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Freedom of Religion (Islam Counts)
Vanity | 11/17/02 | Persuasion

Posted on 11/17/2002 12:46:37 AM PST by Persuasion

Lately I've been seeing a lot of anti-muslim posts on Free Republic. I think many of you who have posted ought to be ashamed and I think it ought to stop.

The total hatred and prejudice flowing out of you is overwhelming. You have reason to hate your attackers. You have reason to go to war with them. You have reason to seek justice. But you do not have any reason to act like biggoted Clymers toward people who have had nothing to do with those attacks. And there are many, many muslims in America that fit that billing. The president has recognized them. I support him whole-heartedly, as I do in the war effort. And those who are reasonable, do too.

What do you stand for? The people's rights or getting your own way?


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: islam; prejudice; religion; religionofpeace
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1 posted on 11/17/2002 12:46:37 AM PST by Persuasion
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To: Persuasion
If there was a religion out there that preached all the evil things that the Nazis preached, would you say that it would be religious bigotry to condemn those who follow such teachings? Would it be religious bigotry to call such a religion evil?
2 posted on 11/17/2002 12:54:54 AM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: Persuasion
You ask: What do you stand for?

I'm happy to tell you, I stand for the Judeo/Christian heritage of this country and Western Civilization in general. I will not stand for whining on behalf of Mohameddans who oppress their women, amputate the limbs of thieves and drug addicts, oppress all who disagree with them, found schools where the only lesson is to lay on the floor and memorize the Koran, mourn their "loss" of Spain hundreds of years ago, and kill Jews,Christians, Hindus and other "infidels" around the globe.

I used to be blissfully ignorant of Mohameddism, now I have it under strict survellience. When, and IF, I see something from that community that is truly peace loving and worthwhile, I'll reconsider my views. But for right now, Muslims are shunned by me. Sit in the corner, turn your face to the wall.

RADICAL ISLAM WILL BE CRUSHED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3 posted on 11/17/2002 1:02:29 AM PST by jocon307
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To: Persuasion
Good luck on keeping this vanity thread from degenerating into a forum for anger.

Very few men are wise enough to be able to govern their survival and territorial instincts in war. And war means winning is everything and every resource is needed and used.

Men especially use belittlement of the enemy as a tactic for keeping up their fighting edge adrenalin and throwing their enemies off-balance.

And I'm not sure it would be a good idea to breed for the kind of wisdom you are seeking, as such a race might well become extinct.

4 posted on 11/17/2002 1:03:00 AM PST by patriciaruth
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To: Persuasion
I do not hate Muslims, I hate their policy towards non-Muslims.

Commenting on the hate being directed towards non-muslims doesn't seem wrong to me. In fact, ignoring it would be ignoring our history.

It is not prejustice to point out that 60%+ of muslims still believe that it was the Jews that blew up the WTC.
5 posted on 11/17/2002 1:11:52 AM PST by dila813
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To: Persuasion
I'm still waiting for the "vast majority" of peaceloving Muslim leaders to condemn Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hizballah, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and all the other islamic terrorist groups. I'm still waiting for them to condemn all the arab countries and Iran that are run by dictators. Where are they? How come I can only find one muslim religious leader in Italy who has come out against all suicide murderers?
6 posted on 11/17/2002 1:15:31 AM PST by arielb
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To: patriciaruth
That's not wisdom, it's being willfully blind. The truth is right there, plain as day but she refuses to see it. It's so much easier to think happy thoughts than to face the cold hard facts.

Perhaps when maybe ore than a handful of Islamic leaders speak out AGAINST these attacks, and terrorism in general, I'll indeed rethink my position. The FACT however, is that they are NOT. They remain silent, and that silence speaks volumes.
7 posted on 11/17/2002 1:15:43 AM PST by Audit_Jesse
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To: Persuasion
You probably would have accused Kemal Ataturk of 'total hatred' of Islam when he forbade preaching Islam in Arabic in Turkey and suppressed Islamic fundamentalism in that country, including 'religious' teachings that oppose universal human rights.

Yet Turkey has been thusly cured of the Islamic malaise that afflicts most other Muslim majority countries.

There is nothing wrong with being harshly critical of 'religious' texts which promote genocidal tactics against peoples of other beliefs. In fact, it would be wrong to ignore the pernicious effects of this non religious influence on Islam.

8 posted on 11/17/2002 1:16:29 AM PST by Post Toasties
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To: Persuasion
Can't dispute that there are a lot of good people that follow Islam and for some the thought of taking up arms against unbelievers is abhorrent.

But within the tenants of Islam is embedded an ideology that that allows no compromise with or acceptance of other religious beliefs.

9 posted on 11/17/2002 1:18:30 AM PST by freedom9
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To: P-Marlowe
Not all ideas and religions are equal.

If shows like 60 Minutes had guts they would secretly record what is "preached" in the average Masque in America. And then play it nation wide for all to see. Now that would be something…

Just because someone calls what they do a religion doesn't mean we have to turn our brains off and ignore its teachings and not call it what it is.
10 posted on 11/17/2002 1:21:38 AM PST by DB
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To: Persuasion
What do you stand for? The people's rights or getting your own way?

What a meaningless question.

11 posted on 11/17/2002 1:23:47 AM PST by Post Toasties
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To: Persuasion
Btw, I believe that any part of Islam that promotes discrimination or prevents criticism of discrimination against non-Muslims is not religion but a form of hate speech or implicit approval of hate crimes.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

12 posted on 11/17/2002 1:26:55 AM PST by Post Toasties
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: Persuasion
The more I learn about Muslims, the less I like them...sorry to say. I support religious freedom. I believe people should be free to believe what they want to believe.

But I am not going to stand-by and ignore a group which advocates my slaughter. I will openly defy and renouce this. If more Muslims actively renouced this position, Americans would not be suffering this dilemma of religious tolerance.

The force of circumstances have given Muslims the obligation to show themselves as friend or foe. As a whole, they look like quislings.

14 posted on 11/17/2002 1:32:50 AM PST by GVnana
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To: Persuasion
Islam is NOT just merely a religion. It is a world domination POLITICAL movement.

Not every German was an armed combatant, but they were our enemy, for that time and that war.

A very substantial fraction of muslims in the world, want the militant jihad to succeed, rendering you and I dead.

You and I can debate the SIZE of the fraction, but not the fact that it exists.

So where we probably part, is with a basic premise that first considers all of them basically peaceful, or to consider all of them as potentially a sword enemy.

I believe the latter to be the SAFER course, given facts recently on the ground. "Know the Enemy" according to the ancient Chinese rules of war.
15 posted on 11/17/2002 1:35:09 AM PST by truth_seeker
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To: Persuasion
Hang in there. Unfortunately sometimes it appears that the most vocal here are the idiots. But rest assured that there are plenty of us who understand the difference between terrorist jackels who hide behind a religion and the peaceful adherents of that religion who don't support terrorists. We just get tired or don't respond to every spew of vile on all these threads.

Thanks for your support of Bush and the war on terrorism, and for stating it. Stating so helps to refute the simplistic myths that develop, even though each time you'll usually get viciously attacked by some ignorants and cranks. I have absolutely no doubt that if it were 100 years ago, some of the posters here would be active participants in lynchings of Blacks. Its that disgusting mob mentality thing.

However there are many others here who are good people, but were disturbed by the lack of visible expressed outrage by Muslim leaders. When seeing much accusations responded to with silence or indifference, they assume a defensive and skeptical view of Muslims. So whatever you can do to show your true beliefs and disavowing of the terrorists, and that you are not alone among Muslims, will go a long way to changing their views.

I am a Christian, but feel for you regarding what you have to go through right now. I wish you luck, and am sorry that this is a difficult period for both you and us.
16 posted on 11/17/2002 1:40:44 AM PST by Diddle E. Squat
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To: Persuasion
"The president has recognized them. I support him whole-heartedly, as I do in the war effort."

The President has also stated, "...you are with us, or you are with them." In the days since 9/11/01 Ive seen exactly ONE (1) editorial by a moslem cleric openly denouncing the atrocities of that day, and celebrating the freedoms practitioners of islam were able to enjoy on American soil. One.

If islam has made one positive contribution to American society it has been the work of minister farrakhan in his introduction of the term, "gutter religion," to our vernacular. I'll wager a guess he dreamed it up while performing his ritual ablutions in the piss-trough of the local mosque.

17 posted on 11/17/2002 1:40:51 AM PST by Joe 6-pack
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To: Persuasion
This threat just arrived (MSNBC)

On the heels of an FBI warning that al-Qaida may attempt a “spectacular” attack intended to kill many people and damage the U.S. economy, an Arab TV reporter known for his good contacts with Osama bin Laden’s terror organization said he had received a written statement from al-Qaida threatening more attacks in New York and Washington unless the United States stops supporting Israel and converts to Islam.

18 posted on 11/17/2002 1:43:38 AM PST by The Raven
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To: Joe 6-pack
When I hear an international chorus of Islamic voices publicly and consistently denouncing all fundamentalist violence perpetrated in the name of Islam and disassociating their beliefs from these tactics, that's when Islam will show signs of improving to the level of other religions.
19 posted on 11/17/2002 1:47:14 AM PST by Post Toasties
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To: The Raven
AFAIC, Muslims are morally obligated to express their outrage at messages such as these. Only members of a gutter religion wouldn't.
20 posted on 11/17/2002 1:48:46 AM PST by Post Toasties
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To: jocon307
I am not speaking of muslims who oppress their women, amputate the limbs of thieves and drug addicts, etc.
I am speaking of the many muslims alive today who
do not engage in these practices who are still
being treated as if they did.

Now you can sit there in ignorance and pretend that
every one of them is the same, but what good will it
do anyone? What has bigotry done for conservatives
in the past? It's given them a bad name and lost them
some votes. But rationality won the elections for them
this year. Let's stay rational.

Capslock isn't any more convincing than regular text.





21 posted on 11/17/2002 1:50:29 AM PST by Persuasion
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To: Joe 6-pack
I've seen too many clerics who condemned Sept 11 but "on the other hand" it's ok to kill Jews in Israel. Or it's not ok to kill Jews outside the green line but it's ok to kill Jews behind the green line.
22 posted on 11/17/2002 1:50:45 AM PST by arielb
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To: Post Toasties
You are not the only dumbass on this thread, but you are pretty representative. Can you not read? The poster stated that he supports Bush and the war on terrorism, and then you ignore it and demand statements of outrage.

Sheesh.
23 posted on 11/17/2002 1:52:59 AM PST by Diddle E. Squat
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To: arielb
I seem to remember American Muslims condeming the 9/11 attacks. And I know some personally who have done so.
24 posted on 11/17/2002 1:53:07 AM PST by Persuasion
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To: Persuasion
Two weeks ago, I met a Muslim survivor of the Bali bombing. He was at a table in the Sari club with his two brothers and a stranger when it blew. One of his brothers was killed outright. The second is still hovering between life and death with his lungs burned out. The man I was speaking to had fist-sized holes the size knocked out of his legs and torso, which were burned all over. The fourth man had carried him out.

He told us that he learned who the angels and devils were that night. The angels included the Hindu Balinese, Christian westerners and Muslims. Anyone who helped. And there were many. The devils did not need naming.

In the last year, we've seen Afghans, Turks and Yemenis fight, and die by our side and we've seen people like Johnny Walker Lindh sell us out. My own view is that handsome is, as handsome does. Anyone who sides with these terrorists and plots to kill innocents, be he Buddhist, Presbyterian, Muslim or Jain, deserves my hate. And he will get it.

Any man who fights them, be he an Afghan tribesman, a Pakistani policeman or an Iranian student, is my brother. I think that's what the Bali survivor was trying to say, and that is what I believe.
25 posted on 11/17/2002 1:55:16 AM PST by wretchard
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To: Post Toasties
Hey, preach against the text. That's fine.
But the outrageous posts here demanding
that all muslims be crushed and killed is
both anti-american and revolting.

Tell me. What does our declaration of independence say?
26 posted on 11/17/2002 1:55:56 AM PST by Persuasion
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To: freedom9
Can't dispute that there are a lot of good people that follow Islam and for some the thought of taking up arms against unbelievers is abhorrent. But within the tenants of Islam is embedded an ideology that that allows no compromise with or acceptance of other religious beliefs.

Hey, I agree with you completely. But I also find the demands for the elimination of all muslims abhorrent.

27 posted on 11/17/2002 1:57:40 AM PST by Persuasion
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To: Persuasion
what's with the "Call me 'Ishmael!'" in your profile? werido
28 posted on 11/17/2002 1:58:24 AM PST by MatthewViti
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To: Persuasion
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) -

"The world is just going mental as far as I'm concerned,"

I try and remind myself basically that there's more to life than the material world,"

"Basically I think the planet is doomed,"

"And it's my attempt to try to put a bit of a spin on the spiritual side, a reminder for myself and for anybody who's interested."

george harrison 11/30/2000

nov 19th 2002 the cd arrives, chilling isn't it?

29 posted on 11/17/2002 1:58:47 AM PST by TLBSHOW
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To: Persuasion
ask them what they think of terrorism in Israel or whether Saddam should remain in power
30 posted on 11/17/2002 1:59:43 AM PST by arielb
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To: Diddle E. Squat
I'm not assuming that 'Persuasion' is a Muslim, for one thing. Therefore, my statements re. Muslims should not be assumed to apply to her, now should they?

You're the one who made that dumbass mistake.

31 posted on 11/17/2002 2:00:43 AM PST by Post Toasties
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To: truth_seeker
Islam is NOT just merely a religion. It is a world domination POLITICAL movement.

Islam is not a religion. It is an expansionist social philosophy - something like Amway but with a more aggressive marketing strategy.

32 posted on 11/17/2002 2:01:01 AM PST by yianni
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To: Persuasion
November 17, 2002 -- Al Qaeda wants to hit New York and Washington again - unless the United States withdraws its support of Israel and Russia, according to a new document received by an Arab journalist. The reporter for the Arab television service Al-Jazeera, Yosri Fouda, said he received the unsigned, six-page document last week and considered it authentic. Fouda said the renewed threat arrived a day after his station first broadcast an audiotape that experts said had recently been recorded by Osama bin Laden. Speaking by telephone from London, Fouda said the new message called on Americans to...
new york post
33 posted on 11/17/2002 2:03:22 AM PST by TLBSHOW
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To: Persuasion
"Tell me. What does our declaration of independence say?"

This...

"...We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends."

Are you one of those who is still somehow in doubt that we are war?

34 posted on 11/17/2002 2:03:45 AM PST by Joe 6-pack
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To: Persuasion
I agree that anyone in favor of genocidal techniques should be shunned.

I would simply like to see the violent passages in Mosque copies of the Koran expurgated by US law, since they're not religious in nature, but insurrectionary.

35 posted on 11/17/2002 2:04:46 AM PST by Post Toasties
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To: Persuasion
If a religion preached cannibalism, should it be encouraged and protected?

If a religion promoted pedophilia, should it be protected and encouraged?

Is the concept of religious freedom an absolute?

I think not, our culture is Judeo-Christian, our civilisation is based on it. Even an atheist like me recognizes that simple fact. Islam promotes a number of behaviours which are antithetical to our civilization and it's evolution. There is nothing wrong with promoting it's destruction when the aim of the Islamists is to promote ours.

36 posted on 11/17/2002 2:04:59 AM PST by Cacique
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To: Joe 6-pack
SLAM
37 posted on 11/17/2002 2:07:15 AM PST by TLBSHOW
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To: Persuasion
Now you can sit there in ignorance and pretend that
every one of them is the same, but what good will it
do anyone?

Might save a life or two. It would be nice if we could divine who the good ones are as opposed to the 10-15% bad ones. But we can't.

Here's a happy thought from Middle East expert Daniel Pipes:

Islamists constitute a small but significant minority of Muslims, perhaps 10 to 15 per cent of the population. Many of them are peaceable in apearance, but they all must be considered potential killers.

How does 400,000 to 800,000 -- in our country -- potential killers sound?

Pipes article here...

Muslim population in America

Meet an Islamist -- peaceable in appearance, killer

America's Fifth Column ... watch Steve Emerson/PBS documentary JIHAD! In America
New Link: Download 8 Mb zip file here (60 minute video)

38 posted on 11/17/2002 2:08:02 AM PST by JCG
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: TLBSHOW
FBI Most Wanted Terrorist List
40 posted on 11/17/2002 2:11:52 AM PST by Bobby777
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To: yianni
"Islam is not a religion. It is an expansionist social philosophy - something like Amway but with a more aggressive marketing strategy."

Nailed it!

41 posted on 11/17/2002 2:13:14 AM PST by Spandau
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To: arielb
who is them? Ask them you said.
42 posted on 11/17/2002 2:18:02 AM PST by TLBSHOW
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To: Post Toasties
What a meaningless question.

Oh pardon me.

From Dictionary.com:

what

Which thing or which particular one of many Which kind, character, or designation One of how much value or significance

do

To perform or execute To fulfill the requirements of To carry out; commit

you

Used to refer to the one or ones being addressed

stand for

To represent; symbolize.
To advocate or support
To put up with; tolerate

the1

Used before singular or plural nouns and noun phrases that
denote particular, specified persons or things

peo·ple Humans considered as a group or in indefinite numbers
A body of persons living in the same country under one
national government; a nationality.

right

Something that is due to a person or governmental body by
law, tradition, or nature.

or1

Used to indicate an alternative, usually only before the
last term of a series

get

To come into possession or use of; receive

your

The possessive form of you.
Used as a modifier before a noun
A person's; one's

own
Of or belonging to oneself or itself

way
n. 8. An individual or personal manner of behaving,
acting, or doing

43 posted on 11/17/2002 2:18:35 AM PST by Persuasion
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To: Persuasion
I'm an atheist. I haven't heard of any Christians calling for my death because I don't have the same beliefs as them. But there are plenty of Muslims who want to kill anyone who doesn't follow their twisted religion.

To those of you who think we should be tolerant of Islam no matter what its philosophy is, do you think we have an obligation to appreciate and defend the views of the KKK? What if they start calling themselves a religion, would you support them then? So, how is Islam any different?

Of course, there are many Muslims who condemn terrorism and love this country. But: they sure as heck haven't been very vocal, and they are not considered "true" followers of Islam since they don't want to kill us for not being like them. That's what their book says.

I absolutely support religious freedom, but I draw the line when a "religion" calls for the death of anyone who doesn't follow it, and has essentially declared war against Western civilization.
44 posted on 11/17/2002 2:20:29 AM PST by mn12
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To: Persuasion
I think the question is invalid, because I don't believe the two are exclusive, in most cases.
45 posted on 11/17/2002 2:20:51 AM PST by Post Toasties
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To: MatthewViti
Herman Melville's Classic, "Moby Dick."
The word is "Weirdo."
These are things people used to be taught in high school.

46 posted on 11/17/2002 2:24:09 AM PST by Persuasion
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To: Persuasion
I wonder if you could tell us how many muslims believe in the First Amendment principle that government shall not establish any one religion and that all shall have the right to freely worship in their own religion?
47 posted on 11/17/2002 2:24:37 AM PST by AmericanVictory
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To: mn12
I see a lot of irony in those calling for unlimited 'tolerance' of an extremely intolerant, in the most malignant way, religion.

If they hope to positively influence said religion by handing out gold stars, they're doomed to great disappointment.

48 posted on 11/17/2002 2:25:18 AM PST by Post Toasties
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To: mn12
My post wasn't about unconditional acceptance of any religion. As I said. You've got a right to demand justice
and a right to hate your enemies. But calling for the
extermination of every muslim is intolerable to me.
And there's been quite a bit of it going on here.

And some HAVE been very vocal. They're just not the type
that attract the media.


49 posted on 11/17/2002 2:27:51 AM PST by Persuasion
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To: AmericanVictory
"Most Americans just want to be peaceful and raise their familes." -- A muslim professor of mine who is perfectly content to teach alongside christians.

I wonder if you could tell me how calling for the extermination of all muslims fits the billing. And
if it doesn't, why should they follow what you refuse
to? How is your kind any better than theirs?

50 posted on 11/17/2002 2:31:40 AM PST by Persuasion
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