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The Battle of Omdurman-Sudan 1898
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Posted on 11/21/2002 3:10:36 PM PST by Sparta

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To: archy; All
But several of the renditions of the 17th Lancers interesting bad day at Omdurman are quite good.

The use of Soft Point Ammo, from the Dum Dum Arsenal in India helped the Brits...That is how a .303 stops a Dervish.

Presumably the Officer in the bottom painting is Winston C, with his famed Model 1896 Mauser semi-automatic pistol.

21 posted on 11/21/2002 6:10:28 PM PST by Lael
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
... If the mahdi was a true prophet and if Mohammed's allah were a true god he would have won ...
The mahdi did win. He had departed this world long before the British columns reached Obdurman. The British commanders had to content themselves with an artillery strike on the mahdi's tomb. As for Sudan, it remains in the indissoluble embrace of the Prophet to this day. Where, however, is the British empire?

Islamic civilization is the only civilization that ever threatened the West in any real way. As late as five hundred years ago Vienna, at the heart of middle-Europe, was beseiged by Ottomans. We underestimate these people at our peril.
22 posted on 11/21/2002 6:24:14 PM PST by Asclepius
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To: Asclepius
As late as five hundred years ago Vienna, at the heart of middle-Europe, was beseiged by Ottomans.

This happened twice. You probably refer to the earlier siege of Vienna, about 1530 by Suleiman the Magnificent. That was a failure. The armies gave up and withrew.

Another attempt was made circa 1683, IIRC. That was a disaster, with the Ottoman armies surprised by a relieving force and routed.

23 posted on 11/21/2002 6:37:11 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Sparta
Another excellent post sparta. If you're not careful you may develop a cult following amongst us testosterone laden FReepers.

May I suggest the Siege of Malta (1568?)for a future post. There's a great book by Ernle Bradford about the battle but you may be able to find a shorter article about how the vastly outnumbere Knights of Saint John withstood a massive siege by the religion of piece.

Another suggestion would be the exploits of Decatur along the Barbary Coast.

24 posted on 11/21/2002 6:39:56 PM PST by MattinNJ
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To: MattinNJ
I already have. (63 have already signed up)
25 posted on 11/21/2002 6:42:42 PM PST by Sparta
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To: Lael
Presumably the Officer in the bottom painting is Winston C, with his famed Model 189g Mauser semi-automatic pistol.

He'd been given permission to carry his personally owned pistol rather than a saber that day, having previously suffered a slight injury to his right arm. Interestingly, some authorities list his actions that day as being the first documented account of the use of an autoloading handgun in combat.

And here we are, a hundred-four years later. And beneath the seat of my pickup truck sits a C96 Mauser *broomhandle* pistol that he'd have found instantly familiar, quite capable of doing the job it did then just as effectively for me. Due to a quirk in local firearms laws, it's the best immediate choice available to me for the purpose, and if called upon, I expect it'll serve me well.

But the *DumDum* arsenal *manstopper* loads were soft-nosed pistol ammunition meant to drop an adversary with an edged weapon immediately, and fired in the .455 MkI and .450 pistols of the day, I'd expect they did. Winston carried the C96 for ease of reloading, but missed out on a 20-round magazine like mine has....

And I think the Sudanese batallions at least, and possibly some of the Brits at Omdurman were still using the Martini-Henry. Churchill's own description of a mangled recipient of one of the Martini slugs, which needed little help in the stopping department, mentions their use.

-archy-/-

26 posted on 11/21/2002 6:43:05 PM PST by archy
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To: Sparta
(63 have already signed up)

Kindly make that 64, and add me to the list, please.

-archy-/-

27 posted on 11/21/2002 6:44:32 PM PST by archy
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To: LS
I'm a former newspaper photog, researcher and sometimes editor. And the subject is one with which I'm familiar.

Check out my freeper profile for an interesting Civil War rendition from Don Trioni, a really talented artist.

-archy-/-

28 posted on 11/21/2002 6:53:34 PM PST by archy
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To: Asclepius
The mahdi may have captured Kartoom and killed Gordon but he still died not long afterward. Another sand prophet reduced to sand.You are correct.
We now have the wake up call I have been worrying about for the last 30 years.
29 posted on 11/21/2002 6:59:06 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Sparta
Didn't Kitchner do something with the Mahdi's skull?
I have a vague memory.
30 posted on 11/21/2002 7:11:05 PM PST by tet68
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To: Sparta
Great! please add me to the Western Civilization Military History ping list.
31 posted on 11/21/2002 7:21:31 PM PST by CapandBall
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To: Sparta
Lord Kitchener

32 posted on 11/21/2002 7:32:51 PM PST by Consort
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To: Sparta
I know we're talking about different conflicts here; I was just trying to moderate the exuberant pro-Britishnes of some of the posters.
33 posted on 11/21/2002 7:39:02 PM PST by Maedhros
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To: Maedhros
Your apology is accepted. Seriously, thanks for the suggestion.
34 posted on 11/21/2002 7:45:47 PM PST by Sparta
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To: Sparta
Ad me to your ping list, Sparta. Great stuff here, thanks.

Grizz
35 posted on 11/21/2002 7:59:55 PM PST by Grizzly Bear
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To: archy
I've have a copy of "Frontiers and Wars" which (it says from the Publisher's Note)is a compilation of churchill's first four books. The River War was first published in 1899, "describes the re-conquest of the Soudan... from the Mahdi who was, as Sir Winston saw in 1899, the father of Arab nationalism".
It is Kipling era stuff. White man's burden and all that!
36 posted on 11/21/2002 9:12:35 PM PST by glorgau
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To: Sparta
I already have. (63 have already signed up)

OK, you got me. Put me on the list. :-)

37 posted on 11/21/2002 9:28:44 PM PST by an amused spectator
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: Sparta
"They say it was a shocking site

After the field was won:

for many thousand bodies were

Lay rotting in the sun:

But things like that, you know must be

After a famous victory."

Robert Southey

39 posted on 11/21/2002 11:15:52 PM PST by Eternal_Bear
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To: Maedhros
The Boers were sorta like a Calvinist Taliban but Kitchener's method of breaking their will by starving their children in concentration camps was definitely beyond the pale.
40 posted on 11/22/2002 3:30:56 AM PST by weikel
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