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Desecration as a Political Weapon: Lenin destroyed churches for a reason.
FrontPageMagazine.com ^ | November 20, 2002 | Johannes L. Jacobse

Posted on 11/20/2002 7:20:17 AM PST by SJackson

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To: ELS
Homiletic and Pastoral Review. I am afraid that this was LONG before digital era publishing/archiving. I have a couple of print copies and will (eventually) mail them at your request.

Another avenue which you may pursue if you like is to see if your public library (or Chancery/seminary) has a subscription to the quarterly Sacred Music. If they do, there's a series of articles on music in the Church after VII by Msgr. Schuler (Ph.D.) which is far more articulate and worth reading than my piece. His series was published about 12-15 years ago, as well.
41 posted on 11/20/2002 8:17:18 PM PST by ninenot
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
Any bets on how long you live afterward?

Not long enough to make the bet...

42 posted on 11/20/2002 8:19:21 PM PST by ninenot
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To: ninenot
LOL....you two guys are hilarious!!
43 posted on 11/20/2002 8:22:19 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: crazykatz
You know what...you are a bit biased against the faith of MILLIONS of Christians who suffered and died at the hands of soviet authorites simply because they were believers and followers of JESUS CHRIST.

Many FReepers speak disparagingly of Islam. There are over a BILLION of them. Many are willing to die for their faith. All sorts of people get used. Although I respect their commitment, I think you would agree that they have been misled (if you understood the origins of Islam, you would have compassion for the people who take the Koran literally). So it would seem that neither massive numbers nor martyrdom make for an objective reading of scripture, not even in your book. To make such an argument to me as if it were convincing, therefore, isn't.

THe RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS and the millions of other Orthodox Christians, who died at the hands of the Turks and other islamics, were JUST AS CHRISTIAN AS YOU....and they had icons as reminders of their Faith in God....not as graven idols!!

I think you had better examine that idea a little more closely. I seriously doubt the the most unsophisticated animist practicing voo-doo believes that the spirits reside in their figurines. They are reminders, channeling devices, and symbols too. "Graven" means constructed by artifice. "Image" means graphic symbol, not the thing itself. Those are facts, and neither custom nor plurality can change them. There is a reason for that Law and I doubt that you saw it in my first post, blinded by your affrontery for having your adherence to custom having been supposedly disparaged. It was that which I was saying is one of the costs of the practice.

You do them a vast disservice by inferring that their FAITH is less, somehow than yours. Shame on you.

I never said that. You are projecting in order to have something to attack. I said that it diminishes their spiritual power and puts them in a blind rage (see above). That says nothing of my faith, which to me is a matter between me and the Father. It was an observation, not a comparison, that I don't pretend to make.

Who are you to say that? Just because these Christians WORSHIPPED JESUS CHRIST in a way that YOU do not approve of... you infer that they were less CHRISTIAN.

Me? What does that matter? MY approval hardly matters. I think that judgment is up to the Lord. I said that I thought the Salvation Army had it about right, yet I am not one of them. So you see, I made no pretense. It was an observation, not posturing. For that you had best commune with Mr. MarMema.

44 posted on 11/20/2002 10:12:36 PM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie; MarMema
Your opinion matters less to me than you can ever imagine....you are a bigot about ANYBODY who differs from your BRAND OF CHRISTIANITY.

Your comments comparing Orthodox Christians to NON-CHRISTIAN muslims and animists proves it. SHAME ON YOU!!

"Mr." Marmema is a lady....and an Orthodox Christian.

Oh, yes God the Father will be the judge of YOUR actions and comments on the sacrifices of his followers and NOT, you.

Please refrain yourself from ever posting to me again. I do not like you or your weird ideas.

45 posted on 11/20/2002 10:25:30 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: Carry_Okie
I guess you missed the part about Christ going to the synagogues?
46 posted on 11/20/2002 10:29:05 PM PST by FormerLib
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To: crazykatz
Perhaps we need to try to suffer such fools more gladly. Do not let such tempt you into anger as that only serves their master.
47 posted on 11/20/2002 10:30:15 PM PST by FormerLib
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To: FormerLib
Well, I for one, appreciate the sacrifice of all Christians who died for their belief in and love of Jesus Christ. To make light of that or dismiss it, is a sin.

Just because a Christian happens to have an Icon or a rosary or a fancy church building or a cross...does NOT make him any less of a Christian than...let's say...carrie okie.

48 posted on 11/20/2002 10:38:36 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: FormerLib
"I guess you missed the part about Christ going to the synagogues?".....

Saint Paul taught in synagogues...he taught Jews about Jesus Christ there. And he was put in jail for it too.

49 posted on 11/20/2002 10:40:38 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: FormerLib
Synagogue is a Greek word meaning "assembly." IIRC these became houses of worship (lacking the Temple) in about the 5th or 6th Century AD. I might add, long after the stint in Babylon.

Do you propose that Christ ignored the torah?

DEU 12:11 Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD:

DEU 12:13 Take heed to thyself that thou offer not thy burnt offerings in every place that thou seest:

DEU 12:14 But in the place which the LORD shall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee.

There is a difference between a synagogue and a temple. As I recall, Christ went to synagogue to teach and talk with the elders; i.e., an assembly.
50 posted on 11/20/2002 10:46:20 PM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie
As I recall, Christ went to synagogue to teach and talk with the elders; i.e., an assembly.

Before we go any further, is it your contention that no worship occured in synagogues around the time of Christ?

51 posted on 11/20/2002 10:55:30 PM PST by FormerLib
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To: crazykatz
The man's a fool, what can you do?

Think he has any "graven images" of family members in his home? ;)

52 posted on 11/20/2002 10:56:35 PM PST by FormerLib
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To: FormerLib
He almost sounds islamic in his hatred for images.....HMmmmmmmmmm, another plant?????
53 posted on 11/20/2002 10:59:48 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: Campion
He's talking about "Romans" who have destroyed their own music, not "people making fun" of anything.

Ah, well that shines a light of awareness on things doesn't it.

Yawn. Must be nice to have such a simplistic worldview. Well, maybe not.

I don't have a simplistic worldview - just one that favors facts rather than fairytails.

Huh? What are you talking about? Theodosius was long dead by AD 438.

Oh, look, you're right. I mistated the date. Favor us with the Date theodosius Named your church "Catholic". Cause Ignatius didn't. And Do stop spreading that lie about the so called ignatian text. It is a lie and it is tired.

54 posted on 11/21/2002 5:01:20 AM PST by Havoc
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To: ninenot
Thank you for clarifying, ninenot. I'm not sure what to tell you on this. The Bible says to make a Joyful noise to the Lord, not a RAD one. So I can somewhat sympathize.
Praise isn't supposed to fit our wishes, but those of God.
55 posted on 11/21/2002 5:05:16 AM PST by Havoc
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To: Havoc
Thanks for your sympathy. What struck me about the article (the thread-starter) is how the methods of Nebuchadnezzar, Stalin, and certain RC Bishops and priests are identical: destroy/debauch the 'holy spaces and things.'

The supreme irony is that the RC's are doing it to the RC Church--and it has caused more than a little resentment, mind you.

As to resolving the problem: it will take a while, but we'll fix it. Thanks again for your well-wishes.
56 posted on 11/21/2002 8:16:38 AM PST by ninenot
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To: ninenot
The supreme irony is that the RC's are doing it to the RC Church--and it has caused more than a little resentment, mind you.

You might ask yourself if the RC cares about much of anything other than securing it's own power. Looking at them from a purely biblical standpoint, they have trappings made to have them look like good people on the clerical side; but, their story don't match scripture. How they sing kindof looses any impact when they don't know God's word to begin with. Just an observation. Paul said that God is the Pillar and foundation of Truth. The RCC says it is. When you start looking deeper, the inconsistancies grow rapidly.

57 posted on 11/21/2002 10:32:01 AM PST by Havoc
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To: Havoc
We shall politely disagree, I think.
58 posted on 11/21/2002 10:35:10 AM PST by ninenot
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To: ninenot
Well, given that the quote from Timothy is about sentence structure and cannot be construed to say the church is the pillar and foundation of truth, I'm not sure on what you are disagreeing. When one throws context on top of it, one has to wonder what the learned 'doctors' of the church were drinking or smoking to come up with that blasphemous gem.
So, you have me confused as you quietly withdraw. Thank you for your politeness anyway.
59 posted on 11/21/2002 7:23:06 PM PST by Havoc
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