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I Have a Bone To Pick with GW Bush

Posted on 11/14/2002 3:44:40 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March

William Safire's editorial today is heating up an important debate. There are two camps: "This is war." vs. "This is Orwellian." I want to open a third camp. "This is ridiculous."

Our borders are wide open. Terrorists could blindside us at will. The foreign threats are much greater than the domestic threats in this war of terrorism. So naturally, we do NOTHING about that. Instead, we strip away our privacies. Sorry. That doesn't fly. If it were truly important to take away our privacy, the borders would have been secured a year ago.

It appears that it is easier to ask us to live in fish bowls than to tell illegal immigrants that we cannot afford to have such loose border control anymore. It appears to be a political calculation. Does that not reduce the lost privacy aspect to nothing but political calculations? Which is more important? Our safety? Or as Dick Morris says it, the 'browning of America'? But hey, the 'browning of America' ends when the borders are secure. Thus, the ridiculousness aspect only grows.

GW Bush is well intentioned, I'm sure. But his political calculations reveal that taking away our privacy can't be all that important, if he isn't willing to tick off parts of the Hispanic community by securing our borders.

This is my suggestion, for what it's worth:

1. First seal the borders.

2. Mention a timeline for this lost privacy. No 'continuation triggers' either. Settle for 4 years of this lost privacy. Then destroy the data of all non-suspects. Only keep data of suspects that is deemed worth keeping by a warrant.

3. Non-citizens can be monitored and that info can be filed at will. Americans generally would like that idea.

4. Put someone in charge other than Poindexter. Why give ammo to the desperate DNC? It makes no sense.

If GW fails to heed this advice, I forsee political havoc. And I will be a part of it.


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1 posted on 11/14/2002 3:44:40 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
Lest we forget, these laws will survive Bush's term in office. Would you like a President Hillary Clinton (gasp) to have these powers?
2 posted on 11/14/2002 3:46:36 PM PST by ambrose
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
Eh?
3 posted on 11/14/2002 3:46:46 PM PST by Inspector Harry Callahan
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
BUMP!
4 posted on 11/14/2002 3:47:33 PM PST by Saundra Duffy
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To: ambrose
Very good point. We need this data base to sunset.
5 posted on 11/14/2002 3:48:03 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
How do you propose to seal the borders?
6 posted on 11/14/2002 3:48:11 PM PST by Ramius
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
I choose door #2.......

"This is Orwellian."

7 posted on 11/14/2002 3:49:55 PM PST by RJCogburn
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To: Inspector Harry Callahan
William Safire wrote an editorial that our privacy will be completely shredded. Poindexter, who I'm sure is a well-intentioned patriot [but also politically vulnerable due to Iran Contra], would be put in charge of this data base. I read this, fuming, thinking about how our borders were left wide open all this time while they plan to keep a record of every email. Every internet message. Every credit card purchase. All manner of things kept on file. Yet our borders are wide open.
8 posted on 11/14/2002 3:51:20 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
You have such practical recommendations. Perhaps you should run for elected office.
9 posted on 11/14/2002 3:51:38 PM PST by verity
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
Then destroy the data of all non-suspects. Only keep data of suspects that is deemed worth keeping by a warrant.

And you really think the feds would do this?

10 posted on 11/14/2002 3:52:11 PM PST by TomServo
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To: Ramius
Trent Lott is considering troops. Perhaps the troops could be replaced eventually with a wall. I personally would not mind using lots of hounds as well.
11 posted on 11/14/2002 3:52:27 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: RJCogburn
"This is Orwellian."

I don't blame you a bit. 40 years ago, Saffire's editorial would have been called sci-fi.
12 posted on 11/14/2002 3:53:46 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
Hear! Hear! We have over 10 million illegals in this country. Start with removing them before removing any citizens' rights.
13 posted on 11/14/2002 3:54:30 PM PST by Hoosier-Daddy
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To: verity
You have such practical recommendations. Perhaps you should run for elected office.

Are you really series? TY for the compliment. I scheme too much. No one would trust me. And the rats wouldn't have me. FReegards....

14 posted on 11/14/2002 3:56:12 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: ambrose
People say that about every govt. agency when they get started; the FBI and CIA etc. You are going to have to do better than that before convincing me this will become some group that will have unlimited power over my life.
15 posted on 11/14/2002 3:56:26 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
How about land mines?

How about including the fabled gun registration records the FBI/government is not supposed to be keeping into the database that is to be purged?

16 posted on 11/14/2002 3:58:00 PM PST by Frohickey
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
I don't think we need this at all. Get control of the borders and the need for this goes away. Not easy, I'm just not ready to throw out the Bill of Rights - not one word of it. TRANSACTIONAL ANONIMITY NOW!
17 posted on 11/14/2002 3:59:16 PM PST by RKV
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To: TomServo
I hear you. The feds would be tempted to keep that data, wouldn't they? And it would be hard for many Americans to trust Poindexter in particular. I wouldn't even want to trust the Pope with a data base like that.
18 posted on 11/14/2002 3:59:27 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: rwfromkansas
the FBI....will become some group that will have unlimited power over my life.

Ask the kids at Waco...oh, that's right.

19 posted on 11/14/2002 4:00:50 PM PST by RJCogburn
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
I hear you. The feds would be tempted to keep that data, wouldn't they?

They will keep it. Knowledge=Power. And the last time I checked, they ain't willin' to give it up. ;-)

20 posted on 11/14/2002 4:01:20 PM PST by TomServo
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To: Ramius
Maybe he wants to relocate the Great Wall of China.
21 posted on 11/14/2002 4:01:50 PM PST by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: Frohickey
I considered land mines along the border when I was a kid. Seemed more cost effective. But I'm afraid there is still some political correctness left, even if it takes a moron to knowingly enter a mine field.
22 posted on 11/14/2002 4:02:44 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
AWM,
I agree 100%. The sheeple are drunk on the Bush koolaide. I'm generally a Bush supporter, but this bill is insane.
23 posted on 11/14/2002 4:02:52 PM PST by demkicker
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
40 years ago, Saffire's editorial would have been called sci-fi.

And over the last couple of days on FR, it's been called bogus. I've seen at least four different threads on this, and some of the comments on those threads say Safire is all wet.

24 posted on 11/14/2002 4:02:59 PM PST by My2Cents
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To: Hoosier-Daddy
As an endless lines of trucks enter this country with unknown loads daily, while hundreds of thousands of people continue to crash our borders and enter this country illegally, at will.

Our cities are over crowded, our highways and freeways are jammed, most all of our schools are over crowded, our social services are being choked off, our jails and land fills are full, our energy resources are being strained, jobs are being lost.......while our so called leaders and politicians stand in stone cold silence in the face of this titanic immigration "free for all".

25 posted on 11/14/2002 4:03:00 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
Take note: this announcement came after the election.

Two years from now, people will be well conditioned and ignore the fact their every breath and keystroke is being monitored "for our own safety."

26 posted on 11/14/2002 4:03:04 PM PST by fone
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
How does "sealing the borders" deal with visa over-stayers and sleeper cells that have been here for years?

And why would you get so foamy about something you read in a newspaper column, without reading the bill for yourself or looking for the otherside of the argument?

27 posted on 11/14/2002 4:04:10 PM PST by Deb
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
Re:

1. First seal the borders. Isolationism never works.

2. Mention a timeline for this lost privacy. Let's not bury our head in the sand and hope they don't hit us again just because we feel a little nervous/worried when downloading pron. This requires sacrifice from all. Compared to what Lisa Beemers husband sacrificed, I don't mind my packets being sniffed.

3. Non-citizens can be monitored. From terrorist nations? AGREED.

28 posted on 11/14/2002 4:04:54 PM PST by ChadGore
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To: RedBloodedAmerican
Maybe he wants to relocate the Great Wall of China.

They already made that joke when Buchanan suggested a wall on the Mexico border. Guess what? They tried walls in some parts already.

29 posted on 11/14/2002 4:06:26 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: Joe Hadenuf
||| while our so called leaders and politicians stand in stone cold silence |||

I no longer find humor in the fact that year in, year out, decade in, decade out our elected officals run this country further and further into the abyss. Can they all be ignorant, or is the payoff(s) just too tempting to resist?

30 posted on 11/14/2002 4:08:27 PM PST by fone
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
"this is war", "This is Orwellian"

I offer possiblity #3

"this is totalitartian"
31 posted on 11/14/2002 4:10:07 PM PST by aSkeptic
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
Oh yea . .and one more thing. George W. Bush just called and told me he had no idea how YOU felt about these pressing issues and assured me that he was going to impliment them by the end of the week. He also wanted me to ask you if there are any personal requests he can entertain for you? Perhaps dancing a jig? Bunny hop ? Macareena ? Chicken Dance ? < / sarcasm off >
32 posted on 11/14/2002 4:10:38 PM PST by ChadGore
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To: ChadGore
This requires sacrifice from all.


Forward, Young Pioneers!

33 posted on 11/14/2002 4:11:16 PM PST by steve-b
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
I heard Neal Boortz talking about this issue on the radio this morning. The fact that you aren't banned for posting this thread is amazing.

Questioning Bush's two-fisted Hitlerian dictatorship is grounds for dismissal around here.

34 posted on 11/14/2002 4:11:25 PM PST by Inspector Harry Callahan
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To: ChadGore
GW cowers in the corner of the WH everytime he hears of Arthur's displeasure.
35 posted on 11/14/2002 4:13:08 PM PST by Deb
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To: Deb
How does "sealing the borders" deal with visa over-stayers and sleeper cells that have been here for years?

Like I wrote earlier, the data base on foreigners can remain. Rather than track citizens forever, we track foreign students/etc. forever.

And why would you get so foamy about something you read in a newspaper column, without reading the bill for yourself or looking for the otherside of the argument?

If you got the facts, please lay them out. Safire would not write an editorial like this, IMHO, if there was a chance it would backfire on him. I don't think he's eager to get drummed out of the political scene.

GW Bush, on the other hand, wants to keep us safe. I believe that. And like all good, effective presidents who see potential dangers, he wants to increase his power. It is only natural. But the long term consequences could be severe.

Oh and BTW, they already have Orwellian survelliance, such as Echelon. Half of what Safire wrote is already going on even before GW. Did they ever shut down Carnivore?

36 posted on 11/14/2002 4:16:53 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: Deb
GW cowers in the corner of the WH everytime he hears of Arthur's displeasure.

Maybe I'm a barometer.

37 posted on 11/14/2002 4:17:54 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
I always thought America had strict immigration policies similar to Australia.Last time i visited the US i was questioned for half an hour,my details checked on some computer and searched(just short of a full cavity search).Next time i might try and get entry via the Mexican border.
38 posted on 11/14/2002 4:19:42 PM PST by way_south_redneck
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To: Inspector Harry Callahan
Questioning Bush's two-fisted Hitlerian dictatorship is grounds for dismissal around here.

I don't think you understand the Code here very well. Personal privacy is a conservative goal. That is one reason why so many here support the national sales tax, so the IRS could be abolished. If I were to post nonsense about GW being 'the sniper' or something, I would hope they banned me.

39 posted on 11/14/2002 4:21:29 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: Inspector Harry Callahan
Don't let them take ya Harry! Keep that white pill behind your lower left molar, just in case.
40 posted on 11/14/2002 4:22:10 PM PST by habs4ever
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
Maybe you don't understand the concept of vanity and how it applies to FR posts.
41 posted on 11/14/2002 4:22:52 PM PST by ChadGore
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To: Deb
visa over-stayers and sleeper cells

We should deal with the phoney student and tourist visa holders first. Here's an illustrative story from my local newspaper:

Belmont County (Ohio) Northern Division Court Judge Frank Fregiato on Wednesday called for a nationwide manhunt for a Turkish man who failed to appear for a hearing on a traffic violation.

Bahadir Eker, 32, who said he was a tourist, but had a Bronx, N.Y. address, was stopped Oct. 26 by the Ohio State Highway Patrol on Mall Road near St. Clairsville for failing to obey a traffic-control device. A routine license check revealed Eker was driving with a suspended New York-issued license. Both charges are misdemeanors.

"I want this man pursued and arrested,'' Fregiato said Wednesday, adding that he wanted every piece of information posted to every authority across the country.

Eker needed a friend to act as a translator at his arraignment Nov. 8, stating that he did not understand English. He said he had been in the United States for seven months under a tourist's visa. After receiving no answer as to why his stay was so extended or why a tourist even needed an American driver's license, Fregiato had ordered that Eker provide proof of his passport and visa at Wednesday's pre-trial hearing.

"Just because you don't speak English doesn't preclude you from getting a driver's license,'' said New York Department of Motor Vehicles Deputy Director of Communications Mike Burns, who said Eker's license was issued in May 2001 and suspended because he failed to pay fines for two seatbelt violations.

Burns said Eker's license was obtained prior to new laws that require applicants to provide their actual Social Security registration card at the time they try to get a driver's license. Eker said in light of the happenings in Belmont County, investigators within the Department of Motor Vehicles are looking into how Eker obtained a license. "How he obtained a license is up to our investigators to see what proof he provided at that time,'' Burns said.

The court case captured the attention of a St. Clairsville man. Sener Calis told Fregiato that he was a native of Turkey and a United States citizen who took a day off from work Wednesday to offer his services as a translator. He said he left Turkey at the age of 18 to study engineering at The Ohio State University and has lived in the Ohio Valley since 1972.

"I love this country, and I don't want somebody from my home country to screw things up,'' Calis said after leaving the courtroom in Martins Ferry. "I don't want illegal aliens in this country, especially if they are here to bring harm to people.''

Calis said he was disappointed that Eker did not appear for the hearing. He said he wanted to serve as an impartial translator so court officials could know what was being said. "A friend would just translate whatever he wanted to,'' Calis said.

A spokesperson for the Charleston, W.Va. office for the Immigration and Naturalization Service said about 95 percent of those in the United States on a tourist's visa apply for some type of American driver's license, but that most are turned down because of their ineligibility to obtain a Social Security number. She said it is possible to obtain a Social Security number, but the applicant must explain why it is needed. [Does this make sense to anyone here?]

The visas are only valid for six months, she said, but the holder can reapply for an additional six months if the person can show financial support and a reason why the stay should be extended.

The spokesperson said Fregiato could order that Eker be deported because of his failure to appear, saying that is a violation of the visa regulations.

42 posted on 11/14/2002 4:23:57 PM PST by mountaineer
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
Re: If you got the facts, please lay them out

The onus isn't upon her to educate you on the topic at hand, that falls on YOUR shoulders.

43 posted on 11/14/2002 4:24:14 PM PST by ChadGore
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To: ChadGore
Perhaps 'seal' is a harsh term. We need to drastically cut down the flood of illegals. If we are unwilling to do that, then it is silly to give up privacy. We should have as much privacy as the average illegal immigrant until something is done about our borders.
44 posted on 11/14/2002 4:25:13 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
Oh yeah, you're a barometer all right.
45 posted on 11/14/2002 4:26:02 PM PST by habs4ever
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To: ChadGore
...Oh yea . .and one more thing. George W. Bush just called and told me he had no idea how YOU felt about these pressing issues ...

Are you insulting Bush? You are saying that he doesn't care what his conservative base thinks? Are you saying he isn't open to ideas? You know, I don't think he would appreciate that.

46 posted on 11/14/2002 4:27:40 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: habs4ever
LOL!
47 posted on 11/14/2002 4:28:20 PM PST by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: Deb
Me, too!!
48 posted on 11/14/2002 4:28:46 PM PST by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: ChadGore
I think if anyone doesn't see the problem with the Mexico border, such a one is beyond educating. I'm surprised that you didn't think of that yourself. As for showing 'the bill', senators often don't read bills, particularly omnibus bills. You are pressing on with a ploy that I've been around the block too long to fall for. That is why, if senators don't read every bill, that I would love to get quotes from one who does.
49 posted on 11/14/2002 4:30:57 PM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: Inspector Harry Callahan
Questioning Bush's two-fisted Hitlerian dictatorship is grounds for dismissal around here.

Bush is Hitler!!! Bush is Hitler!!! Bush is Hitler!!!

50 posted on 11/14/2002 4:32:17 PM PST by stands2reason
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