SMALLPOX AND FORCED VACCINATION: WHAT EVERY AMERICAN NEEDS TO KNOW

National Vaccine Information Center ^ | Winter 2002 | Barbara Loe Fisher, Editor

[FormerLurker]

BTW, I WAS mistaken in that areas with natural fluoride in the water had the same problems as those with artifical fluoride. See, you learn something new everyday. It takes LOTS of time to wade through the enourmous amount of material on this subject. So again, as far as I've seen, natural fluoride in the water does NOT have the same effect as artificial fluoride....

[TomB]

Great. Now that we are talking apples, I'll continue.

You said:

It depends on whether or not the chemical is SOLUBLE. There is also a characteristic known as SOLUBILITY. A soluble compound will DISSOLVE in a SOLVENT such as water, but only until the solvent reaches SATURATION for that soluble compound.

A you can see, calcium fluoride is MUCH less soluable than sodium fluoride. And that is EXACTLY where the problem lies.

Absolutely. BUT, when we measure the concentration of fluoride in someone's water, we are measuring the amount of FLUORIDE IONS in that water. Which means that the ion has already "dissolved" in the water. Whether that means that there had to be a whole lot of CaF in the water, or less of the NaF, doesn't matter. Solubility will give you the amount of compound you need to get a specific ion level, but it doesn't affect the ion itself.

Once again, you and I go out and measure some water supplies. We go to one house that has a well with a natural fluoride level of 1ppm. And then we go to another house that has a supplemented fluoride supply and measure it at the same 1ppm. The fact that the one has fluoride ions from CaF and the other from NaF is irrelevant, they are the same thing. And the only time solubility comes into play is in determining the amount of fluoride containing compounds to put into the water to get that level.

You keep saying:

The NUMBER of free ions is DRASTICALLY less when the solute is calcium fluoride as opposed to sodium fluoride.

But when you are measuring the fluoride levels in a water supply, you are SPECIFICALLY counting free fluoride ions.

there would be no such thing as salt water, it would simply be a sea of free ions. We know that isn't the case.

Ummm, what happens to salt when it DISSOLVES in water then?

[TomB]

So again, as far as I've seen, natural fluoride in the water does NOT have the same effect as artificial fluoride....

This is my whole point. Fluorine is an ELEMENT, and fluoride is its ion. There can be no difference between one ion and another. The terms "natural" and "aritficial" fluoride is nonsense.

[madfly]

There is a standard ppm (parts per million) intake amount for Fluoride. How can we possibly know how much we are ingesting, when it's in soup, pop, beer, juices, etc. There's no way to know how much one consumes on a daily basis and no labeling requirements for fluoride on food products. Then there's the amount you get from bathing.

[aruanan]

This is my whole point. Fluorine is an ELEMENT, and fluoride is its ion. There can be no difference between one ion and another. The terms "natural" and "aritficial" fluoride is nonsense.

The problem is very simple, very commonplace, and one that leads to all sorts of errors--he, like most people, is deficient in his understanding of chemistry. That's easily remedied. Something not so easily remedied is a belief that one's earnestness or fervency of belief somehow compensates for being wrong in matters of fact. Such a person is almost beyond hope because of his inability to distinguish any common objective standard outside of himself that can be appealed to from his hopes, wishes, and dreams. It's sort of like a Mafalda cartoon in which Miguelito was shown that his thumb held out in front of him alongside a distant cathedral appeared to be taller than the cathedral. Mafalda asked him why this was so. He said, "Because it's my thumb and it's very important to me."

[FormerLurker]

Absolutely. BUT, when we measure the concentration of fluoride in someone's water, we are measuring the amount of FLUORIDE IONS in that water.

(Incidently, I did mean FLUORIDE ION in our past discussions, NOT fluorine).

Ok, you appear to have a valid point. That is the common argument in this matter. When the testing is done from a water supply, yes, the number of flouride ions are measured, and yield a certain value. BUT....

The argument falls apart when you consider the solubility of the compounds, sodium fluoride and calcium fluoride. It is when that water is BOILED that the difference between the two come into play. Water that has been treated with sodium fluoride has both Na+ and F- ions dissolved, whereas water with naturally occuring calcium fluoride has Ca+ and F- ions. As the water evaporates, the concentration of fluoride increases. Without going into the calculations for solubility in relation to temperature, where solubility of fluorides increase in relation to an increase in temperature, let's take a look at what happens in each case...

In the sodium fluoride solution, as water boils, the concentration can reach 42,200 ppm, whereas in the solution of calcium fluoride, the MAXIMUM concentration is 16 ppm. SO, the availability of fluoride ions is virtually unlimited in the case of sodium fluoride solutions, where it is limited to concentrations of 16 ppm in calcium fluoride solutions. THAT is the difference.

Now of course, one wouldn't usually boil water for so long as to reach those extreme concentrations, but it IS theoretically possible.

SO, that doesn't explain anything yet, does it. Well, maybe it does...

It is in the body that we see a major problem. As over the course of a day, we consume fluoride from ALL of our food sources. Every bottle of soda, every item of food, every thing we ingest has fluoride. IF the ONLY source of fluoride was from calcium fluoride, the HIGHEST concentration we'd ever see in our bloodstream is 16 ppm. With sodium fluoride on the other hand, the concentration can theoretically go up to 42,200. Now THAT is not a good thing....

Fluoride: risks and benefits?

Fluoride—What's Wrong With This Picture?*

[FormerLurker]

Ummm, what happens to salt when it DISSOLVES in water then?

When the solution reaches SATURATION, the remaining NaCl simply forms a HETROGENEOUS MIXTURE. Just as in when food coloring is added to water, the food coloring might combine with the water and form a MIXTURE, but it does not form an ionic solution. When a solution of salt is saturated, any extra salt is simply held in aqueous suspension.

solution

[FormerLurker]

This is my whole point. Fluorine is an ELEMENT, and fluoride is its ion. There can be no difference between one ion and another. The terms "natural" and "aritficial" fluoride is nonsense.

Now you ARE being deceptive. The term fluoride is used to describe both the COMPOUNDS formed by FLUORIDE IONS, and ions of fluorine (also know as ionic fluoride, or simply fluoride). So sodium fluoride is not an ion, it is a compound. Sodium fluoride is an ARTIFICIAL compound, whereas calcium fluoride is NATURALLY occuring....

As far as FLUORINE IONS, well, that is a term used for ions of the fluorine isotope ¹⁸F, where the atom of fluorine contains 18 neutrons instead of 10. The ion would be represented as ¹⁸F-.

[FormerLurker]

Very eloquent dribble.

[Minnesota Lady]

I am a current lurker. You seem to protest too much. As I go through this entire thread, you are way too adamant to convince most people. We should know by now there is science, and junk science. I am leary of someone coming on so strong as you have been. Many of us have gone through the age of small pox vaccination... even used it against shingles. All of my children had them, I insisted. When I was in school - about 4-5th grade, I'd guess, we were all lined up in the gym and given these 'shots'. I knew no one who got sick from them. The policy was ended when the international medical groups felt smallpox was irradicated, as I understand it. We didn't have all the medical problems our children have now... eg. allergies, ADA, etc, etc. We didn't have all the chemicals in our carpets, cleaning supplies, clothing, smog, on and on. (My age didn't have tetracyclines when laying down their tooth enamel, either.) They did when my kids were younger, and all learned what that could do.
Anthrax vaccinations: My son was in the military and forced to have the anthrax vaccinations. He had 6 in the series, and his tour ended. He said that very few had more symptoms than sore arms. I was against his anthrax vacc. after reading that the vaccine they were given was left over from the VietNam war, way outdated, and the drug company that made it was in trouble back then for some sort of non-compliance with the normal standards. However, he was in Saudi for a while, with Patriot Missiles, and as Clinton lobbed cruise missiles into the aspirin factory, they were on high alert, and very vulnerable. Iraq's scuds could have contained this finely powdered anthrax, or other frightening things. At that point, I felt if it had half a chance to help, and nothing worse had happened in his experience with the vaccine, go for it.

[Minnesota Lady]

Guess my main point is.. age teaches you that there are individual differences in man and our experiences, all is not black or white, and the pendulum swings with what we learn as the years go by.

[FormerLurker]

You're entitled to your opinion.

[FormerLurker]

You shouldn't try to engage in a scientific discussion if your only argument is your "feelings", however.

[Minnesota Lady]

If all you got out of my postings was "feelings", you had better take stock of yourself. There is a philosophy there, you are too sure of yourself to see it, I guess. But, you will learn.

[FormerLurker]

Since you bring up the term, junk science is that which is thrown about by those who are depending upon the premise that most readers simply won't know enough to understand that which is being said. For those without the background to understand, ANY science can seem like "junk science". REAL junk science is that which is knowingly untrue and simply used to obscure facts that one with agenda wishes to discredit.

[Minnesota Lady]

Report card.. does not work well with others.

[FormerLurker]

And as I mentioned 10 or so postings ago, this entire diversion to fluoride was due to several posters who began asking me about the topic. I answered the questions, and have been defending myself since then in relation to those answers. It comes down to the concept, "if you don't want the answer, don't ask the question".

[FormerLurker]

Well Minnesota Lady, you needn't trouble yourself with following the thread if you find it boring..

[col kurz]

Recieved my small pox vaccination in 1952, made me an oversexed Republican..For some it did not take!!! LOL

[TomB]

In the sodium fluoride solution, as water boils, the concentration can reach 42,200 ppm, whereas in the solution of calcium fluoride, the MAXIMUM concentration is 16 ppm. SO, the availability of fluoride ions is virtually unlimited in the case of sodium fluoride solutions, where it is limited to conc

OK. Now that we have established that tap water with natural and adjusted fluoride are identical, how do you explain the lack of problems in comminities with naturally fluoridated water?

Next, you have the solubility problem wrong. If you have a substance like CaF that isn't very soluble in water, you need to have MORE of the compound in the water to give you a high steady state ion level. That is opposed to a substance that is easily soluble. In that case you don't need to add as much.

Without going into the calculations for solubility in relation to temperature.

I'm sorry, but you MUST give at least a link to these calculations.

So your boiled water example is backwards. Although I don't think it is valid anyway.