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Germans call Churchill a war criminal (HOLD MEIN BIER...YET AGAIN)
The Daily Telegraph ^ | November 19, 2002 | Kate Connolly

Posted on 11/18/2002 5:07:02 PM PST by MadIvan

was effectively a war criminal who sanctioned the extermination of Germany's civilian population through indiscriminate bombing of towns and cities, an article in the country's biggest-circulation newspaper claimed yesterday.

You have some bloody nerve, Fritz. Perhaps we should ask the Jews what they think of you getting all huffy like this? - Ivan

In an unprecedented attack on Allied conduct during the Second World War, the tabloid Bild has called for recognition to be given to the suffering inflicted on the German population during the strategic air campaign of 1940-45.

The suffering of the population in London is far more relevant. After all, the citizens of London didn't vote in Hitler. Same goes for Jewish civilians in the occupied countries the Germans brutally slaughtered - Ivan

The newspaper's campaign, provoked by a new German history of the bomber offensive, breaks six decades of virtual silence on the subject, and is being seen as the latest manifestation of a belief among Germans that they too were victims of the war - albeit a war started by their country.

The newspaper is serialising Der Brand (The Fire: Germany Under Bombardment 1940-45) by the historian Jorg Friedrich, which claims to be the most authoritative account of the bombing campaign so far.

Mr Friedrich claims the British government set out at the start of the Second World War to destroy as many German cities and kill as many of their inhabitants as possible. Civilian deaths were not collateral damage, he says, but rather the object of the exercise. He argues that Churchill had favoured a strategy of attacking the civilian population centres from the air some 20 years before Hitler ordered such raids.

Britain's war leader is quoted during the First World War as saying: "Perhaps the next time round the way to do it will be to kill women, children and the civilian population."

Friedrich goes on to quote Churchill defending the morality of bombing: "Now everyone's at it. It's simply a question of fashion - similar to that of whether short or long dresses are in."

Der Brand is far removed from the dry style of most German histories, and is filled with emotive accounts of the horrors of bombing, but carries few references to the man who brought retribution on Germany, Adolf Hitler.

Friedrich argues that the Allied policy of seeking to break German morale through bombing proved mistaken, the attacks merely serving to weld together the German population.

The debate is certain to anger those in Britain who see the strategic air campaign as a necessary evil.

The British, led by Sir Arthur Harris, C-in-C Bomber Command, were the leading proponents of "night area bombing", involving the systematic destruction of German industrial capacity and housing. The policy resulted in the laying to waste of city after city, including Hamburg, Cologne and Dresden, and the deaths of some 635,000 Germans.

The policy was to some extent forced on the RAF by the failure of daylight operations against pinpoint targets early in the war. It also reflected the fact that, for much of the conflict, bombing was the only method by which Britain could attack Germany.

German raids on Britain in the Blitz of 1940-41 were seen to have freed the British from the obligation not to attack civilian centres.

The serialisation of the book will furnish the far-Right in Germany with arguments to back its revisionist claims. It is also likely to overshadow recent reconciliation attempts between Britain and Germany over the bombing of Dresden in February 1945 in which tens of thousands died.

In a symbolic sign of friendship, British businesses have paid into a fund to reconstruct the Frauenkirche or Church of Our Lady which was destroyed in the raid and is set to be reopened in 2006.

Yesterday Antony Beevor, the British historian and author of the bestselling Berlin: The Downfall, 1945, criticised the German claim that Britain's war of attrition was unnecessarily brutal. "The trouble is this argument is removed from the context that they were the ones who invented terror bombing," he said, referring to German attacks on Coventry, Rotterdam and Warsaw.

"They literally obliterated whole cities and that certainly preceded what the British did," he said. "What we did was more terrifying and appalling, but it was a natural progression in this war.

"One can certainly debate the whole morality of bombing, but for Germans to say Churchill was a war criminal is pushing it a bit," he said.

Friedrich, 58, said his two years of research prompted him to change his views radically on the Allied bombing.

"Previously it appeared to me to be a just answer to the crimes of the Third Reich, but I've since changed my mind," he said. "Until the Second World War there was a common consensus that the massacre of civilian populations was illegal."

For the past year Germans on both the Left and Right have been locked in a new and intense debate about the war and their role as its victims as well as perpetrators. The debate was sparked by Gunther Grass, the Nobel prize winner, in a novel fictionalising the wartime account of a passenger ship torpedoed by the Soviet navy killing thousands of Germans on board.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Germany; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: barfalert; churchill; germany; hitlerwasbadbut; uk; winston
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I am so angry I can barely write. Fritz: you put Hitler into power, who unleashed more hell and misery than can be described. My family livedf through the hell of the Blitz; I've been to Auschwitz and seen what you monsters did. If there had been true justice we would have beaten you to death as a nation, smashed you into a million pieces and never let you get up again. And now you complain about Winston? Shut up.

Ivan


1 posted on 11/18/2002 5:07:02 PM PST by MadIvan
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To: TopQuark; TexKat; Iowa Granny; vbmoneyspender; America's Resolve; BigWaveBetty; widgysoft; ...
Bump!
2 posted on 11/18/2002 5:07:21 PM PST by MadIvan
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To: MadIvan
Bump for Winston, for dealing with what the world wanted to believe wasn't there.
3 posted on 11/18/2002 5:10:05 PM PST by July 4th
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To: MadIvan
I am speechless. My uncle went to Auschwitz and said that it still smells like smoke there. Once the all of the WWII generation has passed, I really fear what is going to happen over there.
4 posted on 11/18/2002 5:12:02 PM PST by Aggie Mama
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To: MadIvan
I am angry at this as well. Winston Churchill is arguably the greatest man of the 20th Century. The Germans were treated exceedingly well after the war by the Allies despite the atrocities they committed and not only did we rebuild that country but have built them into one of the world's largest economies. And this is the thanks we get?
5 posted on 11/18/2002 5:12:40 PM PST by SamAdams76
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To: MadIvan
Of course these Nazis had no problem with Hitler trying to kill every citizen living in London. The Nazis started the bombing of innocent civilians when they invaded Poland and when they helped their Fascist buddies in Spain.
6 posted on 11/18/2002 5:12:55 PM PST by Grampa Dave
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To: MadIvan
Is this the very definition of "cheek", or does this qualify as "unmitigated gall"?
7 posted on 11/18/2002 5:14:22 PM PST by wimpycat
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To: MadIvan
was effectively a war criminal who sanctioned the extermination of Germany's civilian population through indiscriminate bombing of towns and cities, an article in the country's biggest-circulation newspaper claimed yesterday.

What about the London bombing by the Germans? The Germans are the enemy, again ! Did anyone hear the Islamist claim that not signing Kyoto is one of the reasons why they are terrorizing us ? No doubt the EU is behind the Islamist Fanatics. I'm glad Bush spurned a meeting with Schoeder at the NATO meeting.
8 posted on 11/18/2002 5:14:36 PM PST by John Lenin
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To: MadIvan
The Germans, as with the Japanese, have the Soviets to thank for their existance today. Without the need for strong allies to counter the new threat, there would have been no need for anything other than a heavily-taxed slave state for these two.
9 posted on 11/18/2002 5:14:39 PM PST by Citizen of the Savage Nation
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To: MadIvan
I thought I'd seen it all...now I really have. To have Germans criticize anyone elses wartime conduct ......outrage doesn't describe it. Even a cruel bastard like Stalin had at least 1 good idea: Turn defeated Germany into 20 starving mini-states, never to stink up the world again.
10 posted on 11/18/2002 5:14:45 PM PST by Will_Zurmacht
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To: MadIvan
When Japanese complain about our two atomic bombs and forget about their attrocities, my simple reply is "When I see and hear trash like you, it is too bad we didn't 50 or 100 atomic bombs to use.

The same answer should be used with these new Nazi revisionists. It is obvious that we didn't do our job, because Nazis like you are still alive.
11 posted on 11/18/2002 5:15:59 PM PST by Grampa Dave
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To: MadIvan
Give him hell Ivan. Anyone living today, that is less than 57 years old, does not know about Hitler really. The socialist liberal media has made hitler a saint in the good old USA.
12 posted on 11/18/2002 5:17:36 PM PST by chainsaw
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To: wimpycat
Is this the very definition of "cheek", or does this qualify as "unmitigated gall"?

It's worse, it's a total outrage. My grandfather told me that the "Hun is either at your feet or at your throat". Well economically they're at our feet - I have no sympathy for their plight, in fact I hope we can put the boot in, HARD.

Regards, Ivan

13 posted on 11/18/2002 5:17:43 PM PST by MadIvan
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To: Aggie Mama
My relatives were at Auschwitz......in the ovens.

Anyone think that we ought to pull our military bases from Germany ought to think again.

14 posted on 11/18/2002 5:19:52 PM PST by OldFriend
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To: MadIvan
Maybe we should have left Germany to the good graces of Herr Stalin.
15 posted on 11/18/2002 5:20:39 PM PST by Mike Darancette
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To: MadIvan
Selective amnesia by idiots.

>Mr Friedrich claims the British government set out at the start of the Second World War to destroy as many German cities and kill as many of their inhabitants as possible.

Excuse me!? The British Government didn't set out to do anything but oppose German agression, which started the war.

>Civilian deaths were not collateral damage, he says, but rather the object of the exercise.

There's no doubt that the British night-time area bombardment was meant to kill and disrupt civilian population centers. This was total war against a society fully mobilized for production of armaments and support for military operations.

Tough. You started it, Deutschers, and did much worse yourselves. Suck it up.
16 posted on 11/18/2002 5:20:59 PM PST by FreedomPoster
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To: All

"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill, June 1940

Regards, Ivan
17 posted on 11/18/2002 5:21:01 PM PST by MadIvan
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To: MadIvan
I guess it's time to cue up my Tom Lehrer on the phono again ("Once your rockets go up who cares where they come down? That's not mein department, says Werner von Braun").
18 posted on 11/18/2002 5:21:37 PM PST by RossA
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To: SamAdams76
Exactly.

One need only consider the perils and hardships many German refugees underwent to get to the American and British Sectors immediately after the war.

longjack

19 posted on 11/18/2002 5:22:08 PM PST by longjack
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To: MadIvan
SHEESH.....what is in THAT beer in Germany? I'm glad my relatives escaped in the late 1800's......
20 posted on 11/18/2002 5:23:22 PM PST by goodnesswins
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To: MadIvan
Up is Down bump.
21 posted on 11/18/2002 5:24:51 PM PST by Guillermo
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To: MadIvan
While I was a bit young to understand the impact of the assassination of JFK and only have the vaguest recollection of the funeral a few days later I do have vivid memories of reading a headline just a little over a year later in one of the local newpapers here in Toronto. The huge headline read Man of the Century Dies. True then and true today and always will be.
22 posted on 11/18/2002 5:25:21 PM PST by xp38
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To: MadIvan
The British, led by Sir Arthur Harris, C-in-C Bomber Command, were the leading proponents of "night area bombing", involving the systematic destruction of German industrial capacity and housing. The policy resulted in the laying to waste of city after city, including Hamburg, Cologne and Dresden, and the deaths of some 635,000 Germans.

Excuse my hard heartedness but so what? Should they have been left in peace to build even more German tanks and bombers and all the rest to kill those on our side? They started it. We just ended it. And while civilians in a dictatorship maybe given the benefit of the doubt as to which side they are on the citizens of a nominal democracy are given no such leeway.

Nor should they be. They chose this monster to be their leader. They followed him into battle. Choices have consequences. And I have never believed that they didn’t know what was going on in the camps.

>

a.cricket

23 posted on 11/18/2002 5:26:23 PM PST by another cricket
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: MadIvan
Some words from a Tom Lehrer song, "Dr. Werner von Braun," come to mind:

"Some have harsh words for this man of renown,
But I think our attitude should be one of gratitude,
Like the widows and cripples in old Londontown.
Who owe their large pensions to Werner von Braun...."

Congressman Billybob

Click for "Let's Hear It for Fraud -- And REAL Soon"

Click for "to Restore Trust in America"

25 posted on 11/18/2002 5:28:44 PM PST by Congressman Billybob
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To: MadIvan
It looks like the old hitler propaganda machine is rising from it's ashes in the kraut land. Could this be the sign of the 2nd coming of the genocidal german chancellor? Something evil is awakening in germany, and I think W knows it, that's why he is avoiding der herr schroeder.
26 posted on 11/18/2002 5:29:05 PM PST by desertcry
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To: MadIvan
This goes way past revisionist history. It is Nazi revivalism.

Either that or the author is in cloud-cuckoo-land, certifiably bonkers.

27 posted on 11/18/2002 5:30:07 PM PST by LibKill
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To: MadIvan
Let 'em have it Ivan! That's about the most offensive thing I've ever seen. We're probably gonna have to slap them down again in a few decades.
28 posted on 11/18/2002 5:30:26 PM PST by 6ppc
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To: wimpycat
Is this the very definition of "cheek",

No, but it emanates from between a set of cheeks found at a midpoint between the head and the feet.

29 posted on 11/18/2002 5:31:15 PM PST by Gumlegs
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To: MadIvan
Bump for Churchill.

Would that we had more like him in our dark times today.

30 posted on 11/18/2002 5:31:49 PM PST by MWS
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To: chainsaw
The socialist liberal media has made hitler a saint in the good old USA.

Can't say that I agree with this. I think the socialist liberal media keeps trying to make him into an honorary Republican :)

31 posted on 11/18/2002 5:33:43 PM PST by ffrancone
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To: MadIvan
Well like some general said
It's OK if we bomb them in their factories making munitions during the day what's wrong with doing it at night in their homes

The idea of INNOCENT CIVILIANS always seemed like a contradiction to me

I remember in WWII how everyone was getting behind the war effort and proudly claiming they were helping so I guess it was OK to shoot a soldier but not the guy building the guns
32 posted on 11/18/2002 5:37:10 PM PST by uncbob
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To: Grampa Dave
When Japanese complain about our two atomic bombs and forget about their attrocities, my simple reply is "When I see and hear trash like you, it is too bad we didn't 50 or 100 atomic bombs to use.

Some Japanese admit the bombs were the best thing to happen to them at that time. It ended the war The fanatics would have had the Japanese fighting to the bitter end with a lot more casualties.
In addition Russia was about to come in and would have gotten the northern Japanese Islands as a reward
33 posted on 11/18/2002 5:40:28 PM PST by uncbob
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To: MadIvan
The nerve... What's got into ole Fritz lately? They are the loose cannon of Europe right now. They are pissing off everybody.
34 posted on 11/18/2002 5:41:04 PM PST by Prodigal Son
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To: ffrancone
Can't say that I agree with this. I think the socialist liberal media keeps trying to make him into an honorary Republican :)

Ain't it ironic how the libs like to paint GOP as Nazis when they are the ones espousing the Nazi philosophy
35 posted on 11/18/2002 5:44:51 PM PST by uncbob
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To: OldFriend
Anyone think that we ought to pull our military bases from Germany ought to think again.

I'm sorry for that terrible loss, which was repeated over and over and over. Noone who has not known up close the two surviving member of large extended families (70+), the rest of whom went into the ovens, can really get a grasp on the magnitude of the horror of what the Germans did.

My company hires programmers out of Germany. I was speaking with one of my programmers (29 years old, thereabouts) a couple of years ago. He told me quite proudly that Germany had changed. That Germany had not gone to war in 50 years and that war was impossible now. I took a deep breath and told him that Germany had been an occupied country for forty of those fifty years and still had powerful foreign troops on its soil. He swallowed, paled, and told me he had never considered that and that I was right.

I am starting to reassess my company's relationship with Germany. I deal with fine people, friends, there. But the atmosphere has changed a lot. The vicious anti-americanism is so thick you can cut it with a spoon. The business environment is getting more difficult as a result. With their economy tanking, the conditions could soon get ripe for some very disturbing political changes there.

Like you, I have never regarded the American troops there as a 'favor' we do Germany. It is a favor we do for the rest of the world.

36 posted on 11/18/2002 5:44:57 PM PST by ffrancone
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To: wimpycat
Well and truly beyond cheeky. Brazen liberal socialist absurdity is the phrase that leaps to mind. Kinda like when John Lovett(sp?) was asked if he felt he'd offended
the Germans after doing a parody of Hitler - he quipped
'oh, yeah, I may have lost some support among my Nazi followers.' out of sarcastic witt. But this bovine excriment is what is produced when people start handwringing and searching for a way not to look so bad
in "relative" terms. Relativism and reason are the tools
used amongst the inadequate to pretend they matter and aren't actually 'so bad' afterall. It's used by countless bad groups to construct a level of pretense in rewriting history to make themselves look less culpable for their own doing. Which is why it's oft not a good idea to let liberals write history books - else we should believe that free love and pot brought down the iron curtain. Then again there are pretentious types in our own midst who cling to a group that has spent the better part of it's modern days playing Conservatism and trying to convince people it isn't so bad either. The point being we have to be on watch against absurd brazen-ness wheresoever it rears it's head.

When such things happen by the hand or by verbalization such that offense is given to sense, one should remind
those perpetuating the nonsense to flatulate out of range
of the public nose or simply not eat the beens of bull to begin with. There is a lesson here. And it is that freedom of speach allows idiots to furnish their own rope.
37 posted on 11/18/2002 5:48:05 PM PST by Havoc
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To: xp38
Regarding Kennedy; I've always wondered at the timing of Ambassador Joseph Kennedy's return to the United States and the departure of Neville Chamberlain, while on the English scene we see the rising star of Winston Churchill, son of Wall Street's Lady Randolph.
38 posted on 11/18/2002 5:51:02 PM PST by TiaS
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To: MadIvan
...the tabloid Bild has called for recognition to be given to the suffering inflicted on the German population during the strategic air campaign of 1940-45.

Sounds like the tabloid should be renamed Bilge, Ivan. In other words, what rubbish!

39 posted on 11/18/2002 5:56:44 PM PST by Jonah Hex
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To: ffrancone; OldFriend
<< Anyone think that we ought to pull our military bases from Germany ought to think again.

I'm sorry for that terrible loss, which was repeated over and over and over. Noone who has not known up close the two surviving member of large extended families (70+), the rest of whom went into the ovens, can really get a grasp on the magnitude of the horror of what the Germans did .....

..... Like you, I have never regarded the American troops there as a 'favor' we do Germany. It is a favor we do for the rest of the world. >>

For sure!
40 posted on 11/18/2002 5:59:25 PM PST by Brian Allen
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To: SamAdams76; MadIvan
Winston Churchill is arguably the greatest man of the 20th Century.

   Who was promptly voted out of office by his ungrateful constituents.

. And this is the thanks we get?

    I'm sure Winnie said something like that.  Heh.

41 posted on 11/18/2002 6:04:38 PM PST by gcruse
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To: MadIvan
Shut up.
LOLOL You tell them Ivan. Seems as if they are the "mad ones" as in Mad Dogs. Of course this is done to try & get some free cash. Pretty disgusitng.
42 posted on 11/18/2002 6:10:00 PM PST by Libertina
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To: MadIvan
Total Barbra Streisand. (yikes! that's a scary phrase. I'll just type BS in future.) The Brits bombed whole cities because, even with radio guidance - finding your way to the target at night by means of a radio signal and whole lot of mathematics - the technology of the time (meaning heavy bombers like the Halifax) weren't accurate enough to reliably put the bomb within a mile of the target. So, no aiming for a factory. You have to aim at the city it's in and hope you hit the factory, or the railyard, or refinery, or whatever.

The US tried higher altitude bombing in daylight, and achieved greater accuracy, but at the cost of much higher casualties.

I pity the kids who haven't heard all this straight from the source ie from WWII vets and who are reduced to getting their info from revisionists and fools.

The appalling destruction of Dresden stands out even amid everything else that was going on, it's true. And it's probably also true that the attack on the city was militarily unnecessary - I'll leave that one for the experts. All I can say is when you've made it your daily business for close to six years to kill Germans, it's hard to stop. That's war. It's something to think about before invading Poland or throwing in your lot with a sawed-off Austrian socialist.

43 posted on 11/18/2002 6:12:27 PM PST by redbaiter
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To: MadIvan
The NSDAP on January 15, 1933 won 39.6% of the popular vote making it the largest party in the German Reichstag. As head of the NSDAP, under the parliamentary system of proportional representation, Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor by the then president Gen. Hindenburg under the constituional rules, provided he could form a coalition government with another minor party and as long as the combined representation represented over 50% of the votes in the Reichstag.

Within a year Hitler's popularity among Germans was unrivaled. Even after "Kristalnacht" and the "night of the long knives". It soared to unprecedented levels during the war as Germans proved victorious in the early years of the war. Resistance to the regime was practically non-existent and inefectual. The German people were responsible for Hitler, they elected him and they blindly supported him until the bitter end. They should count their blessings that even the Russians were not as brutal towards them in defeat as they had been with everyone else.

I say that the Germans have polluted the human gene pool long enough. We should have every German male sterilized and their females shipped to Afghanistan to serve as concubines. Enough is enough.

44 posted on 11/18/2002 6:14:14 PM PST by Cacique
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To: MadIvan
Don't hold back, tell them what you really think!
45 posted on 11/18/2002 6:14:43 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: MadIvan
Tell 'em, Ivan.

Rotterdam set the example, you revisionist Nazi SOBs.

You unleashed hell, then complain that your fingers got burned. Get stuffed.

46 posted on 11/18/2002 6:15:21 PM PST by Snake65
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To: uncbob
We have meet several Japanese couples who said that if we had not dropped the atomic bombs, they or their parents would have been killed in the invasion and their fanatics fighting to the bitter end as you noted.

It is the left wing history revisionists in Japan and the new Nazis in Germany who want to revise history, who are the problem.
47 posted on 11/18/2002 6:15:52 PM PST by Grampa Dave
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To: goodnesswins
SHEESH.....what is in THAT beer in Germany? I'm glad my relatives escaped in the late 1800's......

In the early 1880's, when my paternal grandfather was an infant, his family fled Germany from the Military Buildup and draft -- as early as 1882...

48 posted on 11/18/2002 6:16:49 PM PST by topher
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To: MadIvan
The suffering of the population in London is far more relevant. After all, the citizens of London didn't vote in Hitler.

How about the bombing of Rotterdam to coerce the Dutch into surrendering to Germany. This might have been the first use of terror bombing.

No, wait I forgot. The (German) Condor Legion practiced terror bombing during the Spanish Civil War.

49 posted on 11/18/2002 6:18:03 PM PST by Tribune7
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To: Aggie Mama
It's already happening. Another treatment may someday be necessary. Blowhard Schroeder must be nuts. Also, the Russians will not humor any anschluss.
50 posted on 11/18/2002 6:22:05 PM PST by sheik yerbouty
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