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FReeper Needs Advice: How Can We Better Respond To Pro-Aborts?
Sparta | 26 Nov 02 | Sparta

Posted on 11/26/2002 9:49:54 AM PST by Mr. Silverback

Sparta graciously gave me permission to post the text of this freepmail, which was sent to me from the "Pro-Life Families Complain About Group's Telemarketing Calls" thread:

This was going to be off topic, so I chose to freepmail you this instead.

I was debating abortion with my friends today. They were saying that abortion should be legal because children of poor parents would grow up in misery. Also, raped women would be too traumatized to carry their children. Also, teenage girls would have their lives ruined by caring for illegitmate children. I said that adoption would give the children a chance for life in the first two situations a better life and I said the teenage girls need to learn how to responsible. They then said that pro-lifers were just cruel and evil. How do I better respond to pro-abortion arguements?


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Free Republic; Philosophy; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: heroicsparta; procoercion; prolife; sickpuppies
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So, let us plumb the depths of the greatest font of wisdom on the web: The minds of FReepers! How can Sparta better respond to these pro-aborts and how can we all better respond to the issue in general?
1 posted on 11/26/2002 9:49:54 AM PST by Mr. Silverback
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To: Mr. Silverback
aposiopetic; attagirl; bulldogs; Charlie OK; Delphinium; HungarianGypsy; KeyBored; libertygirl; MHGinTN; Sparta; Vic3O3; victim soul ProLife Ping!

If anyone wants on or off my ProLife Ping List, please say so here or send me freepmail.

2 posted on 11/26/2002 9:50:48 AM PST by Mr. Silverback
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To: Mr. Silverback
Thank you again and I wait for the ping list's wisdom.
3 posted on 11/26/2002 9:50:53 AM PST by Sparta
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To: Sparta
No sweat. I'm gonna come back in a few minutes and give you my take.
4 posted on 11/26/2002 9:51:50 AM PST by Mr. Silverback
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To: Mr. Silverback
MY IDEA.
5 posted on 11/26/2002 9:54:55 AM PST by Illbay
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To: Mr. Silverback
Pro-lifers are cruel and evil because they want innocent little children to live. Got it.

My feeling is that establishing the nature of the "fetus" is sometimes useful. For me, it is alive (how is it not?) and it is human (how is it not?). On what grounds can we kill a living human who has committed no crime? I call that murder. They call it "choice". It is no more defensible than the Jewish Holocaust or slavery.

Your friends seem focused on outcomes (it will ruin a teenager's life) and not on moral principles (murder is wrong). Hey, Hitler envisioned wonderful outcomes too. Europe free of sub-human vermin! Oh, how lovely! But he was wrong and he committed great evil.

6 posted on 11/26/2002 9:56:32 AM PST by ClearCase_guy
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To: Illbay
You are one sick puppy.
7 posted on 11/26/2002 9:58:15 AM PST by DLfromthedesert
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To: ClearCase_guy
They're my friends. I was the one who sent the FreepMail. I don't mean any disrespect.
8 posted on 11/26/2002 9:58:28 AM PST by Sparta
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To: Mr. Silverback
How Can We Better Respond To Pro-Aborts?

Draw a line in the sand of moral absolution at the first trimester, rape and incest, or the life of the mother!

9 posted on 11/26/2002 10:02:26 AM PST by meandog
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To: Mr. Silverback
Look, at this point this "right" is deeply ingrained in our culture. The best way make abortion rare is to change the hearts and minds of people.

I believe laws regarding parental consent and informed consent are the best way to go.

Technology since the inception of Roe v Wade has made it easy to view the living fetus and women should be given this info as part of the decision-making process.

It is the women who have been lied to by the abortion industry who are the ones who have to deal with what they have done and I know many who grieve and feel profound guilt.
10 posted on 11/26/2002 10:03:28 AM PST by DLfromthedesert
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To: Mr. Silverback
Like Clearcase_guy said, pro-aborts are focused on the end result: no fetus (baby) to deal with.

Personally (and this comes from a woman), if women and girls don't want to deal with a pregnancy, the best way to avoid pregnancy is keep their legs closed.
11 posted on 11/26/2002 10:04:23 AM PST by Pintobean
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To: Mr. Silverback
They were saying that abortion should be legal because children of poor parents would grow up in misery.

That's the most ridiculous pro-abortion argument I've ever heard. Aren't these the same people who think the rich are coddled too much? Now do they propose mass murder of the poor?

12 posted on 11/26/2002 10:04:26 AM PST by Mr. Bird
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To: Mr. Silverback
I remind them that, even though they may not know it, many of their friends and families used to be fetuses. I will go up to avidly pro-abortionists and introduce myself as a former fetus.
13 posted on 11/26/2002 10:04:31 AM PST by hunter112
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To: Mr. Silverback
Like Clearcase_guy said, pro-aborts are focused on the end result: no fetus (baby) to deal with.

Personally (and this comes from a woman), IMO,if women and girls don't want to deal with a pregnancy, the best way to avoid pregnancy is keep their legs closed.
14 posted on 11/26/2002 10:04:54 AM PST by Pintobean
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To: aposiopetic; attagirl; bulldogs; Charlie OK; Delphinium; HungarianGypsy; KeyBored; libertygirl; ...
OOOPS!! Let's try that again!

ProLife Ping!

If anyone wants on or off my ProLife Ping List, please say so here or send me freepmail.

15 posted on 11/26/2002 10:05:13 AM PST by Mr. Silverback
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To: Illbay
Ummm...Illbay...I'm at a computer with no sound at all right now. Description?
16 posted on 11/26/2002 10:07:09 AM PST by Mr. Silverback
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To: Mr. Silverback
Pro-Woman Answers to Pro-Choice Questions.
17 posted on 11/26/2002 10:07:33 AM PST by hillsborofox
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To: Pintobean
Personally (and this comes from a woman), if women and girls don't want to deal with a pregnancy, the best way to avoid pregnancy is keep their legs closed.

My, what a radical and bold concept you've presented here...I'm sure you'll go on to claim, in that smug ProLifer manner, that this method is 100% effective.

18 posted on 11/26/2002 10:09:35 AM PST by Mr. Silverback
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To: All
We can respond to them with the simple truth, that abortion is murder. We can respond to the problem by electing anti-abortion candidates into ofc, who will outlaw it, or at the very least, severely curtail it. I'm not into convincing pro-abortion nuts of obvious arguments. Let's elect some people who will change the law and force it down their throats. The people who support abortion are not reasonable, so appeals to them will be fruitless, for the most part. It's time to act, not to talk. If you not voting, you need to start. This war can be won, but only if we fight it.....
19 posted on 11/26/2002 10:10:24 AM PST by Malcolm
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To: Sparta
Start here Sparta.

Ten Fallacies in the Abortion Debate

20 posted on 11/26/2002 10:11:31 AM PST by jwalsh07
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To: ClearCase_guy
If you have morality/conscious, do not abort your kid. By your example they know that you are mine, if you love each other. That is real Christian answer to abortion.

The religious police in Saudi Arabia beat women if they are not covering themselves and men if they are eating during Ramadan! Any stupid foaming at the mouth militant Christian, who is crying over the murder of babies, and would like to force others to stop, is not behaving as Jesus asked us to do; but behaving as Mohamed and his barbarians.

21 posted on 11/26/2002 10:12:35 AM PST by philosofy123
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To: Mr. Silverback
"They then said that pro-lifers were just cruel and evil. How do I better respond to pro-abortion arguements?'

Personalize it.

"Cruel and evil, you say? You mean.............my contention that the baby should be given a chance at life is more cruel and evil than ripping him or apart......literally........inside the mama's very womb? Is that what you're saying?"

This has worked for me many, many times when I get the "well, someone has to speak up for women!":

"Maybe...............but who speaks up for the little guy inside mama?"

Stops 'em cold every time.

THEN..........

"You a parent? You are? Can you imagine little [Bobby / Susie] being ripped apart inside your wife's womb? No? Not a pleasant thought, is it?"

"Don't know about you, but my parents' lives weren't all roses all the time, and we never had much money. Life happens, right? No one has the 'perfect, ideal' life for bringing a baby into the world. If that was truly to become a criterion for "allowing" childbirth, can you imagine what would happen to the birthrate around the world? .....and who gets to decide who survives to birth and who doesn't, and what criteria? the mother?? what gives her such God-like insight and authority over another human life?"

"Don't forget that at the very instant of conception, it's no longer just "HER body" we're talking about here."

Or:

"Would you advocate killing a baby once it's born? You wouldn't? Then you tell me the difference between that and abortion....outside of a few inches distance. Don't even mention "viability", for the baby is damned viable if you don't rip it apart inside mama. So........tell me the difference."

22 posted on 11/26/2002 10:17:26 AM PST by RightOnline
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To: Mr. Silverback
Here are some helpful articles:
Pro-Life Reponses

The above is the first of five pages so read them all

Summary of the above

Stand to Reason

Abortion, Bioethics, and Personhood
23 posted on 11/26/2002 10:18:48 AM PST by FroedrickVonFreepenstein
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To: Mr. Silverback
Today, I am searching for a way to approach an 87 year old ex-pastor, and standing elder of a Bible believing church. I found out that he, his wife, and daughter (the wife of another elder) believes that abortion is okay. What advise would some of you give me? Do you believe as I do that something must be wrong in the heart? If one is truly born again, how could they take this stand?
24 posted on 11/26/2002 10:23:15 AM PST by Delphinium
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To: Pintobean
This issue boils down to responsibly 99% of the time. My wife and I waited 6yrs after getting married to have our first child. Birth control works if you use it correctly, therefore the "choice" to have a child was ours to make.

As for rapes, statistically few women get pregnant under such tramatic experiences and again birth control works. In the case of life of the mother at risk thats the only case where I would side with the pro-choicers. I don't think anyone has a right to ask some else to give their life, we each have to make that choice on our own and let the Lord judge our decision.

25 posted on 11/26/2002 10:23:55 AM PST by RockyMtnMan
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To: Mr. Silverback
First, those arguments are red herrings, they do not deal with the truth of abortion. When people bring up these hypothetical situations, get them off that and into the question of whether a human embryo is a life or not.

People respond in different ways to different messages. One method of communication is scientific, not religious. Discuss the development of the embryo into a a fetus, the fact that all organs, bones, etc are completely formed by week eight and simply need to grow for the next 32 weeks. Use logic -- would the embryo grow into a dog? A frog? An elephant? No, it's only going to be a human baby. It's not going to be anything else. The question is, is it a person?

If the debater says, well the baby isn't viable, it can't survive on its own, you come back with neither can a newborn infant. If you give birth and leave the baby, it will die. A handicapped child or adult often can't survive on his/her own -- should they be killed? A toddler often can't survive on its own -- should they be killed?

It's all a matter of SIZE. Abortion is about big people killing little people simply because they can.

The important thing is to debate with truth and honesty. Abortion is never acceptable because it is the murder of a human person. Once someone accepts that the baby is a human person, and they still think abortion is OK, then they are saying that some human beings have more value than other human beings because of the socioeconomic status, race, etc. That is a form of slavery.

These are just my quick thoughts on the matter. Gotta get back to work! Good luck ... there are many wonderful debaters here on FR who have great advice!

26 posted on 11/26/2002 10:24:01 AM PST by Gophack
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To: Mr. Silverback
Take there examples to a further degree. Ask them what the net worth of the parents should be in order to justify abortion. Also, if a parent loses a job shouldn't they put one of their children to death in order to be able to pay the bills ?

For the rape, ask them why punish the unborn baby with death because his mother was raped.

These questions will drive the debate back to the main issue, which is "What rights does the unborn have" and why doesn't the pro-abort support any of those rights.

27 posted on 11/26/2002 10:26:11 AM PST by VRWC_minion
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To: meandog
You got it ... except, life of the mother needs to be drawn up to the time the little one is viable, approximately 22nd - 24th week from last ovulation of the mother. But the line wouldn't actually be a moral line in the sand since the truth is, every individual human now alive began their life in their body at the moment of conception, and their mother began life support even before she was aware of it, at implantation. Law can protect the little ones to some extent, but truly full affirmation of prenatal life will be possible only when our national conscience grows up sufficiently.
28 posted on 11/26/2002 10:26:16 AM PST by MHGinTN
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To: Mr. Silverback
Many good arguments the pro-life side. I can't understand why any exception for rape, or incest would be made. Would these same people believe that the rapist should get death for their crime? The innocent child has no part in what the father has done? Its so simple, but many use this as an argument?

29 posted on 11/26/2002 10:29:07 AM PST by Delphinium
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To: Sparta
A general suggestion is learn how these procedures are done (I can help with that if you don't have another ready source) and don't be afraid to tell people. For dealing with your friends who think that you're cruel, I offer some suggestions. Let's go to the tape:

They were saying that abortion should be legal because children of poor parents would grow up in misery.

Ask them this: If they took a poll of 1,000 poor kids, how many of them do you think would say, "Yeah, I'd sure rather have been ripped limb from limb and vacuumed up instead of growing up poor."

Also, raped women would be too traumatized to carry their children.

It is a well-known fact that one of the main psychological problems that rape/incest victims go through is having feelings of unjustified guilt. Ask your friends if they really believe that the best way to cope with this psychological trauma is for the woman to kill her child. And it is her child, even if he or she was foisted on her by vile circumstances. You may also want to point out that a tiny percentage of rape victims (1% or so, if memory serves) actually become pregnant. Many rapists fail to ejaculate; rape is, after all, a hate crime in which the weapon of choice is a penis, it is not an act of procreation. You might also ask what other psychological problems or unpleasant emotions justify killing children. Andrea Yates sure was having a rough day...

Also, teenage girls would have their lives ruined by caring for illegitmate children.

See argument for "poor kids being miserable" above. If their best answer to teen promisuity is turning babies into medical waste, they are sick puppies indeed.

They then said that pro-lifers were just cruel and evil.

This is just beyond the pale, and you are perfectly justified asking them for an apology. More to the point, ClearCase_guy put forth the very point you should bring back to them: "Pro-lifers are cruel and evil because they want innocent little children to live. Got it."

Be carefull how you present these arguments. Pray first, and be sensitive to where these folks might be coming from. Women in the group may have this position because they have aborted a child. Most women choose abortion because they are convinced there is no way other out. Granted, that's not an excuse-- my daughter carries the middle name of a woman who sacrificed her life for her "products of conception"--she refused chemo because she would have to abort to take the treatments. Men also tend to defend the pro-coercion side of the question if they helped along an abortion decision in a wife or girlfriend or even just stood aside while she made the call.

Let me also suggest a book called "Who Broke The Baby?" It takes the pro-abort arguments in turn and demolishes them--and I do mean demolish!

30 posted on 11/26/2002 10:34:14 AM PST by Mr. Silverback
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To: Mr. Silverback
One more thing. Many pro-aborts have themselves aborted. If they admit with you that abortion is wrong and is murder they essentially are condeming themselves and most folks would rather stay in denial than admit the truth.

For example, my mom used to work for a GP during the 60's and helped make appointments for girls to have abortions in our neighboring state where it was legal. She will never ever admit that the child is alive until it draws its first breath (she believes this is when the soul enters). when its pointed out she has no religious basis or physical basis to support this view she uses circular logic to avoid the obvious conclusion. I firmly believe she cannot ever accept that what she did was aiding the death of the unborn. It would be too horrible to accept. Therefore, its not possible to convert her in debate.

31 posted on 11/26/2002 10:35:54 AM PST by VRWC_minion
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To: Mr. Silverback
Somewhere I saw a picture of a doctor who was operating on a pregnant mother, when the unborn child reached out through the incision and grabbed the doctors' finger. For me, that picture is imposssible to argue against. Is there anyone with more comuter skill that can find this photo?
32 posted on 11/26/2002 10:36:17 AM PST by airborne
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To: Mr. Silverback
I would like those links please.
33 posted on 11/26/2002 10:40:53 AM PST by Sparta
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To: Mr. Silverback
If its not a baby, your not pregnant.
34 posted on 11/26/2002 10:41:31 AM PST by Phantom Lord
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To: Mr. Silverback
Here are some links with much information which will leave even the most shrill pro-abort speechless:

The Abortion Lies: Quotes from Abortionists and Abortion Clinic Workers

Abortion Quotes From Those In the Industry

BABY PARTS, THE FEMINIST ALTERNATIVE TO LIVE BIRTH: AN INTERVIEW WITH A BABY-BREAKER, LEROY CARHART

The Best Article Ever Written About Abortion-The sisterhood, 27 years later

If the quotes in the first two articles, the facts in the third article, and the logic and reason of the fourth article do no change their minds, they are beyond hope.

35 posted on 11/26/2002 10:43:58 AM PST by Skooz
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To: Sparta
How do I better respond to pro-abortion arguements?

For one thing, don't call them "pro-aborts" like Mr. Silverbeck did. :-)

I don't have any other suggestions other than try not to put the other person on the defensive. That usually makes them more prone to defending their own positions rather than listening to yours.

36 posted on 11/26/2002 10:44:19 AM PST by DumpsterDiver
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To: hunter112; Former Fetus
former fetus.

There is a FReeper with that handle.

37 posted on 11/26/2002 10:44:34 AM PST by Phantom Lord
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To: Delphinium
Let me think and pray on this. As for these:

Do you believe as I do that something must be wrong in the heart? If one is truly born again, how could they take this stand?

I think it's more that something is missing in the mind, since to be compassionate to someone you must have at least a basic grasp of their circumstances. After I was born-again I was still a pro-choicer for years. Of course, I was young and stupid, this man doesn't have that excuse, plus he is a teacher, from whom more is required by God. I changed sides when I found out more about fetal development. He needs to be confronted with the reality of these procedures...there are no circumstances under which Christ would advocate ripping a little kid into fetal cutlets and throwing her in the trash.

38 posted on 11/26/2002 10:57:36 AM PST by Mr. Silverback
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To: Sparta
May be a few days, but I'll get them to you or type in some stuff I've got and send it to you.
39 posted on 11/26/2002 11:01:09 AM PST by Mr. Silverback
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To: Mr. Silverback
They were saying that abortion should be legal because children of poor parents would grow up in misery.

Reported cases of child abuse have increased, not decreased since abortion was made legal in this country.

Also, raped women would be too traumatized to carry their children.

Your friends are justifying killing a child because of the manner in which it was conceived. They won't see it this way; they will think you are extremely cruel for even suggesting it. You must get them back to the basics. Tell them you will argue any point after you can both settle on one point. When is a child alive? Not viable, not when can it live outside the mother’s womb, but rather when is it alive. Once you can settle on that, the rest really does fall into place.

Also, teenage girls would have their lives ruined by caring for illegitimate children.

As opposed to ruining the live of the child by killing it? For God's sake, there is a waiting list to adopt children in this country. Again, this is all whitewash until you can settle with them on the issue of when life begins. Again, not viability, or when the child can live outside the womb, but rather just bare basic, scientific definition of life.

They then said that pro-lifers were just cruel and evil.

Tell them they are racist and cruel. Look up Margaret Sanger on a search engine. Then look up stats concern black abortion in this country. It will surprise you. Here are a few links to get you started. . .

http://www.scholarscorner.com/ethics/Anti-Semitism.html
http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gadrs/christian/sanger.html
http://www.theagitator.com/archives/002637.php
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/releases/99facts/21_56t06.pdf
40 posted on 11/26/2002 11:05:00 AM PST by dpa5923
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To: Mr. Silverback
Someone mentioned it in FR, and seeing a TV ad about pets makes me think.

Ask them what should be done with dogs and cats in the shelter. Should they be killed/destroyed, or should they be 'adopted' by loving families/owners.

Then ask them what should be done with babies.

After that, if it gets through their thought-shields, you can watch the reaction as their pro-choice brains overload.

41 posted on 11/26/2002 11:06:09 AM PST by Frohickey
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To: Mr. Silverback
Genetics = Identity

Woman's body or Seperate Identity?

Potentiality or Viability are moot points!

DISTINCTION!
42 posted on 11/26/2002 11:06:34 AM PST by PaxMacian
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To: Mr. Silverback
When abortion is legal:

-There will be fewer children in poverty.
-Every child will be wanted and so there will be no child abuse or neglect.
-Welfare roles will be reduced as there will not be any single mothers.
-Children, knowing they were wanted, will be happier.

Has any of those prophecies heard in the 1970's by pro-abortion forces come true? No. In fact, child abuse is much more prevalent now, single mothers are an epidemic, and there are just as many children in poverty.

Abortion as a social tool has been a dismal failure.

And what about our children? Many kids have asked these questions.

-How many of my classmates were killed by abortion?
-What would have happened if my Mom went through a tough period when she was pregnant with me?
-I wonder if I lost any brothers or sisters to abortion?

Far from making a child view their lives as precious, it shows children that their lives are up to the whim of their mother. How is that comforting?

"Yes, she may care for me know, but what if I had gotten in the way of her career?"

Mentally healthy children indeed.

43 posted on 11/26/2002 11:08:16 AM PST by Anitius Severinus Boethius
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To: Mr. Silverback
If you hope to persuade others the best bet is to find common ground, a common ground that also moves the current situation in the direction you desire. Start by looking at what the effect of overturning Roe v Wade would be. Since most States had legal abortion before Roe v Wade and if opinion has shifted in the intervening years it is now more favorable to maintaining legal abortion. If Roe v Wade is overturned the issue of what is legal and illegal reverts to the State’s legislatures. A handful of States may pass general bans while most would place a few limits on things like late term abortion and require things like parental consent. Some States would make no changes to the current law. It may not accomplish your ultimate goal but it would be an improvement that most voters could support.

Very few people would support a right to abort a healthy 8 or 9 month unborn child, very few people would oppose an abortion in a case where both mother and child will die but an abortion could save the mothers life. Most people are somewhere in the middle and the nuances of opinion don’t lend themselves to Court edicts but are best resolved in the give and take of the Legislative process.

Work on convincing a majority that they have nothing to fear if Roe v Wade is overturned and that letting their State’s legislatures massage a compromise would actually better represent their personal opinions on when abortion is appropriate.
44 posted on 11/26/2002 11:14:46 AM PST by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: Mr. Silverback
Do you think it is my responsibility as a believer, and co-church worker to confront these friends with this issue? I believe "judgment begins at the house of God". I believe the American church will be held just as accountable for all the murdered babies, as I believe the German church will answer for not speaking up when the Jews were being murdered. Even those pro-life Christians who refuse to vote are allowing it to happen. It is so frustrating to me to see American Christians so caught up in playing church, going to parties, etc.. Their excuse for not getting involved in these important issues is they are too busy.
45 posted on 11/26/2002 11:23:54 AM PST by Delphinium
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To: Mr. Silverback
http://www.abortiontv.com/
46 posted on 11/26/2002 11:38:54 AM PST by dredhawk
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To: dredhawk
Good link. thanks for posting it.
47 posted on 11/26/2002 11:55:30 AM PST by dpa5923
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To: Mr. Silverback
Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Isaiah 49:1 :
Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

Galatians 1:15
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Psalm 139:13
For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 :
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 :
My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 :
Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
48 posted on 11/26/2002 11:56:24 AM PST by PaxMacian
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To: Mr. Silverback; Sparta
Show them this.


49 posted on 11/26/2002 12:01:45 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Mr. Silverback
By adopting all of America's children in foster care instead of letting them go to homosexual couples. By telling birthmothers of all races that their children are important and then adopting them.

Marvin Olansky and the Terry Somebody who headed Operation Rescue impressed me because they did put their convictions on the line and have adopted children who really need homes...right here in the US.

50 posted on 11/26/2002 12:03:21 PM PST by mlmr
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