What was the turning point of World War II? When did we know we had won?

my squash ^ | 11/14/02 | Burkeman1

[Polybius]

"Weren't they called "jeep" carriers, or something like that?"

Something like that. I do believe that they provided their own air cover though.

Pick up a copy of "The Men of the Gambier Bay" by Edwin P. Hoyt for a good account of "Escort Carriers" in general and their most famous battle when, at Leyete Gulf, "Bull" Halsey took the Japanese bait and went off chasing empty Japanese carriers leaving the invasion beach unguarded against Japanese battleships except for a squadron of these Escort Carriers AKA Jeep Carriers AKA Baby Flattops AKA Kaiser Coffins.

When reporting for duty on the escort carriers, the new sailors would be told by the old salts that the escort carrier designation of CVE stood for "Combustible, Vulnerable, Expendable".

At Leyete Gulf, however, they saved the day.

[xp38]

There were many turning points as reading over these posts shows. I agree with # 34 that Kursk in Europe and Leyte in the Pacific were huge and probably answer the question. Another battle not mentioned much is the Battle of Britain. If that one had gone the other way a domino effect would have changed things all over the place.

[Sam Cree]

Thanks for the info.

[Sam Cree]

Thanks.

[Burkeman1]

Well- what was the battle of Britain? What was Hitler's goal there? The Brits make quite a point that they "defeated" the Lufftwaffe at the battle of Britain. They didn't. In fact, in German history, it is not even a battle. The Germans cut off battle as they were invading Russia. It was never a win for Britain at all.

[snopercod]

...the irrepressible system of communication by which the common soldier knows what's going on when generals and politicians do not...

Off on a tangent but There it is: Why free markets work and centrally-planned economies always fail. Those who think they are in "control" cannot possibly have enough information to make the proper decisions, even if their motives are honest.

Oh, and back on topic, my answer is "Midway" (not having read the rest of the thread).

[jdege]

The US finished the war with only three of its pre-war carriers, Saratoga, Ranger, and Enterprise.

Ranger was a small, rather unsuccessful design, that stayed in the Atlantic doing anti-submarine work.

Saratoga was an early battlecruiser conversion, that was fast and carried a lot of planes, but turned out to be so slow-turning as to be vulnerable. It spent most of 1942 in the repair yards.

The Enterprise was, well, the Enterprise.

The others, Lexington, Yorktown, Hornet, and Wasp, were all lost in 1942.

The first of the Essex class carriers (the Essex, of course), entered operational service in May, 1943.

By the end of the war, we had seventeen of them. With eight Independence class light carriers (cruiser conversions that, while no means as capable as the fleet carriers, were actually fast enough to keep up with the fleets, which the escort carriers were not), and seventy three escort carriers.

With thirteen escort carriers, two light carriers, nine more Essex class carriers, and the three Midway class carriers under construction.

[snopercod]

American industrial might... Those were the days...

Now all America has to fall back on are lawyers, MBAs and other assorted symbol manipulators.

[Trajan88]

When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.

Trajan88; TAMU Class of '88

[blam]

"The first of the Essex class carriers (the Essex, of course), entered operational service in May, 1943."

During the early 60's I served aboard a WW2 diesel sub (USS Jallao, SS-368) we often did ASW exercizes with the Essex in the Atlantic.

[xp38]

I never said it was a win for Britain. You are correct it was a stalemate or at best a hold for Britain. If however Britain had fallen it would have released large numbers of men and material for Germany and perhaps changed the outcome in Russia. The Battle of the Atlantic and North Africa may not have even happened. The US would have faced a very different situation if Britain and Russia had gone down to defeat.

[oyez]

This be one.

[u-89]

You ask two seperate questions. In Europe Germany was in real trouble when Hitler could not get Britain to sue for peace in 1940. Since he was not to be swayed from his schedualed attack on the USSR this failure was fatal. Italy got into trouble in Greece. Yugoslovia got rid of a friendly leader who was replaced by unrealiable government and Britain was aiding Greece. Hitler had to secure his underbelly (not to mention N. Afrika where Italy was in trouble with Britain). The Balkin campaign robbed two spring months from the Russian timetable not to mention loss of men and material plus occupation forces. When Hitler finally went into Russia his Army was understrength for the task and the timing was late in the season. Army Group North was short on Amror units to begin with and had to further spend part to Army Group Center just when they were most needed.

The Normandy Invasion which we make so much of was overrated in it's importance to the final outcome. 80 % of German forces were in Russia and the battles were on a scale that we can't comprehend. How much in the west is made of the Soviet summer offensive of 1944? Army Group Center got wiped out! A loss that dwarfs the beating they took in France. Hitler struck West in Dec. 44 because he felt the effort would be swallowed in the East without effect. I do not mean to imply that 1944 was the turning point. Hitler lost for certain when he failed to knock out Russia in 42. Our leadership probably understood this at the time but to the public there was no end in sight yet.

As someone else said above our stopping the Japanese at Guadalcanal and the Midway naval victory was the turning point in the Pacific Island campaign but it shoudl not be forgotten the large forces the Japanese had in China. That was their equivalent to Russia for the Germans.

[Justa]

Both Burkeman1's post and my response concern the battle of Stalingrad. Oddly enough, that is also the subject of the Roosevelt letter I posted. ??

If you see a connection with Pearl Harbor I congratulate you. ; )

[Big Horn]

When they bombed Pearl Harbor and we became more involved.

[Sam Cree]

Looks like they kept all the planes on deck.

[Burkeman1]

The "battle of Britain" did nothing to the German luftwaffe and was nothing to their war effort. It was a piece of British propaganda designed for their population and taken up by our media. The amount of German Aircraft shot down during that battle did nothing to effect the war.

[Eternal_Bear]

The Germans lost so many ships during the Norwegian Campaign that any real hope of invading the UK in 1940 went out the window.

Operation Zitadelle marked the turn of the tide on the Eastern front in July of 1943. The Soviets took the strategic initiative away from the Germans for good and began their Summer Offensive in August. Even through 60 Axis divisions were destroyed in the Stalingrad period, Feldmarschall von Manstein was able to stabilize the Front and resestablish a temporary advantage thanks to the intervention of a Waffen SS Panzerkorps at the battle of Kharkhov.