Take A Stand: Vote against H1B, Boycott H1B Companies

Self | November 2, 2002 | FormerLurker

[discostu]

you're off in never-never land here. It just simply does not make sense to apply for TEN times as many H1B programmer analysts as you've got engineers in your entire opperation. Doesn't make sense, won't make sense, can't make sense, must be somebody elses' screw-up.

And second your site doesn't HAVE software engineer listed, it has "computer: programmer/analyst" which in most places is the same thing with the same salary.

[discostu]

First off, to me it was an aside, not that big a deal, something worth noting and moving on. If other people insist on tilting at windmills that's not my problem.

But your attempt at an explaination doesn't make sense either. It's a matter of scope, the alleged applications in question are for 3120 programmer/analysts working in America but not born here. According to the info FL found the company has 300 engineers (which since they do software as well as hardware is probably a group that includes but is not restricted to the programer analysts) in their entire opperation, in America and otherwise, born in America and otherwise. By any form of logical analysis that second group should be the larger of the two, and definitely not 1/10 the first. The only way it makes sense is if they've laid off at least 90% of their enginneering force inbetween when the filing was made and now. Or something is being heavily misinterpretted.

I've seen the stats, I'm not impressed. So there's 1 million H1Bs in the country, and we have what 150 maybe 180 million working Americans. Just not impressed. Now I've admitted that in certain states, which are mostly places I'd never live any way, it IS a problem. Just not nationally, and not the run around and panic crisis so many people insist it is.

Also note that the VAST majority of the H1Bs AREN'T in software or tech. They're all over the place, scattered throughout the job market.

[FormerLurker]

you're off in never-never land here. It just simply does not make sense to apply for TEN times as many H1B programmer analysts as you've got engineers in your entire opperation. Doesn't make sense, won't make sense, can't make sense, must be somebody elses' screw-up.

Of COURSE it doesn't make sense, that's why DCM should be investigated. If all is well, then fine, move on. If not, then we've just nabbed ourselves a bunch of crooks.

And second your site doesn't HAVE software engineer listed, it has "computer: programmer/analyst" which in most places is the same thing with the same salary.

First off, it's not MY site. I've simply have brought attention to its existance.

Secondly, although the search criteria list at the site doesn't include a software engineer in its list doesn't mean that it isn't a job title.

For example, do a search on COMPUWARE for the year 2001. You'll see that they've filed applications for SOFTWARE ENGINEERS, PROJECT MANAGERS, AND PROGRAMMER ANALYSTS.

Next, do a search on RAYTHEON for 2001 and see what you come up with. Sort of a scary thought that indentured servants from China and elsewhere are developing US DEFENSE SYSTEMS!!

[discostu]

Calm down dude, you're screaming all over the place.

Again I go back to my first position, DCM isn't even close to the only company showing up this way on the site. The most likely explanation is that there's something wrong with either the data or how it's being massaged. Especially when you factor in the multiple identical listings in the same city.

I never said "software engineer" wasn't a title. I said it's not a title SEARCHABLE in this database (and I'm guessing not a title that DOL considers to be distinct for H1B purposes. You made a big deal out of the jobs being listed as programmer/analysts rather than the supposed more profitable software engineer. I was simply pointing out that, at least within the limitations of that site, it's not possible to list jobs as software engineer. Whether or not it's a valid job title out in the rest of the world has zero bearing on a discussion of the data on your site (and I say "your site" because you pointed it out, I'm afraid readers might think "this site" refers to FR and I can't remember the name of the site in question and am too damn lazy to look it up... let me re-emphasise that to everybody I am NOT implying in any way the FormerLurker has anymore association to the site he linked to than the link itself indicates).

[FormerLurker]

First off, to me it was an aside, not that big a deal, something worth noting and moving on. If other people insist on tilting at windmills that's not my problem.

In your misguided attempt to discredit this subject, you've actually brought attention to possible criminal activity. You should be proud of yourself. I find it amusing at least...

But your attempt at an explaination doesn't make sense either. It's a matter of scope, the alleged applications in question are for 3120 programmer/analysts working in America but not born here. According to the info FL found the company has 300 engineers (which since they do software as well as hardware is probably a group that includes but is not restricted to the programer analysts) in their entire opperation, in America and otherwise, born in America and otherwise.

And that would never have seen the light of day if the records weren't available to the public. The sheer fact that they claimed they needed 30 "programmer/analysists" at each of their many sales offices should raise a few eyebrows. But it is ENTIRELY possible that they thought nobody would notice, and obviously up to now nobody has...

By any form of logical analysis that second group should be the larger of the two, and definitely not 1/10 the first. The only way it makes sense is if they've laid off at least 90% of their enginneering force inbetween when the filing was made and now. Or something is being heavily misinterpretted.

That or there is some serious fraud going on. It DOES occur, and the GAO has said that it does. NO enforcement actions are ever taken though, so why SHOULDN'T companies lie on their applications?

I've seen the stats, I'm not impressed. So there's 1 million H1Bs in the country, and we have what 150 maybe 180 million working Americans.

And the H1-B workers in the computer industry occupations outnumber other occupations 15 to 1.

Also note that the VAST majority of the H1Bs AREN'T in software or tech. They're all over the place, scattered throughout the job market.

That is grossly inaccurate and untrue. It appears to me at least that you have an agenda here. If you are simply misguided and uninformed, why don't you take a look at the following link. Perhaps it'll enlighten you.

Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage

[eno_]

Lots of people have re-tooled themselves for a good skill and found no opportunity in it. Beware of 2nd and 3rd tier college "professional" programs. An easy way to burn $5k on your way to yesterdays technology. Read Slashdot and GotDotNet. Linux/Apache/Python and .NET are the two future technologies, though you might be able to make a go of it with the Cocoa stuff on OS X. I hear its good but have no experience myself (and I used to be one of the world's experts on Mac programming - back in the days even before MacApp... I just wish I could target which brain cells to kill when drinking).

[eno_]

Lots of people have re-tooled themselves for a good skill and found no opportunity in it. Beware of 2nd and 3rd tier college "professional" programs. An easy way to burn $5k on your way to yesterdays technology. Read Slashdot and GotDotNet. Linux/Apache/Python and .NET are the two future technologies, though you might be able to make a go of it with the Cocoa stuff on OS X. I hear its good but have no experience myself (and I used to be one of the world's experts on Mac programming - back in the days even before MacApp... I just wish I could target which brain cells to kill when drinking).

[discostu]

It wasn't misguided, given that all my ammo has come from links you've provided I'd hardly say I was attempting to discredit anything, and gulliblity isn't criminal. There's nothing to be proud of or amused by, the data sucks, I'm in QA that kind of stuff sticks out.

There's nothing to come to light. Look it's a simple marter of smarts. If you're going to fraudulently file 3000 H1B applications (for reasons you have yet to figure out, what is to be gained by having permission to imports thousands of workers you're not going to import, that's one of the reasons I'm not buying that it's DCM's fault, you've presented no worthwhile motive) you don't make it so painfully obvious. Rule #1 of commiting fraud is to hide it. By filing 104 applications on the same day, some to the same city, they'd be maximizing they're opportunity to raise red flags. And AGAIN I'll re-iterate the very important FACT you keep ignoring:
DCM is not even close to the only company listing this way, I gave you another example that you've completely ignored all day and there's plenty more where that came from.
Just doesn't make sense for ALL of these companies to be fraudulently filing unnecessary H1Bs and to be doing so in such an idiotic and easily detected way. Doesn't add up. It's much more likely that the problem lies in how somebody is processing the data, maybe DOL maybe zozom or whoevers running the web site in question. If DCM was the only one I'd be with you, but they're not and not by a long shot. I don't think they claimed any such thing, I think crappy data is making it look that way.

Was the other fraud done like this? None of what I've seen (again coming from link YOU provided) works this way. Give me a motive, what's to be gained with permission to import 3000 H1B workers and zero intention to use them?

You've shown me nothing that gives a job category distribution of H1Bs. The questionable sites querying method and limited results set isn't useful for determining that information.

hey there's a favorite uselss link. Sorry I've gone through the process of trying to hire tech workers during the boom. The shortage was no myth, at least not here.

[FormerLurker]

Have you ever heard of DCM Technologies? Check out the series of posts that we have going here on that subject..

[discostu]

Here's some fun to show you more of why I think the problem is in how somebody is handling this data, I did 3 searches, they were all for H1B's, Computer: Programmer/analysts, by whole state, 2001 for the year, 50 results per page. I did this once to AZ, once to CA and the last time to NY. Then looked for duplicates on JUST the first page, here's my results, unless otherwise noted these are complete duplicates at least within the presented data (so same job title, salary, start date, end date, and same number of aliens):
Arizona
ABCOM CONSULTING AND TRNG LLC 4 listings 10 people Phoenix
ANGELICA'S RECORD DISTRIBUTOR 2 listings 1 person Phoenix
APAR INFOTECH CORPORATION 4 listings 20 people Phoenix
ARCSIGHT INC 1 listing 5 people and 3 listing for 1 person Tempe
AVNET INC 2 listings 3 people Chandler
AXSYS AUTOMATION 3 listing 1 person Scottsdale

California
12 TECHNOLOGIES INC 3 listing 5 people SF Area (other listings for different dates and/ or places)
3COM CORPORATION good proof of non-duplicates, same date entries vary in salary and/ or locations, no true dups
3CX INC 2 entries 3 people San Jose
3D INTERNATIONAL LLC 3 listings 1 person Van Nuys

New York
@ THOUGHT TECHNOLOGIES LLC 2 listings 10 people New York
4 HOUR WIRELESS 2 listings 1 person Plainview
4U SERVICES INC 2 listings 1 person New York
57TH AVENUE MARKET INC 2 listings 1 person Corona
9 BROTHERS BUILDING SUPPLY C0 2 listings 1 person Brentwood
9 THOUGHT TECHNOLOGIES LLC 2 listings 10 people New York
9278 COMMUNICATIONS INC 2 listings 10 people Bronx
A I CREDIT CORPORATION 2 listings 1 person New York
ABACUS SOFTWARE GROUP 2 listings 1 person New York
ABB TURBOCHARGER CO 2 listings 1 person North Brunswick
ABCOM CONSULTING AND TRNG LLC 2 listings 10 people Buffalo
ABN AMRO INC mixed in there are 3 listings identical listings for 2 people New York, they've got a bunch on that date though could be crappy paperwork

Now either all of these companies are pulling a fast one or there's something seriously screwed up in the data handling.

[FormerLurker]

Calm down dude, you're screaming all over the place.

Nah, I'm just highlighting that which I REALLY want to bring attention to...

Again I go back to my first position, DCM isn't even close to the only company showing up this way on the site.

Goes to show that fraud is rampant.

The most likely explanation is that there's something wrong with either the data or how it's being massaged.

The data isn't "massaged". It is an exact duplicate of the DOL database. If there's a problem, it's DOL's problem.

Especially when you factor in the multiple identical listings in the same city.

Again, fraud is rampant.

I never said "software engineer" wasn't a title.

I didn't say you did. I was bringing to your attention the fact that although it may not be a searchable category from with the selection criteria list, it is still returned in the title when an application utilizes that designation. Compuware was just one example. Go back and read my last post a little closer, maybe you'll understand if you take the time to read it...

I said it's not a title SEARCHABLE in this database (and I'm guessing not a title that DOL considers to be distinct for H1B purposes.

Again, DOL DOES consider it to be a distinct designation for H1-B purposes. There ARE applications that include that title.

You made a big deal out of the jobs being listed as programmer/analysts rather than the supposed more profitable software engineer.

Which IS an example of the deceptive practices that take place. Companies DO list software engineering positions as programmer/analyst in order to pay less salary. That has been one of the abuses of the H1-B program that has been identified as such.

I was simply pointing out that, at least within the limitations of that site, it's not possible to list jobs as software engineer.

It's possible to see them. Do the search I gave you as an example.

Whether or not it's a valid job title out in the rest of the world has zero bearing on a discussion of the data on your site (and I say "your site" because you pointed it out, I'm afraid readers might think "this site" refers to FR and I can't remember the name of the site in question and am too damn lazy to look it up...

It sure DOES have a bearing in this discussion. And the name of the site is Zazona.com.

let me re-emphasise that to everybody I am NOT implying in any way the FormerLurker has anymore association to the site he linked to than the link itself indicates).

Thanks. Not that I'd be ashamed of it, as the people that put it up on the net have done an outstanding job and have provided a valuable service. I just don't want to claim credit for someone elses work.

[FormerLurker]

It wasn't misguided, given that all my ammo has come from links you've provided I'd hardly say I was attempting to discredit anything, and gulliblity isn't criminal.

You're hopping on things you see in the database as if they simply can't be true. I'd say there exists the distinct possibility that what you see IS in fact true, and indicates rampant abuses in the H1-B program.

There's nothing to be proud of or amused by, the data sucks, I'm in QA that kind of stuff sticks out.

The FACTS might suck, but complain to the DOL if you don't like the data..

There's nothing to come to light. Look it's a simple marter of smarts.

That remains to be seen.

If you're going to fraudulently file 3000 H1B applications (for reasons you have yet to figure out, what is to be gained by having permission to imports thousands of workers you're not going to import, that's one of the reasons I'm not buying that it's DCM's fault, you've presented no worthwhile motive) you don't make it so painfully obvious.

You can't be serious. You're telling me you can't figure out why someone would want 2800 more H1-B visas than they need? Well gee, what if someone wanted to make money selling visas? What if someone wanted to bring people into this country for purposes other than they list on the application? The possibilities make the mind spin..

Rule #1 of commiting fraud is to hide it. By filing 104 applications on the same day, some to the same city, they'd be maximizing they're opportunity to raise red flags.

They probably figured since none of the laws are ever enforced, they needn't bother trying to be discreet, and have subsequently become quite emboldened.

And AGAIN I'll re-iterate the very important FACT you keep ignoring: DCM is not even close to the only company listing this way, I gave you another example that you've completely ignored all day and there's plenty more where that came from.

As I said, fraud is rampant. Perhaps we SHOULD look into that other company.

Just doesn't make sense for ALL of these companies to be fraudulently filing unnecessary H1Bs and to be doing so in such an idiotic and easily detected way. Doesn't add up.

MANY things don't add up when it comes to H1-B.

It's much more likely that the problem lies in how somebody is processing the data, maybe DOL maybe zozom or whoevers running the web site in question.

That is why this needs to be looked into. The data IS from DOL. If there are discrepencies in the way the data is collected and presented, then that needs to be identified. If however, the data is correct, that needs to be identified as well.

If DCM was the only one I'd be with you, but they're not and not by a long shot. I don't think they claimed any such thing, I think crappy data is making it look that way.

Who is "they"? Again, for the n^the time, just because the numbers look "funny" doesn't mean that the data is invalid..

Was the other fraud done like this? None of what I've seen (again coming from link YOU provided) works this way. Give me a motive, what's to be gained with permission to import 3000 H1B workers and zero intention to use them?

I've already answered that, but I'll say it again. There's the chance those visas could be sold. There's also the possibility that those visas could be loaned to companies that need H1-B people but can't file for one reason or another. There's also the possibility of terrorists utilizing visas to import their people into this country. You asked.

You've shown me nothing that gives a job category distribution of H1Bs. The questionable sites querying method and limited results set isn't useful for determining that information.

Have you bothered reading the FAQ that I gave you a link to? There are reports that you can get if you get in touch with them...

hey there's a favorite uselss link. Sorry I've gone through the process of trying to hire tech workers during the boom. The shortage was no myth, at least not here.

Fine, you should know by now though that there isn't a shortage NOW. There really never was for the most part, at least not to the extent claimed.

[discostu]

The data at the site is fuqed, up one side and down the other. Just that simple. Any query will show. Who fuqed it I don't know and I don't care. You shouldn't use it as proof, you should find someplace with good data. It's been fun watching you obsess on defending their crappy data, but we're in serious retread time here. There's absolutely no reason to commit fraud in the way this data would indicate it, it's a stupid way to go about it, makes no sense, it'll get them caught, and there's no motive. Unless you can provide a motive there's no reason to continue with this.

[FormerLurker]

From what I've seen so far, the companies that you claim indicate "bad data" are all foreign companies that import people into this country. And so far, all of the legitimate US companies show no dupes.

Example:

ABCOM CONSULTING AND TRNG

That company is based in India apparently. Take a look at their webpages..

MUMBAI - RETAIL NETWORK - SERVICES DETAILS AT- BOMBAY / MUMBAI-- INDIA

Funny how they look for "programmer analysts", as in THIS directory they claim to be involved with advertising and gifts..

From Search via Alphabetical Listings:

100. Abcom Consulting Co Mumbai, India (91022)567-5770 Advertising / Promotion / Gifts

Now THAT company deserves a serious looking into I'd think.

Next, as an example we have the 3 Com corportation. Sure, they hire H1-B workers but they have different start dates as you correctly notice.

If you find any "duplicate" records for any US corporation, let us know...

[discostu]

Gimme a break. You're data is HOSED. MOTIVE provide MOTIVE. Why would a company OVER permit for H1Bs? Why would the do so blatantly in an easily detected way? WHY?

[FormerLurker]

Oops, didn't separate the links correctly...

ABCOM CONSULTING AND TRNG

That company is based in India apparently. Take a look at their webpages..

MUMBAI - RETAIL NETWORK - SERVICES DETAILS

AT- BOMBAY / MUMBAI-- INDIA

[FormerLurker]

There's absolutely no reason to commit fraud in the way this data would indicate it, it's a stupid way to go about it, makes no sense, it'll get them caught, and there's no motive.

I already gave you motives. You apparently can't believe that "business" people ever break the law.

Unless you can provide a motive there's no reason to continue with this.

Visas for rent, sale, or illegal immigration into the US. Possibly terrorist activities. Is that clear enough?

[FormerLurker]

Gimme a break. You're data is HOSED. MOTIVE provide MOTIVE. Why would a company OVER permit for H1Bs? Why would the do so blatantly in an easily detected way? WHY?

I challenge you to show us any record for a US corporation within that database that demonstrates a "duplicate". Show a duplicate for a company that ISN'T foreign. Then maybe I'll pay more attention to you...

[discostu]

No you have not provided the motive, not once. The best you've come up with was "it's fraud", fraud isn't a motive in its own right, it's a crime you commit for some reason.

OK so you're saying HUNDREDS of companies are funneling in terrorists? Companies? When any terrorist with half a brain can just wander in as a regular tourist with no help from any corporation? Try again. Something reasonable. Here's the basic problems:
1 - most of the H1B fraud I've read about revolves around UNDER reporting, to avoid the paperwork and have the deportation axe to hold over the workers head
2 - this is the exact opposite of that, obviously the reasons would have to be different, what are they
3 - there's no logical reason to over report by filing multiple identical applications, if you want to sneak 120 people into Tucson you do ONE application for 120 not FOUR for 30, so even if you find a valid reason for 2 (which you haven't) you've still got to figure why they would use this grossly obvious flag raising method
4 - then after all that you've still got to apply Okham's Razor, you need a solution that's simpler than "the database or it's query procedures suck" for your answer to be more likely than my answer

[discostu]

I spit on your challenge as being a red herring and unworthy of attention. In 3 simple queries I showed over a dozen screwed up entries, I could care less where the companies are, there's a clear pattern of bad data. Hell the very problem could reside in how data from foreign companies is handled. One way or the other the data is bad, obviously and irrefutably so.