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Bush praises Islam for its 'morality'
THE WASHINGTON TIMES ^ | Dec 6, 2002 | Bill Sammon

Posted on 12/06/2002 12:33:51 PM PST by robowombat

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This article really should have a gag alert.
1 posted on 12/06/2002 12:33:51 PM PST by robowombat
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To: robowombat
Yes, it should.
2 posted on 12/06/2002 12:35:40 PM PST by Bikers4Bush
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To: Bikers4Bush
Why are we continuing this charade? Our modern P.C. sensibilities will be the death of us all...
3 posted on 12/06/2002 12:39:00 PM PST by Loyolas Mattman
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: robowombat
Here is some of Islamic / Mohammed morality:

* Mohammed is estimated by scholars to have had somewhere between 15-25 wives. All agree that he had 9 wives at the time of his death (5 more than the Quran permits for other Muslims)!

* He died at age 63 in the home of Aisha, his favorite wife, and was buried on the spot where he died in Medina.

* Earlier, he fell in love with Zeinab, his cousin, and wife of his adopted son Zeid. He then received a "revelation" from Allah that it was permissible to marry the wife of an adopted son. Zeid divorced Zeinab so that Mohammed could marry her.

Sources: Ernest Kellett, A Short History of Religions. New York: Books for Libraries Press, 1971, P. 343, and Washington Irving, Life of Mahomet. New York: Dutton & Sons, 1911, p. 231.

* On his deathbed, Mohammed said: "Do not fear those who disbelieve, fear me" and called for the conquest of Christianity.

Source, Essad Bey, Mohammed. New York: Longmans, Green & Co., 1936, p. 330.

6 posted on 12/06/2002 12:44:50 PM PST by KriegerGeist
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To: Bonapartist
Islamic society used to be far more advanced than Christian society, so when Bush praises it as having many great achievements, he is correct.

Yeah, I use the number 0 a lot...like when I add up the believability quotient of most leftist leaders. :)

7 posted on 12/06/2002 12:47:59 PM PST by CanisMajor2002
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To: robowombat
Posted and discussed here.
8 posted on 12/06/2002 12:49:27 PM PST by Consort
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To: robowombat
Do the polls in Saudia Arabia NOW suggest that Americans aren't so bad afterall? McDonalds should be safe now, especially since the Prez took off his shoes.
9 posted on 12/06/2002 12:52:50 PM PST by rovenstinez
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To: robowombat
This is the Islamic Center directly connected to the Saudi Government as follows:

http://www.saudiembassy.net/Consulate/regulations.htm

5. Islamic marriage certificates and the Islamic declaration certificates [“Al-Shahada”] needed for a Saudi Arabian marriage to a foreign wife must first be authenticated by an Islamic center of the respective county or state and then by:

The Islamic Center
2551 Massachusetts Ave, N.W.
Washington DC 20008
tel (202)332-8343

And then by:
The Royal Embassy of Saudi Arabia
Consular Section
601 New Hampshire Ave. N.W.
Washington DC 20037

But if you do choose to have your marriage "authenticated" by the Saudis, you must realize that the children are not yours, and can be kidnapped to Saudi Arabia at will, never to return.

10 posted on 12/06/2002 12:54:11 PM PST by Uncle Miltie
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To: robowombat
"He's made it very clear that the war on terrorism is not a war about religion. It's a war about good vs. evil."

Quite right. Only 75% of Arabs oppose our war on terrorism (per Pew). Three quarters evil, one quarter good. No religion involved.

11 posted on 12/06/2002 12:56:26 PM PST by Uncle Miltie
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To: robowombat
"Millions of our fellow Americans practice the Muslim faith," said Mr. Bush, a born-again Christian.

"And I'm happy that they're still just practicing," though the President, "because when they get real good at it, we're gonna have us a Texas-sized problem."

12 posted on 12/06/2002 12:56:36 PM PST by Sender
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To: robowombat
"Islam affirms God's justice"

I believe Bush was making a prophetic statement here. Before all this is over, our conflict with them will indeed prove that God is a just God. FNC interviewed Mansoor Ijaz about this speech yesterday. It was great. He said that this makes President Bush the voice of Moslem moderation in this country, which should come from a Moslem voice (he was praising the president). The other guest was left sputtering in anger. I think this president knows exactly what he is doing!

13 posted on 12/06/2002 12:57:15 PM PST by twigs
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To: Bonapartist
Here is some more Islamic / Muhammad's morality:

Marriage to Six-Year Old

In 624 Abu Bakr (Muhammad’s daily companion and one of his first believers and successor of Muhammad) gave Muhammad his daughter Aisha when she was six years old, although the actual marriage was not consummated until she was nine. This fact is uncontested by all Muslim scholars and chroniclers without exception). At the time of their marriage Muhammad was 54 years old (the age of her grandfather) – a difference of 45 years in their ages.

Aisha herself testified to these facts:

“The messenger of God betrothed me when I was six years old and then married me when I was nine years old.”

Source: Sahih Muslim (by Imam al-Mawawy), vol. 3, p. 577.

Islamic law has codified this principle of non-consent for under-age women based on Muhammad’s precedent:

“A father may give consent to have his young virgin daughter married without obtaining her permission, for she does not have a choice, exactly as Abu Bakr El Sadiq did to his daughter Aisha, when she was six years old. He married her to the prophet Muhammad without her permission.”

Source: Ibn Hazam (acknowledged by all Muslims as one of the greatest scholars on Islamic Law) in his al-Muhalla (“The Sweetened”). Vol. 6, part 9, pp. 458-460.

Abd El Schafi, author of Behind the Veil stated in response: “These are cruel, hard words and iniquitous Islamic principles which the free human conscience utterly rejects and detests because it is related to the most important subject in the girl’s life, that is, her body and her future” (p. 83).

Polygamy, Concubines, and Mistresses in Islam

“No one is allowed to wed more than four women, but he is permitted however, in addition to them, to buy (women), as many as he wants.”

Source: Ibn Hazam, vol. 6, part 9, pp. 441, 467.

However, exceptions were made for the Prophet and his successors:

Muhammad had 11 wives and an Egyptian concubine Umar Ibn al-Khattab had 7 wives plus 2 maid-salves

Uthman Ibn Affan had 8 wives

Ali Ibn Abi Talib (cousin of Muhammad) married 10 women plus 10 concubines and maid-slaves for a total of 29

Al-Hasan Ibn Ali (grandson of Muhammad and called by the Prophet “the master of the youth of Paradise”) married 70 women (and was said to sometimes divorce two women in a day!).

Sources: Biographies such as Ibn Kathir’s, Bidaya and the Nihaya, vol. 7 & 8, and Suyuti’s, Chonicles of the Caliphs.

Marriage to wives of men killed by Muslims, including the murder of Jews

It was standard practice, and made legal by Muhammad, to take as a “wife” in addition to captives, the wives of men killed in battle (or executed). On one occasion when Muhammad launched an attack on a Jewish tribe he personally witnessed their beheading and then took some of their widows to bed. Semitic scholar and historian A.B. Davidson (a professor at New College, Edinburgh) recorded one such instance:

“On one day he caused 800 Jews to be beheaded in cold blood, himself standing by and watching the butchery; and in the evening, to efface the unpleasant impression from his mind, and give a more happy turn to his ideas, he took home the wife of one of the murdered chiefs, and added her to his harem.”

Source: A.B. Davidson, Biblical and Literary Essays, ed. J.A. Peterson (London: Hodder & Stroughton, 1902), p. 228.

Sexual License in Islam – The Temporary Contractual Marriage

According to all Muslim scholars (especially in Sahih Muslim) the temporary, contractual marriage was made lawful by Muhammad simply to satisfy the sexual passions of his soldiers. The “marriage” only had to last 3 days, after which the woman could be deserted and left without any rights. Only the fact that it is temporary a “marriage” separates it from outright fornication and adultery (forbidden in Islam), but there is practically no difference. It was practiced during the beginning of the Islamic era (during the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Ibn Abu ‘Umar) and is continued in practice today by over 100 million Shi’ite Muslims worldwide.

Concerning this practice the following Islamic authority states:

“While in the army, Allah’s Apostle came to us and said, ‘You have been allowed to have Muta (“pleasure”), so do it.’ If a man and a woman agree to marry temporarily, their marriage should last for three nights …”

Source: Sahih al-Bukbari, part 7, p. 37.

14 posted on 12/06/2002 12:57:27 PM PST by KriegerGeist
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To: robowombat
This article really should have a gag alert.

Maybe this will help

Click here for a Barf!
Click the Pic

15 posted on 12/06/2002 12:59:28 PM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: twigs
I've been watching Mr. Ijaz ever since 9/11/01, and I continue to be impressed by his clarity, courage, and style. But I am still wary, as someone who dresses that well and slicks his hair back so carefully must have a hidden agenda . . .

He has made some amazingly prescient comments about Al Qaida and the Islamofascists, so I make a point to stop and listen to him. But I wonder . . .

16 posted on 12/06/2002 1:04:13 PM PST by Remole
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To: robowombat
Let's all pray that President Bush gets a real wake-up call on Islam. It's one area where he's really seems stubborn.
17 posted on 12/06/2002 1:06:28 PM PST by No dems 2002
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To: robowombat
inspiring "countless individuals to lead lives of honesty, integrity, and morality."

Indeed, I have not been able to count any. They are truly countless...

18 posted on 12/06/2002 1:08:44 PM PST by American in Israel
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To: Remole
I agree with your assessment. I'm inclined to believe him, but I too am always wary. I found a very interesting article about him when I began to wonder about him several weeks ago. He grew up in the same area I did--SW VA. His southern accent is detectable. The one thing I found interesting is that his father (a professor at VA Tech) went to Saudi Arabia for several years in the early 80s and seemed to return much the poorer. At that point, he pressed Mansoor into service providing for the family finances. His background was in engineering of some type I believe. Nuclear maybe? I do find that Saudi Arabia stint interesting and potentially disturbing. I believe Mansoor was born in Pakistan. Someone else may know for sure.

Always keep my eyes open; trust but verify!!

19 posted on 12/06/2002 1:21:27 PM PST by twigs
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To: robowombat
Even if Islam could inspire them to lead "relatively" moral lives, which nobody except Bush and Powell really believes anyway, there remains a fundamental problem.

Our morality is not judged on a bell curve of human morality where Hitler and Mother Theresa form the extremes and if you are better than Joe Normal you are ok.

Instead we are judged by a God who, unlike Allah, is perfect, Holy, sinless. And He has already judged all of us and found us all sinful.

Islam condemns it's followers to death because it dismisses the only solution to sin, which is to be forgiven through the substitution of God's sacrificial lamb, Jesus.

In that regard Islam is just a more violent version of all of the other world's non-JudeoChristian religions that con man into thinking that man can earn his way to heaven if he is just good enough.



20 posted on 12/06/2002 1:22:19 PM PST by DannyTN
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To: Brad Cloven
Separately, the Washington Times reports that the Islamic Center of Washington is funded directly by the Saudis, and that political content is forbidden in the Imam's speeches.

Only while in Saudi Arabia in Arabic can they claim the Jews caused 9/11.

21 posted on 12/06/2002 1:23:54 PM PST by Uncle Miltie
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To: robowombat
The United States of America -- Home of embarrasingly stupid Political Correct speech fascism
22 posted on 12/06/2002 1:26:02 PM PST by SunStar
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To: Bonapartist
Islamic society used to be far more advanced than Christian society, so when Bush praises it as having many great achievements, he is correct.

What, Exactly, are the Great Achievements of the Islamic World?

ML/NJ

23 posted on 12/06/2002 1:48:37 PM PST by ml/nj
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To: robowombat
When people ask if Islam is a violent religion, bush should simply act like the so called moderate clerics when they were asked about 9/11......They said nothing, most people in america don't like islam, they don't want to hear it bashed, but they certainly don't want to hear it praised. No need to be politically correct, let the deafining sound be our response to this ideology with bloody borders.
24 posted on 12/06/2002 2:19:15 PM PST by Sonny M
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Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: robowombat
THAT isn't morality! That is just locking the women away in a kharam, so that no men could possibly get TO them, and they also cannot get OUT to the men!

So far from being "morality," such is a surrender to mortmain and to the idea that humans are just raging beasts [sexually] who are not CAPABLE of morality!

Can it be that Bush doesn't know these things? I knew them when I was 12.

26 posted on 12/06/2002 2:22:24 PM PST by crystalk
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To: Bonapartist
That is nothing more than a hallowed myth.
27 posted on 12/06/2002 2:22:54 PM PST by crystalk
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: Bonapartist
Islamic society used to be far more advanced than Christian society, so when Bush praises it as having many great achievements, he is correct.

If true, at what cost? The imprisonment of untold millions through fear?

Yeah, way more "advanced."

29 posted on 12/06/2002 2:42:22 PM PST by A2J
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Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: Bonapartist
*grin*

Not enough thanks is thrown around here, so I'll say: Thanks for the info.

31 posted on 12/06/2002 3:07:49 PM PST by CanisMajor2002
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To: Bonapartist
Islam, scientifically has given the world so little of value it could be written on a gum wrapper.

Robert Boyle - scientist and chemist

Michael Faraday - physicist, formulated laws electromagnetic induction, did groundwork for making dynamos, electric motors and transformers

James Joule - science of thermodynamics

William Thompson a.k.a. Lord Kelvin - thermodynamics and the Kelvin, temperature scale

Johannes Kepler - laws of planetary motion (more on Kepler)

Carl Linnaeus - botanist, professor

Matthew Maury - leading scientist in oceanography and hydrography

James Clerk Maxwell - electromagnetic theory

Samuel F.B. Morse - invented the telegraph, Morse code is named after him

Isaac Newton - laws of gravity, motion and calculus

Blaise Pascal - invented early calculator, helped discover the theory of probability

Louis Pasteur - invented vaccination, immunization and pasteurization

This is just a small list. Basically, all Islam has to offer the world is terrorism.....the more closely you follow it, the more you hate America, and Israel and the more dangerous to the world you become. It is one of the most useless (and dangerous!) faiths going.

Without Christianity, modern science would not even exist. Even atheists have acknowledged that.

Without Islam, we would not have hijackings, homicide bombings, kidnappings, sniper attacks, blah blah blah. His,

Bob Z.

32 posted on 12/06/2002 3:19:23 PM PST by Bob Z.
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: robowombat
Now you will hear that our only Islamic enemies are the "bad muslims" the rest, the vast majority, are nice and peaceful.

Hmmm...

Want to know what the most popular toy is that all these nice peaceful muslims are buying for their kids?

Bin Laden toy a 'must have' in Muslim world

December 06, 2002, 07:17 AM

There is one toy for sale in the festival markets of Karachi that catches the eye as Eid approaches. It is a distinctive, bearded figurine, riding 'shotgun' in a military jeep, and its proving to be a big hit with mothers and fathers buying holiday presents for their youngsters. Toy crazes are a common theme in the build up to Christmas holidays in the west with certain 'must have' presents disappearing off shelves in a flash, parents queuing up for hours or even coming to blows to make sure their offspring has the latest thing. The story is no different in the Muslim world as Eid approaches but one of this year's 'must haves' would probably be banned from sale in many parts of the west, an Osama bin Laden action figure complete with military jeep and bodyguards. "As you know Osama is very popular in the whole world, the same thing is happening in Pakistan, people like him and he has become a celebrity now," said Imran, a young boy eyeing up the goods on offer at a Karachi toy store. "Children like Osama's car. They want to buy toys like Osama's cars or Osama's guns," echoed Eram, a young girl showing an equally keen interest in the toy. According to a toy stall holder, Naseer, some parents were even paying up to $4 in advance to insure they could become the proud owners of one of the dolls.

http://www.sabcnews.com/world/the_middle_east/0,1009,48819,00.html

Need I say more???

34 posted on 12/06/2002 3:30:42 PM PST by Walkin Man
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To: Bonapartist; dennisw; Thinkin' Gal; Jeremiah Jr; thatdewd; 2sheep; DoughtyOne
WADR that is STILL nothing more than a hallowed myth. You are proving my point, it IS hallowed, IS politically correct.

Too bad you are still HALLOWING it, but I will just keep on HOLLOWING it, and we will see who beats it first.

Oh, wade a minnit, you are BUILDING IT UP!!!

[mutters under breath]nuther ex christian

35 posted on 12/06/2002 4:11:47 PM PST by crystalk
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To: Geist Krieger
In Kandahar, Afghanistan, the Muslim men are known for having boy lovers and are called "ashnas". The men may even be married and have children. Sodomy does exist in the Muslim world, so I do not know just why they are so moral. In Islam, Paradise is described more like a house of ill fame, where each Muslim male gets 72 perpetual virgins, so it is worse than the Mustang Ranch,
and I am not interested in going there.
36 posted on 12/06/2002 4:13:06 PM PST by tessalu
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To: Bonapartist; Travis McGee; Alamo-Girl
Islamic society used to be far more advanced than Christian society, so when Bush praises it as having many great achievements, he is correct.

Wrongo! What you and Bush are espousing is a fundamentally false, revisionist-apologist history of Islam, when he praises the 'learning' of Islam. The ACTUAL history shows that it was a number of subjugated Christians and Jews who provided the overwhelming examples of 'learning' from Math to astronomy and architecture that were touted by apologists as 'Islamic'. These conquered peoples often had to produce some intellectually advantageous product to keep them around...and without slit throats. And even then it didn't always work.

Bush is also reticent about acknowledging how many people would LEAVE Islam if they ONLY COULD. Maybe the majority. Who knows for sure. After all, Murderous retaliation awaits the ones who try it. Witness Salman Rushdie. Witness the fatwah's even today by Muslims in Britain! So instead of a 'billion' people finding 'comfort' in Islam, its that they HAVE NO CHOICE. Either you say you believe, and stay quiet about critizing anyone more devout than you, or you will die. We used to say in the conservative critique of the Democrats was that they saw no emenies on the left.And the 'moderate' Islamics only cover up for the REAL, authentic, and true-to-the Koran version that is going to be ultimately implemented in EVERY nation...as it has in EVERY other nation already under Muslim dominance. So to be piteously and obtusely blind to what we are up against, doesn't jolly along the enemies of religious freedom in the listed countries....it just persuades them (particularly since the Islamo-immigration flood is unstemmed in any degree) that we are too weak to oppose their FURTHERING the terror campaign, and encouraging them to continue the charade over 'moderate islam'.

So the only interest which is advanced long term is the jihadists, while the U.S. security is undermined, both domestically and abroad. And I can just see Rove and Card bamboozling the Prez into thinking that these kinds of stunts are 'win-win' and without any actual national security cost.

37 posted on 12/06/2002 4:53:36 PM PST by Paul Ross
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To: Bonapartist; kattracks
And what does the Holocaust say about our society?

The Holocaust says nothing negative about OUR society. It was the result not of OUR Judeo-Christian society, but the anti-Christian, atheistic Nationalist Socialist Party of Germany. Adolf Hitler hated Christianity with a passion. Typically, it is the lamest of Marxist misrepresentations to contend the Holocaust was somehow Christian, (typically because the Vatican caved in to Hitler's/Mussolini's threats and stayed silent). In fact, of course, It was OUR Judeo-Christian society which clobbered the NAZI's and rescued the surviving holocaust victims. Meanwhile, the NAZI's found fertile country in the muslim countries, even having auxilary units among them, such as Turkey and Bosnia-Herzegovinia. And where do we find even today the fevered belief in, and television shows based on the NAZI-created anti-jewish hoax 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'? I'll Give you three guesses. Who do you think is demanding a renewed holocaust today?

And who is standing four-square against it? Only us.

38 posted on 12/06/2002 5:08:36 PM PST by Paul Ross
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To: Bonapartist
The sciences and politics benefited the most from a large Islamic Empire, which one could argue was far more tolerable of other religions than Western society was before the United States. Leaps in Astronomy, Medicine, physics, mathematics, chemistry, art, language, and music all were brought in from the Islamic world to our own.

Durant gets it backwards. First, no western society was more tolerant of religions than the Romans and Greeks, who were essentially polytheists. The Greeks even built the statue in Athens to the 'Unknown' God in case they had forgetten any. As to the sciences, this is perhaps the apologists of Islam's lie that is almost as great as "islam is a religion of peace." The Islamic world merely stole these ideas from the Christian and jewish intellectuals who they subjugated. The Mullahs and Caliphates themselves did not encourage intellectual progress. They kept the jewish and Christian intellectuals around so long as it was convenient to keep them around, and profit from their inventions. Your ideas about taxation are also off base. The empire of Islam grew at the explosive rate it did because it taxed as spoils all of its victories on the field of battle. And it continued to tax all those at 1/5th all those who refused to convert. It stripped the wherewithal of the populace to resist. Gross poverty ensued wherever the Jihad's armies went. Vast wealth resided in its sultans, who were then lauded by Islamic apologists as depicting the condition of the people. The prophet, and later the Caliphate, funnelled much of the spoils all back to Mecca. And the jihadists, also getting a lot of earthly spoil, were promised to be at the Prophet's hand, and to have their own 72 virgins in Heavan if they 'martyred' themselves in the cause of holy war.

39 posted on 12/06/2002 5:27:42 PM PST by Paul Ross
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To: All
Are we confusing Islam with al-Qaeda?
40 posted on 12/06/2002 5:38:52 PM PST by Z-28
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To: Bonapartist
For those of you who don't realize how much the Islamic world has advanced mankind, I suggest you pick up a few books, starting with the "The History of Civilization" by Will and Ariel Durant...begin with "Our Oriental Heritage."

Unfortunately for you, I have this book on my shelf and I just took a look at it. (The) Muhammed isn't indexed at all. Islam is in a few places, and all or most all of the references might get Durant a fatwa (That's such a nice word, isn't it?) were he still alive. He talks about the poor treatment of women. He talks about the bloodthurstiness of the men. The only neutral treatment Islam gets is when Durant considers Akbar the Great. ("He had quite discarded the dogmas of Islam." Maybe that's what made Akbar great?) So this is your first misrepresentation. There is nothing that I recall, or that I could easily locate, in Our Oriental Heritage that in any way touches on "how much the Islamic World advanced mankind."

To be fair, I should point out that Durant's major treatment of Islam occurs in The Age of Faith which is the fourth volume in his Story of Civilization series. There's probably some nice things said about Islamic Scholarship, Science, Medicine, Philosophy, Literature, Art, and Music (all ToC topics) but I couldn't find them when I skimmed that section quickly.

Now since you seem to like to read, maybe you might try La Fallaci's Rage and Pride. It's a quick read. You'll learn some things.

Especially amazing is the initial spread of the Islamic Empire throughout the Middle East, Africa, Andalusia(Spain), Asia, and eastern Europe. It spread just as every other great Empire (the Roman, British, French) spread. ...

Now it's interesting that you mention this. I am in the habit of sitting in on classes at one (and soon two) of the nation's top universities. Last year I sat in on a Western Civ Lecture which just happened to be about the spread of Islam that day. The professor started off by comparing the spread of Islam to the spread of Christianity, 100 years vs 300 years to become well established. After he was done with the real students, he and I chatted for about a half hour mostly about this idea. The reason Islam spread so much faster than Christianity, I suggested, is that Islam was spread via the Sword. Christianity was spread via the Word. (That missing S makes a BIG difference.) The professor largely agreed with me. Comparing Islam with political empires on your part, which are usually military empires, just reenforces the point.

This Islamic Empire changed forms throughout the years, but in its height in the form of the Ottoman Empire, it held lands greater than Rome and easily toppled the Eastern Roman Empire, almost taking Europe along with it if it weren't for the brave slew of Europeans warriors from Russia, Serbia, Austria, Germany, and France.

Holding territory, again, is an evidence of military strength. I am not aware of any region that willingly accepted Islam without compulsion.

The sciences and politics benefited the most from a large Islamic Empire, which one could argue was far more tolerable of other religions than Western society was before the United States. Leaps in Astronomy, Medicine, physics, mathematics, chemistry, art, language, and music all were brought in from the Islamic world to our own.

Gee. Really? I know they named many of the stars, but what else did they do? I have degrees in the sciences, and many courses I took started out with an historical overview. I just don't rememeber anyone ever crediting an Arab for anything. Music? Please! Don't they kill people for singing?

One of Ronald Reagan's favorite men to quote, Ibn Khaldun, was probably one of the greatest political minds to ever live. I suggest you people read more about him, too.

I never heard of Khaldun. (Not even during any of the dozen or so political philosophy classes, I sat in on during the past few years.) Is he like Aristotle? I'll try to check him out, but I hope you'll understand my negative attitude going in.

Take it easy, and realize that while we have a lot to be proud of, other societies have contributed much to our own, and that the MAJORITY of Muslims are not bad people.

I prefer not to take it easy when I am being attacked. Other societies have contributed to ours, but it's hard to think of any other historical group which has contributed less than the Muslims have. (Okay. Maybe the Hittites? But I've seen it suggested that the Hittites never existed, which would seem to put them at a big disadvantage.) You suggest the the majority of Muslims are good people without a scintilla of evidence. I suggest that the majority of politically active Muslims are active enemies of ours. I say this based upon the ease with which one can find "Death to America" type websites, and the near impossiblity of finding Islamic websites that think it might be okay we retained our English-Judeo-Christian heritage.

ML/NJ

41 posted on 12/06/2002 5:57:39 PM PST by ml/nj
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To: Bonapartist
What about our beloved "Christian" society, where only an estimated 1/3 of 20 million negroes shipped from Africa to different parts of the world by the slave trade survived?

Hell...o?!

Slavery still exists in the Islamic World, today, now.

ML/NJ

42 posted on 12/06/2002 6:00:48 PM PST by ml/nj
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To: Bonapartist
I should also amend my rant to mention that significant non-christian/jewish scholars were also misappropriated by the Islamic Empire from other cultures and religions.

When pro-Islam spokesmen talk about the achievements of Islam, the speech is always preceded by the phrase, "Eight hundred years ago..." If Islam was conducive and promotive of intellectual advancement, it would never have regressed backwards to the barbarism we see today. We instead should have seen perpetual progress and stimulation and intellectual ferment, such as in the Western Renaissance.

What we in fact find is that the oft-touted achievements of Islamic civilization are all on the far corners of the Muslim world, and were products either of non-Arab peoples long ago(the mosques of Sinan in Turkey; the poetry and painting of Persia; the Taj Mahal in India) or in synthesis with other peoples (as with the Muslim/Christian/Jewish culture of Moorish Spain). "Arabic numbers" are a misnomer, are actually of Indian/Hindu origin, inclusive of the concept of 'zero'. Arabs merely provided the 'bridge' to the West, after having invaded both cultures by force.

43 posted on 12/06/2002 6:18:40 PM PST by Paul Ross
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: Bonapartist
For those of you who don't realize how much the Islamic world has advanced mankind...

If there were even the slightest bit of truth in that idea then islamic societies (of which there are many) would not be some of the most backward, medieval, and cruely inhuman societies on earth. All are restricted and held back by one common demominator: islam. Healthcare, sanitation, jurisprudence, social and political conditions, in islamic societies all of these are screaming proof that islam is a burden and a hindrance to human advancement. Your claim has as much validity as one who would say that having AIDS makes one healthier. Look around, you can probably find a book or two that says it. Most of the contributions to ancient society claimed by muslims were actually contributions by the Persians, who are not arabs, and who were advanced themselves by interaction with other non-islamic peoples, such as Jews and Greeks. Their few contributions were made in spite of islam, not because of it.

As the different tribes and nations of people who were living throughout the land were conquered, their taxes were lowered, they were given a stable common currency...This is the guiding principle of Supply Side economics.

Their taxes were lowered IF they converted. If not, additional taxes were levied on those that weren't murdered. That doesn't sound like supply side economics to me. BTW, Silver and Gold had been stable common currencies long before islam tried to enslave the world.

Leaps in Astronomy, Medicine, physics, mathematics, chemistry, art, language, and music all were brought in from the Islamic world to our own.

Nazism can claim more contributions to all these things than islam can and how long was it around? Oh come on, some mathmatical theories of the Persians can be honestly claimed, along with a few Persian astronomical concepts, but that's about it. ART? yeah, right. Islam has destroyed and hindered art more than any despotic blight that ever cursed the face of the planet. Just ask all those greek statues that had their noses broken off. Just ask all those paintings and tapestries that were destroyed and forbidden to be recreated. Islam is the ultimate enemy of ART. The only contributions ever made by "islam" were PERSIAN contributions, not islamic contributions. And those would not have happened either, if the Persian empire had not interacted with so many different cultures BEFORE falling victim to islam.

45 posted on 12/06/2002 6:55:29 PM PST by thatdewd
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To: BrowningBAR
That's a purely African cultural artifcat. The Arabs/Muslims have their problems for sure, but we are a sensual people and the idea of genital mutilation is unthinkable.

If some mullah suggested this idea for our women, the mullah would be beheaded.

46 posted on 12/06/2002 6:58:16 PM PST by Hamza01
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: tessalu
Actually, one of the few things that Muslims still do right is their willingness to agressively condemn homosexuality. After all, God didn't (according to the old testament) destroy nations for polygamy-- but he ANNIHILATED Sodom and Gomorrah for butt-piracy.

As far as a vision of heaven is concerned, Heaven is what you choose it to be if you're worthy. Bliss may be carnal for some, and intellectual for others.

49 posted on 12/06/2002 7:06:37 PM PST by Hamza01
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To: Fiddlstix

50 posted on 12/06/2002 7:12:20 PM PST by reagan_fanatic
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