Skip to comments.FReeper Needs Advice: How Can We Better Respond To Pro-Aborts?
Posted on 11/26/2002 9:49:54 AM PST by Mr. Silverback
Sparta graciously gave me permission to post the text of this freepmail, which was sent to me from the "Pro-Life Families Complain About Group's Telemarketing Calls" thread:
This was going to be off topic, so I chose to freepmail you this instead.
I was debating abortion with my friends today. They were saying that abortion should be legal because children of poor parents would grow up in misery. Also, raped women would be too traumatized to carry their children. Also, teenage girls would have their lives ruined by caring for illegitmate children. I said that adoption would give the children a chance for life in the first two situations a better life and I said the teenage girls need to learn how to responsible. They then said that pro-lifers were just cruel and evil. How do I better respond to pro-abortion arguements?
The religious police in Saudi Arabia beat women if they are not covering themselves and men if they are eating during Ramadan! Any stupid foaming at the mouth militant Christian, who is crying over the murder of babies, and would like to force others to stop, is not behaving as Jesus asked us to do; but behaving as Mohamed and his barbarians.
"Cruel and evil, you say? You mean.............my contention that the baby should be given a chance at life is more cruel and evil than ripping him or apart......literally........inside the mama's very womb? Is that what you're saying?"
This has worked for me many, many times when I get the "well, someone has to speak up for women!":
"Maybe...............but who speaks up for the little guy inside mama?"
Stops 'em cold every time.
"You a parent? You are? Can you imagine little [Bobby / Susie] being ripped apart inside your wife's womb? No? Not a pleasant thought, is it?"
"Don't know about you, but my parents' lives weren't all roses all the time, and we never had much money. Life happens, right? No one has the 'perfect, ideal' life for bringing a baby into the world. If that was truly to become a criterion for "allowing" childbirth, can you imagine what would happen to the birthrate around the world? .....and who gets to decide who survives to birth and who doesn't, and what criteria? the mother?? what gives her such God-like insight and authority over another human life?"
"Don't forget that at the very instant of conception, it's no longer just "HER body" we're talking about here."
"Would you advocate killing a baby once it's born? You wouldn't? Then you tell me the difference between that and abortion....outside of a few inches distance. Don't even mention "viability", for the baby is damned viable if you don't rip it apart inside mama. So........tell me the difference."
As for rapes, statistically few women get pregnant under such tramatic experiences and again birth control works. In the case of life of the mother at risk thats the only case where I would side with the pro-choicers. I don't think anyone has a right to ask some else to give their life, we each have to make that choice on our own and let the Lord judge our decision.
People respond in different ways to different messages. One method of communication is scientific, not religious. Discuss the development of the embryo into a a fetus, the fact that all organs, bones, etc are completely formed by week eight and simply need to grow for the next 32 weeks. Use logic -- would the embryo grow into a dog? A frog? An elephant? No, it's only going to be a human baby. It's not going to be anything else. The question is, is it a person?
If the debater says, well the baby isn't viable, it can't survive on its own, you come back with neither can a newborn infant. If you give birth and leave the baby, it will die. A handicapped child or adult often can't survive on his/her own -- should they be killed? A toddler often can't survive on its own -- should they be killed?
It's all a matter of SIZE. Abortion is about big people killing little people simply because they can.
The important thing is to debate with truth and honesty. Abortion is never acceptable because it is the murder of a human person. Once someone accepts that the baby is a human person, and they still think abortion is OK, then they are saying that some human beings have more value than other human beings because of the socioeconomic status, race, etc. That is a form of slavery.
These are just my quick thoughts on the matter. Gotta get back to work! Good luck ... there are many wonderful debaters here on FR who have great advice!
For the rape, ask them why punish the unborn baby with death because his mother was raped.
These questions will drive the debate back to the main issue, which is "What rights does the unborn have" and why doesn't the pro-abort support any of those rights.
They were saying that abortion should be legal because children of poor parents would grow up in misery.
Ask them this: If they took a poll of 1,000 poor kids, how many of them do you think would say, "Yeah, I'd sure rather have been ripped limb from limb and vacuumed up instead of growing up poor."
Also, raped women would be too traumatized to carry their children.
It is a well-known fact that one of the main psychological problems that rape/incest victims go through is having feelings of unjustified guilt. Ask your friends if they really believe that the best way to cope with this psychological trauma is for the woman to kill her child. And it is her child, even if he or she was foisted on her by vile circumstances. You may also want to point out that a tiny percentage of rape victims (1% or so, if memory serves) actually become pregnant. Many rapists fail to ejaculate; rape is, after all, a hate crime in which the weapon of choice is a penis, it is not an act of procreation. You might also ask what other psychological problems or unpleasant emotions justify killing children. Andrea Yates sure was having a rough day...
Also, teenage girls would have their lives ruined by caring for illegitmate children.
See argument for "poor kids being miserable" above. If their best answer to teen promisuity is turning babies into medical waste, they are sick puppies indeed.
They then said that pro-lifers were just cruel and evil.
This is just beyond the pale, and you are perfectly justified asking them for an apology. More to the point, ClearCase_guy put forth the very point you should bring back to them: "Pro-lifers are cruel and evil because they want innocent little children to live. Got it."
Be carefull how you present these arguments. Pray first, and be sensitive to where these folks might be coming from. Women in the group may have this position because they have aborted a child. Most women choose abortion because they are convinced there is no way other out. Granted, that's not an excuse-- my daughter carries the middle name of a woman who sacrificed her life for her "products of conception"--she refused chemo because she would have to abort to take the treatments. Men also tend to defend the pro-coercion side of the question if they helped along an abortion decision in a wife or girlfriend or even just stood aside while she made the call.
Let me also suggest a book called "Who Broke The Baby?" It takes the pro-abort arguments in turn and demolishes them--and I do mean demolish!
For example, my mom used to work for a GP during the 60's and helped make appointments for girls to have abortions in our neighboring state where it was legal. She will never ever admit that the child is alive until it draws its first breath (she believes this is when the soul enters). when its pointed out she has no religious basis or physical basis to support this view she uses circular logic to avoid the obvious conclusion. I firmly believe she cannot ever accept that what she did was aiding the death of the unborn. It would be too horrible to accept. Therefore, its not possible to convert her in debate.
If the quotes in the first two articles, the facts in the third article, and the logic and reason of the fourth article do no change their minds, they are beyond hope.
For one thing, don't call them "pro-aborts" like Mr. Silverbeck did. :-)
I don't have any other suggestions other than try not to put the other person on the defensive. That usually makes them more prone to defending their own positions rather than listening to yours.
There is a FReeper with that handle.
Do you believe as I do that something must be wrong in the heart? If one is truly born again, how could they take this stand?
I think it's more that something is missing in the mind, since to be compassionate to someone you must have at least a basic grasp of their circumstances. After I was born-again I was still a pro-choicer for years. Of course, I was young and stupid, this man doesn't have that excuse, plus he is a teacher, from whom more is required by God. I changed sides when I found out more about fetal development. He needs to be confronted with the reality of these procedures...there are no circumstances under which Christ would advocate ripping a little kid into fetal cutlets and throwing her in the trash.