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"I think, therefore I exist" -- Rene Descartes
Philosophy, An introduction to the Art of Wondering - Sixth Edition -- pages 36/37
| 1994
| James L. Christian
Posted on 11/04/2002 7:52:21 AM PST by thinktwice
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To: weikel
Who on this thread has specifically attacked Catholicism? #39.
To: DoctorMichael
is Ayn Rand's original starting point for HER philosophy the contrapositive of Descartes? The metaphysical basis (the first source of knowledge, or starting point) for Ayn Rand's Objectivism is reality.
And, I see no disagreement between Rand and Descartes in the "I think, therefore I exist" department.
To: weikel
You don't know not 100%.
When I was majoring in Philosophy, I would administer the 'baseball bat' test whenever someone posited you could not be 100% certain about reality.
Essentially, it works like thus: I start hitting you about the head with a baseball bat until you admit that you are CERTAIN that the bat exists.
It turns out we can be a lot more certain about reality than we think we can if we really put our minds to it.
Realize, I'm no friend of A.J. Ayer, but I've always kept Samuel Johnson's refutation of Bishop Berkeley close at hand. When asked about Berekeley's doubts about the existence of things and what he thought of them, Johnson kicked a stone in reply.
Basically, you might doubt whether you can be certain about the existence of external things, but that doubt does not preclude knowledge. Or reality.
To: weikel
You don't know not 100%. Until proven wrong, every human is certain about ... many, many things.
To: weikel
I'm way out of practice, and one must remember that most of my dealings with philosphy involved a hot chick I was trying to get to "know", pot, and Pink Floyd (never worked either... but it might have if I hadn't been such a chicken at that age). But basically that was what Descartes was doing, but he was building the axiomatic proof from the only given that exists. That's part of the fun of what he did. Most people accept the reality around them as a given, Descartes decided it was something to be proven. Which is really interesting, even if it has resulted in some of the worst sci-fi ever.
85
posted on
11/04/2002 11:41:10 AM PST
by
discostu
To: thinktwice
The difference between being certain and knowing is what philosophy is all about.
86
posted on
11/04/2002 11:42:37 AM PST
by
discostu
To: Aquinasfan
Consciousness is the revealed-revelation of existents, and existents appear before consciousness on the foundation of their being...
Hmmmm...Sometimes Sartre is more valuable for the seasoning he gives a dish rather than for the actual meat he uses.
"Consciousness is the revealed-revelation of existents..." = Consciousness is that which reveals that which Is. Consciouss is nothing; it is, only to the extent that it is anything (with a small "i"), as something that reveals that which Is. It is a tending-toward that which Is in contrast to itself which is that which is-not. Since consciousness is-not, it is a being that is always in question as something that is nothing compared to all that is (Being = existents).
"...and existents appear before consciousness on the foundation of their being..." = Existents are all that are. They are Being, as opposed to consciousness, which is not-being. Existents appear to consciousness on the foundation of their being because that which Is is, only because it has as a foundation, Being.
Or something like that.
87
posted on
11/04/2002 11:43:50 AM PST
by
BikerNYC
To: BikerNYC
Or something like that.
LOL! : )
To: Aquinasfan
I sometimes wonder whether she (Ayn Rand) read Aristotle at all. Rand has the same problem that all empiricists do: Revealing ... your total ignorance regarding Ayn Rand.
"If there is a philosophical Atlas who carries the whole of Western civilization on his shoulders, it is Aristotle. He has been opposed, misinterpreted, misrepresented, and -- like an axiom -- used by his enemies in the very act of denying him. Whatever intellectual progress men have achieved rests on his achievements." -- Ayn Rand
And ... implying that Ayn Rand was an empiricist is akin to classifying the Pope as an atheist.
To: thinktwice
...............I see no disagreement between Rand and Descartes in the "I think, therefore I exist" department. Hahahahahaha. Neither do I...........just an interesting thought.
I've just always wondered though whether each of these two philosophers got it only half-right ie. two sides of the same coin.
To: discostu
what philosophy is all about Philosophy is about ... everything, not just questions regarding certainty and knowledge.
To: dyed_in_the_wool; discostu
The difference between being certain and knowing is what philosophy is all about. Hmmm. Maybe you could help discostu out, since you appear to have read--or at least remembered more-- than dicostu. You do remember how Socrates closes out the Phaedrus?
92
posted on
11/04/2002 11:54:38 AM PST
by
cornelis
To: cornelis
Oh no not Socrates! Off the top of my head I can't even remember if I ever read Phaedrus... 16 years is a long time. please, enlighten, it's fun. But I'm really starting to think I should put on Ummagumma.
93
posted on
11/04/2002 11:58:12 AM PST
by
discostu
To: weikel
Well unless your insane you accept the external world axiomatically but you can't be certain of its reality the way you can be that "you exist"... I think you just have to accept external reality period. Exactly how do you "doubt" physical sensation? I mean, I can say that I doubt the existence of my own sensations, but isn't such a statement incoherrent, contradictory and absurd since it is impossible for me not to experience my own sensations?
Some truths we know simply because they are. They are prior to logical proof because they precede ratiocination and in fact are necessary for the possibility of ratiocination.
Descartes big, fat error was to artificially and without reason to bifurcate the human person, body and mind or body and soul.
...it could be a big dream, elaborate simulation etc.
But it can't be. Our central sense tells us whether or not we are dreaming. Besides, if it were literally impossible to distinguish a dream from reality then where did the idea of "dream" come from?
To: thinktwice
But that is everything, sort of. People are certain about a lot of stuff, most of which they don't actually know JS about. Just check out DU and see how they'll wax poetic about all kinds of crap they wouldn't know if it hit 'em upside the head.
95
posted on
11/04/2002 12:00:29 PM PST
by
discostu
To: Aquinasfan
I can say that I doubt the existence of my own sensations, but isn't such a statement incoherrent, contradictory and absurd since it is impossible for me not to experience my own sensations? The reasoning Descartes used could lead to the impossibility of doubt? How did you do it?
96
posted on
11/04/2002 12:04:27 PM PST
by
cornelis
To: Katya
"Cogito ergo Freeperum.My husband is making up a sign later to support Ehrlich and other fellow republicans: Would this be correct: cogito ergo Republicanum
One of the reasons I like Latin is because it's a very pithy language. There's a lot of meaning in words.
I think you would need:
Cogito, ergo Freeperum sum!
I'm making some assumptions - that the noun "Freeperum" is a gender neuter noun of the second declension. You still need a verb though, so that is why you need the "est Republicanum is a derivative of "publicanum", which has a generic definition.
I'll defer to others more up on Latin than I for additional info or to issue the appropriate corrections if I have erred.
97
posted on
11/04/2002 12:05:40 PM PST
by
Fury
To: thinktwice
Revealing ... your total ignorance regarding Ayn Rand. Well, I have read about ten of her books. I stand by my statement.
"If there is a philosophical Atlas who carries the whole of Western civilization on his shoulders, it is Aristotle. He has been opposed, misinterpreted, misrepresented, and -- like an axiom -- used by his enemies in the very act of denying him. Whatever intellectual progress men have achieved rests on his achievements." -- Ayn Rand
Whoa.
And ... implying that Ayn Rand was an empiricist is akin to classifying the Pope as an atheist.
Well what was she? Would you please address the "Knower/thing known" problem? It is critical to her entire endeavor.
To: discostu
Just check out DU and see how they'll wax poetic about all kinds of crap they wouldn't know if it hit 'em upside the head. Everyone works within limited givens, including Descartes. This is why his talk of finitude is important. The reaction to that is the reason for the fame of this Latin phrase. Rand and other Enlightenment optimists consider it sufficient for politics to work within limited givens and ignore the rest.
99
posted on
11/04/2002 12:06:59 PM PST
by
cornelis
To: Aquinasfan
Descartes big, fat error was to artificially and without reason to bifurcate the human person, body and mind or body and soul.
I'm having trouble following this. According to traditional theology, the bifurcation occurs every time someone dies -- that is, the soul separates from the body.
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