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Peggy Noonen: "Them" [one group for whom liberals have no tolerance at all]
Wall Street Journal ^ | Nov 15, 2002 | Peggy Noonen

Posted on 11/15/2002 1:46:24 AM PST by The Raven

Edited on 04/23/2004 12:05:02 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

There's a lot to think about this week--the rise of Nancy Pelosi, the meaning of the Republican triumph--but my thoughts keep tugging toward a group of people who are abused, ostracized and facing a cold winter. It's not right what we do to them, and we should pay attention.


(Excerpt) Read more at opinionjournal.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; US: New York
KEYWORDS: liberals; michaeldobbs; pufflist; smoking; smokinggoonette
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1 posted on 11/15/2002 1:46:24 AM PST by The Raven
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To: The Raven
bump
2 posted on 11/15/2002 1:57:39 AM PST by JZoback
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To: The Raven
Actually, smokers should not be allowed to smoke in the office. And yes, my dainty organs are offended by the smell, especially when I'm sober and not in a club/bar.

I also detest coming home with smoke on my clothes, especially if I have not lit up at all.

I don't agree with the anti-smoking Nazis, but smokers really do waste a lot of time on their smoke breaks, and there's a reason that they were moved outside. By the way, they look like heroin junkies in a shooting gallery when they stand outside huddled together in front of office buildings.
3 posted on 11/15/2002 2:01:18 AM PST by Skywalk
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To: Skywalk
I think you missed her point!!!!
4 posted on 11/15/2002 2:04:57 AM PST by The Raven
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To: Skywalk
Are you fat?
5 posted on 11/15/2002 2:06:19 AM PST by per loin
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To: per loin; All
Hold on folks. We may have a winner. It just may be that Skywalk is perfect in every way. We could name the award "Mac Davis Trophy."
6 posted on 11/15/2002 2:34:00 AM PST by billhilly
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To: The Raven
Thank you Peggy Noonen!








7 posted on 11/15/2002 2:40:47 AM PST by yoe
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To: Skywalk
Typical false accusation about smokers wasting time on their many smoking breaks! Most of the smokers I know (myself included) take mini breaks to smoke vs the block breaks everyone else takes.

The 15 minutes in the morning and 15 minutes in the afternoon turns out to be three 5 minute breaks in each half of the day. If lunch is 60 minutes...some smokers will take 30 minutes and add a few extra smoke breaks throughout the day.

Either way...I'll challenge anyone to prove smokers are less productive than non-smokers. And, furthermore...I challenge the liberal lie that smokers cause such a tremendous impact/burden on the health care system because they choose to engage in a practice that is still legal!

8 posted on 11/15/2002 2:42:19 AM PST by borisbob69
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To: per loin
5-10, 180 lbs, in relatively decent shape.
9 posted on 11/15/2002 2:48:13 AM PST by Skywalk
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To: The Raven
Did I?

What I was saying in my post is that there IS a place for smoking and smokers, but why when I'm trying to work should I have to deal with smoke in a closed space. Don't let the reasonable arguments you have in favor of smoker's rights turn your mind against EVERY criticism of smoking.

I was responding to parts of her article, especially the ones regarding the smokers huddled outside office buildings. If they should be allowed back inside, where should they be smoking? I certainly don't want to spend all day in a closed space surrounded by smoke. And if they make a smoker's lounge, isn't that making SPECIAL concessions to them?

My dad smoked, and I begged him when I was a child to stop. Know what he finally started to do? He'd go out on the enclosed porch and open a window or sit on the steps. I literally start choking up when someone is smoking and there's obvious strain in my voice. I don't like it unless my sense of smell is articially suppressed(ie drunk) and then its a matter of toleration.
10 posted on 11/15/2002 2:54:58 AM PST by Skywalk
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To: borisbob69
Less productive as a whole? perhaps not. But in my rather varied experience in a number of workplace environments, many smokers took more than their allotted breaks to go have a smoke. Then again, I actually put effort into my work, however trivial, and not everyone(non-smokers included) does that, so perhaps I'm noticing a trend that stretches beyond the smoke/non-smoke debate.
11 posted on 11/15/2002 2:57:16 AM PST by Skywalk
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To: Skywalk
And if they make a smoker's lounge, isn't that making SPECIAL concessions to them?

I think it's more of a concession to the rest of of us.

12 posted on 11/15/2002 3:02:05 AM PST by Restorer
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To: Skywalk
Get a life! God... we have people in the office who do bad impressions for half of the work-day away from their cube and nobody says a thing.

The other half of the day they spend in the kitchen drinking coffee.

But when a smoker goes out to take a couple drags, he/she is frowned upon as a slacker.

13 posted on 11/15/2002 3:10:33 AM PST by johnny7
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To: Skywalk
And if they make a smoker's lounge, isn't that making SPECIAL concessions to them?

Perhaps a better word would be accomodation...after all we are addicts according to some on this forum.

14 posted on 11/15/2002 3:13:35 AM PST by borisbob69
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To: Skywalk
Oh give me a break here. Isn't it making "Special Consideration" to non-smokers to force those that do smoke into the outdoors, regardless of the weather, to engage in a legal activity? Her point was simple, allowing smoking in offices in a room designated for smoking and well ventilated solves the problems.

As for smokers wasting time, have you considered the very fact that smokers are forces to leave their desks, go outside their buildings to a outside "designated" smoking area is a biggest waste of time? Every smoker I work with takes a shorter lunch to make up for smoke breaks, and most of them work long hours to make up for the time they are forced outside.

I'm sorry you begged your father to smoke and he took it upon himself to leave his own home to appease your tender nostrils. That he listened to you was up to him, that does not give you the right to dictate the behavior of others in society. If you don't want to smell smoke while dining or drinking, go to restaurants/bars where the owners have designated the business as smoke free. The owners should have the right to cater to the clientèle they choose. Not the clientèle liberal whiners dictate are "politically correct" at this point and time.
15 posted on 11/15/2002 3:14:12 AM PST by Brytani
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To: The Raven
Their sense of life is essentially conservative: They know it is short

yeah and how will sucking smoke make it any longer ??


BUMP

16 posted on 11/15/2002 3:18:22 AM PST by tm22721
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To: tm22721
Your question shows you don't have a clue!!!
17 posted on 11/15/2002 3:20:28 AM PST by borisbob69
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To: Brytani
Excuse me

1)My father was right to make that concession. Why the hell should the furniture STINK to high heaven of cig smoke? I spent the night at my friend's house after a New Year's Eve celebration and the stench was everywhere(everyone but my friend smoked in that place) It made me sick, that's how oppressive the smell was. My dad was, fortunately, not a chain smoker, but he did the right thing.

2)You guys are looking at my criticism of an article as if its a blessing to burn smokers alive. IF a room can be set aside with good ventilation, I have no problem with that. However, I will dispute an article if I wish. That doesn't make me one of the health Nazis, nor do I want to ban smoking in all public areas. I'm just talking about smoking as a habit, and if it were to be allowed back into offices WITHOUT any set-aside space.

3)You ever kissed a smoker? Even with mints, it's still on the lips. Not tight. If you think it is, you're nuts. BUt if I say that it's nasty to kiss a smoker, does that make me an anti-smoking Nazi? Sheesh!

The reason I brought up a room being a "special concession" is because I noticed that some of you would be against accomodations for some other group, but when one of the "protected minority classes" of conservatives is involved it's all about compromise and accomodation.

Smoking is legal, that's true. So is sex, I'd like to engage in it at work. If others don't like the sounds, sights and smells coming from my cubicle than they can go stuff themselves!

Point being that there are limitations on certain activities in the work place. Unless of course you guys want me to blast my perfectly legal Scarface CD in the office.
18 posted on 11/15/2002 3:28:25 AM PST by Skywalk
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To: Skywalk
..."protected minority classes" of conservatives is...

No such thing...libs would never permit this to exist!

19 posted on 11/15/2002 3:33:11 AM PST by borisbob69
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To: Skywalk
They should have a special room they can go to with proper ventilatiion, and the anti-smokers can keep their cabooses out of it. It is NOT right or FAIR that they be treated worse than condemed killers.

BTW I don't smoke, nor drink through FREEDOM of CHOICE. But my husband does. We do NOT patronize establishment that do not have smoking sections. You don't like the smell of smoke in our home..then DON'T come over, that would be your FREEDOM of CHOICE.

20 posted on 11/15/2002 3:34:04 AM PST by GailA
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To: borisbob69
One might make the claim that forcing the smoker outside is what causes lost productivity; when smokers were allowed to smoke at their desks they could smoke and work at the same time.

I'm not a smoker. I can't stand the smell of the stuff, but I also believe in individual rights and I see the government's crusade against smoking as a test case for protecting those rights.

I do like drinking -- a lot -- and I can already see the writing on the wall for alcohol use. I'll stand by my smoking brethren in an effort to protect my rights to tipple.

21 posted on 11/15/2002 3:35:27 AM PST by Junior
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To: GailA
Like I said, I have no problem with a ventilated room set aside for smokers. This WOULD help cut down in the time it takes to go down to the front of the building for the larger office buildings. My point was that I would NOT welcome smoking back into the office environment without that restriction.

As for my friends house, it was late, people(except 1) were drunk and that was my only option. It's merely a comment on how disgusting it can be.

Everyone was so sure that I was for banning smoking from all American life just because I criticized Noonan's article and smoking itself. I just think people jumped the gun, because sometimes on FR we're too willing to want to paint people as "us" or "them." Im allowed to differ a bit without being attacked(not saying you did GailA)
22 posted on 11/15/2002 3:40:22 AM PST by Skywalk
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To: Junior
Thanks Junior...I don't drink but I'm against any punitive treatment for those who do. Did you hear this morning that someplace is proposing an additional 10% tax on alcohol? Didn't catch the whole piece on FOX news Channel...but it looks like you and BIG FAT are the next targets!
23 posted on 11/15/2002 3:40:59 AM PST by borisbob69
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To: The Raven
Or maybe banning smokers makes them feel safe, like they'll never die.

Once again, Peggy nails it. Something I notice about godless people is an utter terror of old age and death. Recall, indeed, that baby boomers in youth never had any respect for age. They frankly despised it. Look at Hugh Hefner, 75 going on 25. So they shudder at anything that reminds them of mortality. Death has become what they won't talk about in front of children (Remember that great scene in Terms of Endearment where Debra Winger's character is disgusted with the New York sophisticates who freely discuss their affairs and abortions over lunch but are shocked into silence when she mentions her cancer ?).

To be a Christian is to understand that there is an eternal and death is nothing to live in terror of.

Earlier this week, I saw an obit in the NYT that mentioned a woman's lifelong heavy smoking in the first sentence. Because of it her life was cut short by emphysema at the tender age of 84.

24 posted on 11/15/2002 3:44:24 AM PST by Tokhtamish
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To: Tokhtamish
Great post...I remember once hearing a comedy bit about smoking cutting 10 years off your lifespan.

The thing that struck me as funny was the ending question: "Yeah, but have you stopped to consider which 10 years that is?"

25 posted on 11/15/2002 3:51:39 AM PST by borisbob69
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To: Junior
My boss claims he smells alcohol on me once a month.

I never drink at work or before. I shower daily but the topic keeps coming up.

I think it's a co-worker who starts this kind of crap.

I've been told that a small hole was in my shirt and somebody complained... when other people were wearing cut-off pants to work. JMHO.

Take care... trust no one at work.

26 posted on 11/15/2002 4:02:09 AM PST by johnny7
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To: The Raven

Three cheers for the brilliance of Peggy Noonen . . .

Pall Mall . . . Pall Mall . . . Pall Mall !!!


27 posted on 11/15/2002 4:02:26 AM PST by GeekDejure
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To: Skywalk
5-10, 180 lbs, in relatively decent shape.

Physically, perhaps. Where you need work is the mental side.

28 posted on 11/15/2002 4:02:33 AM PST by laredo44
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To: Skywalk
I certainly don't want to spend all day in a closed space surrounded by smoke

Then don't. Hopefully, you're not going to assert that some secret police march you to such a space and force you to remain there, are you?

29 posted on 11/15/2002 4:05:57 AM PST by laredo44
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To: laredo44
And why is that? Because I don't think smokers are some victimized ethnic group? That I think that they should have set aside areas where they smoke?

Is it because I think their habit is disgusting and makes it difficult for me to breathe comfortably?

What is it exactly that I have to work on, sir?
30 posted on 11/15/2002 4:06:40 AM PST by Skywalk
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To: laredo44
I know my posts have been lengthy, so I won't get on you for not reading them fully, but I made it clear that I was criticizing the idea of smokers being allowed back in the office environment WITHOUT set-aside, ventilated rooms.

Please don't attempt to portray me as someone so dumb that I would walk into the smoker's break room just to complain.
31 posted on 11/15/2002 4:09:22 AM PST by Skywalk
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To: Skywalk
My dad smoked, and I begged him when I was a child to stop. Know what he finally started to do? He'd go out on the enclosed porch and open a window or sit on the steps.

It appears to me your dad was ten times the man you are.

32 posted on 11/15/2002 4:13:59 AM PST by laredo44
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To: laredo44
What, he's a saint because he finally stopped subjecting his family to smoke? I'm glad he did, but he waited far too long. If a 5 year old child looks into your eyes and tells you to stop smoking around him, why not listen? It's not like the smoking Nazis had gotten to me. I was honestly bothered by it.

He stopped coughing and clearing his sinuses to the point of annoyance when he cut back too. But I guess this makes him an even greater man?

I fail to see, though, how the act of smoking makes one a better man than I. Once again, because it's a disgusting habit and stinks up everything in the vicinity, that makes me a Nazi? I'm stating the facts.
33 posted on 11/15/2002 4:17:58 AM PST by Skywalk
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To: The Raven
They accept death and illness as part of the equation...which also includes my picking up part of the tab for their health care costs one way or another. But maybe that isn't true anymore, wasn't that what the big tobacco settlement was all about, yeah, that's it.
34 posted on 11/15/2002 4:19:21 AM PST by RWG
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To: tm22721; Skywalk
Shooom! [*Moving hand over head*]

tm & Skywalk both receive an 'F' for reading comprehension.
35 posted on 11/15/2002 4:23:18 AM PST by Grit
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To: *puff_list
Good Morning, puffies!
36 posted on 11/15/2002 4:29:08 AM PST by Grit
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To: Grit
Not at all. I took umbrage with some of her assertions. I definitely think it's a stretch to say that smokers are somehow "conservative" thinkers, or that this is the essence of their "deal." What a ridiculous idea that addicts are somehow the quintessential conservatives.

Any other substance that we'd be saying this about? "OH yes, alcoholics are by nature conservative in their outlook. Yes, junkies make that trade because they enjoy their heroin and know they won't live forever. Crankheads, yeah they know their teeth are going to fall out, but that's the conservative view of life that they have"

NO, I'm not saying smoking is as bad as crank or heroin abuse, just drawing the analogy.

It can go to other things as well --- the morbidly obese, promiscuous people who LOVE sex and know they won't live forever, etc etc.

I took issue with SOME of the article, I understand and agree that we shouldn't treat smokers like they're Hitler, but beyond that I don't have to kowtow to her just because her name is Noonan and we on FR are not Health Nazis.
37 posted on 11/15/2002 4:33:09 AM PST by Skywalk
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To: The Raven
the last public place you can go to be a dropout, a nonconformist, refusenik, a time waster, a bohemian, a hider from reality, a bum, a rebel, a bore, a heathen. The last public place in which you can really wallow in your own and others' human messiness. The last place where you can still take part in that great American tradition, leaving the teeming marching soldiers of capitalism outside to go inside, quit the race

She is speaking of the Senate, right?

38 posted on 11/15/2002 4:44:59 AM PST by RJCogburn
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To: RJCogburn
LMAO!!!
39 posted on 11/15/2002 4:49:47 AM PST by borisbob69
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To: Skywalk
and we on FR are not Health Nazis

Yet.

Illuminate me. How does your position on smoking differ from that of a "Health Nazi"?

40 posted on 11/15/2002 4:53:17 AM PST by laredo44
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To: Skywalk
I don't agree with the anti-smoking Nazis,

This statement seems refuted by the rest of your statements. What about the anti-smoking Nazi's ideas do you not agree with?

but smokers really do waste a lot of time on their smoke breaks,

Proof? Define 'waste'.

and there's a reason that they were moved outside.

So they could waste time? Be less productive? By the way, they look like heroin junkies in a shooting gallery when they stand outside huddled together in front of office buildings. ...NO, I'm not saying smoking is as bad as crank or heroin abuse, just drawing the analogy.

But you did say just that, twice. The analogy stinks more than the smoking.

41 posted on 11/15/2002 4:56:03 AM PST by Grit
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To: RWG
They accept death and illness as part of the equation...which also includes my picking up part of the tab for their health care costs one way or another.

So, is your beef with smokers, or those compelling you to pick up the health costs?

42 posted on 11/15/2002 4:56:10 AM PST by laredo44
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To: The Raven
As Steve Martin used to say:

1st person: "Do you mind if I smoke?"

2nd person: "No, do you mind if I fart?"

43 posted on 11/15/2002 4:58:41 AM PST by texson66
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To: laredo44
My patience is wearing thin but OK.

1)While I do find smoking to be a disgusting habit that stinks up clothes, lips, breath, furniture, etc I AM AGAINST special taxes on cigarettes

2)I am against laws that interfere with owners of bars/clubs/restaurants/etc from deciding what their policy will be regarding smoking or drinking or whatever on their property

3)I do not wish to see smoking banned anywhere at any time

4)I DO think that in closed spaces, such as offices, where people have to work and produce for hours on end, that there should be SET-ASIDE rooms with proper ventilation for smokers OR they should go outside(smaller buildings won't have space for smoke rooms)

5)I did not like seeing one of my coworkers smoking while pregnant, but you know what? Not my problem.

Does this suffice? I wasn't aware that to NOT be a Health Nazi that one had to LOVE smoking as a habit.
44 posted on 11/15/2002 4:58:48 AM PST by Skywalk
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To: Grit
Yes, for years I looked at the huddled masses in front and between office buildings and thought of the needle parks of the Netherlands.

And I stand by my analogy, BECAUSE an addiction to smoking burning leaves hardly qualifies one as essentially conservative. No more than overeaters are conservative because they are killing themselves with food. Please, let's not let our hate of the Health Nazis and do-gooders cloud our common sense.

You may smoke, and that's fine. Just realize that I can at times be unhappy with being around you without wanting to scold you or ban your behavior.
45 posted on 11/15/2002 5:02:13 AM PST by Skywalk
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To: Skywalk
That's better. :o)

Does this suffice? I wasn't aware that to NOT be a Health Nazi that one had to LOVE smoking as a habit.

That's ok. A lot of people don't realize that at first. But without the likes of Joe Camel and the Marlboro man anymore its been hard luring in new addicts. I assume that you will start smoking now.

46 posted on 11/15/2002 5:07:07 AM PST by Grit
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To: Skywalk
And if they make a smoker's lounge, isn't that making SPECIAL concessions to them?
Seems to me I recall companies building whole day care centers for the children of working parents.
If you want to talk about "SPECIAL concessions"... how about those men's and women's restrooms! Whatsupwitdat?
What is wrong with just one big one for everyone? /sarcasm
47 posted on 11/15/2002 5:08:02 AM PST by philman_36
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To: Skywalk
What is it exactly that I have to work on, sir?

Primarily, an understanding of liberty. Most jobs are at privately owned establishments. Since you are not compelled to work there, the owner, not you, gets to set the rules. You posted some silliness about how you have no objection to a well ventilated room for smokers, as if you get to set the rules.

Liberty generally requires that you act to extract yourself from that which you find unappealing rather than demand that others cease action.

48 posted on 11/15/2002 5:08:21 AM PST by laredo44
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To: Grit
Huh? *distracted by attempt to light tar-stick*

In the interests of full disclosure, I've "smoke socially" before and enjoyed a few cigars. In limited doses, I understand why people smoke, though it does still stink up the joint(and one's clothes) :)
49 posted on 11/15/2002 5:09:32 AM PST by Skywalk
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To: laredo44
LOL

So what if the buildings are privately owned? Many of the first restrictions on smoking came from private companies. The reason was because people were bothered by the smoke.

You're right, that I'd have to go somewhere to smoke, but in a FREE SOCIETY people are also allowed to request their employers set up a tolerable work environment.

Yeah, I guess if the boss wanted to hose me down with Kool Aid, I'd better just shut up or leave. But I become anti-liberty if I DARE ASK the man to call off the Kool-Aid Man.
50 posted on 11/15/2002 5:13:39 AM PST by Skywalk
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