Skip to comments.H-1B Study (All you US Citizen IT Workers are TOAST!)
Posted on 11/13/2002 10:28:24 AM PST by dark_lord
Yet readers of the articles proclaiming a shortage would be perplexed if they also knew that Microsoft only hires 2% of its applicants for software positions, and that this rate is typical in the industry. Software employers, large or small, across the nation, concede that they receive huge numbers of re'sume's but reject most of them without even an interview. One does not have to be a ``techie'' to see the contradiction here. A 2% hiring rate might be unremarkable in other fields, but not in one in which there is supposed to be a ``desperate'' labor shortage. If employers were that desperate, they would certainly not be hiring just a minuscule fraction of their job applicants.
Here is a table showing the actual number of job applicants hired for a variety of companies:
|American Management Systems||2%|
|Flashpoint Technology||2 to 5%|
|Inktomi||less than 5%|
|New England firm||1%|
|Radiant Systems||under 1%|
|Red Hat Linux||under 1%|
In other words, there is no shortage of ``bodies,'' i.e. there is no shortage of experienced computer programmers. The problem is that employers are not willing to hire them. Employers are only willing to hire from three narrow categories of programmers:
* New or recent (within a few years of graduation) college graduates, who have cheaper salaries. Note, though, that even among new computer science graduates, fewer than half are hired as programmers.
* Foreign nationals on work visas, who have cheaper salaries.
* A relatively small number of experiencedprogrammers who have background in certain highly-specialized software technologies.
Dr. Matloff says: "Hiring managers have often complained to me that their firm's Human Resources Dept. screens out resume's of applicants who the managers feel qualified. HR apparently decides to screen out the applicants who are too expensive or too old - and then complains that there is a ``shortage'' of applicants...There does seem to be coordination among the HR departments of the various firms. The HR departments of the major firms in Silicon Valley hold monthly meetings, at which the firms exchange information with each other on policy, salaries and so on. (Personal communication from Paul Donnelly, IEEE-USA, June 30, 2000.)...All the firms hire an extremely low percentage of their programming applicants, due to the fact that all the firms overstate job requirements...Almost all firms aim for applicants having three to seven years (or two to eight) of experience."
He says: "It seems safe to say that experience may not be the most valued commodity, according to a survey of 200 IT managers nationwide conducted by InformationWeek Research in May. Though age wasn't specified in the question, only 2% of the managers said they would most likely hire a worker with 10 or more years' experience. Almost half-46%-preferred to hire a worker with four to 10 years' experience, while 26% said they would hire a worker with less than three years' experience, and another 26% wanted an entry-level worker or recent college graduate."
(1) Question: Are the H-1Bs paid the fair ``prevailing wage,'' as claimed by the industry? -- "There is a broad consensus that the H-1Bs are indeed exploited in terms of wages and working conditions." Exploitation of H-1B's
(2) Question: The industry says that it will need H-1B visas temporarily, until more programmers can be trained. Is this true? -- No, it's false and dishonest. The employers know that this labor ``shortage,'' in the manner they have defined it, will be permanent; they intend to rely heavily on H-1Bs permanently. H-1B usage not temporary
(3) Question: Why are the H-1Bs de facto indentured servants? -- Most H-1Bs hope to get U.S. permanent residency status, i.e. green cards. But during their sponsorship by employers for greencards, they are in essence indentured servants: The green-card process takes several years, so H-1Bs dare not change employers. Changing employers would mean starting the green-card clock all over again.
The legislation passed in late 2000 tempers the indentured servitude problem somewhat, but is far from a solution. Immigration attorneys estimate that H-1Bs will still typically have a period of indentured servitude of 3 or 4 years.
Starting in early 2001 (or late 2000), the industry experienced a sharp slowdown. There were now many more H-1Bs than jobs which employers wished to fill with H-1Bs. Accordingly, many employers no longer offered green card sponsorship when they hired H-1Bs. Though this would at first appear to at least give the H-1Bs more freedom of movement, they now had a new problem - deportation. If they were laid off or fired from one job, they would have to find another within 10 days, or face deportation. (Some immigration attorneys challenged this, but the INS chose not to respond.) So, it was de facto indentured servitude all over again. [This means that US citizens are competing against indentured servants who dare not ask for higher wages or anything else because they cannot change jobs. Guess who the employers prefer. --dl]
(4) Question: Since the industry says that the H-1Bs are so important to them, has it lobbied Congress to expedite the greencard process? -- Very few employers have done this. On the contrary, the ITAA's Harris Miller, in an interview with the press, said to the H-1Bs in essence, ``If you don't like it, go home'':
"They don't have to use the H-1B program They can stay in their own country or they can go to another country. They are trying to turn this into an entitlement program."
This is an amazing statement for Miller to make. He has repeatedly claimed that the H-1Bs are vital to the U.S. economy, so why would he invite them to leave the U.S.? His emotional outburst illustrates the fact that ISN's lobbying exposes the real reason why Miller's clients want H-1Bs, indentured servitude.
(5) Question: The industry says H-1Bs comprise only a small percentage of their workers. If that is true, why is there such a controversy? -- The Department of Commerce, in their report Digital Economy 2000 (June 5, 2000), found that H-1Bs now account for 28% of all information technology industry hires requiring at least a Bachelor's degree. Moreover, many of the large employers claiming that only a small proportion of ``their'' work forces consists of H-1Bs are hiding behind the fact that they ``rent'' many H-1B workers from agencies.
(6) Question: How has the high-tech slowdown since 2001 affected H-1B usage? -- Since jobs were now scarce, the H-1Bs were even more beholden to their employers than before.
The industry lobbyists, embarrassed by the fact that massive layoffs occurred almost immediately after the lobbyists got Congress to approve an increase in the H-1B quota, tried to spin the news their way. They predicted that the new larger quota would not be used, and ``therefore'' employers must be hiring Americans instead of H-1Bs. But the facts show this analysis to be incorrect.
In 2001, the number of new H-1B visas issued was up, while job openings were down. Clearly, American employers in 2001 were even more keenly interested in H-1Bs than in the past. This is apparently due to the fact that the economic tightening caused employers to have increased interest in hiring cheaper labor.
One firm, ADEA, even issued a press release in May 2001 in which it blatantly announced it would actively recruit such workers, in order to take advantage of their desperate status. Thus, although the numbers of H-1Bs hired may have been down, the percentage of new openings being filled by H-1Bs may have actually increased.
Also in 2001, in the midst of a recession, Dun and Bradstreet admitted to (legally) laying off American workers and replacing them with H-1Bs. The firm also forced the American workers to train their H-1B replacments, a common action in such situations.
The number of new H-1B visas issued did fall in 2002, but that was simply a result of the precipitous drop in job openings that year, even relative to 2002. But again this did not mean employers were acting any more responsibly than before. Indeed, a rough analysis indicated that the percentage of new IT jobs filled by H-1Bs was increasing, not decreasing.
I have posted this to prompt some FReeper discussion. I think that:
(a) IT is the point of the wedge - the H-1B program has been successful for industry for IT, so logically they will attempt to extend it to other occupations.
(b) The studies clearly show that US Citizens are being pushed out of an entire job sector by "indentured servants".
(c) The studies clearly show that older IT workers are doomed. For example: "...Five years after finishing college, about 60 percent of computer science graduates are working as programmers; at 15 years the figure drops to 34 percent, and at 20 years - when most are still only age 42 or so - it is down to 19 percent. Clearly part of this attrition is voluntary, but most are forced to seek other work when they see the handwriting on the cubicle wall: Employers do not want to hire older programmers. It should be noted that other technical fields do not show this rapid decline of work in their area. For example, consider civil engineering majors. Six years after graduation, 61% of them are working as civil engineers, and 20 years after graduation, the rate is still 52%; compare this to the decline for computer science majors from 57% to 19%..."
(d) THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU!
From a politically conservative perspective, what is the solution? Do you think this is a real problem or not? Do you think it will remain only an IT issue or will it move into other areas where lobbyists may claim a "shortage"?
Oddly enough, I was in favor of H1B's when I worked for a company that barely used them at all. It was when I switched to a company using them heavily that I noticed the undeniable abuse. In my ignorance, I was willing to believe the PR spin about the need for more H1B's. More knowledge opened my eyes to the point that I can cite examples for every point made above.
I'm not going for more training, will not invest the time to learn any new languages or technologies. No ROI in terms of time or money for that. My next move will be self-employment, in whatever I can make a go in.
You parents with H.S. or college kids who are considering an IT career: think carefully about it. Ten years ago jobs were plentiful and well-paid. Not now. And you bust yer a$$ 1) getting there and 2) staying there.
The only thing that qualifies a applicant these days is their H1-B visa. Americans need not apply, and that IS the way it is. I doubt you actually work in the IT industry, as back on a previous thread you didn't even know what a database was and how it was used. You're analytical skills are sorely lacking, and for you to pass judgement on others technically is ludricrous.
This says it all.
When people with the proper education, skills, and experience are not even called into an interview, when that employer proceeds to recruit junior H1-B personnel, when those employers state that a shortage exist where it doesn't, I'd there is a SERIOUS problem with this. It is NOT just me saying this, it is a vast range of people saying it.
Take your insults elsewhere, I'm TYRING to have a reasonable conversation here and your jag-off routine isn't cutting it.
If you want to claim to be a QA engineer or manager, you should expect to be held accountable for your statements. The statements that you made on that other thread indicated to me that you were no such thing. You try to persuade others with the argument that there are few qualified applicants, as if you actually know that to be true. How could you know that to be true if you yourself are not qualified to make that determination?
It most certainly does.
I'd SAY there is a SERIOUS problem with this..
thanks for the post.
Perfect idea if combined with complete abolishment of welfare, food stamps, unemployment benefits etc ... Borders should be completely open so Americans will have to learn to became competitive with Chinese, Indians while the business can relocate across the world. And who knows, maybe some more indolent people will move out of the country (to Europe or Canada for example).
What the heck? Let market governs EVERYTHING! Let auctions replace the silly and wasteful elections - the most successful are the most qualified to rule. Army, police should be privatised and let them be based on profit. Justice system can be made much more efficient if based on a fee system - O.J.s of this world instead of paying lawyers will be able to purchase the favorable sentence without all the confussion. Roads should have toll-houses. Etc, etc ... </SARCASM>
This is the ad:
MORTGAGE - Expanding co. in Silver Spg. looking for H-1B visa holders. Will sponsor new candidates or continue to sponsor from other financial fields, strong English skills a must. Spanish or Portuguese a plus.
Isn't this against the law to specifically seek out foreign workers instead of American citizens? Anybody, any thoughts on the legality of this? I find it hard to believe in the hot Washington dc real estate market that they cannot find Americans to fill this job. It appears that they are not advertising to fill a specific job since the ad is so vague, it seems more likely that they are seeking out H-1B's specifically. Some type of scam, maybe? Scam Immigration lawyers?
How to Underpay H-1B Workers
One of the canards H-1B supporters use is the claim that H-1B is not used to depress wages because the law requires employers to pay the prevailing wage. Yet, whenever the government releases salary figures for H-1B programmers they are significantly less then what Americans make. The following is a real example of how the system can be manipulated to pay H-1B workers significantly less than Americans.
In 2001 Bank of America (BofA) in Charlotte, NC "outsourced" its Human Resources (HR) functions to a company called Exult. As part of the arrangement, the Bank of America employees supporting these functions were made Exult employees.
The affected employees had very specialized skills in that they worked with PeopleSoft and Oracle. The lowest advertise salary we found in the Charlotte for PeopleSoft programmers was $65,000 and the highest was $115,000. This range is consistent with the reported salaries ($70,000-$90,000) of the BofA/Exult employees who lost their jobs.
Companies who wish to import H-1B workers are required to file a Labor Condition Application (LCA) with the Department of Labor showing that they are, in fact, paying the H-1B workers according to the law. Keep in mind is that the law only allows the Department of Labor to ensure that the LCA form is filled out correctly. The Department of Labor does not validate the prevailing wage.
Attached below is an LCA filed by HCL for some of the H-1B replacements at BofA/Exult. The salary for the H-1B workers is $39,184, about half of what the people they replaced made. So how can HCL claim they are paying the prevailing wage?
The first step used here in the wage depression process is to call the H-1B workers generic "systems analysts". So instead of using the
The LCA says that the employer used OES (The Bureau of Labor Statistics "Occupational Employment Survey") to get the prevailing wage. OES put the mean salary for "systems analysts" in Charlotte, NC at $60,150, a figure significantly greater than what the H-1B workers were
The Department of Labor provides an additional service to assist employers to depress wages in their on-line LCA system. There, employers can get a prevailing wage for Level 1 ("Beginning level employees") workers and Level 2 ("Fully competent employees") workers, which in this example are $41,246 and $69,618 respectively. So now the employer claims the H-1B workers are "Beginning level employees" and uses the lower wage as the prevailing wage.
Even if the law is not being violated, note that HCL is paying these supposedly "highly-skilled" and "best and brightest" employees the lowest wage it can possibly get away with, right down to the last dollar.
Ok, let's check it out..
Somebody already provided a link to zazona's page. The DB has TONS of apparent duplicates.
It has been demonstrated on that thread that it is common for companies to submit multiple applications with the same job title and start date. There are NOT necessarily any duplicates, no matter what you attempt to say to the contrary.
These duplicates COULD be from the original DOL database, they COULD be from whatever procedure zazona is using to make the copy, or the COULD be from the procedure they're using to grab the data for user queries.
An exact copy is a FILE copy, not a database record copy. You DO know the difference don't you? If there were query errors, they'd be consistant across queries which use the same search criteria. Again, this is not the case. Of course, you should know that too.
If you don't know that then it's YOU that is LIEING about your supposed experience.
Do you know what the acronyms UT, IT, and ST signify? What about regression testing, what is that?
Any query of this database will show these duplicates and further investigation will show that there's no procedural reason for these (ie you'll see multiple identical applications for 30 H1Bs from 1 company and another company with a single application for 100, clearly demonstrating that 30 is not the single application cap).
Why doesn't someone ask the DOL what it means? It IS their data in case you forgot that simple fact.
You're "explanations" ran the gamut from terrorism to accusing me of being a shill.
No, I said that fraud is rampant in the immigration system, as that is what the GAO had found. It is the GAO that said that this leaves the door open to terrorism. I simply explained that "extra" work visas could be sold on the blackmarket. ONE of the possibilities is that a terrorist COULD easily purchase one of these visas. I didn't say that "terrorism" is the CAUSE of these so-called duplicate records, which is what you consistently insist that I said.
My explanation is simple: the DB sucks, I place no blame but I do say the company PRESENTING the data bears responsibility for explaining the problems to those querying it.
You CONSISTENTLY attempt to discredit the data. That is why I suspect your motives here are far removed from an innocent curiosity or sincere interest in the validity of the data. Your ONLY motive appears to be to discredit the information in ANY manner possible.
The owners of this site have requested people not drag arguments from one thread to the other, they've asked people to be respectful and not start flame wars.
I'm simply not buying your qualifications as a QA engineer. Hey, maybe you ARE a manager, as I HAVE seen a few of them that shouldn't have had the position they did. There are also administrative positions that require little or no knowledge technically, but rarely is that true in QA. I'm not trying to start a war, I'm simply stating my observations. If you simply gave your opinion, perhaps I'd give you a pass on your prior assertions. BUT, you are indicating to all of us that you are involved in QA. What IS it exactly that you test?
Quick question that you can choose to answer either here or there. What is UT, IT, and ST in relation to QA?
I second that.
|Automation Matrix Presents|
|An Analysis of the LCA Database|
When a company wishes to import an H-1B worker, they must follow certain procedures. They must first file an LCA request. This single LCA request may contain a multiple number of Visa requests. Once the LCA request is certified, the company is free to submit individual Visa Petitions for each worker they import. They may submit as many Visa Petitions and import as many workers as were initially requested on the certified LCA. The individual Visa Petitions are then granted for each worker imported.
This statistics on this page reflect only the number of requests within certified LCA submissions, not the number of workers currently here. As soon as the government sees fit to provide the complete data on Visa Petition statistics, I will be happy to provide them here. For now, the government and other H-1B advocates like to keep us guessing. A preliminary investigation of these Visa Petition statistics may be found at:
Check Out the Visa Petition Statistics
Labor Condition Application Database
H-1B LCA Requests 10/1/1998 to 10/16/2001
|H-1B LCA Requests Submitted||1,101,159|
|H-1B LCA Requests Certified||986,972|
A single certified request may contain many Visa Requests.
|Total H-1B Certified Visa Requests||4,075,021|
|Visa Start Date||Certified LCA Requests||H-1B Visa Requests|
|Occupation Title||H-1B Visa Requests|
|System Analysis and Programming||2,296,732|
|Accountants, Auditors and Related||200,807|
|Other Computer Related||196,371|
|Other Architecture, Engineering and Surveying||77,859|
|Miscellaneous Managers and Officials||62,184|
|College and University Education||59,850|
|Other in Administrative Occupations||58,026|
|Miscellaneous Professional, Technical and Managerial||50,135|
|Physicians and Surgeons||47,948|
|Occupations in Economics||41,794|
|Budget and Management Systems Analysis||40,345|
|Data Communications and Networks||37,028|
|Employer Name||H-1B Visa Requests|
|Group One Therapy||169,666|
|Deloitte Consulting LLC||38,252|
|Hps America Inc.||37,616|
|Langeveld Bulb Co., Inc.||32,000|
|Baton Rouge International Inc.||31,483|
|Continental Graphics Inc.||31,001|
|Ernst & Young LLP||26,392|
|The Metal Kitchen||25,000|
|Cisco Systems Inc.||22,558|
|Tata Consultancy Services||22,128|
|Cap Gemini Ernst & Young US||19,255|
|Many have asked why I am averaging the salaries of those earning under $100,000 a year. The answer is, I was forced to choose a cutoff figure because of some ridiculous data in the database. One LCA asserted that the individual was to be paid 32 Million a year! Many others stated annual salaries of several million a year for more than one worker. Some may have been mistakes and some may have been submitted to bolster the average wage.
For this reason I am averaging only those annual wages below $100,000 a year. One may see from the final chart, that workers in most job categories average over 90% for salaries under the $100,000 limit. I have no doubt, that by excluding the ridiculously high figures, we gain a far more accurate picture of the average wage of over 90% of the workers.
The averages, based on the salaries within each LCA, are not necessarily what the imported worker received. No one checks to see if they are actually paid the salary listed on the submitted LCA.
|System Analysis and Programming||$55,447.94|
|Accountants, Auditors and Related||$43,433.79|
|Other Computer Related||$60,441.01|
|Other Architecture, Engineering and Surveying||$58,362.49|
|Miscellaneous Managers and Officials||$58,811.84|
|College and University Education||$40,756.79|
|Other in Administrative Occupations||$44,078.79|
|Miscellaneous Professional, Technical and Managerial||$51,628.98|
|Physicians and Surgeons||$53,014.55|
|Occupations in Economics||$47,148.15|
|Budget and Management Systems Analysis||$49,634.14|
|Data Communications and Networks||$55,797.50|
|System Analysis and Programming||98%|
|Accountants, Auditors and Related||94%|
|Other Computer Related||97%|
|Other Architecture, Engineering and Surveying||98%|
|Miscellaneous Managers and Officials||83%|
|College and University Education||96%|
|Other in Administrative Occupations||98%|
|Miscellaneous Professional, Technical and Managerial||86%|
|Physicians and Surgeons||59%|
|Occupations in Economics||95%|
|Budget and Management Systems Analysis||92%|
|Data Communications and Networks||98%|
Send a donation!!!
HELP SUPPORT this web page!!!
There are many existing organizations actively fighting the H-1B plan.
|The Zazona Website Park - Get The Facts about H-1B at this website. This site has a huge selection of H-1B related research as well as letters of opinion about H-1B.
The LCA Database. A searchable database that contains thousands of U.S. companies who hire H-1Bs. You can view H-1B applications by company name, job category, location, and salary. Find out which companies are hiring foreign workers and for which kinds of jobs.
Petition to Abolish the H-1B Visa Program. Sign a petition to abolish the H1-B Visa Program. These petitions are collected and sent directly to Congress.
|Petition to Abolish H-1B - Sign this petition to give Congress the message - NO MORE H-1B. This petition will go to Capitol Hill to give them our message.|
A Guild of Professional Programmers - They have huge archives detailing the politics behind H-1B and why this program is destroying the scientific infrastructure in the U.S.
Numbers USA - Send free faxes to your politicians to protest H-1B. This organization takes up all aspects of legal and illegal immigration.
|In the last ten years, I have worked with many H-1B's. Most have been from India and occasionally from China. I have found the majority to be intelligent, capable programmers who I enjoyed working with.
My gripe is not with the H-1B's, as I could never fault someone for taking advantage of an opportunity. In fact, I have admired many for traveling halfway around the world to do so, a prospect I would never consider.
My gripe is with the government, whose regulations have flooded the job market. My gripe is with the Corporations for bribing the government with campaign donations and convincing them to disregard their Citizen's best interests.
In line with this sentiment, please visit the Corporate Greed page.
Anybody involved in software understands the following terms;
Anyone with a CS degree could tell you that...
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