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What is the Koran?
atlantic monthly ^ | J A N U A R Y 1 9 9 9 | Toby Lester

Posted on 11/20/2002 3:13:18 PM PST by dennisw

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To: ppaul
Excellent site, thanks ppaul!
61 posted on 11/22/2002 8:33:46 AM PST by ApesForEvolution
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To: dennisw
"To historicize the Koran would in effect delegitimize the whole historical experience of the Muslim community," says R. Stephen Humphreys, a professor of Islamic studies at the University of California at Santa Barbara.

"The Koran is the charter for the community, the document that called it into existence. And ideally -- though obviously not always in reality -- Islamic history has been the effort to pursue and work out the commandments of the Koran in human life. If the Koran is a historical document, then the whole Islamic struggle of fourteen centuries is effectively meaningless."

I don't pray for much, but what a wonderful world it would be for the Islam maniacs to realize that their gutter "religion" is nothing but psychotic babble.

62 posted on 11/22/2002 9:18:28 AM PST by jiggyboy
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I have to say that the level of intolerance shown in this forum today is simply incredible. How does the statement go, that one sign of intelligence is the ability to consider two opposing ideas at once and still retain the ability to function.

Since September 11th, I have undertaken an informal study of the Koran and compared it with the 20+ years I have spent as a student of the Bible. I'm sure I'll get flamed here, but in the interest of honest intellectual discourse, I want to make a few observations.

Almost all religions follow the same pattern of development.

1. A luminary of some kind professes inspiration from God.

2. He is persecuted because, in general, his revelations destabilize whatever religion is considered "orthodoxy" at the time.

3. After the death of the founder, usually within a generation, there is an attempt to codify the founder's teachings and preserve them for posterity.

4. From this point, "the book" supplants Deity and a priestly class emerges to interpret the book to preserve the new orthodoxy. The priestly class aligns itself with political power in order to have "enforcement" authority against heretics. The priestly class, in order to preserve its power, must begin to teach that no further revelation will ever come again, thus branding future prophets/reformers as "false prophets."

5. Corruption, division, and infighting usually causes schism and factionalism.

6. A new messenger "from God" appears on the scene with a mission to clean up the mess. He is promptly labeled a heretic whose followers must be persecuted.

7. Return to step two and repeat ad nauseam...

I think the key to recognize here, is that once a religion teaches that no further revelation will ever come, it is a dead faith. It has reached the point where its inevitable corruption and apostasy is certain.

In my studies of the Koran, Muslims are commanded to be humble, submissive, and to practice charity. The examples it encourages for emulation are the ancient Biblical patriarchs like Noah, Abraham, Joseph, etc. It proclaims belief in all God's apostles and affirms the teachings of Jesus. Mohammed never set himself up as an example of piety. He claimed to be a witness of the light, not the light itself.

Where it departs from Christian belief, and this is a critical point, is that it doesn't testify that Jesus was crucified as an atonement for mankind's sin. To a Christian, this is obviously unacceptable, but to discount the value of the other teachings in the book is uncalled for.

I personally believe that God will bless people according to the light the are willing to receive. To an idolatrous people living in the 6th century, when Orthodox Christianity had fallen into image worship and corruption, and the Jews were a conquered and scattered people, Islam may well have been intended to move a portion of mankind a few steps forward towards a fullness of light that would not dawn fully until centuries later. Interestingly enough, nowhere in the Koran does Mohammed make the claim to be the last prophet. That came from his followers much later. Indeed, a true Muslim should be willing to accept "all the holy apostles."

Intolerance is an unworthy sentiment that promotes hate, not fellowship. Building bridges is perferable to burning them. If the churches of Christendom were worthy messengers, a true Muslim would be bound by his faith to give heed to their message. Conflict serves only the Adversary of all Good and accomplishes only his ends.

Greg West
63 posted on 11/22/2002 9:40:25 AM PST by gregwest
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To: dennisw
The Koran is a crock of Shi'ite, written by a deranged child molester, huckster and murderer.
64 posted on 11/22/2002 12:24:03 PM PST by TexasRepublic
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To: dennisw
"What's the Koran?" Reading material for the john and hope that it's water soluble. Because after personal use, it can be flushed.
65 posted on 11/22/2002 12:24:10 PM PST by lilylangtree
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To: gregwest; sauropod; hellinahandcart; Dave Dilegge; stand watie; japaneseghost; veronica; dennisw; ..
Uh Hum, Excuse Me, we are intolerant on these threads? First of all, gregwest Sir, all I said was that the gentleman was unusual and is a new member of FR...

We have varying opinions here, and some of us are very learned in Bible Study and disagree with your assessment of the Koran....

You Sir, are the one being intolerant with your sermon which seems to talk down to those who don't agree with you...

Thank you very much for your opinion...

66 posted on 11/22/2002 12:33:42 PM PST by KLT
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To: Cvengr
correctly stated ...
67 posted on 11/22/2002 12:44:00 PM PST by Bobby777
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Oh, you're on your own, girlfriend. Two is my bag limit on "tolerance"-advocates, and I reached it before noon today.

Don't want to have to pay a fine. ;D

Jesse home yet?

68 posted on 11/22/2002 12:45:57 PM PST by hellinahandcart
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1968 Robert Kennedy assassinated - Islamic Terrorist

1970 (?) 4 airliners hijacked, 3 airliners blownup in the Middle East in single operation - - Islamic Terrorists
1970 Jordanian citizens attacked, murdered (by PLO) - - Islamic Terrorists

1972 Munich massacre of Israelis - Islamic Terrorists

1975 Raid on Entebbe, Uganda - Israeli plane hijacked, Israelis murdered - Islamic Terrorists

1983 Lebanon Marine Barracks attack - 250 murdered - Islamic Terrorists

1985 Rome Airport murders - Islamic Terrorists
1985 TWA Flight 847 hijacked, U.S. Navy diver murdered - Islamic Terrorists
1985 Achille Lauro hijacking, murder - Islamic Terrorists

1986 Germany, Disco Bombing, U.S. military personnel murdered - Islamic Terrorists

1988 Pan Am 747 Flight 103 Bombing, Lockerbie, 100's murdered - Islamic Terrorists

1993 Khobar Towers attack - Islamic Terrorists
1993 World Trade Center attacked - Islamic Terrorists

1998 U.S. Kenya Embassy blown up, 100's murdered - Islamic Terrorists
1998 U.S. Tanzania Embassy blown up, 100's murdered - Islamic Terrorists

1999 Plot to blow up Space Needle - Islamic Terrorists
2000 USS Cole attacked, many U.S. Navy sailors murdered - Islamic Terrorists
2000-2002 Intifada against Israel - 100's dead and injured - Islamic Terrorists

2001 4 Commercial airliners hijacked, 250+ murdered - Islamic Terrorists
2001 World Trade Center attacked, 2800+ murdered - Islamic Terrorists
2001 Flight 93 murders - Islamic Terrorists
2001 Pentagon attacked, 180+ murdered - Islamic Terrorists

2002 Reporter Daniel Pearl, kidnapped and murdered - Islamic Terrorists
2002 Philippines American missionary, Filipino nurse killed - Islamic Terrorists
2002 July 4, El Al attack Los Angeles LAX, several murdered - Islamic Terrorist
2002 Bali bombing - 200 dead, 300 injured - Islamic Terrorists
2002 Yemen, French Oil Tanker attacked - Islamic Terrorists
2002 Marines attacked / murdered in Kuwait - Islamic Terrorists
2002 Washington D.C. sniper - Islamic Terrorist
2002 Russian Theater attacked, 100+ dead - Islamic Terrorists

PLO - Islamic Terrorists
PFLP - Islamic Terrorists
Black September - Islamic Terrorists
Fatah - Islamic Terrorists
Islamic Jihad - Islamic Terrorists
Hizbollah - Islamic Terrorists
Hamas - Islamic Terrorists
Yasser Arafat - Islamic Terrorist
Osama bin Laden - Islamic Terrorist
69 posted on 11/22/2002 12:55:16 PM PST by Bobby777
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To: dennisw
bump for later reading
70 posted on 11/22/2002 1:05:24 PM PST by ToryNotion
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To: gregwest
The Quran requres that good Muslims go out and kill the infidel.

The Bible does not do that. I fail to see any equivalence between the two belief systems.


71 posted on 11/22/2002 1:16:08 PM PST by sauropod
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To: KLT; scholar; Happygal

I see you've had the pleasure of meeting gregwest, huh?
Well what can anyone say about the high Priest/Rabbi/Shaman/Poobah/Buddah (to the power of2) on all things mortal *&* beyoooonnnnd?
This is no ordinary mortal man by any measure we'd recognize, that's for damned sure.

Sure, don'tcha know this guy's spent the past 20 years (!) handwriting trigonometeric function tables (in degrees-minutes, of course...) on a cold stone slab in a castle Monastary located on a mountain top in some obscure -- but *pure* -- country until *one* day?
gregwest was himself struck -- between the eyes -- by *gasp*..."The Pure White Light Of Stupidity."

The result -- as you undoubtably now know -- is that no wo/man *tells* gregwest anything.
No-no-no; gregwest tells [you].

I mean try to be be serious here, Kar.
Why most everyone knows gregwest's "The" self-appointed & consummate last word on every & anything under the bloody sun.

So for the love of Jesus, then; please, I implore you!!
Quit now while you're still sane; because, hear me nowwwww!!
It is your very sanity which is at stake!
Now if you'll excuse me; gregwest's strange & powerful magic is makkkinggg...meeeee... >clunk<

...wake me when It's -- mercifully -- over, OK Angel? :o)

72 posted on 11/22/2002 1:44:19 PM PST by Landru
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To: Bobby777; gregwest
Thank you Bobby777 for the reminder....I think some people forget...
73 posted on 11/22/2002 1:46:07 PM PST by KLT
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LOL! nice post!

free dixie,sw

74 posted on 11/22/2002 1:50:53 PM PST by stand watie
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To: Landru; Bobby777
Yes, just had the pleasure of meeting gregwest, Landru....I was kind of taken aback...especially since, I don't think I've been intolerant...

Well, well, well....don't knap too long...never know what you can miss....

BTW...been missing my sorcerer's hat...have you seen it?

FreeGards From The Socialist Republic Of Noo Yawk, (not far from ground zero),


75 posted on 11/22/2002 1:52:14 PM PST by KLT
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To: hellinahandcart
Uh oh, been a hard day on FR aye....gettin into a couple of tussles are ya?

Yes, just got Jesse home...weak, skinny and hurting, but he's home...

Speak to ya later...

76 posted on 11/22/2002 1:55:39 PM PST by KLT
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Good deal, glad he's home!
77 posted on 11/22/2002 1:58:38 PM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: sauropod; hellinahandcart
Thank you POD, that's the way I feel...You are a genius, a gentleman and a scholar...

That's why we love ya....

78 posted on 11/22/2002 1:58:40 PM PST by KLT
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To: hellinahandcart
I'm glad he's home if I can just fatten his skinny arse up....LOL
79 posted on 11/22/2002 2:00:07 PM PST by KLT
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I feel my bowels move... under my feet....
80 posted on 11/22/2002 2:04:09 PM PST by sauropod
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