Gun Shows Have Ingredients, Instructions Needed To Build A Bomb

CBS via iWon.com ^ | Nov 12, 2002 | CBS

[Pern]

DENVER, NOV. 11, 2002 (CBS News) - They look innocent enough, and the names sound like things you might find in a baker's pantry or a chemistry set. But when they're mixed the result is a compound called flash powder that can cause a powerful explosion.

This isn't the work of terrorists using sophisticated materials. The ingredients and the know how to build extremely powerful explosives are easy to come by.

A joint investigation by CBS News and affiliate KCNC found the chemicals needed to build a bomb right out in the open at a Denver-area gun show, along with the printed instructions on how to make them explode.

"What I do is go ahead and put in plugs and all and then put the fuse in and glue it in," explains an unidentified buyer.

While it is legal to buy each of the chemicals individually, it's illegal to buy them together as components for explosives. But at this show the vendors don't ask and the customers don't tell.

An unidentified vendor says anybody buying these ingredients at a gun show would not have a legitimate reason to do so, "unless they purposely wanted to make flash powder."

Flash powder is most commonly used in fireworks, but must be mixed by a licensed explosives expert. Just how volatile is it?

At CBS' request, Sgt. Mark Singer of the Adams County, Colorado bomb squad supervised a demonstration. First, for comparison, he detonated two pounds of dynamite. Then he exploded the same amount of flash powder, which created significantly more damage.

Experts say even a small car could be packed with as much as 500 pounds of explosives.

"Obviously, we want to avoid the big brother thing, but on the other hand we can't ignore situations that could be deadly to who knows how many people," says Singer.

Colorado lawmaker Dan Grossman worries about what amounts to one-stop shopping at gun shows like this one.

"The point is do we make it convenient?" asks Grossman. "Do we create a 7-11 for terrorists?

"Do we create a super store for militia members who want to cause harm to this country and their neighbors? The answer to me is no."

Authorities say they are watching, and prosecute illegal sales when they find them. But back at the gun show, one of hundreds held around the country, that threat doesn't seem to carry much weight.

[Pern]

"The point is do we make it convenient?" asks Grossman. "Do we create a 7-11 for terrorists? "Do we create a super store for militia members who want to cause harm to this country and their neighbors? The answer to me is no."

Militia members?! We have uncountable threats from foreign sources, and this guy is worried about our own citizens? This guy needs to get his priorities straight. It seems that the Democrats are still trying to make gun control a relevant issue. Sorry, but looking back on Nov. 5th, the people aren't buying that drivel anymore.

[goldstategop]

The liberal gun wackos come out on CBS to bash gun shows. And the Democrats keep on losing ground in the Red States. No, they still don't yet get it.

[FastCoyote]

In case any of you people don't realize it, most engineers, chemists and tech people have enough skills to build a big bomb between a trip to the hardware store and their garden supply. I have never been quite sure why they don't do these things quite often, it's actually easier and cheaper than buying a gun. Except that engineers tend to be right wingers who are actually more concerned with being left alone than harassing anyone. That's why the left's emphasis on takeovers from the right seem pretty baseless. You have to be really mental to want to go and hurt anyone, which sounds more like Malvo or Kazinski than some right wing techie who likes to make firecrackers.

[FastCoyote]

"Madam, is that a bag of flour in your shopping cart, or a fuel air explosive?"

[xm177e2]

It's really a shame some gun show organizers allow this sort of thing to go on. It's their gun show, they can decide what's allowed.

[FastCoyote]

Well, amateurs have been building these things for the last hundred years ever since miners learned to pack fertilizer and fuel oil in a hole. And it isn't like farmers haven't cleared a few stumps with sticks of dynamite. So, I think it is very similar to the gun scare problem. "If you criminalize bombmaking, only criminals will have bombs".

[Southack]

You can make a 15,000 pound Daisy Cutter out of fertilizer and diesel fuel. Are we going to make it convenient for farmers and gardners to buy fertilizer and diesel fuel?! Next thing you know those right wing terrorists/militia members will be robbing banks with BlU-82's. < /SARCASM >

This article and investigation is simply a hit piece, unimaginatively trying to scare Americans into closing the fabled "gun show loophole".

It won't work. Gun shows have been in America for more than a century without causing any outbreaks of ultra-violence. Left-Wing media demagogues can pretend that there are new, unchecked threats all around, but they aren't going to convince mainstream America.

[Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Sorry, but I don't see anything in this amendmant about the right to build powerful explosives.

There are some things that need to be "well regulated" and maybe the ability of a few demented individuals to cause extreme harm to very many is one of them.

Authorities say they are watching, and prosecute illegal sales when they find them. But back at the gun show, one of hundreds held around the country, that threat doesn't seem to carry much weight.

If this is true, maybe it needs to change.

[Nam Vet]

Responsible parents teach their kids what has the potential to hurt them. Is that teaching terrorism? Alan Colmes and his clones might think so. They live in terror of the 1950's American 12 year old. I was there! (12 years old in the '50s)

Nam Vet

[UbonGhostrider]

They (CBS) have promised another bash at gun shows for Tuesday night. Their agenda is pretty transparent, but the continual demonizing of the gun show, the NRA, hunters, and any militia activity is rapidly becoming true gospel to many Americans who are unfamilar with firearms. There is so little counterbalance for this media attack.

[Nam Vet]

".....searching for the real meaning of freedom, justice and liberty. " (From YOUR profile)

It's obvious you haven't found it yet. Stick around and read more before ya post.

Nam Vet

Sorry to be so blunt, but read my post above and don't be such a wuss.

[Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit]

Responsible parents teach their kids what has the potential to hurt them.

But not all parents are responsible. Nor are all people well adjusted. And, it only takes one poorly adjusted kid with irresponsible parents to make a bomb to kill you, your wife and your children. This is not being a wuss, this is a legitimate concern.

Also, if what you wrote is your idea of being blunt, in comparison to other experiences I've had and things I've been called, you are really quite civilized.

[ActionNewsBill]

Militia members?! We have uncountable threats from foreign sources, and this guy is worried about our own citizens? This guy needs to get his priorities straight

Militias are getting a lot of bad press lately....Mark Koernke's house raided and his wife terrorized, Connie Chung trying to make a link between al queda and the Michigan Militia.

The next terrorist attack will probably be blamed on "home grown" terrorists, i.e., militias and gun owners, just like OKC.

Only this time it will be the Bush administration leading the way.

[Nam Vet]

So in fear of the one or two idiot parents or children, we strip freedoms away from the 98 - 99 others? That's society's job thru peer pressure, not the almighty state. I suppose the "silent treatment" of the '50s would be viewed as a 'hate crime' today.

Nam Vet

[Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit]

I just can't get it through my thick head that access to high explosives is a right that the average American needs wants or should have.

That is why I posted the 2nd Amendmant. I did not even begin to question the right to bear arms. But in certain circumstances (highly deadly explosives used for killing human beings for instance) the "well-regulated" part of that amendmant should play a role. You can't deny that the founding fathers wrote it. I am sorry if you don't agree with it, but those words are there and they should be applied in this circumstance.


Plus, the whole point about 1 or 2 crazy individuals is that no, peer pressure will never work. There is nothing society can do to stop these type of people other than deny them the resources to committ the crimes. The other alternative is to try and identify them beforehand and lock them up. But, I would rather deny myself and all Americans (not to mention potential terrorists) the access to high explosives than begin locking up people for something they might do.

[Nam Vet]

I just read your profile and noticed you are German. I should have been more observant of your name. I am VERY interested in your opinion as I am an American born of German blood. Proved to be "pure". But we'll get into that later if you wish. Freedom is just something I don't think Europe has any real idea of anymore. Sadly more and more Americans are losing the meaning. No personal affront meant.

Nam Vet....The proud son of immigrants who recognised the difference long ago.

[Caipirabob]

Building your own incendiary devices used to be a right of passage in childhood. Come on, now... you know, the sort of thing that comes with a "Hold muh M&M's alert?"

[Nam Vet]

"But, I would rather deny myself and all Americans (not to mention potential terrorists) the access to high explosives than begin locking up people for something they might do."

You've illustrated my point exactly. You have the right to deny yourself anything YOU choose. You DO NOT have the right to deny me what I choose. Let that go too long and soon people will be telling everyonewhat words they can say. Then you start to being punished for what people THINK is on your mind. I can go much further, but I think you can figure it out.

Nam Vet

[Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit]

I am not German, rather an American with German blood who has been in Germany going on 4 years now . I am very into German history (not just 12 years) and culture

You are very correct that Germans have a different understanding of freedom.

Here it is in a nutshell (excuse me for simplyfying):

Americans believe freedom is the right to do whatever you want the only limitations on which are that it does not interfere who another person's freedom. In literary terms it is like prose.

For Germans freedom is living in a society with well established, universally recognized and followed laws. You can do whatever you want within those set boundaries because you know everyone else will also remain within them.
(For example, it takes 8 weeks and $2000 to get a drivers licence, but then you can drive as fast as you want in certain places) IN literary terms German freedom is like a sonnet. Which is a fourteen-line poem in iambic pentameter with a carefully patterned rhyme scheme.

If you like, We can discuss more on freepmail or a more well-suited thread.

[Nam Vet]

"Hold muh M&M's alert?"

LOL....We're bros already. Take care.

Nam Vet

[Tolerance Sucks Rocks]

Full Title:

Gun Shows Have Ingredients, Instructions Needed To Build A Bomb, We Don't Like Gun Shows

[tm22721]

It's not guns and gunpowder that CBS wants outlawed.

It's testosterone.

BUMP

[Tolerance Sucks Rocks]

I just can't get it through my thick head that access to high explosives is a right that the average American needs wants or should have.

I'm sure the Branch Davidians wouldn't have minded...

[listenhillary]

Do we create a 7-11 for terrorists?

YES! Some would be so stupid they'd actually go there!

Terrorist Super Center SALE!! Ramadan BLOWOUT specials, C4 buy 2 get one free, Osama's nitro fertilizer only $75 per ton.

[calenel]

"...and soon people will be telling everyonewhat words they can say. Then you start to being punished for what people THINK is on your mind."

They call that Political Correctness.

[CDHart]

Connie Chung last week on CNN interviewed a Vanity Fair writer and he suggested a link between the Michigan Militia and Al Qaeda. Also last week, Mark Koernke's house was raided and he's in jail.

Koernke is not the leader of the Michigan Militia, but I think he used to be. He's one of the ones they were looking for right after OKC.

What disturbs me is the ongoing effort to link legitimate militia groups to terrorism, which is what Clinton did quite effectively after OKC. The next step is to link Al Qaeda and the militia groups. Or should I put on my tinfoil hat? :^)

Carolyn

[CWRWinger]

i>"Do we create a super store for militia members who want to cause harm to this country and their neighbors? The answer to me is no."

IMO, the guy is saying, "We can't let Americans have their Constitutional liberties back." He considers liberty to be a deadly threat to his NWO and the spirit of anti-christ.

[laker_dad]

Gun shows are bad, mmmkay...

BTW, does anyone know of one in West Michigan in the near future?

[wtc911]

I agree. Guns are one thing and ownership is constitutionally protected. It should stay that way. Bombs are something else entirely. You will not defend your house or family with a car bomb. The easy access at gun shows (not bomb shows) to these materials with, as exhibited by the helpfully supplied "how to" info, works against any rational gun rights argument.

[dhuffman@awod.com]

Did you even notice the sense in the retort about 'flour'. Flour will have to be banned as a high explosive before your utopia can exist. Then powdered sugar and on and on ad nauseam.

You and your ilk are welcome to eat safe and nutricious sawdust but I prefer freedom.

THE CONSPIRACY OF IGNORANCE MASQUERADES AS COMMON SENSE!

[Gorzaloon]

If I wanted to build a bomb, the last place I would consider getting materials is a gun show.

It's just too obvious.

Anyone with High School Chemistry can do better than that..That is, if it is really being taught anymore.

[metesky]

Look up the German constitution and compare it with ours.

The German document is full of stuff like "the right to develop one's own personality", and any right can be suspended by passing a law, which makes them no rights at all.

[Leisler]

"... Except that engineers tend to be right wingers ..."

I'm a tradesman and can build anything, so long as it is in wood. All my friends are in one trade or another. They are all conservative. I exist in Massachusetts. All the lib/leftist have paper shuffling jobs where you don't do or make anything. For some reason they think they are more educated, even though they know squat about their car, their house, can't fish or hunt. Furthermore they are all worried about war in Iraq, but neither they or their slob kids are or were in the military. Almost everyone in the trades was in the military. So, in sum, if you know how to do something dealing with reality and were in the military, you are likely to be a conservative. If you have a sitdown support, paper shuffling job and never served, liberal. I know which half of the population could be kidnapped by aliens, and everything would continue working fine, and it it's us.

[woofer]

If this is true, maybe it needs to change.

Then maybe it needs to be changed at the university level also.

As the internet was just becoming popular, oh say back in 1993, the most sought after texts were "The Terrorist's Cookbook" and "The Anarchist Handbook". Going by your logic, shouldn't schools like Rutgers and many others have their servers shut down? Are you aware that, when mixed in specific quantities, soap, mothballs and corn syrup can make a pretty good substitute for plastique?

Oh, and by the way "Collosus Dangling Member", your nick does speak volumes of certain traits you exhibit here. Riesen Schwanz indeed. To me you'll always be a Kleiner schwanz.

[Leisler]

"Gun Shows Have Ingredients, Instructions Needed To Build A Bomb"

TEXTS IN LOCAL HIGHSCHOOLS SHOW INGREDIENTS, INSTRUTIONS TO BUILD BOMB! PERIODIC TABLE OPENLY DISPLAYED!

[Rifleman]

This is a technological society. There are hundreds of useful ordinary products that can be pressed into the service of criminals or terrorists. Do you intend to liscense propane or maybe post a guard over every gas station? Every rural area has places where you can buy a poison gas and drive away with a trailer full, or steal it if you prefer. A little planning and two guys with a pickup truck and some steel cable could blackout most small cities.

Thes difuse threats can only be faced by universal vigilance and hunting down the organized perps. Security can't be bought with the coin you are trying to spend.

[Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit]

First of all, since I have explained time and again about my name, your personal attack is not only juvenile, it is also old news. I've tried to change it, nuke it, etc. I can't and the mods are allowing it.

I am certain you have never shown any instance of poor taste in your entire life. I an in awe at your perfection and we are all blessed by your presence.

Just hope you're never my cellmate in prison and you'll never have to learn who's right on the name.

To get back on topic, actually you are right. It does need to be enforced at all levels to which we have access as well. Of course, it doesnt mean shutting down the server, merely banning sites that disseminate that type of material. One needn't throw the baby out with the bath.

Free speech is something that comes with responsibility. There are certain things that should not be public information. Before we get into a long debate about that, let's say we just don't allow a mass audience access to instructions on how to make high explosives and weapons of mass destruction. Throw in child porn and that about ends the list.

[copycat]

A joint investigation by CBS News and affiliate KCNC found the chemicals needed to build a bomb right out in the open at a Denver-area gun show, along with the printed instructions on how to make them explode.

The why aren't things getting blown up?

[The Raven]

I can make a bomb from ingredients at my local CVS. What's the point?

[nygoose]

It's a free country.

[woofer]

Just hope you're never my cellmate in prison and you'll never have to learn who's right on the name.

Is that a threat or a promise? Careful what you wish for, you may get it. It isn't my fault your choice of a handle is an incredible fantasy of possible fixations and delusions that shows a complete lack of respect to many of the members here at FR. Perhaps, if what you say is true, you could be a little more enthusiastic in your endeavors to change your screen name.

But, you're right, back to the debate. Making explosive out of ordinary, everyday and easily obtainable products from instructions gotten from a myriad of diverse sources is something that would be hard for any entity to stop or eradicate. Vigilance and a keen sense of ones surroundings is the answer. Not government interference and regulation. Heck, my old man divulged the secret of explosive rounds to my brothers and I at an early age. His only caution was that if you planned to skin or eat what you shot it would be best not to use one.

[dhuffman@awod.com]

Re: The "List" Don't forget Godwin's Law! http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/Godwin's-Law.html

[BullDog108]

try this

[willingtodie]

Sorry sir but the term , well regulated , as used in the Second Amendment means well trained, diciplined,supplied , NOT restricted by laws or persons.

[dd5339]

I hate to burst the bubble of these fine investigative journalists, (/sarcasm). But what they've found is a kit to make your own home-made M-80's! I've seen these kits at gun shows, personally I'd much rather buy agricultural pest deterrent devices. After all, I have a lot of agricultural pests to deter!

Now I know, M-80's are the favorite explosive of terrorists everywhere. Haven't you all heard about the drive by M-80ing's going on across the country? How about the terrorist strapping on his M-80 laced suicide belt? What about Richard Reed and the M-80 in his shoe? Does anyone honestly think that the Bali bombing was a car load of M-80's?

Please, someone introduce this, "journalist" is a real M-80! Preferrably by stuffing it up they're *ss!

/rant be gone!

Semper Fi

[dhuffman@awod.com]

Thanks.

[dd5339]

Access to high explosive is available to most people.

I was able to walk into a local farm co-op and buy dynamite. I had to fill out a couple of forms and sign my name 8 bazillion times.

By the way, it did a number on the tree we were cleaning up.

Semper Fi

[sit-rep]

I have to comment on your outlook...

There are many, MANY manuals for improvised munitions that are for sale at gun and knife shows...many. You can get all sorts of manuals on "Snipers", "Assassins", "Ceramic Fire Arms". You can get all sorts of goodies at the gun and knife shows.

So, is it the fault of the "Seller" if some whack job buys his product and goes on a nut? Ummmm you're sounding like a Liberal.

Personally, I'd like the idea that every third man in society knows how to whip up a batch of material that goes boom! I think every man should know how, and he pass it on to his offspring. It would be a real shame, if things go bad in our country, that all have to depend on the local authorities to go blow something up...think about it.

It is not the material(reading), it is the person who lacks the responsibility of the knowledge.

SR

[dd5339]

Uh, it's not bombs they're giving instructions on how to make! It's M-80 firecrackers!

However, there are manuals there such as FM 31-210 Improvised Field Munitions put out by our government available there, (no "supplies" are available though).

Semper Fi

[Walkin Man]

I find it telling that the leftist news media is attacking gun shows and those "scary right-wing whacko's" while not a word is said about the very real threat from foreign terrorists and their American supporters. Why doesn't CBS go undercover in an American mosque, hmmm??? Afraid of what they might find perhaps?? Having said that, I don't think it’s a good idea to sell ingredients intended to create bombs at gun shows.