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Why Are Black Students Lagging?
New York Times | 11/29/02 | FELICIA R. LEE

Posted on 11/29/2002 11:31:28 PM PST by kattracks


The persistent academic gap between white and black students has touched off difficult and often ugly debates over the question why. Are racist stereotypes to blame? Substandard schools? Cultural attitudes?

This long-running argument may bubble up again next year with the arrival of a book that argues minority communities themselves contribute to student failure.

The book, "Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement" (Lawrence Erlbaum Associates), is by John U. Ogbu, an anthropology professor at the University of California at Berkeley and a well-known figure in the field of student achievement for more than three decades. Indeed, it was Mr. Ogbu's research that popularized the phrase "acting white" in the mid-1980's to help explain why black students might disdain behaviors associated with high achievement, like speaking standard grammatical English.

Now Mr. Ogbu is back, arguing with renewed fervor that his most recent research shows that African-Americans' own cultural attitudes are a serious problem that is too often neglected.

"No matter how you reform schools, it's not going to solve the problem," he said in an interview. "There are two parts of the problem, society and schools on one hand and the black community on the other hand."

Professor Ogbu's latest conclusions are highlighted in a study of blacks in Shaker Heights, Ohio, an affluent Cleveland suburb whose school district is equally divided between blacks and whites. As in many racially integrated school districts, the black students have lagged behind whites in grade-point averages, test scores and placement in high-level classes. Professor Ogbu was invited by black parents in 1997 to examine the district's 5,000 students to figure out why.

"What amazed me is that these kids who come from homes of doctors and lawyers are not thinking like their parents; they don't know how their parents made it," Professor Ogbu said in an interview. "They are looking at rappers in ghettos as their role models, they are looking at entertainers. The parents work two jobs, three jobs, to give their children everything, but they are not guiding their children."

For example, he said that middle-class black parents in general spent no more time on homework or tracking their children's schooling than poor white parents. And he said that while black students talked in detail about what efforts were needed to get an A and about their desire to achieve, too many nonetheless failed to put forth that effort.

Those kinds of attitudes reflect a long history of adapting to oppression and stymied opportunities, said Professor Ogbu, a Nigerian immigrant who has written that involuntary black immigrants behave like low-status minorities in other societies.

Not surprisingly, he said, the parents were disappointed when he turned the spotlight on them as well as the schools. Peggy Caldwell, a spokeswoman for the Shaker Heights City School District, said that minority families cared deeply about their children's academic achievement and the district was working with education experts to reduce the racial achievement gap. She noted that while Professor Ogbu called most of the black families in the district middle class, 10 to 12 percent live in poverty.

Also not surprisingly, many researchers take issue with some of Professor Ogbu's latest findings.

"When we asked if friends made fun of kids who do well in school, we don't find any racial difference in that," said Ronald F. Ferguson, a senior research associate at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard who analyzed a new study of 40,000 middle and high school students in 15 middle class school districts, including Shaker Heights.

Indeed, the study, which was administered by the Minority Student Achievement Network, an organization that explores ways to close the racial achievement gap, found that African-American and Latino students work as hard and care as much about school as white and Asian students do.

Mr. Ferguson said that while minorities lag behind whites in things like homework completion, it is wrong to infer that they aren't interested in school. "High achievers are more often accused of acting white than low achievers, but it's because the low achievers suspect the high achievers believe they are superior."

"It's things like talking too properly when you're in informal social settings," he continued. "It's hanging around white friends and acting like you don't want to be with your black friends. It's really about behavior patterns and not achievement."

Mr. Ferguson speculated that what Professor Ogbu saw was a clumsy attempt by black students to search for a comfortable racial identity. "What does it mean to be black?" he said. "What does it mean to be white? The community needs to help kids make sense of their own identity."

"I would agree with Ogbu that there are youth cultural patterns and behaviors that are counterproductive for academic success," he went on, mentioning socializing in class and spending too much time watching television. "But when they engage in those behaviors, they are not purposely avoiding academic success."

Other researchers have zeroed in on other culprits, whether inferior schools, lower teacher expectations, impoverished family backgrounds or some combination.

Theories of black intellectual inferiority, too, have popped up from the 1781 publication of Thomas Jefferson's "Notes on the State of Virginia" to "The Bell Curve" in 1994 and beyond. Given that sensitivity and the implications for policies like school desegregation and affirmative action, virtually every aspect of the academic gap has been examined.

Where Professor Ogbu found that some middle class blacks were clueless about their children's academic life, for example, Roslyn Arlin Mickelson, a sociology professor at the University of North Carolina, instead concluded that such parents were often excluded from the informal networks that white parents use for information about courses, gifted programs and testing. "I believe, based on my own research, that the center of gravity lies with the school system," she said.

Claude Steele, a Stanford University psychologist, meanwhile, has hypothesized that black students are responding to the fear of confirming lowered expectations.

And Walter R. Allen, a professor of sociology at the University of California at Los Angeles, said that even when racial minorities and whites attended the same schools, they could have radically different experiences because of tracking and teacher expectations.

Professor Allen is conducting a long-term project on college access for African-American and Latino high school students in California. In his view, black students sometimes underperform because of subtle exchanges with teachers who convey the message that they find the students inferior or frightening. And, he said, minority schools still overwhelmingly lack good teachers and adequate teaching tools.

He also pointed out that comparing the income level of black and white families, as Professor Ogbu did with his Midwestern subjects, can be misleading. Black incomes might be derived from two-career families juggling several jobs compared with a single breadwinner in white households.

Professor Ogbu is no stranger to controversy. His theory of "acting white" has been the subject of intense study since he first wrote about it in the mid-80's with Signithia Fordham, then a graduate student and now a professor of anthropology at the University of Rochester. They studied an inner-city Washington high school where students listed doing well in school among the "white" behaviors they rejected, like visiting the Smithsonian and dancing to lyrics rather than a beat.

The two anthropologists theorized that a long history of discrimination helped foster what is known in sociological lingo as an oppositional peer culture. Not only were students resisting the notion that white behavior was superior to their own, but they also saw no connection between good grades and finding a job.

Many scholars who have disputed those findings rely on a continuing survey of about 17,000 nationally representative students, which is conducted by the National Center for Education Statistics, an arm of the federal government. This self-reported survey shows that black students actually have more favorable attitudes than whites toward education, hard work and effort.

But that has by no means settled the debate. In the February issue of the American Sociological Review, for example, scholars who tackled the subject came to opposite conclusions. One article (by three scholars) said that the government data were not reliable because there was often a gap between what students say and what they do; another article by two others said they found that high-achieving black students were especially popular among their peers.

"It's difficult to determine what's going on," said Vincent J. Roscigno, a professor of sociology at Ohio State University who has studied racial differences in achievement. "`I'm sort of split on Ogbu. It's hard to compare a case analysis to a nationally representative statistical analysis. I do have a hunch that rural white poor kids are doing the same thing as poor black kids. I'm tentative about saying it's race-based."

Indeed, Professor Mickelson of the University of North Carolina found that working class whites as well as middle-class blacks were more apt to believe that doing well in school compromised their identity.

All these years later, Professor Fordham said, she fears that the acting-white idea has been distorted into blaming the victim. She said she wanted to advance the debate by looking at how race itself was a social fiction, rooted not just in skin color but also in behaviors and social status.

"Black kids don't get validation and are seen as trespassing when they exceed academic expectations," Professor Fordham said, echoing her initial research. "The kids turn on it, they sacrifice their spots in gifted and talented classes to belong to a group where they feel good."



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To: All
I looked up a table on normal distributions, so I need to correct those last figures, as I was confusing location at either end of the bell-shaped curve with location at one end of it. IQ of 100 or above represents above the average for whites, one standard deviation above the average for blacks: this is 50% of whites, 16% of blacks. IQ of 115 or above represents one standard deviation above the average for whites, two standard deviations for blacks: this is 16% of whites, and 2.3% of blacks. IQ of 130 represents two standard deviations above the average for whites, three standard deviations for blacks: this is 2.3% of whites, 0.13% of blacks.
101 posted on 11/30/2002 2:56:50 PM PST by aristeides
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To: All
And if what I have read about Asians in America being a half a standard deviation above whites on IQ is correct, then the equivalent figures for them are as follows: IQ above 100, 69%; IQ above 115, 31%; IQ above 130, 7%.
102 posted on 11/30/2002 3:05:19 PM PST by aristeides
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To: quebecois
The "root cause" of this disparity is IQ. That my seem unpalatable to some, but the science is there.

Of course science also never said that IQ is 100% genetic. Early childhood learning and other cultural influences have a role in IQ, also maternal health ---no drug/alcohol use etc, and family environment are big factors in IQ development.

103 posted on 11/30/2002 3:09:10 PM PST by FITZ
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To: FITZ
And lead exposure is a big one.
104 posted on 11/30/2002 3:10:32 PM PST by FITZ
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To: collectingdust
Asians average IQ (115), Whites (100), American Blacks (85--given that most American blacks have approximately 20% White inheritance), and African Blacks (70--and 70 is borderline retarded). Given our relatively open economic and politial system, those with higher IQs cannot help but do better in wealth, education, etc. What more need be said? Why more money wasted? How many more white children must be sacrificed needlessly in forcefully segregated schools?

My, what a novel take on the subject. You rely entirely too much on 'givens', without substantiation of just how they are either defined or have developed over time.

The foundation of this entire boondoggle is the assumption that categories in use are possible, much less accurate and therefore useful for analysis. I assert that the existence or non existence of genetically determined human races cannot be demonstrated at this point in time. There are certain characteristics that are genetically inherited including skin colour, hair type and others, although no one characteristic is restricted to any one race or group. Skin colour is inherited, and yet at present we cannot show where this is determined in the human genome, therefore our knowledge is inadequate to prove or disprove that genetic races even exist.

Since the 60's with the research of Arthur Jensen (from Berkeley BTW), studies have shown that regardless of Headstart, new Schools, better teachers, even socio-economics, etc. etc. etc., blacks will dramatically do worse than Whites. It cannot be avoided.

On what basis do you justify extrapolating that conclusion from limited data over roughly 30 years?

Just think of the tens of billions wasted in these thirty plus years, and that ignores the damage done to white children exposed to all of this nonsense.

What damage? Please be very specific.

The answer, of course, was to have been honest with blacks from the start, reduced prejudice, opened up society so that Blacks could have traveled freely, and worked as migrant rural workers or a similar servant class throughout the sourth and west instead of what actually happened--blacks concetrating in northern urban squalor, and the introduction of a whole different third race into this country--Indians from Mexico.

Why would you assume that blacks would have travelled the country in search of menial jobs? If, as you put it, society had been opened up, educational opportunites available to white children would have also have been there for black children.

Your 'theory' doesn't address the potential that instead of living in norther urban squalor, they could instead have lived in squalor in urban areas other than in the north, or perhaps in rural squalor. Nor does it recognize that they moved to northern cities as specific times to work jobs in the very categories you cite, and it ignores that they left the south for the jobs in the north to make a better life for themselves than they believed they could have in the south.

In the end, of course, the rise of the Indians from Mexico to more than a third of the US's population in the next 50 years will make completely irrelevant the black race in the US, and White people's inability or design in failing to tell blacks the truth will be largely responsible for that.

Riiiiiight. One can't help but notice all those Tarahumaras and Ixcatecos virtually overrunning the entire nation.

Why if your mathematical abilites are anywhere near as good as your acute observations, I'll bet they could black citizens irrelevant in half that time. /sarcasm.

If I were black in the US, of course, I'd move back to Africa, and I'd use white guilt in the US to finance all of it.

If your obvious manufactured cocern for the welfare of blacks were any more transparent, you'd be pane glass.

Most importantly, in Africa, I wouldn't be 'black', I'd be 'colored' given my 20% white ancestry, and consequently I'd immediately rise to the top of the socio/political/economic class.

You don't know what you're talking about. You'd only be 'colored' in apartheid South Africa, Einstein, and they aren't the top of any of those classes. Elsewhere you'd be misunderstood and not anything of particular note, as many black citizens have found when visiting Africa.

Instead of living in some urban hell-hole in Detroit or D.C. I'd be running a factory in some small town or I'd be in the open air on some farm with dozens of natives working for me.

Your ignorance of Africa and social/cultural dynamics is astounding and, sadly, not unexpected.

Tell me, do you recommend to white citizens in poor urban areas to return to the European country of their heritage, at taxpayer cost?

106 posted on 11/30/2002 3:11:14 PM PST by Pahuanui
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To: kattracks
Could well known or prominent successful blacks calling Colin Powell and Condi Rice black house slaves have anything to do with student's attitudes?
107 posted on 11/30/2002 3:11:18 PM PST by wingnuts'nbolts
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To: johnny7
Unless I'm mistaken you stated that someone who replied to me was blowing smoke out of their arse. I asked you about it because her story about her childhood and my circumstances were very similar. In other words her story seem plausible to me but you don't seem to believe it so I asked you why you thought it was BS.


As for my cherrios comment, you seemed rather testy about the whole thing.

Perhaps I'm mistaken.
109 posted on 11/30/2002 3:15:11 PM PST by Fzob
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To: monocle
"lack of self-discipline = failure at school"

Lack of self discipline = 80% Bastardy Rate

110 posted on 11/30/2002 3:15:38 PM PST by litehaus
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To: kattracks
What amazed me is that these kids who come from homes of doctors and lawyers are not thinking like their parents; they don't know how their parents made it,"

Are they comparing non-Affirmative Action homes with other non-Affirmative Action homes? It wouldn't be quite fair to compare whites whose parents didn't benefit from AA with blacks whose parents did. I wonder what would happen if you compared only those who completely made it on their own ---maybe children of military parents.

111 posted on 11/30/2002 3:19:51 PM PST by FITZ
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To: collectingdust
where upper-middle-class whites adopt black babies.

But even there you don't rule out prenatal influences ---and the fact that the babies were put up for adoption would imply there was a likelihood of some prenatal factor that made the natural mother less capable of raising their baby.

112 posted on 11/30/2002 3:22:03 PM PST by FITZ
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To: collectingdust
I've seen a couple examples first hand where white children whose biological mothers were excessive drinkers/drug users and were adopted into middle and upper middle class homes and they also did not do as well as other adopted siblings or natural born children to those same families. Romanian orphans would be a good example ---they also do not do as well because of early influences. I wonder if there's ever been any study where all factors were considered?
113 posted on 11/30/2002 3:25:00 PM PST by FITZ
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To: Fzob
As I kid I never thought what does it mean to be white. Amen

When I grew up, there were individualists and rugged individualists. I was raised with the idea that I must read and interpret the Bible for myself; that I should never trust other's interpretation. Max Weber referred to this in the Spirit of Capitalism.

I was oblivious to role models. The question was: What did God want me to be, and to do? I see a small number of my Black neighbors raising their kids exactly the same way. The pre-school kid is reading the King James Bible just as I did. Some Korean families near me also have that personal salvation and reading the Bible for ones self approach.

I see some Sikhs and Moslems raising their kids the same way. They are just using a different book. Maybe for others, the motivation is money and power, not religion.

Conclusion: A religious revival/awakening might be the solution. I'd like to see a study of the MillionMan March and PromiseKeepers (two arms of the same movement). A PromiseKeepers style religious conversion to personal responsibility might just be the answer to our social problems.

115 posted on 11/30/2002 5:20:17 PM PST by spintreebob
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To: AllSmiles
"Sowell is a smart, positively adapted guy. Had he wanted to be an air traffic controler, he'd have started five points up over me."


Don't take this personally but your post is BS!

Sowell is a lot older than he looks. When he came up there was no affirmative action. Actually it worked sort of the reverse of the way it is now. His generation had to meet a standard that was higher, not lower.
116 posted on 11/30/2002 5:31:31 PM PST by SBprone
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To: SBprone
And he's still meeting a higher standard!
117 posted on 11/30/2002 5:32:16 PM PST by SBprone
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To: mhking
"Pop culture has created a generation of "feel-good slackers" who do as they please."

Pop culture as in irresponsible elements of the music and movie industry who have chosen to market the most violent and criminal elements of black culture.There are many hip-hop artists who realise this and are trying to put out positive material with an intent on having good influences on their communitys.These are the real community voices,not the gangsters who are capitalizing on misery.
I feel human potential is related to how it's nurtured and to say any race of people has more potential than another is simply hogwash put forth by people who want to reinforce the virtues of their own race.

118 posted on 11/30/2002 5:58:48 PM PST by Rocksalt
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To: AllSmiles
OK. Guess why.
120 posted on 11/30/2002 7:50:05 PM PST by SBprone
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To: superdestroyer
http://osr.berkeley.edu/Public/Staffweb/KW/sat.percentiles/Admits/satadmits3.html

Whthout knowing the entrance criteria its hard to tell, but this link showing admitted students SAT scores sure indicates that quotas are alive and well.

123 posted on 12/01/2002 5:00:09 AM PST by Fzob
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To: superdestroyer
If you look at black history you will not find much in the way of intellectual activities. Less than 25% of blacks were even high school graduates as late as 1950. those are the grand parents and great grand parents of today. Whatever the cause of anti-intellectualism is, it is separate from victimization.

I don't know what statistic you're citing, but those numbers were much, much higher in urban areas. As early as World War I, high school graduation numbers among blacks skyrocketed, as the older generations pushed for their youth - especially the girls - to go to school and get an education.

Three of my four grandparents are high school graduates - the fourth, my paternal grandfather, became a master carpenter; both of my grandmothers are college graduates. If you talk to many, those graduation rates will increase dramatically prior to Depression, then taper off again, but increasing dramatically once again during the second World War.

As I said, the higher rates were in cities. In the country, the emphasis may have been there, but it may not have been pushed as much, with youngsters choosing to become farmers or tradesmen.

126 posted on 12/01/2002 5:34:54 AM PST by mhking
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To: superdestroyer
and you can tell that there not much of a quota.

Is there a quota system is isn't there one? To me the numbers show there is still some type of quota systems in place. The number of ball players and the like just can't account for the difference in SAT scores.

BTW, IMO SAT scores are not the be all and end all to indicate ones potential. If a college whats to give substandard students a chance on the students dime, I could not care less. It's when the under-performer gets a passing grade because of the fear of being accused of racism while insisting I pay for it in taxes that grate on my nerves.

127 posted on 12/01/2002 5:43:52 AM PST by Fzob
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To: Mr. Jeeves
I had an English prof at IUP who said on the first day that we were there to work and expect to work very hard...essays, essays, essays. Unfortunately every book on his book list was about the victimization of blacks and slavery and Marxism...

I got out of there.

128 posted on 12/01/2002 6:06:27 AM PST by Benrand
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To: AllSmiles
You didn't refute my statements about Sowell, you just issued a personal attack based on my alleged shortage of IQ points. Does that MO remind you of anybody? A certain political party perhaps?

I'm sorry my comments provoked your outburst. But I'm not the only one around here who will comment if you call Dr. Sowell a beneficiary of affirmative action.

131 posted on 12/01/2002 6:40:16 AM PST by SBprone
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To: superdestroyer
Look it up yourself

I"m not going to get into a pissing match about the statistics. I'm speaking, based on personal experience.

Let's get back to the original point: you refuse to accept that popular culture is responsible for the lagging of black students today. I don't accept the notion that because numbers were lower historically that it is reflected today.

Today it is accepted, thanks to the poverty pimps (as well as to popular culture), to use excuses as a reason not to go to school and excel. The best way, IMO, to address this problem is to work to eliminate and marginalize the negative influences that cause this.

132 posted on 12/01/2002 6:54:05 AM PST by mhking
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To: superdestroyer
But the academic problem today for black Americans has to do more with what is going on at home than what has happened at school.

Go back and re-read my original posts. My point is that parental and family involvement is key. Today's youth have substituted peer culture and involvement for traditional family involvement. Traditional family involvement points toward generational advancement.

As I mentioned, my grandfather never attended college. My father did his undergrad work at Central State in Ohio. His grad work was at Purdue. I started at Purdue and went on to Howard. I don't feel that I'm any worse off than white students.

If parents don't take the time to get involved, then you're right. The students will be behind. But my parents took the time to take us to plays; to museums; to concerts. My wife and I do the same with our children.

It's obvious from your "biggest argument" statement that we are on the same page. But we disagree in terms of what the older generations continue to emphasize.

134 posted on 12/01/2002 7:23:27 AM PST by mhking
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To: superdestroyer
Go back and reread the table you cited. It is the scores of the applicants, not those admitted.

Whoops, wrong table, sorry. Here is the admission table. The median admission score for blacks is 210 points lower than the median white score (estimated by taking the midpoints of the ranges), versus a 245-point spread for the applications, which is still pretty significant

136 posted on 12/01/2002 8:23:10 AM PST by SauronOfMordor
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To: superdestroyer
The problem that has been shown over and over again is that black culture, outside of school, is anti-intellectual.

White/Asian children can easily outdistance black children because, on average, their parents spend more time, money, and effort giving their children a life experience that includes intellectual activites.

Your statement is not far off the mark, but you've excluded the segment of Black culture that mostly prefers to patronize Black bookstores and attend Black musical and theatrical events. Plenty of these folks will go see things "The Nutcraker" or attend the "main" symphony orchestra, ballet, etc., but they also like culture that reflects who they are.

137 posted on 12/01/2002 8:41:28 AM PST by mafree
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To: collectingdust
Absolutely, one never realizes their genetic IQ potential without favorable environmental factors--but there's a ceiling to that genetic IQ potential that cannot be overcome no matter what the environment.

Or more precisely, genetics will determine how much effort and resources will be needed to achieve a particular IQ, with the curve rising steeply past a point.

Now, while favorable environments can increase IQ, severely unfavorable environments (eq, malnuitrition or exposure to drugs or other substances which result in brain damage) can decrease IQ. But as the bottom-line environment for the worst-off gets better, past a threshold, we should be seeing less of this effect. The exception (and it gets bigger every year) would be for the kids that we deliberately drug into stupors in school to make them more manageable

138 posted on 12/01/2002 8:46:26 AM PST by SauronOfMordor
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To: collectingdust
aristedes wrote:
"IQ of 115 or above represents one standard deviation above the average for whites, two standard deviations for blacks: this is 16% of whites, and 2.3% of blacks. IQ of 130 represents two standard deviations above the average for whites, three standard deviations for blacks: this is 2.3% of whites, 0.13% of blacks."

and collectingdust replied:
And this is the critical level at which all of the institutions (cultural, political, economic, legal) we hold dear are created and preserved. Labor can be found in mass wherever you look, but the engineers, doctors, scientists, writers, etc., occur at the high end of the IQ curve. If, in total, only 2.313% of blacks in the US are capable of achievement at the elite level (vs. 16.3% of whites), then so be it, and let's not kill ourselves, financially and morally, trying to change what can't be changed.

Fishrrman speaks:
VERY astute comment, collecting, regarding the "threshold" of [elite] group intelligence which is required so that "institutions (cultural, political, economic, legal) we hold dear are created and preserved".

At the risk of being thrown off this board, I contend that being "below this threshold" is why black Africa was never able to progress culturally beyond the tribal level -- UNTIL they had contact with cultures from beyond their continent. No doubt there were highly intelligent African tribesmen (the Bell Curve would account for as much), but their numbers were so small, and the culture they were born into so backward, that specific individuals couldn't make a "forward contribution" that would endure from one generation to the next.

Such "forward progress" as may have been made in Africa came ONLY after being "imposed" by European colonizers. And what happens when the Europeans leave, or are forced out? One needs only to look to the devolution of civilization in Zimbabwe for the answer.

I would contend that -- if Sub-Saharan Africa had never had _any_ contact with the outside world, they would be living today in virtually the same culture that they had in the year 1200 A.D. -- to wit, that of African tribespeople. Who would argue otherwise?

I would also contend that -- if Europeans had never had _any_ contact with Africa, European Judeo/Christian culture would have continued to progress pretty much the same as it has through the centuries. Who would argue otherwise?

There is indeed "an elephant in the room" that few are willing to consider re the continual "lagging" of the overall "group achievements" vis-a-vis whites and blacks in America. This invisible elephant is why over a billion dollars could be spent on inner-city schools in Kansas City (where a federal judge took the unusual step that property taxes could be raised to cover the cost), with almost NO improvement on minority achievement test scores. It is why, following one attempt after another, every one of which ends in failure, the "experts" throw up their hands and blame the failures of blacks to "achieve" -- either at the student or employment level -- on either "inadequate funding" or "white racism".

Guess they don't -- or won't -- see that elephant in the room.

As Thomas Jefferson wrote, "There is not a truth existing which I fear or would wish unknown to the whole world". We are supposed to be conservatives, seeking and accepting of the truth, even when those truths are unpleasant and unpalatable.

When will _we_ begin to speak openly about the elephant?

Cheers!
- John

139 posted on 12/01/2002 9:51:29 AM PST by Fishrrman
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To: Fishrrman
At the risk of being thrown off this board, I contend that being "below this threshold" is why black Africa was never able to progress culturally beyond the tribal level -- UNTIL they had contact with cultures from beyond their continent.

So you've never heard of the Ghana, Mali or Songhay Empires?

140 posted on 12/01/2002 10:16:08 AM PST by Pahuanui
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To: johnny7
Please don't take this personally but you're blowing smoke out of your ass.

I do not, because I don't see your point. I stated that I cannot accept the old "poverty" excuse because my personal experience directly contradicts this excuse. Are you saying that I should place more weight on a study than what I myself have lived, or are you saying that I am lying about my origins?

143 posted on 12/01/2002 12:40:25 PM PST by demosthenes the elder
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To: Fzob
other than the gender error, I thank you for your correct defense of my post.
144 posted on 12/01/2002 12:43:56 PM PST by demosthenes the elder
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Comment #145 Removed by Moderator

To: demosthenes the elder
Sorry about the gender mistake. I have no idea why I thought you were a her.

Regards
146 posted on 12/01/2002 1:57:27 PM PST by Fzob
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To: spintreebob
Printed on my mother's fourth grade report card was "Every Catholic Child in a Catholic School". The atmosphere was no-nonsense, do your work and learn. The religous studies expanded vocabularies and thought process to include other than social contemporary exchange of thoughts. She absorbed a sense of patriotism, ethics, charity thru personal application of effort (she had no money to buy off responsibility to others). The teachers at that time saw teaching as a vocation, not a career. They were doing God's work to educate children and steer them towards heaven. Judge Clarence Thomas was sent to a catholic school by his grandparents for all of the above reasons. It does seem that children who attend church run schools have an advantage over secular schools, regardless of race. We can speculate endlessly on the IQ theories, but parents of all races who want the best for their children will find a way to educate them in a non-government school. My parents did it for me and I will do so for my children. Vouchers are the answer for non-discriminate school selection.
147 posted on 12/01/2002 3:06:17 PM PST by dasein64
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To: collectingdust
" Africa had no written language before the white man, no wheel, NOTHING approaching civilization ANYWHERE, let alone culture or contributions to science, literature, NOTHING."

Is that true? What about the Ethiopian Orthodox church-isn't their bible one of the oldest religious writings and their churchs some of the oldest known?
148 posted on 12/01/2002 4:57:52 PM PST by Rocksalt
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Comment #149 Removed by Moderator

To: BurkeCalhounDabney
re your # 2

Better question:

Why are too few white people starters in professional basketball?...

Are they being discriminated against or is it simply another genetic situation of a reasonable and fair determination of intellect and physical capability....person by person?

150 posted on 12/01/2002 5:22:18 PM PST by rmvh
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