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Old And In The Way (Decline and Fall of Europe)
American Enterprise Magazine ^ | December 2002 | Karl Zinsmeister

Posted on 12/04/2002 1:37:10 AM PST by tictoc

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1 posted on 12/04/2002 1:37:10 AM PST by tictoc
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To: tictoc
Best article I've read in a LONG time.
Karl is wicked good!
2 posted on 12/04/2002 1:56:19 AM PST by dasboot
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To: tictoc
This is the vaccume that Islam is moving into. The near future of mankind is not a pretty picture for our Nation is sliding into a self serving mode too. As we abandon morals for a free xxxx society, the load on the remaining workers increases until the roof falls in.

Great post, thanks
3 posted on 12/04/2002 2:15:56 AM PST by American in Israel
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To: tictoc
This is a GREAT post! Thank you so much. I wish that this would get huge play in the US. It counters everything that the NYT and other media "bigs" try to tell us about ourselves. We Americans should be proud of ourselves and not ashamed, as our media would have us believe.
4 posted on 12/04/2002 2:37:06 AM PST by patj
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To: tictoc
Excellent article. Thank you for posting it.

Europe doesn't seem to have a clue to what is rapidly happening to it.

I don't fear the EU simply because it is a destructive economic force, not a constructive one. Their ability to compete is falling, not growing.
5 posted on 12/04/2002 2:53:23 AM PST by DB
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To: tictoc
Splendid article. I do have a couple of factors to bring up that Karl seems to have overlooked.

1.
Near the end of the piece he talks of new world alliances, in particular where the US will have to look for strategic partnerships (as he points out, certainly not "EU"rope). But he fails to mention, unless I blanked out while reading the piece, Russia. In the Western World, it has the best chance of being an economically and socially dynamic democracy, one with which we can make increasingly common cause.

Ironically, Russia standing on the outside of NATO serves this purpose; because it may become necessary, in the face of increasing EU hostility and interference, to abandon NATO and let the deluded Euroweenies take on their own defense. (A good start will be when we pull our forces out of Germany, something that must be done as soon as we can secure alternative facilities, e.g. in CIS states.) Since Russia's not a member, they won't have to go through the possibly tortuous process of pulling out, and it will be easier for us to forge a 'post-NATO' relationship with the only military power in Europe that will really count.

Of course the Russian/CIS connection is in addition to Asian alliances. We all know there may unfortunately be Hell to pay in that region; but perhaps the political and economic difficulties with the big players there (read: China and Japan, respectively) will pass, or at least abate to where they do not blow up world affairs. Or the World <)B^(.

2.
Karl makes illuminating points about the changing demographics of the EU states. But he doesn't use the "I" word, and to me this is the elephant in the powder room.

EU politicians are already afraid of their Islamist populations, and as the 'anglo' population declines, the politicians will become ever more pusillanimously deferential to the Islamic Mob. We're talking about a resurgence of brown-shirtism here, and it has the same potential for wrecking what's left of Western Civ on the Continent.

And, as in 1933, we Americans will not be able to remain aloof. Indeed, as some have said, in historical implications 9/11 in some ways resembles Pearl Harbor; in other ways, Krystallnacht or the burning of the Reichstag.

3.
One final comment. The UK is at one of the great crossroads of her history. She's going to have to choose between EUrope and America. Which way she chooses determines her future, if she is to have one.

6 posted on 12/04/2002 2:54:44 AM PST by Erasmus
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To: All; knighthawk
Three webloggers weigh in with their own thoughts on the article. All have good points to make.

Steven Den Beste I

Steven Den Beste II

Eric S. Raymond

Dilacerator (from The Netherlands)

7 posted on 12/04/2002 3:11:08 AM PST by tictoc
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To: tictoc
This one MUST BE BTTT!
8 posted on 12/04/2002 5:29:58 AM PST by DB
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To: tictoc
bookmarked ... and BTTT
9 posted on 12/04/2002 5:49:08 AM PST by BlueLancer
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To: Heuristic Hiker
Interesting article on the future of Europe.
10 posted on 12/04/2002 10:47:27 AM PST by Utah Girl
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To: tictoc
Old And In The Way
Lyrics: David Grisman
Music: David Grisman


Chorus
Old and in the way, that's what I heard them say
They used to heed the words he said, but that was yesterday
Gold will turn to gray and youth will fade away
They'll never care about you, call you old and in the way

Once I hear tell, he was happy
He had his share of friends and good times
Now, those friends have all passed on
He don't have a place called home
Looking back to a better day, feeling old and in the way

[chorus]

When just a boy, he left his home
Thought he'd have the world on a string
Now the years have come and gone
Through the streets he walks alone
Like the old dog gone astray, he's just old and in the way

[chorus]
[chorus]

Recordings

8 Oct 1973 Old And In The Way

11 posted on 12/04/2002 10:57:23 AM PST by Diverdogz
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To: tictoc
A long read. Thanks for the ping and BUMP!
12 posted on 12/04/2002 11:16:29 AM PST by knighthawk
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To: tictoc
BUMP
13 posted on 12/04/2002 1:50:06 PM PST by uglybiker
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To: tictoc
bump
Wonderful analogy, I totally agree
14 posted on 12/04/2002 2:22:01 PM PST by americanbychoice
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To: tictoc
An interisting article

PING
15 posted on 12/04/2002 2:42:33 PM PST by NathanR
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To: tictoc
Very interesting. Thanks for posting.
16 posted on 12/04/2002 4:06:05 PM PST by sunshine state
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To: Diverdogz
I like the lyrics.

David Grisman... the name rings a distant bell... popular bluegrass music?
17 posted on 12/04/2002 11:15:11 PM PST by tictoc
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To: Sidebar Moderator
Is there a chance of keeping this up in "Foreign Affairs"?
18 posted on 12/04/2002 11:56:09 PM PST by tictoc
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To: tictoc
You got it. He's a top notch mandolin player who plays bluegrass and jazz. He often collaborated with former Grateful Dead guitarist Jerry Garcia.
19 posted on 12/05/2002 3:55:27 AM PST by Diverdogz
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To: tictoc
Bump
20 posted on 12/06/2002 2:55:36 AM PST by tictoc
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To: tictoc
Bump for future read.
21 posted on 04/05/2003 4:34:01 PM PST by meyer (how do I turn this thing off?)
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To: tictoc
He insisted the seemingly mighty U.S. military was now a hollow force, all flash and no substance.

Someone find this jerkoff's email address. Let's have him back this up NOW.

22 posted on 04/05/2003 4:42:37 PM PST by Timesink (When was the last time YOU remembered we're on Code Orange?)
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To: Timesink
Yes, I too would like to see him eat his words!

Prof. Dr. Reiner Pommerin

pommerin@rcs.urz.tu-dresden.de

23 posted on 04/05/2003 5:00:06 PM PST by tictoc
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To: tictoc
And to think the Democraps in California want make that state's economy and government more "statist" like Europe. These people have to learn everything the hard way!
24 posted on 04/05/2003 5:09:22 PM PST by rimmont
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To: tictoc
At European tax levels, it is impossible to have a large family and maintain a middle-class standard of living, so middle-class couples don't have kids.

Conversely, the Welfare State will subsidize an unlimited number of kids at a "welfare-class" standard of living.

The problem with this is what happens when things break down, there aren't enough middle-class taxpayers to support the welfare-class tax-consumers, and the welfare checks don't come one week

25 posted on 04/05/2003 5:09:36 PM PST by SauronOfMordor (Heavily armed, easily bored, and off my medication)
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To: tictoc
Saving Europe from the Nazis was just a temporary fix for a continent that is and was, bent on self destruction anyway.
26 posted on 04/05/2003 5:13:51 PM PST by rimmont
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To: Diverdogz
IMHO, "Old And In The Way" is one of the finest albums every made.
27 posted on 04/05/2003 5:16:35 PM PST by Fzob (Why does this tag line keep showing up?)
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To: tictoc
"After half a century under the American umbrella, West Europeans have come to believe that their freedom is self-generated. It is by now, they feel, a simple birthright, as natural as the air they breathe. -Exactly, but what will it take to open their eyes?
28 posted on 04/05/2003 5:55:40 PM PST by rimmont
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To: Fzob
Dont Ya hate it when they call us hippies??

I too just luv that music.

29 posted on 04/05/2003 7:15:56 PM PST by mylife
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To: Erasmus
"One final comment. The UK is at one of the great crossroads of her history. She's going to have to choose between EUrope and America. Which way she chooses determines her future, if she is to have one."

Amen. And may she make the right choice.

30 posted on 04/05/2003 7:53:32 PM PST by okie01 (The Mainstream Media: IGNORANCE ON PARADE.)
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To: tictoc; Erasmus; knighthawk
<< And it is by no means just the Germans who are exhibiting hostility toward the U.S.

Even Britain, our supposed "special partner" in Europe, has gotten thoroughly swept up in the resentment game.

I happened to be in London on America's Independence Day this year, and opened the English newspapers to find headlines like this one in the Daily Mirror--"Mourn on the Fourth of July: The USA is now the world's leading rogue state."

Chelsea Clinton, currently pursuing a master's degree at Oxford, and hardly a rabid flag-waver, wrote an article shortly after September 11 complaining that "Every day I encounter some sort of anti-American feeling. Sometimes it's from other students, sometimes it's from a newspaper columnist, sometimes it's from 'peace' demonstrators."

Despite Tony Blair .... more Britons say in the latest polls that they disapprove of America's war on terror than approve it. Today, 53 percent of the British name Europe as their closest ally, compared to a third who choose the U.S. Two decades ago, that was reversed.

When New York City Democrat Ed Koch appeared on a BBC television program at the one-year anniversary of the Twin Towers attacks, he was called a simple-minded buffoon for defending the U.S.

Here is a representative response from the BBC Web site:

"The fact is that one of the reasons why the U.S. got bombed on September 11th was as a result of the U.S.'s heavy-handed and misguided approach in its foreign policy--which has created a lot of anger worldwide."

The Londoner who wrote that has much company across her continent: In a study by the Pew Research Center two months after the attacks, fully 66 percent of a group of European elites stated that Europeans believe it is "good for the U.S. to feel vulnerable. >>

All the Rah Rah bullsh*t in the world -- and God knows it flows deep and wide here at FReeRepublic -- will never convince those of US who constantly travel the world and who every month of the year meet and deal with scores of that sad socialist state's sorry subjects, that even Britain, our supposed "special partner and ally" is not consumed by the same envy-driven hesperophobic hatred and anti-Americanism that eats at Europe's other dead and decadent kleptocracies.

And that consumes about 90% of the rest of the world!
31 posted on 04/06/2003 3:37:34 AM PDT by Brian Allen (I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny ....)
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To: tictoc
It is more than curious that the article is absent any reference to Spain or Portugal.

You will recall a war council was held in the Portuguese held Azores between the united States of America, Spain, Portugal and England, before bombs began bursting in air - over Baghdad.

32 posted on 04/06/2003 3:48:05 AM PDT by Robert Drobot
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BTTT
33 posted on 04/06/2003 3:51:23 AM PDT by Fraulein
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To: Brian Allen
In Europe, even more then in the US, the media is left. In the Netherlands, 80% of the journalists vote leftist parties.
34 posted on 04/06/2003 4:37:29 AM PDT by knighthawk
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To: MizSterious; rebdov; Nix 2; green lantern; BeOSUser; Brad's Gramma; dreadme; Turk2; Squantos; ...
If yu got nothing to do on a rainy day, here is a long read (also look at reply #7)

Europe-list

If people want on or off this list, please let me know.

35 posted on 04/06/2003 4:38:23 AM PDT by knighthawk
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To: tictoc
I expect that Americans and Europeans will be reasonably amiable. We will vacation and attend college in each other's countries, and (one hopes) trade as easily as Canada and the U.S. do today

Yes, for now and 50 years to come. After that...

36 posted on 04/06/2003 4:40:05 AM PDT by knighthawk
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To: tictoc
BTTT.

Very good read.
37 posted on 04/06/2003 5:12:48 AM PDT by machman
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To: knighthawk
Pretty amazing article, recent enough to be relevant, but long enough ago that it appears amazingly prescient with regards to the diplomacy in the run-up to Gulf War II.
38 posted on 04/06/2003 5:30:07 AM PDT by FreedomPoster
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To: knighthawk
Well, that number is consistent, and maybe even lower, than the American one but yet what you say is very much true. I find it very interesting that the best reporting on the war is coming from Britain, at the same time, the BBC is one of the worst, almost as bad as Al-Jazeera. The French and German media still don't have a clue that the emperor is not wearing any clothes.

What an Amen Chorus they are.

39 posted on 04/06/2003 5:49:04 AM PDT by Citizen of the Savage Nation
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To: MadIvan
Excellent article on the future of the EU. Try to talk ol' Tony out of becoming more involved with that cesspool, Ivan. It still isn't too late for Britain to avoid the EUro-trap.
40 posted on 04/06/2003 6:52:41 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: Erasmus

I think you're half right. I didn't see the lack of mention of Russia as an issue. Russia is imploding demographically even more rapidly than Europe is. According to Pravda, "the Russian population can be expected to drop to 25 million people in 100 years." Their birth rate is not just low, it is in free-fall decline. My personal belief is that Russia cannot maintain its territorial integrity with that going on; its vast geography almost begs for invasion from China or elsewhere. Whether that is done militarily, or simply by immigration and propagation, almost doesn't matter. The result will be the same: a "Bigger China" where a lot of Russia is now.

I was as surprised as you were that Zinsmeister did not mention the "Islamization" of Europe. The population implosion among ethnic Europeans is not occurring in a vaccum. One might even argue that the undemocratic nature of the EU machinery is an attempt to forestall an inevitable imposition of Islamic law -- via popular vote -- in European countries. By surrendering sovereignty to an unelected bureaucracy, the "elites" can perhaps maintain some power over their lives while their countries slowly devolve into Islamic Republics.


41 posted on 04/06/2003 7:46:08 AM PDT by Nick Danger (More rallys planned! www.freerepublic.net)
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To: Nick Danger
bump
42 posted on 04/06/2003 8:51:08 AM PDT by kitkat (HANDYMAN'S SPECIAL: First Avenue, NYC, former site of the U.N.)
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To: Nick Danger
One final comment. The UK is at one of the great crossroads of her history. She's going to have to choose between EUrope and America. Which way she chooses determines her future, if she is to have one.

This same statement was made on CNN intl yesterday by the French delegate to the EU in a 4-way conversation with the German and British delegates and the CNN moderator. The Brit was very relaxed and young and affable and didn't need to point out that the Brits will do as they will in their own self interests without making 90 degree course corrections.

Another elephant in the living room: Fundamentalist and proseletyzing Christianity is outlawed in France and to a degree in Germany. Baptists aren't allowed to seek converts and standard American run of the mill "christian" lifestyle is near illegal and frowned upon.

Breakdown the barrier to fundamental christian renewal in both protestant and catholic traditions and you will see the rebirth of Europe. Otherwise all you will have is Medieval oppression without the Christian overtones. Ditto for Vatican organization - self censorship in Europe and Canada and propaganda distribution is at an all time high.

43 posted on 04/06/2003 9:00:27 AM PDT by Podkayne
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To: tictoc
A great read, but he does not take into account the flood of Muslim immigration into Europe, which will easily overcome the impact that distaste for childbearing has had on Euro-pop. Old Europe will then be a threat to us, perhaps within a couple of decades, because it will be Dar al Islam.

Or, perhaps it won't be an Islamic threat for awhile. Beating up on the native Euros will keep the new immigrants busy for awhile.

What a charming thought.

44 posted on 04/06/2003 9:19:15 AM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: americanbychoice; An.American.Expatriate; a_Turk; austinTparty; BMCDA; CatoRenasci; demlosers; ...
Thanks, tictoc.

German bump

longjack
45 posted on 04/06/2003 9:24:49 AM PDT by longjack
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To: Diverdogz

46 posted on 04/06/2003 9:26:13 AM PDT by Friend of thunder (No sane person wants war, but oppressors want oppression.)
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To: Mamzelle
Only a week ago I saw a French poster on another discussion board reminisce -- seriously! -- about the good old days when the court of Charlemagne (today's France and Germany) maintained cordial relations with the caliph Haroun al-Rashid in Baghdad, exchanging emissaries bearing gifts.

Many French are so deluded, it isn't funny. In their minds, the counterweight to U.S. power will be French brains, German engineering, Arab manpower, and Gulf oil money.

To them, this notion is entirely sane.
47 posted on 04/06/2003 9:29:47 AM PDT by tictoc
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To: Nick Danger
"I was as surprised as you were that Zinsmeister did not mention the "Islamization" of Europe. The population implosion among ethnic Europeans is not occurring in a vaccum. One might even argue that the undemocratic nature of the EU machinery is an attempt to forestall an inevitable imposition of Islamic law -- via popular vote -- in European countries. By surrendering sovereignty to an unelected bureaucracy, the "elites" can perhaps maintain some power over their lives while their countries slowly devolve into Islamic Republics."

I'm still unconvinced that those events are related. It might just be that Old Europe is on a fool's errand to have its United States of Europe counter-weight to the U.S.A., while simultaneously it is being filled by Islamic immigrants who want to take advantage of its welfare, relative standard of living, and moral vaccum.

48 posted on 04/06/2003 9:30:46 AM PDT by Southack (Media bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: longjack
Probably the one article a year that stands as a legendary piece of work.

There is no doubt about the European mentality sinking off into the sunset. In May 2005, the US base closure list will arrive...and most of the 70k troops in Germany are leaving. My guess is that we will try to leave two or three installations in Germany (Ramstein is one)...but the German parliament will ask that they all leave. And by 2006...we will be gone from Germany...and the new beginning will start. The Germans and France have troubled economies...and no one to blame but themselves...and this is when the riots will start in the streets. What they have done...is their own handiwork...and they can face the task ahead alone. We came when called in 1918 and 1942...but we need not rush back for another episode...let them discover what values we have on relationships.
49 posted on 04/06/2003 9:56:28 AM PDT by pepsionice
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To: Podkayne
One of the fascinating things about the German moral argument about the war...less than 5 percent of German population go to church on a regular basis. While 50 percent may go around Easter or Christmas...the bulk of society simply pay their state-required church tax and never say a word (if you don't pay, you can't get married in the church or have a church funeral...so they all pay for nothing). Whatever moral argument they are digging up...its nothing to do with Christian values...or they'd have to say something about Saddam's killing of his own people (but they'd never do that). The only values they appear to be choosing...are leftist social values...which appear to be in the losing column.
50 posted on 04/06/2003 10:16:04 AM PDT by pepsionice
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