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HAITIANS AND THE FREE STATE PROJECT
SierraTimes.com ^ | Nov. 1, 2002 | J.J. Johnson

Posted on 11/02/2002 9:11:20 AM PST by madfly

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Last time I checked, we were at war. Part of that war means protection of our borders, among the most glaring issues this political season that few, if any, politicians on either side want to touch.
1 posted on 11/02/2002 9:11:20 AM PST by madfly
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To: Tonyklo; ppaul; FreePaul; OldFriend; Texas_Jarhead; blam; ClaireSolt; litehaus; isthisnickcool; ...
Sierra Times ping
2 posted on 11/02/2002 9:23:30 AM PST by madfly
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To: madfly
2. If the vessel continues to approach, have one missile (fired by either ship or air) detonate about 50 yards in front of said vessel with the words "last warning" to follow.

3. If vessel persists, aim for the midsection of said vessel with similar missile, document results.

I mentioned this at work this week when we were discussing the illegal alien Haitians and what we should do to protect our borders. My suggestion didn't involve a missile, though. I suggested that the Coast Guard (or Navy) fire their 3-inch deck gun or deck mounted .50 cal. machine gun across the bow of the vessel. If this does not deter the captain of the vessel from entering our waters, use the deck gun or machine gun to rip a hole in the hull of their ship and sink it. Film the sinking of the ship and televise it and let it serve as a warning to others who may attempt such foolishness that we mean business and we WILL protect our borders. Everyone at the office agreed with me. No one disagreed. I doubt, however, that those in charge have the b@lls to do this. They would be too worried about what the rest of the world thinks. F--k the rest of the world, is what I say. Secure our borders now.

3 posted on 11/02/2002 9:27:09 AM PST by RAT_Poison
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To: Free the USA; Tancredo Fan; Marine Inspector; Ajnin; agitator; Sabertooth; Tancred; Spiff; ...
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4 posted on 11/02/2002 9:29:16 AM PST by madfly
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To: madfly
The only thing to add is to remind everyone that it was Clinton who installed the present Marxist oriented regime in Haiti. To do so, he had to threaten the Marine invasion--which did in fact occur--to oust a West Point Graduate, who had values similar to those of mainstream Americans. That was one of the reasons Clinton should have been impeached, but the gutless wonders in Washington preferred to go after him for far less serious offenses.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

5 posted on 11/02/2002 9:31:07 AM PST by Ohioan
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To: madfly
The "Homeland Security" program is a pathetic joke.
6 posted on 11/02/2002 9:35:14 AM PST by sarcasm
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To: Clinton Is Scum; norton; Under the Radar; Slip18; Teacher317; NorseWood; cynicom; WhiteGuy; ...
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7 posted on 11/02/2002 9:35:30 AM PST by madfly
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To: USA21; isee; KingKongCobra; wonders; home educate; Mad_Tom_Rackham; 3AngelaD; LaGrone; ...
Sierra Times ping
8 posted on 11/02/2002 9:37:44 AM PST by madfly
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To: american_ranger; engrpat; LADY J; Ahban; shiva; Nebr FAL owner; winodog; anniegetyourgun
ping
9 posted on 11/02/2002 9:39:21 AM PST by madfly
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To: madfly
Bttt!
10 posted on 11/02/2002 9:43:17 AM PST by monkeywrench
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To: RAT_Poison
Secure our borders now.

What you propose no doubt is harsh. However, we may very well see such a policy put in place. George W. and his advisors have their plate pretty full right now, as you know. However, after this election I believe we'll see the illegal immigration (invasion) issue dealt with.

I predict a bunch of illegals already here will be deported and entry made much tougher. Just my opinion.

11 posted on 11/02/2002 9:46:11 AM PST by toddst
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: madfly
Just one thing: an awful lot of Americans died the last time someone started a "free state" project , because it ended up with a war between the states...with the "free staters" on the losing end.
13 posted on 11/02/2002 9:47:38 AM PST by genefromjersey
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To: toddst
However, after this election I believe we'll see the illegal immigration (invasion) issue dealt with.

Hopefully the way it's dealt with, if it is does not include any form of amnesty. If we keep rewarding these lawbreakers, they're going to keep coming.

14 posted on 11/02/2002 9:50:12 AM PST by Reaganwuzthebest
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To: toddst
What in the world makes you believe that???

Everything Bush has said and done leads me to believe just the opposite.
15 posted on 11/02/2002 10:01:42 AM PST by 4Freedom
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To: toddst
Secure our borders now
I think you need a reality check.
I do not see any thing being done, the reason why,
Democrats are on the band wagon with ammensty
Republicans want ammensty
President Bush is for ammensty
The INS is still the same, left hand does not know what the right hand is doing, doing their own thing, not following the law.
I have an idea there are good people trying their best to do the right thing, but the powers that head the INS, does not want any thing done, President Bush,
Asscroft, just to name two that are ignoring the illegal problem, who by the way, give the orders
16 posted on 11/02/2002 10:12:21 AM PST by calawah98
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To: calawah98
bttt
17 posted on 11/02/2002 10:23:57 AM PST by madfly
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To: madfly
Terrorism, immigration and taxes are the only three things on my radar screen right now. I will start voting for those (in any party) who address these issues. (All three of these issues are connected!)
18 posted on 11/02/2002 10:24:28 AM PST by blam
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: toddst
What you propose no doubt is harsh. However, we may very well see such a policy put in place. George W. and his advisors have their plate pretty full right now, as you know. However, after this election I believe we'll see the illegal immigration (invasion) issue dealt with.

I commend you for your optimism (hope you are right) but I doubt this will happen. My take on Bush is that he is FOR illegal immigration and thus will NEVER direct the necessary resources to stop the mass invasion of our southern borders or instruct the INS to enforce our nation's immigration laws.

In fact I predict that Bush will unload the 245(i) Amnesty for Illegal Aliens on America shortly after the election. Everything I've seen and heard out of this administration indicates that this is the likely case. In my opinion, the restoration of America's sovereignty will require another president that puts the interests of the American People and America ahead of foreign interests.

20 posted on 11/02/2002 10:31:05 AM PST by WRhine
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To: 4Freedom
Everything Bush has said and done leads me to believe just the opposite.

We'll know just where Bush wants to go with this when he names Ziglar's replacement. If it's another beltway "moderate" with no law enforcement experience than it's safe to say Tancredo will be picking up quite a bit more support in the next few years.

21 posted on 11/02/2002 10:32:53 AM PST by Reaganwuzthebest
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To: Reaganwuzthebest
We'll know just where Bush wants to go with this when he names Ziglar's replacement. If it's another beltway "moderate" with no law enforcement experience than it's safe to say Tancredo will be picking up quite a bit more support in the next few years.

Yes, that is the real litmus test and "MOMENT OF TRUTH" that will signal if Bush is finally going to get serious about illegal immigration. And I'm not optimistic that the replacement will be anything but a warmed over version of James "Open Borders" Ziglar.

22 posted on 11/02/2002 10:48:26 AM PST by WRhine
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To: Reaganwuzthebest; WRhine
My money's on Bush putting a Hispanic RINO in charge of the INS.

That's how I envision him dealing with illegal immigration based on what he's done, so far.

23 posted on 11/02/2002 11:02:01 AM PST by 4Freedom
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To: WRhine
One thing to look for, will the new guy come in and immediately start enforcing the law at the employer level, or will he go to Congress and ask to form a committee or two in order to come up with solutions?
24 posted on 11/02/2002 11:03:54 AM PST by Reaganwuzthebest
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To: Reaganwuzthebest
One thing to look for, will the new guy come in and immediately start enforcing the law at the employer level, or will he go to Congress and ask to form a committee or two in order to come up with solutions?

You mean a committee that will forever study the problem of illegal immigration, generate tons of position papers and do nothing constructive? I'd put my money on that. It would create the illusion that something is being done while the invasion continues unchecked. Really, I just can't imagine Bush installing a no nonsense experienced law enforcement guy that is committed to making fundamental positive changes in the INS and wants to enforce our immigration laws. Wouldn't be prudent.

25 posted on 11/02/2002 11:20:19 AM PST by WRhine
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To: 4Freedom
My money's on Bush putting a Hispanic RINO in charge of the INS.

Yes, we have to make sure the illegal aliens are properly represented and that they are getting their fair share of taxpayer financed services.

26 posted on 11/02/2002 11:22:40 AM PST by WRhine
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To: blam
Terrorism: The perpetrators of terrorism are criminals according to international laws pertaining to the conduct of war. Every nation that claims to uphold international law must act to crush this menace to civilization. That being said, we cannot rely on ANY other nation to do what needs to be done. If they help out, great, and we appreciate it. If not then they can get out of the way or suffer the consequences. Order of priority: those that engage in terrorism against us including accomplices, then those that engage in terror against our allies, then all the rest - we'll set priorities when we get that far. War to the knife without quarter - the survival of our civilization is at stake.

Immigration: LEGAL immigration is not a problem IF you can demonstrate a working knowledge of the English language and of fundamental US law (Read: The Constitution) and pass a background check. Zero tolerance for illegal immigration. I would militarize the borders, even if I had to call up National Guard units for the short term. We have 1.4 million active duty military (or thereabouts) - I don't see why we can't put some of them permanently on the border along with other obvious measures. If all those illegals really want the American dream they should bring their resources with them - establish the Rule of Law and apply for statehood.

Taxes: There is a need for some taxes to pay for those things that the Constitution specifically designates to the federal government, such as the military. There are some things we as a people have CHOSEN to do with tax money. These latter items constitute luxuries, and as such should be the first to go during times of economic stress. Taxes in general are too high, and the tax system is far too complex. I think the tax system should be simplified to the point where anyone with basic math skills could do their own return (with obvious exceptions for unusual or extraordinary situations). Furthermore, our tax money is spent on things that we have no control over. I believe that we should have a direct say in how the bulk of our taxes are spent. This would amount to a tax referendum every year when you fill out your (simple, one page) tax return - just check off the boxes that say where you want your money to go. Say up to 10 boxes each representing 5% of your tax dollars. I like the flat tax and consider it both more fair and realisitcally implementable, but what I think is most fair is a 'head tax' where everybody pays exactly the same amount either in withholdings or through various types of community service. After all, we are all getting the same benefits or at least access to them, (theoretically, anyway). Why shouldn't the price of admission be the same for everyone? I realize a 'head tax' is not feasible, at least for now. Finally, regardless of the form of taxation (progressive, flat, head, any combination) all laws that impose taxes should sunset after, say, 5 years. Then, if there really is a good reason for the tax and if the money is being used well, then they can reintroduce the bill (not extend - introduce a new bill even if it is exactly like the last one), duke it out in the legislature, and get it signed into law. As things stand now, politicians don't have to justify the indefinite duration of a tax, they can micro-tax us to death (impose incremental taxes that people don't really notice), and even if you get rid of the politicians, the next set don't have to do anything about it and the tax doesn't go away.

So, blam, are you going to vote for me in 2004? If so, you had better move to NH by then. In the mean time, I intend to support Republicans since, at least until I get to do something about it, that is the most likely chance of still having a country.
27 posted on 11/02/2002 11:25:49 AM PST by calenel
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To: madfly
I want to go HOME. I want to be free.

I'm going with the FSP

Who's coming with me?

28 posted on 11/02/2002 11:47:27 AM PST by watcher1
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To: calenel
Sure, you get my vote with a few modifications:

Terrorism: Looks reasonable

Immigration: An immediate suspension of immigration for a period of thirty years.

Taxes: All taxes will sunset every four years and be re-voted on every four years during the presidential election. Each year as each person pays his/her taxes, they are issued a voting permit. Those without a permit will not be allowed to vote. (Four permits are required to vote in four year elections) Those who do not pay taxes (for what-ever-reason) will not be allowed to vote.

Government Service: Every American at reaching the age of eighteen must begin serving two years (minimum) duty in the military or other appropriate government service. (This two year service will fall under the code of UCMJ)

29 posted on 11/02/2002 12:13:35 PM PST by blam
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To: RAT_Poison
. No one disagreed. I doubt, however, that those in charge have the b@lls to do this

Well, the AG of the former administration had the b@lls to incinerate American men, women and children and didn't give a damn what anyone thought. Perhaps we should get J. R. to come back and handle the infiltrators.

30 posted on 11/02/2002 1:01:29 PM PST by varon
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To: genefromjersey
The FSP is not sucession by any means. It's just a bunch of like minded people moving to a state where freedom is still possible.
31 posted on 11/02/2002 1:19:47 PM PST by AAABEST
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To: watcher1; Carry_Okie; backhoe; Black Agnes; countrydummy; newriverSister; brityank; forester; ...
I want to go HOME. I want to be free. I'm going with the FSP. Who's coming with me?

I've been talking with my family about it. Watching what's happening to my country is becoming unsufferable.

I'll certainly commit when I get enough people on board. The more I think about this idea the more I absolutely love it. I'm going to have kids soon and I want some hope for them not to have to spend their lives in a socialist s***hole.

32 posted on 11/02/2002 1:28:02 PM PST by AAABEST
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To: AAABEST
BTTT!!!!!!
33 posted on 11/02/2002 1:44:30 PM PST by E.G.C.
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To: madfly
"Meanwhile, a Haitian government official blamed an aid freeze by foreign donor countries (read: U.S. welfare payments) for causing the poverty in his country that led more than 200 migrants to travel in an overcrowded freighter to the United States."

Yea-yea; SOS.

...different day.

34 posted on 11/02/2002 1:49:01 PM PST by Landru
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To: AAABEST
bttt 4 fsp
35 posted on 11/02/2002 2:11:30 PM PST by gcruse
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To: AAABEST
LOL! But why should the FSP be weenies chasing after a small prize like Idaho or Wyoming? Couldn't we make the FSP California? Most of the non-Mexican immigrants know enough of tyranny they'd join us in a minute, especially the Vietnamese. It really wouldn't take that many people and once done we'd have the resorce and economic base to help make us rich enough to propagate freedom around the world.

The Switzerland of the West! Besides, why not go for the good real estate? We've already got Hollywood on the run and San Francisco is geographically small enough we might just be able to tent it! A little methyl bromide and my summer home at Pacific and Divisadero would be fully fumigated!

It's not as hard as one might think to get rid of the freeloaders. Just start a Socialist State Project somewhere else and the bums will run to it like flies to feces! Might I suggest Oregon? They're already nine tenths of the way there and I am sure the voters are willing! It would make a nice contrast.

I can dream, can't I?

36 posted on 11/02/2002 2:14:25 PM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: AAABEST
"I've been talking with my family about it. Watching what's happening to my country is becoming unsufferable."

I realize it's somewhat hollow to say this; but, nevertheless, here it goes, anyway.
Would you find any consolation in knowing you're not alone in your sentiments?
Because you're certainly not.

"I'll certainly commit when I get enough people on board. The more I think about this idea the more I absolutely love it."

Back when the Berlin Wall came down?
I suggested to my wife that, given the desperate condition those new countries & the people living there were in?
Insofar as while they were desperately trying to be free (ie capitalist free-market economy, elected representatives et al)?
Those people didn't have a clue, did not know how to be free, either.

Suggested we just might find the *kind* of life we were promised & frankly are not getting (here);or, at least find the opportunity to build one & without the incredible bullshit-resistance we seem to be getting from our own countrymen.

She then mentioned the bitter irony of our returning to the eastern european countries our grandfather's origin; after, they risked life & limb to flee & for the exact same reason(s) we're now once again considering leaving.
More than a hundred years later; history repeats.

Needless to say, our's was only a dream; as, we're well aware of the corruption & madness which has overcome those newly created Republics.
Hell's Bells, even what's happening in the european WASP nations is a crying shame as well as a disgusting, pathetic Socialist mess.

As for inhabiting a >>state<< somewhere from among our existing states?
One populated "by" like-minded people of the "conservative" mindset?
On the face it sounds idealic.
However...

Another -- wise -- poster has already mentioned what happened the last time such a thing was attempted.
Because seriously & as sure as God made little green apples?
If such a thing came to pass, penultimately Washington would interfere to the point the place we'd created, would be unbearable, unliveable, not what we'd wanted in any shape or form.
Then, ultimately, they'd send in their goons to destroy each & every individual who dared resist their meddling ways.

No.
IF THIS WERE TO BE REALISTICALLY CARRIED OUT?
It'd have to be done as a mass-migration to a smaller, third-world nation; whereby, by virtue of our numbers & the resources we'd brought with, we'd simply take over.

I had neighbors whose daughter & son-in-law were going to -- of all places -- Belize with the idea of doing exactly what I suggested above.
I have absolutely no idea whatever became of those two, either; as, we've long since moved away from their parents.

...fwiw & fyi; both those people were stalwart Libertarians.

37 posted on 11/02/2002 2:21:07 PM PST by Landru
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To: AAABEST
Close Our Borders To All Illegals !!

Return All Illegals To Their Country Of Origin !!

Up With The Right !!

Vote For Republicans !!

GWB Is The Man !!

Death To all Muslim Extremist's !!

The RATS Are In Disarray...Eradicate The Rodents !!

Fire Democrats, Hire Republicans !!

Freedom Is Worth Fighting For !!

Let's Roll !!

Molon Labe !!

38 posted on 11/02/2002 2:32:12 PM PST by blackie
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To: madfly
The big question, of course, is in which state to begin?. It'll require a governor and legislature willing to stand up to federal blackmail and extortion, and both voter blocs and an armed populace willing to resist attempts to flood the area with illegal voters, probably foreign.

But the time to try it is now, while we still can. The window of opportunity will close soon.

-archy-/-

39 posted on 11/02/2002 3:02:10 PM PST by archy
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To: AAABEST
Bump
40 posted on 11/02/2002 3:03:32 PM PST by facedown
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To: archy
The big question, of course, is in which state to begin?.

You don't like my idea?

It'll require a governor and legislature willing to stand up to federal blackmail and extortion, and both voter blocs and an armed populace willing to resist attempts to flood the area with illegal voters, probably foreign.

If that's a REQUIREMENT, then it will never happen. Don't underestimate yourself, or the power of an effective bloc. So, isn't one out of three enough? If you want conservatives who can stand up to anything, come to California! We're tough. Just ask Carl Rove and Gray Davis. For every FReeper who moves here there'll be three Slave Party weenies who'll hightail it.

Think of the change in cash flow! :-P

41 posted on 11/02/2002 3:21:39 PM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Taxman; Bigun; Eagle9; freedox; IronJack; diotima; Bob J; The Game Hen; PistolPaknMama; Memother; ..
This is an excellent article.
42 posted on 11/02/2002 3:29:36 PM PST by dixie sass
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To: madfly
Another article from JJ . Good stuff as always .
43 posted on 11/02/2002 3:58:43 PM PST by Ben Bolt
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To: blackie
I especially liked your suggestion to fire Democrats. One is still allowed to fire someone due to their radical political beliefs.
44 posted on 11/02/2002 4:09:51 PM PST by Dec31,1999
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To: madfly
Bump for later read.
45 posted on 11/02/2002 4:39:08 PM PST by jokar
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To: Carry_Okie; gcruse; Landru; archy
They actually have a working plan. As far as population, it would have to under 1.5 million. They looked at many other factors such as amount spent on political campaigns, freedom orientated populace and other variables.

At first I thought this was a pipe dream, but the more I look at it and the further it progresses, the more it seems not only workable, but a good idea.

This is not succession by any means, and they're not looking for separatists or violent types in any way. This is a legal and viable idea.

46 posted on 11/02/2002 5:23:06 PM PST by AAABEST
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To: AAABEST
It's damned attractive.
47 posted on 11/02/2002 5:24:17 PM PST by gcruse
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To: AAABEST
It is surprising that the Free State Project has not generated more interest and support here at FR. The last thread mentioning it degenerated rapidly into a discussion of Somalia and of course the ubiquitous "libertarians are druggies" posts.
I had come to accept as accomplished fact that liberty was in its death throws and no chance existed for its revival in my lifetime but the FSP has given me some hope. The concept is sound and the project is doable. A dedicated minority can change the world, look at how the major religions got started not to mention political movements like socialism and communism. All we need to do is take one tiny state, one already with the proper leanings at that. I've been talking about this to friends and family about this and they all seem interested.
48 posted on 11/02/2002 5:28:38 PM PST by u-89
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To: AAABEST
You already know my answer............but I'll say it !

I'm in !!

Stay Safe !

49 posted on 11/02/2002 5:28:43 PM PST by Squantos
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To: u-89
I've been talking about this to friends and family about this and they all seem interested.

Nearly everyone I've talked to about it seems interested, including my wife, mom and many others. I won't make a commitment until I'm sure I can do it. The more I think and talk and read about it the more it seems very realistic, workable and desirable.

I'm going to work towards it in a very real way.

50 posted on 11/02/2002 5:59:43 PM PST by AAABEST
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