SMALLPOX AND FORCED VACCINATION: WHAT EVERY AMERICAN NEEDS TO KNOW

National Vaccine Information Center ^ | Winter 2002 | Barbara Loe Fisher, Editor

[FormerLurker]

OK. Now that we have established that tap water with natural and adjusted fluoride are identical, how do you explain the lack of problems in comminities with naturally fluoridated water?

Since a solution of calcium fluoride will be limited to a maximum solubility of 16 ppm, there will ONLY be 16 ppm of fluoride ions available in blood if the solute is calcium fluoride. With a maximum solubility of 42,200 ppm for sodium fluoride, the concentration of fluoride ions available could increase to 42,200 ppm, although a human would die well before that concentration was reached. And again, once the maximum solubility is reached, ie. the solution becomes saturated, any excess solute is simply held in aqueous suspension and is easily excreted.

So the problem with sodium fluoride is that there is virtually NO limit as to the number of fluoride ions available in the solution, where death will occur WELL before the solution reaches saturation.

Next, you have the solubility problem wrong. If you have a substance like CaF that isn't very soluble in water, you need to have MORE of the compound in the water to give you a high steady state ion level. That is opposed to a substance that is easily soluble. In that case you don't need to add as much.

It is the IONS that pose a problem, not so much the compound itself. If there are n number of ions available, as you say, a fluoride ion is a fluoride ion. Until maximum solubility is reached, ALL sodium fluoride molecules (formula units) are dissolved in the solution. So yes, there IS more calcium fluoride compound present in a solution with the same ion level as sodium fluoride, as it stops dissolving at a MUCH lower concentration.

As the fluoride ions remain bound to the calcium however, they are NOT available and pose no risk.

I'm sorry, but you MUST give at least a link to these calculations.

SOLUBILITY AS A FUNCTION OF TEMPERATURE

In a endothermic reaction such as the disassociation of sodium fluoride, energy is absorbed by the system.

The rule for solutions in relation to temperature is, if the solution process absorbs energy then the solubility will be INCREASED as the temperature is increased. If the solution process releases energy then the solubility will DECREASE with increasing temperature.

Some common salts are shown in the graph below;

I can't seem to find a chart depicting the solubility in relation to temperature for the various fluorides, but I'll see what I can find if you're interested..

So your boiled water example is backwards. Although I don't think it is valid anyway.

Nope, I didn't have it backwards, and it IS valid.

[FormerLurker]

Now that we have established that tap water with natural and adjusted fluoride are identical

And BTW Tom, we have NOT established that, we have established just the opposite. The tap water IS different obviously, as the tap water from a fluoridated water system is a solution of sodium fluoride, whereas the tap water from a naturally occuring source is a solution of calcium fluoride.

Nice try.

[FormerLurker]

One more thing Tom. The equations provided in the link I gave you are only valid up to a point. The final equations are for non-electrolytes, but there is an interim equation that should be valid. I'll provide it below..

[FormerLurker]

Let me restate something, as I should have qualified the following statement;

So yes, there IS more calcium fluoride compound present in a solution with the same ion level as sodium fluoride, as it stops dissolving at a MUCH lower concentration.

I should have said,

After the solution exceeds a concentration of 16 ppm, there IS more calcium fluoride compound present in a solution with the same ion level as one containing sodium fluoride, as calcium fluoride stops dissolving at that concentration, whereas sodium fluoride does not.

Now that is more accurate.

[FormerLurker]

If all you got out of my postings was "feelings", you had better take stock of yourself. There is a philosophy there, you are too sure of yourself to see it, I guess. But, you will learn.

I apologize if I snapped at you last night, it was late, and I may have understood what you were trying to say. Basically, all I'm trying to do is lay the facts down on the table. As the thread evolved, many different issues came into play. So I addressed those issues as they came up.

[FormerLurker]

understood=misunderstood

[FormerLurker]

In relation to the smallpox vaccine, what I'm saying is that we SHOULD seriously look into the fact that in addition to its known adverse reactions, there are some serious questions as to whether or not it even works. That IS something that hopefully will be looked into, as there ARE some scientists that say vaccines in general DON'T work, such as the inventors of the Polio vaccine, Drs. Salk and Sabin.

[asformeandformyhouse]

If smallpox vaccines are made available to the general public, I will not stand in line for one. I will shove my way to the front of the line!

And I'll follow you around for a few weeks and if you're still alive I'll think about getting one.

[TomB]

For those of you still around and keeping score, we can now see that FL has backtracked from:

Fluoride is a toxin, so ANY amount is too much. Those areas that DO have naturally occuring fluoride in their water supply DO also have children with statistically significant lower IQ and develop skeletal fluorsis.

To, well, calcium fluoride is, admittedly present in most water supplies, but it is OK because.....

While sodium silicofluoride is added to water supplies and that is bad.

Once again you try to throw a bunch of crap against the wall and hope at least some of it sticks. But your theory is based on a flawed premise, so all that comes after it is wrong. You say:

Since a solution of calcium fluoride will be limited to a maximum solubility of 16 ppm, there will ONLY be 16 ppm of fluoride ions available in blood if the solute is calcium fluoride. With a maximum solubility of 42,200 ppm for sodium fluoride, the concentration of fluoride ions available could increase to 42,200 ppm,

That, once again, clouds the issue that the level (ppm) is ALREADY ESTABLISHED in the water itself. The solubility information is great if you are trying to determine how much compound you want to add to a water supply to get the proper flouride level, but since we are dealing with supplies that the fluoride is already present and measured, your information is useless.

In addition, could you explain how you can get water with a fluoride concentration of 1 ppm and have it increase to 42,000 ppm? That makes no sense.

[TomB]

For those of you still around and keeping score, we can now see that FL has backtracked from:

Fluoride is a toxin, so ANY amount is too much. Those areas that DO have naturally occuring fluoride in their water supply DO also have children with statistically significant lower IQ and develop skeletal fluorsis.

To, well, calcium fluoride is, admittedly present in most water supplies, but it is OK because.....

While sodium silicofluoride is added to water supplies and that is bad.

Once again you try to throw a bunch of crap against the wall and hope at least some of it sticks. But your theory is based on a flawed premise, so all that comes after it is wrong. You say:

Since a solution of calcium fluoride will be limited to a maximum solubility of 16 ppm, there will ONLY be 16 ppm of fluoride ions available in blood if the solute is calcium fluoride. With a maximum solubility of 42,200 ppm for sodium fluoride, the concentration of fluoride ions available could increase to 42,200 ppm,

That, once again, clouds the issue that the level (ppm) is ALREADY ESTABLISHED in the water itself. The solubility information is great if you are trying to determine how much compound you want to add to a water supply to get the proper flouride level, but since we are dealing with supplies that the fluoride is already present and measured, your information is useless.

In addition, could you explain how you can get water with a fluoride concentration of 1 ppm and have it increase to 42,000 ppm? That makes no sense.

[TomB]

For those of you still around and keeping score, we can now see that FL has backtracked from:

Fluoride is a toxin, so ANY amount is too much. Those areas that DO have naturally occuring fluoride in their water supply DO also have children with statistically significant lower IQ and develop skeletal fluorsis.

To, well, calcium fluoride is, admittedly present in most water supplies, but it is OK because.....

While sodium silicofluoride is added to water supplies and that is bad.

Once again you try to throw a bunch of crap against the wall and hope at least some of it sticks. But your theory is based on a flawed premise, so all that comes after it is wrong. You say:

Since a solution of calcium fluoride will be limited to a maximum solubility of 16 ppm, there will ONLY be 16 ppm of fluoride ions available in blood if the solute is calcium fluoride. With a maximum solubility of 42,200 ppm for sodium fluoride, the concentration of fluoride ions available could increase to 42,200 ppm,

That, once again, clouds the issue that the level (ppm) is ALREADY ESTABLISHED in the water itself. The solubility information is great if you are trying to determine how much compound you want to add to a water supply to get the proper flouride level, but since we are dealing with supplies that the fluoride is already present and measured, your information is useless.

In addition, could you explain how you can get water with a fluoride concentration of 1 ppm and have it increase to 42,000 ppm? That makes no sense.

[FormerLurker]

Er, should I answer your questions 3 times, or just once?

[TomB]

I'd settle for just once, but it's been over a half an hour. How long does it take for you to think of something to write?

Or is it that the guy who tells you what to say isn't answering his e-mail?

[FormerLurker]

For those of you still around and keeping score, we can now see that FL has backtracked from:
Fluoride is a toxin, so ANY amount is too much.

Well Tom, you do know how to play word games, I'll give you that much. Fluoride IS a toxin, and should be avoided if possible. Is that better? I certainly wouldn't want to ingest any more than what can NOT be avoided. So any more of a fluoride than that which can be AVOIDED IS too much, as health effects of low level exposure are unknown in SOME cases. Now that should be accurate, correct? You see though, low level exposure to fluoride HAS been shown to be unhealthy, and that is reflected in the numerous studies that I have referenced and linked.

Those areas that DO have naturally occuring fluoride in their water supply DO also have children with statistically significant lower IQ and develop skeletal fluorsis.

As far as health effects, it HAS been shown that there are a significant number of cases of dental fluorosis in areas with high levels of naturally occuring fluoride in the water. It is also likely that there is a higher rate of skeletal flurosis in those areas too, as if there's enough fluoride in the water to mottle teeth and cause dental fluorosis, then there's probably enough to cause skeletal fluorosis as well. That is probably why the EPA has set a limit of 4 ppm for naturally occuring water supplies, because as we know, the concentration COULD go up to 16 ppm if left unchecked. That's why they are SUPPOSED to defluoridate those water supplies if the level of fluoride exceeds that level. As far as IQ, again, I haven't been able to find anything that correlates that with naturally occuring fluoride where there are high levels, but I thought I had read that somewhere at one time. So for now, I'll just say there is no KNOWN correlation between IQ and naturally occuring fluoride.

But wait, there's more. Although those water systems with "naturally occuring fluoride" DON'T fluoridate their water, they ARE subject to leeching from irrigation and ground water (which itself can have levels of up to 100 ppm of fluoride). They are also subject to air pollution and spillage from drains. As such, they sometimes have BOTH sodium fluoride AND calcium fluoride, and may have higher levels of fluoride than 4 ppm of BOTH compounds.

Fluoride Intake

To, well, calcium fluoride is, admittedly present in most water supplies, but it is OK because.....

Naturally occuring calcium fluoride is SAFER than sodium fluoride BECAUSE;

In solutions of calcium fluoride, the MAXIMUM concentration of fluoride ions is 16 ppm, whereas in solutions of sodium fluoride, the MAXIMUM concentration of fluoride ions is 42,200 ppm, roughly 1000 times more than the level that would cause immediate death in a average adult.

It is with the cumulative effect of ALL sources of fluorides that we ingest that in the case of sodium fluoride causes a problem, because it can and DOES reach levels higher than calcium fluoride would. As in the case of ground water referenced above, where it has been seen in levels up to 100 ppm, we know that is NOT calcium fluoride, as it can ONLY go up to 16 ppm fluoride ions.

While sodium silicofluoride is added to water supplies and that is bad.

And as per the chart in post 338, we see that in solutions of sodium fluosilicate, the concentrations of fluoride ions can reach 6,250 ppm. That's STILL obviously MUCH higher than the 16 ppm maximum solubility of 16 ppm for calcium fluoride.

Once again you try to throw a bunch of crap against the wall and hope at least some of it sticks. But your theory is based on a flawed premise, so all that comes after it is wrong.

It is obviously YOU that is flinging crap. And it is YOUR theory that is flawed.

You say:
Since a solution of calcium fluoride will be limited to a maximum solubility of 16 ppm, there will ONLY be 16 ppm of fluoride ions available in blood if the solute is calcium fluoride. With a maximum solubility of 42,200 ppm for sodium fluoride, the concentration of fluoride ions available could increase to 42,200 ppm,

Theoretically increase to that high of a level, yes.

That, once again, clouds the issue that the level (ppm) is ALREADY ESTABLISHED in the water itself. The solubility information is great if you are trying to determine how much compound you want to add to a water supply to get the proper flouride level, but since we are dealing with supplies that the fluoride is already present and measured, your information is useless.
In addition, could you explain how you can get water with a fluoride concentration of 1 ppm and have it increase to 42,000 ppm? That makes no sense.

You are forgetting (conveniently) the fact that people brush their teeth with fluoride toothpaste. The foods we eat contain fluoride, the juice, the soda, the beer, ANYTHING we consume consume effectively has fluoride. There is a CUMULATIVE effect, where toxic levels CAN be reached with artificial fluorides. With calcium fluoride, the MAXIMUM concentration is limited to 16 ppm.

From Total Daily Fluoride Intake

1977 "... Recent studies indicate that the total intake of fluoride is as high as 3 mg/day rather than the earlier figure of 1.5 mg/day, primarily because of increases in the estimated levels of fluoride in food. (1970) Balance data presented by Spencer also suggest a higher retention by bone, nearly 2 mg/day rather than the 0.2 mg/day indicated earlier. ... These findings are important . . . a retention of 2 mg/day would mean that an average individual would experience skeletal fluorosis after 40 yr, based on an accumulation of 10,000 ppm fluoride in bone ash." [phase 3 Crippling Skeletal Fluorosis] Drinking Water and Health, Safe Drinking Water Committee, National Academy of Sciences, NAS/NRC, 1977 p. 371-372

Fluorine Excretion and Balances in Adult Men -- intake @4-14 mg/day, absorption =94% -- 40% retained Trace Elements In Human and Animal Nutrition, U.S. Dept. of Agriculture (1987) p.378

1991 Estimated daily fluoride intake, adults in optimally fluoridated area: up to 6.6 mg/day .. in areas with 2 to 4 ppm fluoride in water: up to 7+ mg/day. Review of Fluoride Benefits and Risks, Department of Health and Human Services, February 1991 p17

As stated above, fluoride has a cululative effect, and builds up in both bones and tissues over time. There's more that just the forms of fluoride we've discussed. There's also (cryolite sodium aluminum fluoride), Na₃AlF₆, which is used as a pesticide in agriculture. It has HIGH concentrations in produce, and can have as much as 180 mg/kg in a head of lettuce...

Food and Beverage Sources of Fluoride Exposure

FLUORIDE IN FOOD

[FormerLurker]

I'd settle for just once, but it's been over a half an hour. How long does it take for you to think of something to write?

Well Tom, I don't sit by the computer all day just waiting for you to converse with. I DO have other things to do..

Or is it that the guy who tells you what to say isn't answering his e-mail?

Yeah, that's the ticket.

[FormerLurker]

Now I'm just making an assumption here, but don't you think fluorine can accululate in cells? In other words, the INSIDE of a cell is mostly water, so if that water can accumulate FLUORIDE, and if the level of fluoride is virtually unlimited, then don't you see how there might be a problem? If the level of fluoride in the cell could be limited to 16 ppm, then that wouldn't be so bad...

And of course, we aren't talking about fluoride bonding to calcium, we're simply talking about a solution of fluoride in a cell...

[TomB]

Those areas that DO have naturally occuring fluoride in their water supply DO also have children with statistically significant lower IQ and develop skeletal fluorsis.

Prove that statement.

[TomB]

In solutions of calcium fluoride, the MAXIMUM concentration of fluoride ions is 16 ppm, whereas in solutions of sodium fluoride, the MAXIMUM concentration of fluoride ions is 42,200 ppm, roughly 1000 times more than the level that would cause immediate death in a average adult.

And just where are these concentrations measured? Obviously not in the water supply, and obviously not in blood plasma levels. Where?

Well Tom, I don't sit by the computer all day just waiting for you to converse with. I DO have other things to do..

But you WERE there to make that smartassed statement, then you disappeared. You saw my question(s), responded, then were strangely silent for 2 1/2 hours.

You mean you couldn't answer me then?

[TomB]

Now I'm just making an assumption here, but don't you think fluorine can accululate in cells?

How would a negative ion get past the cell membrane?

[FormerLurker]

Prove that statement.

Er, I already responded to you on that on post 374. Let me make it bigger, as maybe you have problems with your eyesight..

As far as IQ, again, I haven't been able to find anything that correlates that with naturally occuring fluoride where there are high levels, but I thought I had read that somewhere at one time. So for now, I'll just say there is no KNOWN correlation between IQ and naturally occuring fluoride.