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H-1B Study (All you US Citizen IT Workers are TOAST!)
U.S. House Judiciary Committee Testimony ^ | September 10, 2002 | Dr. Norman Matloff

Posted on 11/13/2002 10:28:24 AM PST by dark_lord

Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage

Due to an extensive public relations campaign orchestrated by an industry trade organization, the Information Technology Association of America (ITAA), a rash of newspaper articles have been appearing since early 1997, claiming desperate labor shortages in the information-technology field. Frantic employers complain that they cannot fill many open positions for computer programmers.

Yet readers of the articles proclaiming a shortage would be perplexed if they also knew that Microsoft only hires 2% of its applicants for software positions, and that this rate is typical in the industry. Software employers, large or small, across the nation, concede that they receive huge numbers of re'sume's but reject most of them without even an interview. One does not have to be a ``techie'' to see the contradiction here. A 2% hiring rate might be unremarkable in other fields, but not in one in which there is supposed to be a ``desperate'' labor shortage. If employers were that desperate, they would certainly not be hiring just a minuscule fraction of their job applicants.

Here is a table showing the actual number of job applicants hired for a variety of companies:

American Management Systems 2%
Broderbund Software 1%
Cisco 5%

Cohesive 2%
Datascan 5%
Deltanet 4%
ECbridges 2%
Flashpoint Technology 2 to 5%
R.D. Raab 1%

H.L. Yoh 4%
Inktomi less than 5%
Microsoft 2%
Net Perceptions 2%
New England firm 1%
Qualcomm 4.5%

Radiant Systems under 1%
Red Hat Linux under 1%
Tangis under 1%

Table 1: Percent of software applicants hired

In other words, there is no shortage of ``bodies,'' i.e. there is no shortage of experienced computer programmers. The problem is that employers are not willing to hire them. Employers are only willing to hire from three narrow categories of programmers:
* New or recent (within a few years of graduation) college graduates, who have cheaper salaries. Note, though, that even among new computer science graduates, fewer than half are hired as programmers.
* Foreign nationals on work visas, who have cheaper salaries.
* A relatively small number of experiencedprogrammers who have background in certain highly-specialized software technologies.

Dr. Matloff says: "Hiring managers have often complained to me that their firm's Human Resources Dept. screens out resume's of applicants who the managers feel qualified. HR apparently decides to screen out the applicants who are too expensive or too old - and then complains that there is a ``shortage'' of applicants...There does seem to be coordination among the HR departments of the various firms. The HR departments of the major firms in Silicon Valley hold monthly meetings, at which the firms exchange information with each other on policy, salaries and so on. (Personal communication from Paul Donnelly, IEEE-USA, June 30, 2000.)...All the firms hire an extremely low percentage of their programming applicants, due to the fact that all the firms overstate job requirements...Almost all firms aim for applicants having three to seven years (or two to eight) of experience."

He says: "It seems safe to say that experience may not be the most valued commodity, according to a survey of 200 IT managers nationwide conducted by InformationWeek Research in May. Though age wasn't specified in the question, only 2% of the managers said they would most likely hire a worker with 10 or more years' experience. Almost half-46%-preferred to hire a worker with four to 10 years' experience, while 26% said they would hire a worker with less than three years' experience, and another 26% wanted an entry-level worker or recent college graduate."


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; Politics/Elections; Technical
KEYWORDS: h1b; jobs; programmers; unemployment; uselessolderfolks
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Some points made in the testimony by Dr. Matloff:

(1) Question: Are the H-1Bs paid the fair ``prevailing wage,'' as claimed by the industry? -- "There is a broad consensus that the H-1Bs are indeed exploited in terms of wages and working conditions." Exploitation of H-1B's

(2) Question: The industry says that it will need H-1B visas temporarily, until more programmers can be trained. Is this true? -- No, it's false and dishonest. The employers know that this labor ``shortage,'' in the manner they have defined it, will be permanent; they intend to rely heavily on H-1Bs permanently. H-1B usage not temporary

(3) Question: Why are the H-1Bs de facto indentured servants? -- Most H-1Bs hope to get U.S. permanent residency status, i.e. green cards. But during their sponsorship by employers for greencards, they are in essence indentured servants: The green-card process takes several years, so H-1Bs dare not change employers. Changing employers would mean starting the green-card clock all over again.

The legislation passed in late 2000 tempers the indentured servitude problem somewhat, but is far from a solution. Immigration attorneys estimate that H-1Bs will still typically have a period of indentured servitude of 3 or 4 years.

Starting in early 2001 (or late 2000), the industry experienced a sharp slowdown. There were now many more H-1Bs than jobs which employers wished to fill with H-1Bs. Accordingly, many employers no longer offered green card sponsorship when they hired H-1Bs. Though this would at first appear to at least give the H-1Bs more freedom of movement, they now had a new problem - deportation. If they were laid off or fired from one job, they would have to find another within 10 days, or face deportation. (Some immigration attorneys challenged this, but the INS chose not to respond.) So, it was de facto indentured servitude all over again. [This means that US citizens are competing against indentured servants who dare not ask for higher wages or anything else because they cannot change jobs. Guess who the employers prefer. --dl]

(4) Question: Since the industry says that the H-1Bs are so important to them, has it lobbied Congress to expedite the greencard process? -- Very few employers have done this. On the contrary, the ITAA's Harris Miller, in an interview with the press, said to the H-1Bs in essence, ``If you don't like it, go home'':
"They don't have to use the H-1B program They can stay in their own country or they can go to another country. They are trying to turn this into an entitlement program."
This is an amazing statement for Miller to make. He has repeatedly claimed that the H-1Bs are vital to the U.S. economy, so why would he invite them to leave the U.S.? His emotional outburst illustrates the fact that ISN's lobbying exposes the real reason why Miller's clients want H-1Bs, indentured servitude.

(5) Question: The industry says H-1Bs comprise only a small percentage of their workers. If that is true, why is there such a controversy? -- The Department of Commerce, in their report Digital Economy 2000 (June 5, 2000), found that H-1Bs now account for 28% of all information technology industry hires requiring at least a Bachelor's degree. Moreover, many of the large employers claiming that only a small proportion of ``their'' work forces consists of H-1Bs are hiding behind the fact that they ``rent'' many H-1B workers from agencies.

(6) Question: How has the high-tech slowdown since 2001 affected H-1B usage? -- Since jobs were now scarce, the H-1Bs were even more beholden to their employers than before.
The industry lobbyists, embarrassed by the fact that massive layoffs occurred almost immediately after the lobbyists got Congress to approve an increase in the H-1B quota, tried to spin the news their way. They predicted that the new larger quota would not be used, and ``therefore'' employers must be hiring Americans instead of H-1Bs. But the facts show this analysis to be incorrect.
In 2001, the number of new H-1B visas issued was up, while job openings were down. Clearly, American employers in 2001 were even more keenly interested in H-1Bs than in the past. This is apparently due to the fact that the economic tightening caused employers to have increased interest in hiring cheaper labor.
One firm, ADEA, even issued a press release in May 2001 in which it blatantly announced it would actively recruit such workers, in order to take advantage of their desperate status. Thus, although the numbers of H-1Bs hired may have been down, the percentage of new openings being filled by H-1Bs may have actually increased.
Also in 2001, in the midst of a recession, Dun and Bradstreet admitted to (legally) laying off American workers and replacing them with H-1Bs. The firm also forced the American workers to train their H-1B replacments, a common action in such situations.
The number of new H-1B visas issued did fall in 2002, but that was simply a result of the precipitous drop in job openings that year, even relative to 2002. But again this did not mean employers were acting any more responsibly than before. Indeed, a rough analysis indicated that the percentage of new IT jobs filled by H-1Bs was increasing, not decreasing.

I have posted this to prompt some FReeper discussion. I think that:
(a) IT is the point of the wedge - the H-1B program has been successful for industry for IT, so logically they will attempt to extend it to other occupations.
(b) The studies clearly show that US Citizens are being pushed out of an entire job sector by "indentured servants".
(c) The studies clearly show that older IT workers are doomed. For example: "...Five years after finishing college, about 60 percent of computer science graduates are working as programmers; at 15 years the figure drops to 34 percent, and at 20 years - when most are still only age 42 or so - it is down to 19 percent. Clearly part of this attrition is voluntary, but most are forced to seek other work when they see the handwriting on the cubicle wall: Employers do not want to hire older programmers. It should be noted that other technical fields do not show this rapid decline of work in their area. For example, consider civil engineering majors. Six years after graduation, 61% of them are working as civil engineers, and 20 years after graduation, the rate is still 52%; compare this to the decline for computer science majors from 57% to 19%..."
(d) THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU!

From a politically conservative perspective, what is the solution? Do you think this is a real problem or not? Do you think it will remain only an IT issue or will it move into other areas where lobbyists may claim a "shortage"?

Thoughts? Comments?

1 posted on 11/13/2002 10:28:24 AM PST by dark_lord
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To: dark_lord
I have seen major companies in Phoenix using hordes of workers of Indian extraction. I'm sure they are H-1B workers. I am against expanding H-1B legislation because it skews the labor market in favor of immigrants willing to serve as indentured servants, stifling competition. This is an example of the Congress giving itself special powers that companies then can then conveniently "purchase." The labor marked should be a level playing (or working) field. Labor law is so convoluted, though. I'm also for lowering the minimum wage to zero and rescinding a lot of EEOC and OSHA regulations so the labor market can govern itself. But them I'm a dreamer and a lot of this probably is contradictory. Sigh.
2 posted on 11/13/2002 10:40:36 AM PST by TenthAmendmentChampion
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To: dark_lord
With large companies outsourcing their IT requirements to IBM and EDS the market for IT talent will be consolidated down to a couple of major players instead of individual companies. What does that mean? It means that they can lobby more effectively for more H1B visas as they have a huge financial incentive to do so.
3 posted on 11/13/2002 10:45:35 AM PST by lelio
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To: dark_lord
American companies want to increase the supply of IT workers in order to keep costs down (more supply, lower price). Its that simple. Over time price will allocate scarce resources and people will get the education and training to do these jobs at a market price. I think the real question is does the US need to increase its population? I think not. A corallary question is why has the government done favors for these companies by allowing them to import labor? I think it shouldn't.

I am an IT manager and have worked with plenty of H-1B coders (primarily Indians and Chinese). They are fine people and work hard. No problem with them or their work. I just think charity begins at home.
4 posted on 11/13/2002 10:46:14 AM PST by RKV
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To: dark_lord
H1B is now, and always has been a fraud, I am severely disappointed, but not overly suprised, that Bush extended this law. There are some allegations of payback to big business and donors that are not democratic inventions... administrations H1B actions and the origional H1B act in the first place, definately are evidence of that.
5 posted on 11/13/2002 10:47:39 AM PST by HamiltonJay
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To: dark_lord
I have come around on this topic in the past couple of years. I now agree that H1B visas are being terribly abused, and may not be needed at all.

Oddly enough, I was in favor of H1B's when I worked for a company that barely used them at all. It was when I switched to a company using them heavily that I noticed the undeniable abuse. In my ignorance, I was willing to believe the PR spin about the need for more H1B's. More knowledge opened my eyes to the point that I can cite examples for every point made above.

6 posted on 11/13/2002 11:00:02 AM PST by Snuffington
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To: Snuffington
The H1b Hall of Shame

http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/
7 posted on 11/13/2002 11:13:15 AM PST by FlyingA
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To: dark_lord
I've been at it for 23 years now, and yeah, I'm the old man in the shop (at age 47). I'm also the one many of the coders come to for help.

I'm not going for more training, will not invest the time to learn any new languages or technologies. No ROI in terms of time or money for that. My next move will be self-employment, in whatever I can make a go in.

You parents with H.S. or college kids who are considering an IT career: think carefully about it. Ten years ago jobs were plentiful and well-paid. Not now. And you bust yer a$$ 1) getting there and 2) staying there.

8 posted on 11/13/2002 11:13:40 AM PST by banjo joe
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To: dark_lord
BUMP
9 posted on 11/13/2002 11:21:15 AM PST by RippleFire
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To: banjo joe
I've just wrapped up a 23 year career in high-tech, and I'm also looking to do something else. A small business seems like the most likely thing, maybe HVAC or something like that. As far as high-tech goes, forget it. The field has been destroyed by our insane immigration policies, our H1-B policies and our "free trade" policies.
10 posted on 11/13/2002 11:31:10 AM PST by Billy_bob_bob
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To: dark_lord
Another 'fringe benefit' to companies with an H-1B workforce - they can point to all the Indian and Chinese people in their cubicles and crow about their orgainzation's 'diversity'. Ever so important in today's PC world.
11 posted on 11/13/2002 12:02:49 PM PST by GaltMeister
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: dark_lord
So the fact that the vast majority of applicants for a position are hideously under qualified is supposed to mean what exactly? When I was hiring for QA positions I'd get 30 to 50 resumes, prune down to 5 that I'd bring in for an interview and hopefully hire 1. The hardest part was generally getting 5 worthy of interview, I sorted resumes into 3 piles: yes, maybe, and no. If I got 30 resumes the yes pile on first pass would usually be 2 or 3, about twice that many maybes and everybody else was no (then there were the one or two I made fun of, there are some bad resumes out there).

For a high profile company I'm sure the numbers are much worse. I know Pima College gets as many as 200 applicants to a position. But there's nothing that garauntees even 1 is worth hiring.

Most of the people applying for jobs are simply not qualified for them. The percentage of applicants hired is pretty meaningless, all it really tells you is how much garbage the HR department has to wade through.
13 posted on 11/13/2002 1:40:58 PM PST by discostu
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To: MRAR15Guy56
" I'm telling my children to get a REAL TRADE. NO ONE will be able to remodel a kitchen or wire a
garage from effin India."

No, but Mexicans will do it cheaply.
14 posted on 11/13/2002 1:51:47 PM PST by Anomaly in Illinois
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To: FormerLurker
ping
15 posted on 11/13/2002 2:01:22 PM PST by ThinkDifferent
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To: dark_lord
Good job, am marking to read in more detail later.
16 posted on 11/13/2002 2:03:12 PM PST by dirtboy
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To: dark_lord; Red Jones; SR71A; BrowningBAR; Robert Lomax; No_Doll_i; getgoing; madfly; RLK; ...
ping
17 posted on 11/13/2002 2:05:33 PM PST by FormerLurker
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To: discostu
The percentage of applicants hired is pretty meaningless, all it really tells you is how much garbage the HR department has to wade through.

The only thing that qualifies a applicant these days is their H1-B visa. Americans need not apply, and that IS the way it is. I doubt you actually work in the IT industry, as back on a previous thread you didn't even know what a database was and how it was used. You're analytical skills are sorely lacking, and for you to pass judgement on others technically is ludricrous.

18 posted on 11/13/2002 2:10:00 PM PST by FormerLurker
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To: dark_lord
My daughter is an animator in Hollywood. She tells me much of the work that was done by Americans is going overseas or that many animators are here on special visas from Europe, etc, competing with union animators for jobs, keeping jobs scarce and pay low. This is a real burden for people who have spent a fortune for specialized education, and will continue to pay college loans for years to come. Much work has been exported to Canada because of tax breaks they give production companies, leaving Americans working in entertainment industry without work here. It goes on in every industry. This is one of th reasons so many people are screaming about huge corporate salaries. Those at the very top enrich themselves at the expense of those who do the work. The more things change, the more they remain the same. Or so it would seem.
19 posted on 11/13/2002 2:13:01 PM PST by vharlow
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To: FormerLurker
According to YOU. According to everybody else in the world at least 90% of ALL applicants for ANY position will be rejected.

Take your insults elsewhere, I'm TYRING to have a reasonable conversation here and your jag-off routine isn't cutting it.
20 posted on 11/13/2002 2:20:05 PM PST by discostu
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To: dark_lord
In 2001, the number of new H-1B visas issued was up, while job openings were down. Clearly, American employers in 2001 were even more keenly interested in H-1Bs than in the past. This is apparently due to the fact that the economic tightening caused employers to have increased interest in hiring cheaper labor.

One firm, ADEA, even issued a press release in May 2001 in which it blatantly announced it would actively recruit such workers, in order to take advantage of their desperate status. Thus, although the numbers of H-1Bs hired may have been down, the percentage of new openings being filled by H-1Bs may have actually increased. Also in 2001, in the midst of a recession, Dun and Bradstreet admitted to (legally) laying off American workers and replacing them with H-1Bs. The firm also forced the American workers to train their H-1B replacments, a common action in such situations.

The number of new H-1B visas issued did fall in 2002, but that was simply a result of the precipitous drop in job openings that year, even relative to 2002. But again this did not mean employers were acting any more responsibly than before. Indeed, a rough analysis indicated that the percentage of new IT jobs filled by H-1Bs was increasing, not decreasing.

This says it all.

21 posted on 11/13/2002 2:21:18 PM PST by A. Pole
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To: discostu
According to YOU. According to everybody else in the world at least 90% of ALL applicants for ANY position will be rejected.

When people with the proper education, skills, and experience are not even called into an interview, when that employer proceeds to recruit junior H1-B personnel, when those employers state that a shortage exist where it doesn't, I'd there is a SERIOUS problem with this. It is NOT just me saying this, it is a vast range of people saying it.

Take your insults elsewhere, I'm TYRING to have a reasonable conversation here and your jag-off routine isn't cutting it.

If you want to claim to be a QA engineer or manager, you should expect to be held accountable for your statements. The statements that you made on that other thread indicated to me that you were no such thing. You try to persuade others with the argument that there are few qualified applicants, as if you actually know that to be true. How could you know that to be true if you yourself are not qualified to make that determination?

22 posted on 11/13/2002 2:26:47 PM PST by FormerLurker
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To: A. Pole
This says it all.

It most certainly does.

23 posted on 11/13/2002 2:28:46 PM PST by FormerLurker
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Man, that SHOULD have said;

I'd SAY there is a SERIOUS problem with this..

24 posted on 11/13/2002 2:36:27 PM PST by FormerLurker
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To: dark_lord
Skimmed quickly, bump for later read.

thanks for the post.

25 posted on 11/13/2002 2:39:21 PM PST by usconservative
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To: FormerLurker
Spoken like someone who's never actually had to hire people. There's tons of things you look for in a resume. First is basic presentation how readable is the resume. Then you get into qualifications, which isn't just years of experience but how closely it relates to what's being done. Of course you also have to throw people out that are over qualified, everybody's got a budget to match if this applicant is going to blow your budget to pieces you simply can't hire them. And you've got to get PAST that stage to get called. I never had time to call 45 people and tell them I wouldn't be bringing them in for an interview. Hell I barely had time to call 5 people and schedule an interview. The more desperately you need to hire someone the harder it is to find the time.

As I started this off with, these hiring percentages give NO meaning to whether there is a shortage or not. Every business is going to have similar percentages of applicants hired. Hell even McDonalds rejects 90% of applicants. That's just how it is.

Everything I said on the other thread I stick to, and I invite people on this thread to check it out. Somebody already provided a link to zazona's page. The DB has TONS of apparent duplicates. These duplicates COULD be from the original DOL database, they COULD be from whatever procedure zazona is using to make the copy, or the COULD be from the procedure they're using to grab the data for user queries. If you don't know that then it's YOU that is LIEING about your supposed experience. Any query of this database will show these duplicates and further investigation will show that there's no procedural reason for these (ie you'll see multiple identical applications for 30 H1Bs from 1 company and another company with a single application for 100, clearly demonstrating that 30 is not the single application cap). You're "explanations" ran the gamut from terrorism to accusing me of being a shill. My explanation is simple: the DB sucks, I place no blame but I do say the company PRESENTING the data bears responsibility for explaining the problems to those querying it.

I DO know there are few qualified applicants because I've gone through the hiring process from both sides. Now stop this abusive insulting crap and start acting like a reasonable adult. The owners of this site have requested people not drag arguments from one thread to the other, they've asked people to be respectful and not start flame wars. Right now you're in violation of all three of these requests. Grow up, chill out, and stop being such a cry baby.
26 posted on 11/13/2002 2:40:48 PM PST by discostu
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To: dark_lord
thanks for posting on this;
27 posted on 11/13/2002 2:52:07 PM PST by Red Jones
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To: TenthAmendmentChampion
I'm also for lowering the minimum wage to zero and rescinding a lot of EEOC and OSHA regulations so the labor market can govern itself.

<SARCASM>
Perfect idea if combined with complete abolishment of welfare, food stamps, unemployment benefits etc ... Borders should be completely open so Americans will have to learn to became competitive with Chinese, Indians while the business can relocate across the world. And who knows, maybe some more indolent people will move out of the country (to Europe or Canada for example).

What the heck? Let market governs EVERYTHING! Let auctions replace the silly and wasteful elections - the most successful are the most qualified to rule. Army, police should be privatised and let them be based on profit. Justice system can be made much more efficient if based on a fee system - O.J.s of this world instead of paying lawyers will be able to purchase the favorable sentence without all the confussion. Roads should have toll-houses. Etc, etc ... </SARCASM>

28 posted on 11/13/2002 2:55:04 PM PST by A. Pole
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To: banjo joe
<p

29 posted on 11/13/2002 2:55:45 PM PST by madfly
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To: Free the USA; Tancredo Fan; Marine Inspector; Ajnin; agitator; Sabertooth; Tancred; Spiff; ...
FYI
30 posted on 11/13/2002 2:59:05 PM PST by madfly
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To: Clinton Is Scum; norton; Under the Radar; Slip18; Teacher317; NorseWood; cynicom; realpatriot71; ...
fyi
31 posted on 11/13/2002 3:02:27 PM PST by madfly
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To: dark_lord
The fact that a number of HR directors get together and share salary information, opens them up to charges of collusion to price fix. That may be a clumsy way to state it, but they are doing something that my industry has avoided. The proper way to obtain salary data is to ask third parties to conduct salary surveys for them. This way the HR directors could not be charged with discussing and setting salary policy amongst themselves. I believe this is something that could open them up to litigation if the right party were to challenge.
32 posted on 11/13/2002 3:06:01 PM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: dark_lord; All
This add was running in the Washintonpost this past sunday. It appears that they are exclusively fishing for H-1B visa employees who they can exploit instead of Ameican citizens.

This is the ad:

MORTGAGE - Expanding co. in Silver Spg. looking for H-1B visa holders. Will sponsor new candidates or continue to sponsor from other financial fields, strong English skills a must. Spanish or Portuguese a plus.

Isn't this against the law to specifically seek out foreign workers instead of American citizens? Anybody, any thoughts on the legality of this? I find it hard to believe in the hot Washington dc real estate market that they cannot find Americans to fill this job. It appears that they are not advertising to fill a specific job since the ad is so vague, it seems more likely that they are seeking out H-1B's specifically. Some type of scam, maybe? Scam Immigration lawyers?

33 posted on 11/13/2002 3:10:22 PM PST by healey22
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To: A. Pole
programmersguild.org


Up

How to Underpay H-1B Workers

One of the canards H-1B supporters use is the claim that H-1B is not used to depress wages because the law requires employers to pay the prevailing wage. Yet, whenever the government releases salary figures for H-1B programmers they are significantly less then what Americans make. The following is a real example of how the system can be manipulated to pay H-1B workers significantly less than Americans.

Background

In 2001 Bank of America (BofA) in Charlotte, NC "outsourced" its Human Resources (HR) functions to a company called Exult. As part of the arrangement, the Bank of America employees supporting these functions were made Exult employees.

At the end of 2001, Exult announced it was "outsourcing" its computer programming work to two "H-1B bodyshops", HCL and Hexaware. Unlike in the previous "outsourcing", the existing employees were fired and replaced by foreign H-1B workers. The American BofA/Exult employees were forced to train their replacements in order to collect a severance package.

The affected employees had very specialized skills in that they worked with PeopleSoft and Oracle. The lowest advertise salary we found in the Charlotte for PeopleSoft programmers was $65,000 and the highest was $115,000. This range is consistent with the reported salaries ($70,000-$90,000) of the BofA/Exult employees who lost their jobs.

The Method

Companies who wish to import H-1B workers are required to file a Labor Condition Application (LCA) with the Department of Labor showing that they are, in fact, paying the H-1B workers according to the law. Keep in mind is that the law only allows the Department of Labor to ensure that the LCA form is filled out correctly. The Department of Labor does not validate the prevailing wage.

Attached below is an LCA filed by HCL for some of the H-1B replacements at BofA/Exult. The salary for the H-1B workers is $39,184, about half of what the people they replaced made. So how can HCL claim they are paying the prevailing wage?

The first step used here in the wage depression process is to call the H-1B workers generic "systems analysts". So instead of using the
higher-than-average wage for the specialized skills of Oracle and PeopleSoft, the employer uses the wage for systems analysts as a whole.

The LCA says that the employer used OES (The Bureau of Labor Statistics "Occupational Employment Survey") to get the prevailing wage. OES put the mean salary for "systems analysts" in Charlotte, NC at  $60,150, a figure significantly greater than what the H-1B workers were
paid.

The Department of Labor provides an additional service to assist employers to depress wages in their on-line LCA system. There, employers can get a prevailing wage for Level 1 ("Beginning level employees") workers and Level 2 ("Fully competent employees") workers, which in this example are $41,246 and $69,618 respectively. So now the employer claims the H-1B workers are "Beginning level employees" and uses the lower wage as the prevailing wage.

The law only requires H-1B workers to be paid within 95% of the prevailing wage. The employer takes 95% of $41,246 and comes up with a wage of $39,184. Thus, the company is paying the H-1B workers about half of what the workers they replaced made. 

Even if the law is not being violated, note that HCL is paying these supposedly "highly-skilled" and "best and brightest" employees the lowest wage it can possibly get away with, right down to the last dollar.


34 posted on 11/13/2002 3:15:18 PM PST by madfly
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To: dark_lord
1) H1B workers can't speak English. They have grave difficulties in communicating with colleagues, users, and the public.
2) H1B workers suck. They can't get the job done without serious handholding.
3) I have never met an exception to (1) and (2) and I've worked with a lot of them.

Businesses that rely on these are making a huge mistake and will pay for it eventually by going down the tubes.
35 posted on 11/13/2002 3:15:54 PM PST by johnb838
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To: dark_lord
bump for later
36 posted on 11/13/2002 3:17:00 PM PST by GOPJ
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To: johnb838
The first company I was with had H1Bs, they kicked butt. 3 of the 5 best programmers I've ever worked with were H1Bs (the two worst were Americans raised in France and Sweden). Communication wasn't an issue, most bug discussion are in tech-talk anyway what accent it has doesn't matter too much.

Like so many things in life, especially those that revolve around personalities, your milage may vary.
37 posted on 11/13/2002 3:19:55 PM PST by discostu
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To: HamiltonJay
Between H-1B visas, sending work out of the country,moving complete American business's out of the country and illegals taking American's jobs, many people have lost their jobs, having a hard time finding a new job and many more are going to be in the same boat.

The more people they can put out of work in America and make their existance dependant on the largesse of the state, the faster America will approach a state where the people will have to give up soverenity and join the world government just to survive.

People do not learn from history.
Every time someone starts doing something that was tried and failed, they think they are smarter than the one's
that failed and won't "make the same mistakes".

A lot of the people and pols are just in it for the money and power and prestige and don't care.
They think also that they are so smart, they will be included in the rulership when the dust settles.

And then there's the people who, as long as no one takes away their Lexus, their Sony,their drugs, their booze, their dildo, they will give up any semblance of freedom.

No one in government is going to stop what's happening.
No President is going to reverse what has been done over the last couple centuries.
Anyone who thinks they will is living in a dream world.

Anyone who can think three moves ahead should be able to see.
38 posted on 11/13/2002 3:21:58 PM PST by philetus
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To: FormerLurker
think REVOLUTION;

for 20 years I wanted the repubicans to take over. Now I have a different dream about taking over the government.

The only way I'll stay in programming is if my small business selling the software I made succeeds. Testing & DeBugging Now!

I've been through two very large learning curves since I started 8 years ago. I was past 35 when I started, didn't even know I was too old. But I got a chance to work on a job where 10 people before me had failed. I was a rookie, but I built that very large database application from scratch for a good sized company that now runs itself on the work I did. Even with that success I've probably spent more time working without pay in learning mode than I have for pay.

My conclusion now is that the market is sick. There's no demand for my labor now despite my accomplishments, if I were to switch to a language and skill more marketable, then I'd be competing with h1b's and the situation wouldn't change much. No way am I going another learning curve for a chance to grovel in this market.

I wonder if George Bush will support my household and the other household I've supported through these years with this very heroic effort I've made to build a programming career. I wonder if George Bush will serve as a reference to help me get my old career revived.

What this h1b policy has done to over a million american men is as terrible and rotten as you can imagine. A society that disrespects and destroys its own men and their families by extension in this manner is a sick society.

We have ways of dealing with people like these republicans who gave us this policy. The republicans don't know it, but their mortal enemies have been created with this policy and these enemies will march until they achieve victory.

THINK REVOLUTION!!!
39 posted on 11/13/2002 3:30:41 PM PST by Red Jones
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To: discostu
Everything I said on the other thread I stick to, and I invite people on this thread to check it out.

Ok, let's check it out..

discostu's "proof"

Somebody already provided a link to zazona's page. The DB has TONS of apparent duplicates.

It has been demonstrated on that thread that it is common for companies to submit multiple applications with the same job title and start date. There are NOT necessarily any duplicates, no matter what you attempt to say to the contrary.

These duplicates COULD be from the original DOL database, they COULD be from whatever procedure zazona is using to make the copy, or the COULD be from the procedure they're using to grab the data for user queries.

An exact copy is a FILE copy, not a database record copy. You DO know the difference don't you? If there were query errors, they'd be consistant across queries which use the same search criteria. Again, this is not the case. Of course, you should know that too.

If you don't know that then it's YOU that is LIEING about your supposed experience.

Do you know what the acronyms UT, IT, and ST signify? What about regression testing, what is that?

Any query of this database will show these duplicates and further investigation will show that there's no procedural reason for these (ie you'll see multiple identical applications for 30 H1Bs from 1 company and another company with a single application for 100, clearly demonstrating that 30 is not the single application cap).

Why doesn't someone ask the DOL what it means? It IS their data in case you forgot that simple fact.

You're "explanations" ran the gamut from terrorism to accusing me of being a shill.

No, I said that fraud is rampant in the immigration system, as that is what the GAO had found. It is the GAO that said that this leaves the door open to terrorism. I simply explained that "extra" work visas could be sold on the blackmarket. ONE of the possibilities is that a terrorist COULD easily purchase one of these visas. I didn't say that "terrorism" is the CAUSE of these so-called duplicate records, which is what you consistently insist that I said.

My explanation is simple: the DB sucks, I place no blame but I do say the company PRESENTING the data bears responsibility for explaining the problems to those querying it.

You CONSISTENTLY attempt to discredit the data. That is why I suspect your motives here are far removed from an innocent curiosity or sincere interest in the validity of the data. Your ONLY motive appears to be to discredit the information in ANY manner possible.

The owners of this site have requested people not drag arguments from one thread to the other, they've asked people to be respectful and not start flame wars.

I'm simply not buying your qualifications as a QA engineer. Hey, maybe you ARE a manager, as I HAVE seen a few of them that shouldn't have had the position they did. There are also administrative positions that require little or no knowledge technically, but rarely is that true in QA. I'm not trying to start a war, I'm simply stating my observations. If you simply gave your opinion, perhaps I'd give you a pass on your prior assertions. BUT, you are indicating to all of us that you are involved in QA. What IS it exactly that you test?

40 posted on 11/13/2002 3:32:45 PM PST by FormerLurker
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To: FormerLurker
I'm not having this argument with you over again. Drop it or I'll start smacking the abuse button. Or resurect that thread so I can ignore over there. This is a different thread and Dark_Lord deserves the courtesty of not having you take it over with your sillyness.
41 posted on 11/13/2002 3:34:56 PM PST by discostu
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To: FormerLurker
WOW folks, lets keep this thread going.

The H1b Hall of Shame

http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/


42 posted on 11/13/2002 3:47:41 PM PST by FlyingA
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To: discostu
Let's agree that any furthur discussion on the old topic belongs on the old thread. I think I've said what I needed to say here in relation to that.

Quick question that you can choose to answer either here or there. What is UT, IT, and ST in relation to QA?

43 posted on 11/13/2002 3:50:31 PM PST by FormerLurker
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To: FlyingA
There's the DB in question.

And I'd just like to note, inspite of all the vimn vigor and BS FL will put forth I have said MUTLTIPLE times that the most likely source for the bad data is DOL. But I do believe that Zazona, as the presenters, should note that there's some pretty oddball stuff in there (like a company with 300 employees worldwide applying for 3000+ H1Bs on the same day... don't matter how you slice it that's odd).
44 posted on 11/13/2002 3:51:07 PM PST by discostu
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To: discostu
Your both making good points. so Let's not personalize
the issues. Lets back off from personalizing and see
if we all can keep this Thread going. Really, I think
it is very important to debate all the issues around H1B
Terrorizm links etc.

FlyingA


45 posted on 11/13/2002 3:52:46 PM PST by FlyingA
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To: FormerLurker
Oh look at you acting like the big man. I'm done with that topic, your cardiologist would probably recommend you be done with it too. The current topic is: what does the percentage of applicants hired have to do with anything, much less H1Bs? My belief: not a damn thing, most applicants (at least 90% in my experience) are rejected out of hand, with out even so much as a phone call, regardless of industry or "penetration" of foreign born workers in said industry.

As for your "quiz" on my work experience, I'll give you the same answer I give others: no. That's not the topic of discussion either. Especially a wide open job title related question like that where it all depends on how the company is organized.
46 posted on 11/13/2002 3:56:31 PM PST by discostu
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To: FlyingA
Your both making good points. so Let's not personalize the issues. Lets back off from personalizing and see if we all can keep this Thread going.

I second that.

47 posted on 11/13/2002 3:56:49 PM PST by A. Pole
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To: A. Pole
Ah Good. thanks Pole.

FlyingA

48 posted on 11/13/2002 4:00:24 PM PST by FlyingA
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To: dark_lord
From Automation Matrix


Automation Matrix Presents
An Analysis of the LCA Database

When a company wishes to import an H-1B worker, they must follow certain procedures. They must first file an LCA request. This single LCA request may contain a multiple number of Visa requests. Once the LCA request is certified, the company is free to submit individual Visa Petitions for each worker they import. They may submit as many Visa Petitions and import as many workers as were initially requested on the certified LCA. The individual Visa Petitions are then granted for each worker imported.

This statistics on this page reflect only the number of requests within certified LCA submissions, not the number of workers currently here. As soon as the government sees fit to provide the complete data on Visa Petition statistics, I will be happy to provide them here. For now, the government and other H-1B advocates like to keep us guessing. A preliminary investigation of these Visa Petition statistics may be found at:

Check Out the Visa Petition Statistics


Labor Condition Application Database

H-1B LCA Requests 10/1/1998 to 10/16/2001

H-1B LCA Requests Submitted 1,101,159
H-1B LCA Requests Certified 986,972

A single certified request may contain many Visa Requests.
Total H-1B Certified Visa Requests 4,075,021

Visa Start Date Certified LCA Requests H-1B Visa Requests
1998 58,134 298,246
1999 262,737 962,915
2000 396,181 1,489,591
2001 265,260 1,314,520
2002 4,399 9,416
Other 261 333


Top 15 Occupations Being Replaced

Occupation Title H-1B Visa Requests
System Analysis and Programming 2,296,732
Therapists 202,633
Accountants, Auditors and Related 200,807
Other Computer Related 196,371
Electrical/Electronics Engineering 137,270
Other Architecture, Engineering and Surveying 77,859
Miscellaneous Managers and Officials 62,184
College and University Education 59,850
Other in Administrative Occupations 58,026
Miscellaneous Professional, Technical and Managerial 50,135
Physicians and Surgeons 47,948
Mechanical Engineering 46,071
Occupations in Economics 41,794
Budget and Management Systems Analysis 40,345
Data Communications and Networks 37,028


Top 15 Companies Requesting H-1B Visas

Employer Name H-1B Visa Requests
Group One Therapy 169,666
PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP 87,096
Syntel, Incorporated 43,252
Deloitte Consulting LLC 38,252
Hps America Inc. 37,616
Langeveld Bulb Co., Inc. 32,000
Baton Rouge International Inc. 31,483
Continental Graphics Inc. 31,001
Ernst & Young LLP 26,392
The Metal Kitchen 25,000
Oracle Corporation 23,352
Cisco Systems Inc. 22,558
Tata Consultancy Services 22,128
Cap Gemini Ernst & Young US 19,255
Intel Corporation 18,586



Average H1B Salaries Under $100,000 for the Top 15 Occupations

Many have asked why I am averaging the salaries of those earning under $100,000 a year. The answer is, I was forced to choose a cutoff figure because of some ridiculous data in the database. One LCA asserted that the individual was to be paid 32 Million a year! Many others stated annual salaries of several million a year for more than one worker. Some may have been mistakes and some may have been submitted to bolster the average wage.

For this reason I am averaging only those annual wages below $100,000 a year. One may see from the final chart, that workers in most job categories average over 90% for salaries under the $100,000 limit. I have no doubt, that by excluding the ridiculously high figures, we gain a far more accurate picture of the average wage of over 90% of the workers.

The averages, based on the salaries within each LCA, are not necessarily what the imported worker received. No one checks to see if they are actually paid the salary listed on the submitted LCA.

Occupation Title Salary
System Analysis and Programming $55,447.94
Therapists $43,735.86
Accountants, Auditors and Related $43,433.79
Other Computer Related $60,441.01
Electrical/Electronics Engineering $60,888.15
Other Architecture, Engineering and Surveying $58,362.49
Miscellaneous Managers and Officials $58,811.84
College and University Education $40,756.79
Other in Administrative Occupations $44,078.79
Miscellaneous Professional, Technical and Managerial $51,628.98
Physicians and Surgeons $53,014.55
Mechanical Engineering $52,016.39
Occupations in Economics $47,148.15
Budget and Management Systems Analysis $49,634.14
Data Communications and Networks $55,797.50




Percent of H1B's with Salaries Under $100,000 for the Top 15 Occupations
Occupation Title Percent
System Analysis and Programming 98%
Therapists 99%
Accountants, Auditors and Related 94%
Other Computer Related 97%
Electrical/Electronics Engineering 96%
Other Architecture, Engineering and Surveying 98%
Miscellaneous Managers and Officials 83%
College and University Education 96%
Other in Administrative Occupations 98%
Miscellaneous Professional, Technical and Managerial 86%
Physicians and Surgeons 59%
Mechanical Engineering 99%
Occupations in Economics 95%
Budget and Management Systems Analysis 92%
Data Communications and Networks 98%




HELP OUT!!!

Send a donation!!!

HELP SUPPORT this web page!!!



There are many existing organizations actively fighting the H-1B plan.

The Zazona Website Park - Get The Facts about H-1B at this website. This site has a huge selection of H-1B related research as well as letters of opinion about H-1B.

The LCA Database. A searchable database that contains thousands of U.S. companies who hire H-1Bs. You can view H-1B applications by company name, job category, location, and salary. Find out which companies are hiring foreign workers and for which kinds of jobs.

Petition to Abolish the H-1B Visa Program. Sign a petition to abolish the H1-B Visa Program. These petitions are collected and sent directly to Congress.
Petition to Abolish H-1B - Sign this petition to give Congress the message - NO MORE H-1B. This petition will go to Capitol Hill to give them our message.

A Guild of Professional Programmers - They have huge archives detailing the politics behind H-1B and why this program is destroying the scientific infrastructure in the U.S.

www.programmersguild.org

Numbers USA - Send free faxes to your politicians to protest H-1B. This organization takes up all aspects of legal and illegal immigration.


Other Links


Open Letter




Webmaster's note:

In the last ten years, I have worked with many H-1B's. Most have been from India and occasionally from China. I have found the majority to be intelligent, capable programmers who I enjoyed working with.

My gripe is not with the H-1B's, as I could never fault someone for taking advantage of an opportunity. In fact, I have admired many for traveling halfway around the world to do so, a prospect I would never consider.

My gripe is with the government, whose regulations have flooded the job market. My gripe is with the Corporations for bribing the government with campaign donations and convincing them to disregard their Citizen's best interests.

In line with this sentiment, please visit the Corporate Greed page.


Email Automation Matrix at Automation Matrix


49 posted on 11/13/2002 4:10:11 PM PST by FormerLurker
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To: discostu
Especially a wide open job title related question like that where it all depends on how the company is organized.

Anybody involved in software understands the following terms;

Unit Tests
Integration Tests
System Tests

Anyone with a CS degree could tell you that...

50 posted on 11/13/2002 4:14:41 PM PST by FormerLurker
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