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Germans call Churchill a war criminal (HOLD MEIN BIER...YET AGAIN)
The Daily Telegraph ^ | November 19, 2002 | Kate Connolly

Posted on 11/18/2002 5:07:02 PM PST by MadIvan

was effectively a war criminal who sanctioned the extermination of Germany's civilian population through indiscriminate bombing of towns and cities, an article in the country's biggest-circulation newspaper claimed yesterday.

You have some bloody nerve, Fritz. Perhaps we should ask the Jews what they think of you getting all huffy like this? - Ivan

In an unprecedented attack on Allied conduct during the Second World War, the tabloid Bild has called for recognition to be given to the suffering inflicted on the German population during the strategic air campaign of 1940-45.

The suffering of the population in London is far more relevant. After all, the citizens of London didn't vote in Hitler. Same goes for Jewish civilians in the occupied countries the Germans brutally slaughtered - Ivan

The newspaper's campaign, provoked by a new German history of the bomber offensive, breaks six decades of virtual silence on the subject, and is being seen as the latest manifestation of a belief among Germans that they too were victims of the war - albeit a war started by their country.

The newspaper is serialising Der Brand (The Fire: Germany Under Bombardment 1940-45) by the historian Jorg Friedrich, which claims to be the most authoritative account of the bombing campaign so far.

Mr Friedrich claims the British government set out at the start of the Second World War to destroy as many German cities and kill as many of their inhabitants as possible. Civilian deaths were not collateral damage, he says, but rather the object of the exercise. He argues that Churchill had favoured a strategy of attacking the civilian population centres from the air some 20 years before Hitler ordered such raids.

Britain's war leader is quoted during the First World War as saying: "Perhaps the next time round the way to do it will be to kill women, children and the civilian population."

Friedrich goes on to quote Churchill defending the morality of bombing: "Now everyone's at it. It's simply a question of fashion - similar to that of whether short or long dresses are in."

Der Brand is far removed from the dry style of most German histories, and is filled with emotive accounts of the horrors of bombing, but carries few references to the man who brought retribution on Germany, Adolf Hitler.

Friedrich argues that the Allied policy of seeking to break German morale through bombing proved mistaken, the attacks merely serving to weld together the German population.

The debate is certain to anger those in Britain who see the strategic air campaign as a necessary evil.

The British, led by Sir Arthur Harris, C-in-C Bomber Command, were the leading proponents of "night area bombing", involving the systematic destruction of German industrial capacity and housing. The policy resulted in the laying to waste of city after city, including Hamburg, Cologne and Dresden, and the deaths of some 635,000 Germans.

The policy was to some extent forced on the RAF by the failure of daylight operations against pinpoint targets early in the war. It also reflected the fact that, for much of the conflict, bombing was the only method by which Britain could attack Germany.

German raids on Britain in the Blitz of 1940-41 were seen to have freed the British from the obligation not to attack civilian centres.

The serialisation of the book will furnish the far-Right in Germany with arguments to back its revisionist claims. It is also likely to overshadow recent reconciliation attempts between Britain and Germany over the bombing of Dresden in February 1945 in which tens of thousands died.

In a symbolic sign of friendship, British businesses have paid into a fund to reconstruct the Frauenkirche or Church of Our Lady which was destroyed in the raid and is set to be reopened in 2006.

Yesterday Antony Beevor, the British historian and author of the bestselling Berlin: The Downfall, 1945, criticised the German claim that Britain's war of attrition was unnecessarily brutal. "The trouble is this argument is removed from the context that they were the ones who invented terror bombing," he said, referring to German attacks on Coventry, Rotterdam and Warsaw.

"They literally obliterated whole cities and that certainly preceded what the British did," he said. "What we did was more terrifying and appalling, but it was a natural progression in this war.

"One can certainly debate the whole morality of bombing, but for Germans to say Churchill was a war criminal is pushing it a bit," he said.

Friedrich, 58, said his two years of research prompted him to change his views radically on the Allied bombing.

"Previously it appeared to me to be a just answer to the crimes of the Third Reich, but I've since changed my mind," he said. "Until the Second World War there was a common consensus that the massacre of civilian populations was illegal."

For the past year Germans on both the Left and Right have been locked in a new and intense debate about the war and their role as its victims as well as perpetrators. The debate was sparked by Gunther Grass, the Nobel prize winner, in a novel fictionalising the wartime account of a passenger ship torpedoed by the Soviet navy killing thousands of Germans on board.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Germany; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: barfalert; churchill; germany; hitlerwasbadbut; uk; winston
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I am so angry I can barely write. Fritz: you put Hitler into power, who unleashed more hell and misery than can be described. My family livedf through the hell of the Blitz; I've been to Auschwitz and seen what you monsters did. If there had been true justice we would have beaten you to death as a nation, smashed you into a million pieces and never let you get up again. And now you complain about Winston? Shut up.

Ivan


1 posted on 11/18/2002 5:07:02 PM PST by MadIvan
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To: TopQuark; TexKat; Iowa Granny; vbmoneyspender; America's Resolve; BigWaveBetty; widgysoft; ...
Bump!
2 posted on 11/18/2002 5:07:21 PM PST by MadIvan
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To: MadIvan
Bump for Winston, for dealing with what the world wanted to believe wasn't there.
3 posted on 11/18/2002 5:10:05 PM PST by July 4th
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To: MadIvan
I am speechless. My uncle went to Auschwitz and said that it still smells like smoke there. Once the all of the WWII generation has passed, I really fear what is going to happen over there.
4 posted on 11/18/2002 5:12:02 PM PST by Aggie Mama
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To: MadIvan
I am angry at this as well. Winston Churchill is arguably the greatest man of the 20th Century. The Germans were treated exceedingly well after the war by the Allies despite the atrocities they committed and not only did we rebuild that country but have built them into one of the world's largest economies. And this is the thanks we get?
5 posted on 11/18/2002 5:12:40 PM PST by SamAdams76
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To: MadIvan
Of course these Nazis had no problem with Hitler trying to kill every citizen living in London. The Nazis started the bombing of innocent civilians when they invaded Poland and when they helped their Fascist buddies in Spain.
6 posted on 11/18/2002 5:12:55 PM PST by Grampa Dave
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To: MadIvan
Is this the very definition of "cheek", or does this qualify as "unmitigated gall"?
7 posted on 11/18/2002 5:14:22 PM PST by wimpycat
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To: MadIvan
was effectively a war criminal who sanctioned the extermination of Germany's civilian population through indiscriminate bombing of towns and cities, an article in the country's biggest-circulation newspaper claimed yesterday.

What about the London bombing by the Germans? The Germans are the enemy, again ! Did anyone hear the Islamist claim that not signing Kyoto is one of the reasons why they are terrorizing us ? No doubt the EU is behind the Islamist Fanatics. I'm glad Bush spurned a meeting with Schoeder at the NATO meeting.
8 posted on 11/18/2002 5:14:36 PM PST by John Lenin
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To: MadIvan
The Germans, as with the Japanese, have the Soviets to thank for their existance today. Without the need for strong allies to counter the new threat, there would have been no need for anything other than a heavily-taxed slave state for these two.
9 posted on 11/18/2002 5:14:39 PM PST by Citizen of the Savage Nation
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To: MadIvan
I thought I'd seen it all...now I really have. To have Germans criticize anyone elses wartime conduct ......outrage doesn't describe it. Even a cruel bastard like Stalin had at least 1 good idea: Turn defeated Germany into 20 starving mini-states, never to stink up the world again.
10 posted on 11/18/2002 5:14:45 PM PST by Will_Zurmacht
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To: MadIvan
When Japanese complain about our two atomic bombs and forget about their attrocities, my simple reply is "When I see and hear trash like you, it is too bad we didn't 50 or 100 atomic bombs to use.

The same answer should be used with these new Nazi revisionists. It is obvious that we didn't do our job, because Nazis like you are still alive.
11 posted on 11/18/2002 5:15:59 PM PST by Grampa Dave
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To: MadIvan
Give him hell Ivan. Anyone living today, that is less than 57 years old, does not know about Hitler really. The socialist liberal media has made hitler a saint in the good old USA.
12 posted on 11/18/2002 5:17:36 PM PST by chainsaw
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To: wimpycat
Is this the very definition of "cheek", or does this qualify as "unmitigated gall"?

It's worse, it's a total outrage. My grandfather told me that the "Hun is either at your feet or at your throat". Well economically they're at our feet - I have no sympathy for their plight, in fact I hope we can put the boot in, HARD.

Regards, Ivan

13 posted on 11/18/2002 5:17:43 PM PST by MadIvan
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To: Aggie Mama
My relatives were at Auschwitz......in the ovens.

Anyone think that we ought to pull our military bases from Germany ought to think again.

14 posted on 11/18/2002 5:19:52 PM PST by OldFriend
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To: MadIvan
Maybe we should have left Germany to the good graces of Herr Stalin.
15 posted on 11/18/2002 5:20:39 PM PST by Mike Darancette
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To: MadIvan
Selective amnesia by idiots.

>Mr Friedrich claims the British government set out at the start of the Second World War to destroy as many German cities and kill as many of their inhabitants as possible.

Excuse me!? The British Government didn't set out to do anything but oppose German agression, which started the war.

>Civilian deaths were not collateral damage, he says, but rather the object of the exercise.

There's no doubt that the British night-time area bombardment was meant to kill and disrupt civilian population centers. This was total war against a society fully mobilized for production of armaments and support for military operations.

Tough. You started it, Deutschers, and did much worse yourselves. Suck it up.
16 posted on 11/18/2002 5:20:59 PM PST by FreedomPoster
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To: All

"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill, June 1940

Regards, Ivan
17 posted on 11/18/2002 5:21:01 PM PST by MadIvan
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To: MadIvan
I guess it's time to cue up my Tom Lehrer on the phono again ("Once your rockets go up who cares where they come down? That's not mein department, says Werner von Braun").
18 posted on 11/18/2002 5:21:37 PM PST by RossA
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To: SamAdams76
Exactly.

One need only consider the perils and hardships many German refugees underwent to get to the American and British Sectors immediately after the war.

longjack

19 posted on 11/18/2002 5:22:08 PM PST by longjack
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To: MadIvan
SHEESH.....what is in THAT beer in Germany? I'm glad my relatives escaped in the late 1800's......
20 posted on 11/18/2002 5:23:22 PM PST by goodnesswins
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