The number of those taking the law-school placement test is up 17% this year, and B-school applications for this fall's class were up 25% to 30%.

Applicants had better hope conditions improve by the time they get out: Only 70% of the graduates of BusinessWeek's top 30 business schools landed jobs by graduation last spring -- a lower percentage than during the last recession. "We expect [2003] is going to be another tough year," says Kim B. Clark, dean of Harvard Business School, where nearly 20% of 2002 grads had still not found work by graduation.

'Attractive Again'

Only workers nearing retirement age are faring well: A greater percentage of those over 55 are working today than a year ago. In part, that's because older workers are prized for their experience and stability: "It's not at all surprising that we're seeing people who have come from an Old Economy set of values becoming more attractive again now," says Barry Honig, president of New Jersey-based executive-search firm Honig International.

Companies such as AMR Corp., parent of American Airlines, are trying to retain older workers as they cut jobs because of the brain drain they suffered in the past from offering early-retirement incentives. They also want to avoid the high upfront costs of employee buyouts.

Smashed Nest Eggs

But for the silver-haired generation, rising employment is not entirely by choice. Many are staying on the job or reentering the workforce because they need the money: The bear market has smashed their nest eggs. Shel Hart, a vice-president at staffing firm Spherion Corp., says 40% of executives aged 55 and older who are applying for jobs now are doing so because of damage to their retirement portfolios. James Alexander, 55, retired from Westinghouse in April 2001, but a year later, after losing big in stocks, moved from Pensacola, Fla., to Sandusky, Ohio, to take a job as a plant manager at a consumer-products company -- at a 30% cut in compensation.

Young people who can't find jobs and older people who can't afford to quit: All in all, it's not a pretty picture. But until the economy revs up, it's a fact of working life.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Government
KEYWORDS: globalism; recession; thebusheconomy
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-94 next last

1 posted on 10/28/2002 12:17:35 PM PST by Willie Green
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To: Willie Green
Don't look here for help
2 posted on 10/28/2002 12:22:22 PM PST by B4Ranch
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To: Willie Green
Whaaa. The job markets a little tough. We've been living with the parents after grad school, but things will turn up.
3 posted on 10/28/2002 12:23:35 PM PST by fuente
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To: Willie Green
Fricking move then!! Malene Comes and her husband lives in CA - That tells you all you need to know.

As Gray-out gets reelected things will only get worse.

4 posted on 10/28/2002 12:30:13 PM PST by ServesURight
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To: Willie Green
They made 120K in one year, apparently have no children, their rent is only 12K a year and they're taking food from charity?

How infantile are these overgrown children? What exactly did they blow their money on? Food, clothes and trips? Are they sorority girls fresh out of college?

I really have no sympathy.

5 posted on 10/28/2002 12:34:54 PM PST by wideawake
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To: Willie Green
Boo hoo! They can't go out for dinner every night any more! These crybabies (including the writer) have no idea how well they have it compared to the 1982 recession and the 1990 recession. When they find a headhunter they've worked with who won't even shop their resumes around because "it just isn't worth my time now", then they're approaching the depths of 1990-1991.
6 posted on 10/28/2002 12:35:41 PM PST by jiggyboy
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To: Willie Green
I have a lot of friends who spent 10k on things like MCSE certifications looking to change careers that are now scratching their heads and wondering why they did it. I have a friend who was a $70,000 a year "Technology Consultant" who recently took a job as a help-desk worker for $12 an hour. I'd say the worm has turned just a bit for tech workers.
7 posted on 10/28/2002 12:43:08 PM PST by SoDak
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To: Willie Green
At the height of the boom in early 2000, 88% of all men in the U.S. from the ages of 20 to 44, excluding those in the military, jail and other institutions, had jobs. By September 2002, only 85% had jobs. For women 20 to 44, the employed share fell from a peak of 73.5% in early 2000 to 70.6% in September 2002.

This doesn't sound like a disaster to me. What we have is effectively a 3% drop in employment. Yeah, it sucks to be one of the three percent, but the vast majority of people are still working. (Why wouldn't they count those in the military as working?)

8 posted on 10/28/2002 12:52:15 PM PST by SamAdams76
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To: SamAdams76
(Why wouldn't they count those in the military as working?)

(Why wouldn't they count those in the military as working?)

I would hope that they'd exclude ALL government employees.

9 posted on 10/28/2002 12:58:13 PM PST by Willie Green
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To: Willie Green
Businesses not whizzing money away at the latest hiring fad and instead looking to people who know what they are doing.

What a novel idea.
10 posted on 10/28/2002 1:04:19 PM PST by El Sordo
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To: Willie Green
Nobody Loves You When You're Down and Out

Once I lived the life of a millionaire
Spent all my money, didn't have a care
Takin' my friends out for a mighty good time
Champagne and whiskey, gin and wine

Who'd ever think I could fall so low
Ain't got no friends and no place to go
If i ever lay my hand on a dollar again
I'm gonna squeeze it till the eagle grins

'Cause nobody loves you
When you're down and out
In your pocket not one penny
And your friends, you haven't any

But if I ever get back on my feet again
Everybody's gonna be my long lost friends

It's mighty strange but without a doubt
Nobody wants you,
I got to tell ya
Nobody needs you
Nobody loves you when you're down and out.
When you're down and out

11 posted on 10/28/2002 1:06:49 PM PST by Maceman
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To: El Sordo
What a novel idea.

There's a whole generation who've never heard of it.

Similarly, they are unaware that you can make popcorn on top of the stove.

12 posted on 10/28/2002 1:07:41 PM PST by Willie Green
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To: SoDak
10K? Hah! Chickenfeed!

I'm now paying off almost 60K in student loans for the MBA I got two years ago. Stupidest damned mistake I made in my life. It represents exactly one line on my résumé and has had no appreciable effect on my job hunt.

It would have been a better investment to spend the money on lottery tickets.

13 posted on 10/28/2002 1:15:16 PM PST by Goetz_von_Berlichingen
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To: SoDak
"Technology Consultant" who recently took a job as a help-desk worker for $12 an hour.

But that beats a Walmart job for $6 an hour. At least he was able to get a job unlike tool & die makers, factory workers, programmers, etc.

14 posted on 10/28/2002 1:18:29 PM PST by FITZ
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To: wideawake
I have a little sympathy and I worry about how long we're going to have a middle class with the sharply falling wages we're seeing. The only thing I don't have sympathy about is anyone who believed the 90s economy was good or that this economy we're in is based on anything solid has their eyes closed. The 90s was a good time to pay off all debts, learn to live on little and pay attention to where we're headed.
15 posted on 10/28/2002 1:28:15 PM PST by FITZ
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To: jiggyboy
"Boo Hoo". What unkind words you have for these people. They are working -- not asking for your help.
16 posted on 10/28/2002 1:36:10 PM PST by Mini-14
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To: El Sordo
In part, that's because older workers are prized for their experience and stability: "It's not at all surprising that we're seeing people who have come from an Old Economy set of values becoming more attractive again now,"

It is not just an old "Set of values". It is being educated in basics, before the NEA managed to start teaching "Feeling good about Failure", rather than teaching people to succeed.

It is being able to make change mentally, and knowing how to do long division and communicate in writing, and have some basic general Science.

Now, we are awarding PhD's in (Hahaha) "Urban Studies".

I know stockbrokers and dot-commers. What special skills are needed for either, that a bright 14-year-old could not acquire? How to fleece widows by churning their portfolios, or how to hire a thousand people to "manage a WEBSITE"?

Sorry, but these were never real jobs in the first place. And if a child-free couple made a few hundred thousand in the good years, and saved nothing, while having few expenses, now they know more...and have learned more then a hundred thousand in "Feel Good about Failure" tuition could ever have taught them. The good ones will rise stronger for it, the bad ones will be doing what they should have been in the first place.

17 posted on 10/28/2002 1:38:41 PM PST by Gorzaloon
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To: Goetz_von_Berlichingen
I guess that answers the basic question I've been pondering about completing an MBA part-time to enhance my career. I've got several computer-related certs, but all I have is a BA degree in business right now. I've been thinking about going back to school and earning an MBA or perhaps even going to law school.
18 posted on 10/28/2002 1:50:56 PM PST by SoDak
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To: SamAdams76
You are missing the big picture. There are plenty of jobs, but they are being shipped offshore to foreign countries. How does this effect the economy? It's not just unemployment. It's thousands of workers who make good money that is longer going into our economy. It's going into the economies of India, Pakistan, China, and Russia to name a few.
19 posted on 10/28/2002 3:08:24 PM PST by grb
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To: Goetz_von_Berlichingen
My MBA won me the university teaching position I have held for the last 20 years. Smartest thing I ever did. I was able to raise my kids and teach. I am still an instructor; take a big hit in salary relative to the tenured professors, but I have had quite a good job, on the whole, of just the sort I want. Sure, I might have made more money doing something else, but the last 20 years have suited my needs just fine.
20 posted on 10/28/2002 3:25:17 PM PST by Irene Adler
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To: grb
There are plenty of jobs, but they are being shipped offshore to foreign countries. How does this effect the economy? It's not just unemployment. It's thousands of workers who make good money that is longer going into our economy. It's going into the economies of India, Pakistan, China, and Russia to name a few.

I hear this a lot but the other side of the equation is never mentioned. Consider this scenario:

A company employs 100 people who make an average of $40,000 a year to sell a widget that retails for $100. The company sells 100,000 of these widgets a year. That's an annual payroll of $4,000,000 a year but the consumers have to pay a total of $10,000,000 for these 100,000 widgets.

Now the company moves the factory overseas to take advantage of lower labor costs and that widget now retails for just $40. So while $4,000,000 a year in local income is lost, consumers now have an extra $6,000,000 in their pockets to spend on other things because they are paying 60% less for these widgets. That extra $6,000,000 a year could be used in local restaurants, home improvements (putting contractors to work) or to buy boats (putting more boatmakers to work).

This is a simplistic scenario to be sure but bottom line is that cheaper consumer goods is not always a bad thing. And the money saved by cheaper consumer goods is often spent someplace else (or invested). Imagine how much more expensive everything would be if all consumer goods were manufactured here in the U.S.A. by factory workers at union scale.

I would prefer that manufacturing stay in America too. But between government taxation and regulation, not to mention the artificially set wages forced by unions, you can't really blame them all that much.

21 posted on 10/28/2002 3:27:01 PM PST by SamAdams76
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To: Gorzaloon
And if a child-free couple made a few hundred thousand in the good years, and saved nothing, while having few expenses, now they know more...and have learned more then a hundred thousand in "Feel Good about Failure" tuition could ever have taught them. The good ones will rise stronger for it, the bad ones will be doing what they should have been in the first place.

Thank you. Well said.

22 posted on 10/28/2002 3:31:24 PM PST by valkyrieanne
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To: jiggyboy
These crybabies (including the writer) have no idea how well they have it compared to the 1982 recession and the 1990 recession.

My salary got downsized by 1/3 in the 1990 recession. I was able to continue working without missing a pay check which helped a bit. My pay got back to normal within a couple years. It didn't take me long to figure out to have a rainy day reserve fund..

23 posted on 10/28/2002 3:39:11 PM PST by EVO X
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To: Irene Adler
An MBA twenty years ago is not the same as an MBA today. This is true of all academic credentials. They have been devalued by over-abundance.
24 posted on 10/28/2002 3:46:03 PM PST by Goetz_von_Berlichingen
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To: SoDak
I have a lot of friends who spent 10k on things like MCSE certifications looking to change careers that are now scratching their heads and wondering why they did it.

I'm one of those fools! In 1999 I spent close to $11,000 on my MCSE at Boston University. Two nights a week and Saturday mornings in school for nearly an entire year and a whole lot of cramming in between. Just looking at those MCSE ExamCram books sends shivers up my spine!

When I graduated in early 2000, I was very fortunate to realize that the house of cards was coming down and I held on to my current job.

Can't say the training was a total waste though as I have occasion to put it into practice at work and it definitely has made my position there a little more secure. But I still can't look at an MCSE ExamCram book without cringing and regretting all the money I spent on it.

25 posted on 10/28/2002 3:47:57 PM PST by SamAdams76
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To: SoDak
"I have a lot of friends who spent 10k on things like MCSE certifications looking to change careers that are now scratching their heads and wondering why they did it."

Thanks. I feel better, now. I ONLY paid $3,500 for the MCSE certification.

Signed,
Scratching my head career changer
26 posted on 10/28/2002 3:57:26 PM PST by BillyJack
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To: SoDak
Unfortunately a lot of jobs formerly open only to those with CS or EE degrees went to clueless folks who went to a 6 month "tech school" and managed to get "certified". HR types generally aren't bright enough to understand why hiring these people is a bad idea. This could have only happened during a period like the 90s when companies had convinced venture capitalists that "earnings didn't matter". To be fair I've run across more than a few degreed programmers and engineers who didn't know their a$$ from a whole in the ground. But now that software jobs are no longer trendy, hopefully the clueless will go back to studying mass communications and urban studies. That will leave tech jobs to tech-minded individuals.
27 posted on 10/28/2002 4:09:21 PM PST by StockAyatollah
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To: SoDak
Towards the end of my expensive and pointless sojourn in the halls of pseudo-academe, the man in charge of the university's "Career Center" gave us a little talk emphasising the importance of "networking." More important than your GPA, or the courses you took, is WHO you know. He re-enforced this by confessing (proudly !!!) that he got HIS job as head of the Career Center because of networking, rather than credentials.

Aside from a handful of high profile business schools, the MBA is objectively worthless. And what makes a degree from Stanford, Wharton, or Harvard valuable is not the content of the coursework, but the fact that all the "right" people attend, so you get to rub elbows and exchange business cards with the optimates.

I once attended a w(h)ine-n-cheese gathering of the alumni from my business school and the desparation was palpable. It reminded me of a singles bar in the '70's at 3AM on a Sunday morning. The room was filled with people who were all at some level aware that they had just wasted two or three years of their lives and an equivalent tens of thousands of dollars, yet they hoped to be discovered like starlets at the soda fountain. Pathetic.

If ever you feel tempted to purchase an indulgence, or enroll in an MBA program, drop me a line and let me dissuade you. Your money would be better spent in day-trading or as seed capital to set up your own business. Or if you want to really improve your chances in the business world, spend the money on golf lessons and get yourself a membership in a toney country club.

My degree was a double major in management and information systems. At this point, I am so disgusted with the job hunt that I am researching the possibility of going into business for myself . . . as a tailor and costumer.

28 posted on 10/28/2002 4:13:36 PM PST by Goetz_von_Berlichingen
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To: Gorzaloon
now they know more...and have learned more then a hundred thousand in "Feel Good about Failure" tuition could ever have taught them. The good ones will rise stronger for it, the bad ones will be doing what they should have been in the first place.

Reality!

29 posted on 10/28/2002 4:32:20 PM PST by PFKEY
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To: PFKEY
I have been contemplating returning to school for another degree. For some reason I felt that is what I needed to do. I consider myself lucky to have survived yet another round of downsizing. I appreciate the candor with which all of you are telling your stories or offering suggestions.
30 posted on 10/28/2002 4:50:58 PM PST by Unknown Freeper
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To: Willie Green
It is cheaper to hire an H1-B visa immigrant, since there is no social security employer contribution costs, they are exempt. That means that american workers cost $8000.00 more to hire, and that could make the difference between profit or not. If all amerians were replaced by foreigners with visas, it would add up to a substantial savings.
31 posted on 10/28/2002 5:02:54 PM PST by waterstraat
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To: waterstraat
If all amerians were replaced by foreigners with visas, it would add up to a substantial savings depression and/or revolution.
32 posted on 10/28/2002 5:05:06 PM PST by clamper1797
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To: waterstraat
Those under the age of 50 are far more likely to see all of the dead aliens and crashed flying saucers out in Area 51 than a Social Security check that won't bounce. But they keep getting to pay FICA taxes--or get priced out of a job by the employer contribution to FICA.

Thank you, FDR.

33 posted on 10/28/2002 5:05:59 PM PST by Poohbah
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To: clamper1797
If all amerians were replaced by foreigners with visas, it would add up to a substantial savings depression and/or revolution.

There will be no revolution, the black segment has already been replaced by the hispanics as a voting block to be catered to. The white americans will also become a minority of insignificance at election time, and certainly in no position to start a revolution - they will be so outnumbered by the year 2100, that it would be a joke. The old European customs and religions will die off in America along with the old white guys.

Massive immigration keeps prices low, profits high, and labor cheap. The true price of labor, is far far below what our previous closed economy used to have to pay. American companies no longer have to pay an inflated wage, and they wont. No company in their right mind will pay more than the world price of labor. In all likihood, unions will all but disappear except for the service industry, e.g. teachers, police, etc, and manufacturing will soon disappear entirely from the American continent.

There are hundreds of millions of workers in INdia, China, Mexico, and Eastern Europe that are ready and willing to take the jobs that Americans do not want. The Republicans and the Democrats are both for huge increases in immigration to take these jobs. The immigrants seem to have no problems at all finding plenty of work, thousands of them come here each day , each week, each month, day in and day out. By 2050, with current trends continuing, America will have 400 million people, and by the end of the century it will have a billion.

There are currently only a very few people who want to change the way we are headed, and each year they are even more outnumbered. The days of young americans earning $100,000 are gone forever.

34 posted on 10/28/2002 5:28:21 PM PST by waterstraat
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To: Black Birch
It didn't take me long to figure out to have a rainy day reserve fund.

A point well taken, and deserves repeating. Whoever is blessed enough to have a job in this current economy is a fool if they aren't socking away every extra dollar they make.

I have a steady job, and my wife and I are putting away a 9-12 month supply of cash in a separate savings account (this ENTIRELY apart from the 401k, IRA, etc). We are nearly 2/3 of the way there. Until we have that in place, we are not buying ANYTHING we don't need. No dining out except special occasions, and no movies or magazine subscriptions. We get videos from the library and live on the cheap. I've forgone buying a new TV to replace our 12-year old model, and we are buying our clothes from TJ Max and Ross Dress for Less. In today's economy, you are a fool not to save.

35 posted on 10/28/2002 5:28:57 PM PST by fogarty
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To: Unknown Freeper
I've been in the tech industry for 10 years and have not been affected negetively in the early 90's when I got into this and this past few years of the tech meltdown. My division/department had its first ever round of layoffs earlier this year but its impact was light.

As anyone who remains in the field can attest to. The attitude has changed significantly from one of security to one of gratitude.

In some was that is not a bad thing.

36 posted on 10/28/2002 5:30:02 PM PST by PFKEY
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To: SamAdams76
I was lucky enough to weasel my way into a good job I wasn't really qualified for. All I did was read a lot, had no certs or anything. I've begun collecting them now, so that I wouldn't have to worry so much about convincing the next guy (if there is a next guy, I love my company) that I could do the job.
37 posted on 10/28/2002 6:59:23 PM PST by SoDak
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To: StockAyatollah
I guess I'm somewhat guilty then. I have a business degree, not CS, but I have a staff of 10 CompSci grads who bring the big problems to me, because I've weathered the storms over the years, read constantly, and have seen a lot of real world problems, and most importantly, I still know how to deal with old technology that permeates every IT shop.
38 posted on 10/28/2002 7:06:39 PM PST by SoDak
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To: Goetz_von_Berlichingen
Wow, the wisdom is appreciated. Good luck in that. I feel a career change coming sometime too. I like my company, but I feel like doing something different, and am getting weary of computers. Who knows what it will be though, I certainly don't.
39 posted on 10/28/2002 7:10:24 PM PST by SoDak
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To: fogarty
Cool, sounds like you've been listening to Dave Ramsey too.
40 posted on 10/28/2002 7:12:53 PM PST by SoDak
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To: fogarty
A point well taken, and deserves repeating. Whoever is blessed enough to have a job in this current economy is a fool if they aren't socking away every extra dollar they make.

Actually, this is the WORST thing for everyone to do. It guarantees a downward spiral (the "Paradox of Thrift"). Right now people should be digging into savings and taking on debt to buy things in anticipation of better times ahead.

Unfortunately, during the go-go, cocaine powered Clinton years, NO ONE saved like they should have. During the years of above average economic growth, debt of all kinds went up. Everyone gambled their money in the stock market. It was ridiculous. My wife's decorator was daytrading, for crying out loud!?! One time, she mentioned a highflying tech stock she bought and I decided to see how much research she'd done. PE? Didn't know. Competitors? Didn't know. Market share? Didn't know. Apparently, the stock chart showed a "cup and handle" pattern which gave a buy signal. Of course, she's blown all her gains and lost most of her principal since the bubble burst.

41 posted on 10/28/2002 7:44:12 PM PST by mikegi
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To: mikegi
Gimme a break. You're encouraging people to go into debt? In times such as this? What you're saying is typical of wall street hucksters and money-grubbers...."keep building up that credit card debt", "don't worry about being good stewards of your families' finances", "keep right on spending."

I've had enough of this financial drivel that passes for patriotism. The wise ones are storing away their grain for future storms on the horizon. You'd best do likewise, else you're gonna be like the proverbial grasshopper.

42 posted on 10/28/2002 8:25:21 PM PST by fogarty
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To: SoDak
Actually, I never heard of Dave Ramsey. I just am following my father's advice passed down from his dad. Those who are wise store up grain during good times AND bad - because bad times have a tendency to get worse.
43 posted on 10/28/2002 8:27:53 PM PST by fogarty
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To: fogarty
I heard the same thing from my dad, but it's sort of a lost wisdom these days. My dad was a tight Norwegian farmer, and hated nothing more than debt. He told me never to borrow a dime, unless it was for a house. Dave Ramsey has a nationally syndicated radio show, and essentially offers the same advice.
44 posted on 10/28/2002 8:43:23 PM PST by SoDak
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To: Willie Green
The magic formula: spend less than one makes.

Trajan88; TAMU Class of '88; Law Hall (may it R.I.P.) Ramp 9 Mule; f.u.p.

45 posted on 10/28/2002 8:52:29 PM PST by Trajan88
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To: mikegi
The Paradox of Thrift has been removed from the newest editions of Dr. Samuelson's Economics. It is a Keynsian theory that even the Keynsians have discarded.
46 posted on 10/28/2002 9:37:34 PM PST by Lee_Atwater
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To: Trajan88
Amen! Too many Americans live beyond their means. The wiser folks have been saving all along and are even now putting away funds for the future.

Going into debt now is foolish and at this point in time, nearly suicidal.

47 posted on 10/29/2002 6:03:19 AM PST by fogarty
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To: waterstraat
"There will be no revolution..."

IMHO, a revolution is unavoidable unless big-time changes are made ASAP. Loss of jobs and wealth to other countries is only one factor in the growing discontent in this nation, but it's a big one. It's not quite "haves" and "have nots" yet, but when more people find their jobs outsourced in order to keep fewer and fewer investors happy, that's a recipe for disaster. Hopefully it won't come to that, but I don't see much to be optimistic about.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

48 posted on 10/29/2002 6:59:32 AM PST by wku man
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To: waterstraat
"There will be no revolution..."

IMHO, a revolution is unavoidable unless big-time changes are made ASAP. Loss of jobs and wealth to other countries is only one factor in the growing discontent in this nation, but it's a big one. It's not quite "haves" and "have nots" yet, but when more people find their jobs outsourced in order to keep fewer and fewer investors happy, that's a recipe for disaster. Hopefully it won't come to that, but I don't see much to be optimistic about.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

49 posted on 10/29/2002 6:59:58 AM PST by wku man
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To: waterstraat
"There will be no revolution..."

IMHO, a revolution is unavoidable unless big-time changes are made ASAP. Loss of jobs and wealth to other countries is only one factor in the growing discontent in this nation, but it's a big one. It's not quite "haves" and "have nots" yet, but when more people find their jobs outsourced in order to keep fewer and fewer investors happy, that's a recipe for disaster. Hopefully it won't come to that, but I don't see much to be optimistic about.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

50 posted on 10/29/2002 6:59:59 AM PST by wku man
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