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Lawmakers back bill on alien licenses
Washington Times ^ | 12/18/02 | Vaishali Honawar

Posted on 12/17/2002 11:19:19 PM PST by kattracks

Edited on 07/12/2004 3:59:42 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Republican lawmakers in Virginia say they will back legislation at the upcoming General Assembly session that would require noncitizens who apply for driver's licenses to prove they are in the country legally.

The reaction followed a statement from Attorney General Jerry W. Kilgore, who said this week he would seek such legislation because seven of the 19 September 11 hijackers had illegally obtained driver's licenses issued in Virginia.

(Excerpt) Read more at ...

TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: arlington; fairfax; fairfaxco; illegalimmigration; immigrantlist; kilgore; markwarner; vageneralassembly; virginia
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1 posted on 12/17/2002 11:19:19 PM PST by kattracks
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To: *immigrant_list
2 posted on 12/17/2002 11:22:07 PM PST by The Obstinate Insomniac
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To: The Obstinate Insomniac
Can't believe it. A couple legislators with brains! Too good to be true!
3 posted on 12/17/2002 11:47:32 PM PST by holyscroller
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To: kattracks
"I believe that the Department of Motor Vehicles should be in the business of licensing drivers to operate motor vehicles." (Sen. Whipple)

Senator Whipple, the DMV is in the business of licensing drivers to operate motor vehicles.

I cannot believe that the employees of DMV are capable of making decisions on immigration," she (Sen. Whipple) said.

Senator Whipple, you should neither underestimate nor insult the employees at your state's DMV offices by making such a ridiculous statement.

4 posted on 12/18/2002 12:28:16 AM PST by judgeandjury
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To: kattracks
Sen. Mary Margaret Whipple, Arlington Democrat, said she did not believe the DMV could make complicated decisions on immigration.

A ridiculous statement on its face.

There are only a few INS forms which show legal residency.

There is the form if you are here as a student, the green card, the tourist visa, etc. etc. If you are an American citizen, there is the birth certificate and so forth.

The real reason Demoncrats are against curbing illegal immigration is that they profit from selling out our country.

5 posted on 12/18/2002 12:43:45 AM PST by ikka
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To: jla; sultan88; Mudboy Slim; P8riot; Corin Stormhands; VaFederalist; StayAt HomeMother; JackOfVA; ...
The measure proposed by Mr. Kilgore "is going to create more lines [at the Department of Motor Vehicles], more delays, more problems, for people who are already there. It is going to be a more difficult process," she [Byrne] said.

What a flimsy argument to try and retain the illegal immigrant vote. This woman should be thrown out of office.

Never too early to start the Kilgore for Governor Campaign. Any help will be appreciated! Latest email from Jerry Kilgore's PAC

I hope all is well with you this holiday season. I thought you might be interested in this commentary written by the former chairman of the Democrat Party, Paul Goldman. Please feel free to forward to anyone you think might be interested as well.


Ken Hutcheson
Executive Director
Virginians For Jerry Kilgore PAC

King Kong Kilgore

Mild-mannered Jerry Kilgore may not roar and beat his chest, but he has become Virginia's most powerful first-year attorney general in modern times.

I am the law in this County said legendary Texas hanging Judge Roy Bean. Sorry, Mr. Bean. Time for you to move over because there is another hombre in town. His name is Jerry Kilgore and he is the law not just in one county, but in the whole state of Virginia.

The boy from Scott County has become The Man in Richmond, where he rules the legal roost as the state's top legal officer. If there has ever been a more powerful first-year Attorney General in Virginia history, my research couldn't find one. In this past year, he has overruled at least three formal opinions of previous Attorneys General. This is highly unusual if not unprecedented. Now, in defiance of tradition, he has taken the Virginia Supreme Court to court, challenging one of its most controversial decisions before the United States Supreme Court. Moreover, this constitutional lawyer says Mr. Kilgore should win, and will win, his appeal of the Virginia high court's misguided 4-3 decision in the KKK cross-burning case. If he does, it will be a huge victory, with national repercussions.

This leads to the question: Why is Mr. Kilgore becoming so powerful?

Look at the 2001 election returns. Kilgore is the first Attorney General candidate since 1969 to win election while his Party's standard-bearer was losing the race for governor. His victory margin was the best-ever for a GOP candidate for the state's top elected legal job.

So yes, he won big, and this no doubt is something he has used very successfully. But it fails to explain the reluctance of Democrats to challenge his more questionable legal rulings. Except for the law suit brought by Hillsville lawyer Jonathan McGrady in the case of Marye vs State Board of Elections, the Attorney General has been given a virtual free pass in terms of legal matters initiated during his first few months in office.

Right now, his legal boys, as indicated above, are in the United States Supreme Court, challenging the legal ruling of the Virginia Supreme Court voiding convictions of several KKK members for violating the Old Dominion's statute outlawing cross burnings in certain circumstances. The Virginia high court had declared the criminal statute unconstitutional in an emotionally charged 4-3 decision. Kilgore decided, on his own, to appeal the decision to the Supremes in Washington.

Earlier this week, the AG's office made a very impressive legal argument before the nine black-robed sages sitting in the house Virginian John Marshall built. The Klan says the First Amendment, written by Virginian James Madison, protects their right to burn crosses even if in so doing, their actions and words evidence a clear intent to intimidate others; indeed, in the case at issue, a witness to their "ritual" and hateful, kill-the-"n------" declarations, said she was scared for the safety of herself and her children.

Kilgore disagrees with the Klan, as does Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas who, awaking from his 11-year slumber, called the Virginia Supreme Court majority wrongheaded and declared the anti-Klan law constitutional. The final outcome awaits the formal ruling of all 9 Justices.

To this constitutional lawyer, Kilgore and Thomas are right, although we may differ on the precise reasoning [this is for another article]. Virginia's anti-cross burning law does not infringe on the First Amendment rights of the Klan, or any other bigoted and hateful group.

Thus, in my view, Attorney General Kilgore is soon to win a huge victory in the United States Supreme Court, one where he stood up not only to the Klan, but also to the cavemen of the Virginia high court who must think they live in the same world as Mississippi Senator Trent Lott.

Kilgore's "I am the law" persona, whereby he has now stared down the Governor, the Virginia Supreme Court and the General Assembly on major legal issues, hardly seems to square with his mild-mannered personality.

This political observer cannot determine if he is merely the one-eyed lawyer in the land of the jurisprudentially blind, or one of those individuals whose grit is easily underestimated by others.

In that regard, the next few years will tell the tale of the tape, as they say in boxing. Lieutenant Governor Kaine is a very gritty politician despite his friendly and laid-back manner. So he, too, is easily underestimated by those who associate steely resolve with the macho-man image.

In recent years, sitting attorneys general and incumbent lieutenant governors have faced each other 5 different times on the path to the Governorship. LG Robb defeated AG Coleman in the 1981 gubernatorial race. In 1985, AG Jerry Baliles upset LG Dick Davis for the Democratic gubernatorial nomination, and then went on to a landslide win in the General election. Sitting AG Mary Sue Terry, encouraged by Robb and Baliles to challenge incumbent LG Doug Wilder for the 1989 Democratic gubernatorial nomination, decided against committing political suicide for the cause. She let Wilder run for Governor, and went along for a re-election ride as the LG won the biggest upset in American gubernatorial history.

In 1997, sitting Republican AG Jim Gilmore went fender-to-fender against LG Don Beyer in a gubernatorial race decided by the GOP candidate's successful advocacy for the repeal of the local car tax. In 2001, Republican AG Mark Earley easily bested GOP LG John Hager in an intra-party fight for the right to run against Democratic candidate and future Governor Mark Warner.

So, in the last six gubernatorial election cycles, the sitting AG has bested the sitting LG 3 out of 5 times in head-to-head races either in a general election or an intra-party contest. Thus, history provides no guide as to the likely winner in any Kaine vs. Kilgore match-up in 2005.

In the fullness of time, hindsight will be 20-20 in that regard. But no hindsight, or even foresight, is currently needed to assess Mr. Kilgore's image as attorney general. He is, without question, the most powerful attorney general in modern times.

If this isn't clear to Virginia political observers by now, it will be when he slam dunks the KKK, the Virginia Supreme Court, and all those in the government who urged him not to appeal the cross-burning case.

-- December 16, 2002

Paul Goldman was chief political strategist for the past two winning Democratic governors in Virginia and was credited with leading a "revolution in American politics" by The New York Times for his role in breaking America's 300-year-old color barrier in national politics.

6 posted on 12/19/2002 4:34:52 PM PST by Ligeia
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To: rmlew
No, you can't have Jerry Kilgore or Eric Cantor. You'll have to move south to be represented by conservatives like them! (from the Savage thread) It's the illegals we're trying to shoo away. There was an article in the RTD that claimed 80,000 illegals are in Virginia -- most of them in my neck of the woods.

For the Virginians...

Dec 19, 2002

Kilgore's policies criticized

Immigrant groups seek college access

ARLINGTON - Furious with Attorney General Jerry W. Kilgore's efforts to hinder illegal immigrants from attending state colleges, immigrant advocates are planning to fight back when the General Assembly convenes in Richmond next month. [get ready, folks]

Yesterday, during a forum on Kilgore's initiatives, representatives of immigrant groups said the attorney general's proposals ignore the hurdles that children of illegal immigrants face in becoming American citizens.

The forum drew about 100 people to the Arlington Education Center.

By seeking to exclude undocumented students from state-funded schools, Kilgore thwarts efforts by Republican colleagues to help the children of immigrant parents, his critics added.

"We are talking about children who have done nothing wrong, who came here with their parents, who in many cases have lived nearly all their lives in Virginia," said Tisha Tallman, counsel to the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund.

Earlier this week, Kilgore announced he will submit legislation to clarify that illegal aliens are ineligible for in-state tuition rates at state-funded colleges and universities.

The reduced rates can amount to a savings of $6,000 a year, officials said.

Yesterday, Del. Karen L. Darner, D-Arlington, said she will introduce a proposal to compete with Kilgore's. Her dis- trict is about 40 percent Hispanic.

She said her legislation would put into law Virginia's past practice of allowing undocumented students who live here to pay reduced in-state tuition rates. It would mirror similar laws enacted in New York, Utah, California and Texas, she said.[*]

"At a time when other states are recognizing the value of educating all their students, we here in Virginia are facing another form of discrimination," she said.

Earlier in the year, Kilgore's office issued a memorandum urging college presidents to deny admission to undocumented students and to report undocumented students to the Immigration and Naturalization Service.

"As a matter of policy, we just don't think it's too much to ask that people obey the laws of society before they take advantage of what that society has to offer," said Kilgore spokesman Tim Murtaugh.

"To move people who have not followed the law in front of those who have is offensive."

Yesterday's forum was held in part to put a human face on those who would be affected by changes in how illegal immigrants are treated by higher education institutions in Virginia.

Far from being freeloaders or criminals, the vast majority entered the country illegally as small children with their parents, immigrant advocates said.

They have attended Virginia public schools and earned grades good enough to be admitted to college. They speak English and consider themselves Americans, speakers said.

But because their parents came here illegally, the path to citizenship is impeded by sometimes contradictory immigration laws, the advocates said.

For example, before an immigrant becomes a citizen, he must first be a lawful permanent resident for five years. To obtain a permanent resident visa - commonly called a green card - an immigrant must be sponsored by either a family member who is a citizen, or by an employer.

But obtaining a green card is difficult for undocumented students. That's because under immigration law, any person who has been in the country illegally for as little as six months is barred from receiving a visa and subject to being deported.

"A lot of people believe it's just a matter of students not having the will to become citizens, and that's just not so," said Samuel McTyre, chairman of the Immigrant Educational Rights Coalition.

Some congressmen have begun to recognize the barriers facing immigrant students who are undocumented because of actions of their parents.

U.S. Rep. Christopher B. Cannon, R-Utah, sponsored legislation last year that would have allowed some undocumented students to become lawful permanent residents. They would have to be under age 21, be enrolled in the seventh grade or above, reside in the United States for at least five years and demonstrate good moral character.

Though Cannon's legislation was unsuccessful, he plans to try again next year.

"Many of these students have received scholarships and been recruited by colleges and universities, but they have little hope of achieving their goals," Cannon said.

"We should provide a track for these students to obtain legal status so they can pursue their higher education without uncertainty hanging over their heads."

Murtaugh said Kilgore is aware of the federal efforts, but they would not affect his initiatives in Virginia.

"We just want people to obey the law," he said.

Contact Paul Bradley at (703) 548-8758 or


* These Democrats are going to kill us with their handouts. Those of us who pay the taxes cannot keep this up!

Two stories in today's WP:
Fairfax Schools Target Crowding: Seven New Facilities, Renovations Proposed

Fairfax Tax Bills Will Go Up Again: 14% Increase in Property Value Makes 3rd-Straight Double-Digit Rise Likely

7 posted on 12/19/2002 5:06:39 PM PST by Ligeia
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To: Ligeia
Hi Ligeia,

Would you know of any sources where Mr. Kilgore's position on economic & social issues can be found?

8 posted on 12/19/2002 5:16:18 PM PST by jla
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To: jla
Hey, jla. I see they've taken down Kilgore's campaign site. I guess that's so we can't hold him accountable for any campaign promises he made :^)

Here's the link for his official site now. His Virginians for Kilgore PAC has an email list but no website yet according to Google. I know he campaigned as being pro-life and against government spending, growth and pro-tax cuts. Someone else will have to chime in to help you further.

9 posted on 12/19/2002 5:28:50 PM PST by Ligeia
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To: Ligeia
Thanks for posting this, I was out of town this weekend & missed it.

I know a few of my GOP friends are skeptical of Kilgore's ability to win the big prize in '05. I happen to think he is the perfect choice. M Warner chipped away at the natural GOP advantage in the hills and let NoVA & Richmond carry the load for him. All the people from the sticks will turn out big-time for Kilgore against a pro-abortion Richmonder. The rest of the GOP base will be fired up to get the Governor's mansion back.
10 posted on 12/19/2002 7:29:17 PM PST by VaFederalist
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To: Ligeia; Mudboy Slim
Kilgore for Gov in '05!

Virginia FReepers and our out of state supporters should kick off this campaign right now, and dig up all the dirt we can on Tim Kaine ( Re: MUD's post). No holds barred! Kilgore is the best friend that Virginia conservatives have had in a loooooong time.

11 posted on 12/20/2002 8:19:41 AM PST by P8riot
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To: P8riot
"Kilgore for Gov in '05!"

I hopped on that bandwagon the minute I saw Earley had blown his chance last election...Kaine's a sittin' duck, panty-waist, UkropLib'ralButtLickin' RAT of the worst sort!!

We're gonna have Li'l Timmie fer breakfast, lunch and dinner...but not until he's the official nominee. In fact, I've probably already said too much...MUD

12 posted on 12/20/2002 8:26:24 AM PST by Mudboy Slim
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To: itssoamusing
In light of your question on the FR Virginia page regarding the real estate tax increase, you may be interested in the article linked on post 7 on this thread.
13 posted on 12/23/2002 8:03:29 PM PST by Ligeia
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To: Victoria Delsoul; Marine Inspector; FITZ; Ajnin; Pelham; Travis McGee; sarcasm; harpseal; RonDog; ..
Republican lawmakers in Virginia say they will back legislation at the upcoming General Assembly session that would require noncitizens who apply for driver's licenses to prove they are in the country legally.

Isn't it amazing, that on December 23rd, 2002, this legal residency rule had to be written in Virginia?

Or that there is no equivalent rule in some of the other States, such as California?

14 posted on 12/23/2002 8:08:50 PM PST by Sabertooth
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To: kattracks
I wonder if these state politicans got the nod from somewhere in D.C. before they had the nerve to bring up such pro-protect-Americans legislation.

I wonder how much howling there would be if such legislation were brought up in a border state, say like Texas or Arizona for example.

I imagine the Supreme Court would decline to hear a case, should it be brought up, that this state legislation is anti-civil rights, or racist as long as it stays in Va.
15 posted on 12/23/2002 9:19:19 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: Sabertooth
Or that there is no equivalent rule in some of the other States, such as California?

California is badly in need of such a law. There are several million reasons why.

16 posted on 12/23/2002 9:50:39 PM PST by janetgreen
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To: kattracks
Sen. Mary Margaret Whipple, Arlington Democrat, said she did not believe the DMV could make complicated decisions on immigration. "I believe that the Department of Motor Vehicles should be in the business of licensing drivers to operate motor vehicles. I cannot believe that the employees of DMV are capable of making decisions on immigration," she said.

A fellow Border Patrol Agent and good friend of mine has the last name Whipple, and let me tell you something you commie, you are not worthy of the last name Whipple. Most of the illegals that I ask, are actually honest about their status believe it or not. For the DMV, it is just a simple matter of asking the question. "Are you here legally or not?"

17 posted on 12/24/2002 1:54:31 AM PST by Ajnin
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To: Sabertooth
Whenever I see the words "driver license" and "immigrant" in the same headline I get worried. Fortunately, in this case the bar is being lifted. Before 9-11 the bar was being lowered everywhere with illlegal alien invaders being catered too.
18 posted on 12/24/2002 3:53:54 AM PST by dennisw
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To: Sabertooth
Or that there is no equivalent rule in some of the other States, such as California?

The citizens of California passed proposition 187 which made it illegal to provide state services to illegals. It would have forced service providers such as the DMV, hospitals, and schools to deal with the "complicated process of determining whether someone had a legal right to be here". It was struck down by Judge Feltzer, a liberal judge, and when the administration changed in California, the new governor dropped the appeal. Yes, California sadly needs such a law. If the initiative process had not sought to collect all the state services in one law perhaps it would have taken longer for the liberals to knock them out because the sad truth is that the liberals are seeking to tear down this country.

19 posted on 12/24/2002 4:52:57 AM PST by KC_for_Freedom
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To: Sabertooth
Lawmakers back bill on alien licenses

Does this apply to Marvin the Martian also? lol !

20 posted on 12/24/2002 7:18:13 AM PST by MeekOneGOP
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WT Editorial: Virginia A Mecca for License Fraud?
21 posted on 12/29/2002 5:02:34 PM PST by Ligeia
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Tuesday, December 31, 2002
Lawmaker working on revamped bill
Va. board: Skating needs no regulation

Earlier this year, a bill passed in Virginia's legislature that would have required rink owners to stock helmets.


A state board tagged to study roller-skating safety has determined that the roller-skating industry does not need regulation.

The Board for Professional and Occupational Regulation issued a report earlier this month saying that the roller-skating industry needs no regulation, but recommended that the legislature set minimum safety standards.

Jim Anderson, owner of FunQuest roller-skating center in Lynchburg, was pleased with the board's conclusion.

Many rink operators adhere to standards set by the industry's trade organization, the Roller Skating Association, Anderson said.

"We already follow them on a voluntary basis," he said.

Sen. Marty Williams, R-Newport News, who introduced the initial bill, plans to introduce a new safety bill during the next legislative session, said Emily Swenson, his legislative aide.

The new bill, which is in draft form, would not require rink operators to provide helmets for skaters or make owners train floor guards to give emergency care. The bill also sets a higher ratio for floor guards, establishing one for every 200 skaters, Swenson said.

"It's totally friendly with the roller-skating industry now," Swenson said. "It has a lot less regulations. It's more suggestive."

The board made its decision after three public hearings in Virginia, including one in Roanoke in October.

The contentious issue surfaced this year, as a bill rolled through Virginia's legislature that required rink owners to have helmets for skaters.

The parents of 5-year-old Clark Guye inspired the bill. Clark Guye died in February 2001 while skating at the Peninsula Family Skating Center in Newport News. He fell and struck the back of his head, which medical examiners said caused his death.

When Clark's parents, Dawn and Gary Guye, learned there were no roller-skating safety laws in Virginia, the couple began pushing for change. Their focus has been to require children to wear helmets while skating.

Williams introduced the Roller Skating Safety Act, or Clark's Law, earlier this year. Clark's Law, which passed in the Senate and the House, required rink owners to make helmets available, train floor guards in emergency first aid, and provide one floor guard for every 100 skaters. But the legislature put brakes on the bill, directing it to the board to study the "feasibility and appropriateness" of regulating roller-skating rinks.

Most rink operators complained about the bill's helmet requirement.

Virginia doesn't require bike riders to wear helmets, they said. Also, outdoor skating caused more injuries and deaths than indoor skating, they said. The bill only focused on indoor skating.

Helmets would also cost operators too much, some said. They preferred that parents bring helmets for their children.

Buying helmets would have cost Dan McCarty, owner of Star City Skate and Play in Roanoke, nearly $15,000, he wrote the board.

The helmet requirement would have been "devastating" to an industry already facing a decline in business, McCarty said in a written statement to the board.

Dawn Guye worked with Williams' aides and a few skating rink owners to draft the new bill.

Guye hopes the bill makes people aware of the need for helmet use while skating, she said. A helmet might have saved Clark's life.
Since this thread is doubling as a Virginia General Assembly Agenda thread, I'm posting other articles relating to GA issues. We gotta watch them or they'll pass more nanny-state regulations.

22 posted on 01/02/2003 11:57:45 AM PST by Ligeia
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To: Mudboy Slim
Mud, since the Virginia General Assembly is convening January 8, would you mind using your Virginia ping list and let's get everyone aware of pending legislation via this thread? Muchisimas gracias por todo.

Bills and Resolutions:
(hundreds, if not thousands of them!)

4 N.Va. Delegates Make Strong Push to Right
Outer-Suburb Republicans Generate High Bill Volume
By Michael D. Shear
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, January 3, 2003; Page B05

RICHMOND, Jan. 2 -- Four members of the House of Delegates from Northern Virginia's outer suburbs are aggressively pursuing an agenda for the upcoming General Assembly session that includes further restrictions on abortion, lower taxes, easier and cheaper access to concealed weapon permits and changes in transportation financing. [bravo!]

The four Republican delegates -- Mark L. Cole of Fredericksburg, Richard H. Black of Loudoun County and Robert G. Marshall and L. Scott Lingamfelter of Prince William County -- are the chief patrons of about one-fourth of the bills filed so far by the 100 House members. The deadline for filing bills is still two weeks away, and all four delegates say they are busy printing more legislation. [conservatives working to roll back decades of liberal excess...]

~ snip ~

The four lawmakers, two veterans and two relative newcomers, represent the surge in conservatism in Virginia's legislature. The GOP took control of both chambers in 1999 and has steadily added to its ranks since. [and they've done it by pursuing an unapoligetically conservative agenda] In special elections last year to fill vacancies in the 40-member Senate, Northern Virginia replaced a moderate Republican and a Democrat with two conservative Republicans. [pinching myself...]

~ snip ~

But Moran acknowledged that Democrats are outnumbered in the House, where Republicans and independents who caucus with them hold an edge of 66 to 34. Abortion restrictions and gun rights legislation have passed easily in the House. The Senate has been less friendly to such bills in recent years.

"The House over the last few years has become very receptive to a conservative social agenda," Moran said. "We would hope the Senate would use good judgment." [wiping smirk off my face...]

Republicans say the Senate elections of Ken Cuccinelli and James K. "Jay" O'Brien Jr. of Fairfax give the GOP agenda the edge there as well. [Finally!]

~ snip ~

Lots more Dem gnashing of teeth here:
23 posted on 01/03/2003 11:45:20 AM PST by Ligeia
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To: Ligeia; kristinn; Angelwood; LiberteeBell; 1 Olgoat; 103198; 11Bush; 1234; a6intruder; aculeus; ...
Howdy Old Dominion FReepers...while we must remain vigilant in following the National legislation, I hope y'all are keeping abreast of the pending State legislation as well. We're blessed with a great House lineup of true conservatives who will be pressing the MilquetoastModerates in the Senate and our RAT Guv'nuh to pass some excellent legislation!! Please check out ligeia's post #23 fer some details and be confident in the knowledge that your voices do matter to these State reps, so let's not be shy in telling them what we think!!

Virginia can lead the way in peeling back years of unnecessary BigGuv'mentLargesse so let's not allow the State Senate to hold up what we know must be done. The VA Senate RINOs need to know that we are watching their efforts to stall legislation, and we'll remember their recalcitrance in November of this year!!

Old Dominion FReegards...MUD

24 posted on 01/03/2003 12:26:07 PM PST by Mudboy Slim
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To: Mudboy Slim
Thanks, Mud! WMAL reported today that Sen. Allen has a cameo in "Gods and Generals" as an officer on R.E. Lee's staff. Allen has no lines but he gets to do something he's good at: SPIT TOBACCO!! We gotta find a pic of that!
25 posted on 01/03/2003 1:08:41 PM PST by Ligeia
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Jan 03, 2003

U.S. senators have cameos in Civil War film

Associated Press Writer

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) _ Sen. George Allen is one of the U.S. senators with a few seconds of face time as Confederate officers in a Civil War movie that opens next month.

Virginia's Republican junior senator has a nonspeaking role of an unnamed Rebel on the staff of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee in "Gods and Generals," a feature film based on the best-selling historical novel of the same title by Jeff Shaara.

The book is set amid the battles of Fredericksburg and the Wilderness campaign and focuses on Confederate Gens. Lee and Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson and Union commanders Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain and Winfield Scott Hancock.

The film stars Robert Duvall as Lee and Jeff Daniels as Chamberlain, the role he played in the 1993 film "Gettysburg" based on the book "The Killer Angels" by Shaara's father, Michael Shaara.

Allen is difficult to recognize costumed in the gray uniform and wearing a fake mustache, said the senator's spokeswoman, Carrie Cantrell. In the movie, he's sitting amid a group of Confederates, she said.

"Actually, he's cast doing something he does well: spitting tobacco," said Julie Rautio, a freelance publicist coordinating a fund-raising event tied to the Feb. 18 premiere of the film in Richmond. Allen occasionally uses smokeless tobacco.

Proceeds from the fund-raiser will benefit Civil War historical site preservation and the African-American History Museum, said Rautio, who served on Allen's press staff when he was governor.

Sen. Robert Byrd, D-W.Va., and former Sen. Phil Gramm, R-Texas, are also cast as Rebel brass, also largely unrecognizable in period costume and makeup, Cantrell said.

Allen is not the only member of his family in the movie. His son, Forrest, was also an extra for the film.

Allen had no choice over his role, Cantrell said. "They just handed him the uniform and told him to put it on," she said.


26 posted on 01/03/2003 1:11:11 PM PST by Ligeia
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To: Ligeia
Gotta love George Allen...LOL!!

(To be sung to the Beatles' "Hey Jude")

It's true!! The Left's been had...
Took a bad man and made him Prez'dent.
You Lib'rals, you let Slick into yer heart...
Now we must start to make it better!!
Poltroons, don't be afraid...
Righteous shall just go out and GIT HIM!!
The minute we accept Bill's corruption,
Then Slick will win...we'll 've sanctified SIN!!

Yeah, Willie says, "I feel yer pain."
Poltroons, be sane!! Don't tell me The World Will End Without him!
And don't you know y'all look like FOOLS, you shameless TOOLS,
Repeatin' lyin' words...yer part in Slick's Spin!!
Dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah...

Hey News, you let US down...
Bill's a Felon...let's go and GIT HIM!!
Leftist Medyuh, you shouldda known from the start...
Still, there's time to report, unless yer all blinded!!

So sing out loud about Slick's sins...
Poltroons...DIG IN!! We're looking fer someone to believe in!!
Folks, don't you know Bill Clinton's screwed?!
Networks, you too!!
Left's Template offends all Good Americans!!
Nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nah Yeah...

Poltroons, don't look so sad...
Bill's a bad man, he'll go to Prison!!
You Lib'rals, you best be runnin' from Slick...
Or next election...will be a slaughter, slaughter, slaughter, slaughter,
Slaughter, slaughter...oooh!!
Yeh yeh yeh yeh yeh yeh yeh...dah dah dah dah...dah dah dah dah...
Poltroons...dah dah dah dah dah dah dah...

Mudboy Slim (4 August 1998)

27 posted on 01/03/2003 1:34:47 PM PST by Mudboy Slim
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To: Ligeia
Re: your #22.

For crying out loud! Gimme a freakin' break. It's dangerous to walk across the street too. When are people going to start taking responsibility for themselves instead of whining for the government to hold thier little hands? I'm sorry that kid died after cracking his head open but helmets have been available for years. Why didn't those parents slap a helmet on the kid themselves instead of asking the government to do it for them???!!!

I'm not fussing at you, of course. Just the ludicrous nature of this whole thing.
28 posted on 01/03/2003 2:11:39 PM PST by iceskater
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To: iceskater
No kidding. There are two threads running here today, one about a tragedy on the ski slope (no helmet) and another about a girl killed by jumping on the bed in a pillow fight. Sadly, she fell and knocked her head (again, no helmet). There are risks in life. No helmets for living life, and no helmets at the roller rink!
29 posted on 01/03/2003 2:22:03 PM PST by Ligeia
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To: Darnright
The flagging system over on the Virginia page doesn't work for me. I don't know if anyone else is having that problem as well. I took the liberty to post the column you linked to over here in an effort andvance the discussion and visibility. I hope it helps.

JAN. 2, 2003
Increase in license fees unlikely

The task of the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries during the 2003 General Assembly will be to hold onto the funding that it has. It doesn’t appear that it will receive any significant new revenue.

In October, the agency began promoting an increase in hunting and freshwater fishing license fees. It proposed a $12.50 to $15.50 boost in the price of basic licenses, which would be the first such increase since 1988. That would raise an estimated $4.5 million in revenue needed to replace some of the agency’s funds that have been diverted to the General Fund during the economic crunch.

The plan, which would require approval by the General Assembly, received the blessing of Gov. Mark Warner. What it doesn’t have is the support of Vic Thomas, D-Roanoke, perhaps the one man who could pull if off.

Through the years, Thomas has provided more financial support for the DGIF than any other person in the history of the state. He is the obvious choice to carry the banner for a license increase.

But Thomas told me that he has no plans to sponsor a bill to increase licenses, nor would he support such efforts by another legislator. That appears to make the license boost a dead issue even before the General Assembly convenes.

Lacking leadership, the idea simply hasn’t capture the fancy of anglers across the state, nor did the DGIF attempt to make it happen after a few of its feelers led nowhere. To be successful, a license bill would require the endorsement of major angling and fishing groups. Such organizations have supported the DGIF in the past, but they were quiet this time.

The prevailing concern is that any new money brought into the DGIF coffers would see an equal amount diverted to the General Fund to pay for programs not related to the outdoors. The 2002 General Assembly reduced the DGIF budget by $2 million and Gov. Warner has announced plans to reduce it by another $4.1 million over the next two fiscal years. Outdoors enthusiasts are hurt over this and are asking, "Why bother promoting new funds if they come in one door and go out the other?"

The lack of support for a license increase is more a matter of timing and economic conditions than need, said Thomas. It is an issue for the future.

Unfortunately for outdoors enthusiasts, Thomas isn’t likely to be in place as a legislator in the future. He has told friends that this probably will be his last session because he probably will not run for re-election. He wants to retire and move to rural Craig County, where he has a cabin next to a trout stream and where long ago he served as a deputy game warden for the county.

In the meanwhile, DGIF will be operating as a downsized organization with a $41 million budget. That won’t allow for many frills; in fact, there will be cutbacks to programs that will have a real impact on how we enjoy the outdoors.

Virginia already is reported to spend less on environmental protection than any other state. That hole will only get deeper each time the axe is applied to natural resource programs.

Virginia needs to find bold new ways to finance natural resource programs. For more than 50 years, license buying hunters and anglers have borne the financial burden. All citizens benefit from DGIF programs; therefore, all citizens should help fund them.

30 posted on 01/03/2003 3:10:15 PM PST by Ligeia
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To: The Obstinate Insomniac
>>Sen. Mary Margaret Whipple, Arlington Democrat, said she did not believe the DMV could make complicated decisions on immigration.
"I believe that the Department of Motor Vehicles should be in the business of licensing drivers to operate motor vehicles. I cannot believe that the employees of DMV are capable of making decisions on immigration," she said.<<

Oh, but the DMV is good enough at registering voters, which is fine with the DumoRats. Any way, Markie Warner has closed half the DMV offices in the state (the ones in primarily Republican districts, btw, how convenient).
31 posted on 01/03/2003 8:42:29 PM PST by Darnright
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To: P8riot
Jerry Kilgore in the news:

Jan 04, 2003

Kilgore: No law blocks statue


Attorney General Jerry W. Kilgore said yesterday that Confederate sympathizers who want to block a statue of Abraham Lincoln from being erected in Richmond are rebels without a cause.

"I am unaware of any state law that would allow Virginia to prevent the placement of the statue of President Abraham Lincoln at a federal park," Kilgore said.

At the same time, Kilgore said he hoped the discussion about the statue would enable both sides to develop a "new respect and mutual forbearance . . . between those who claim the heritage of Lincoln and those who claim the heritage of Lee."

The U.S. Historical Society has proposed placing a life-size bronze statue of Lincoln at the National Park Service's Richmond National Battlefield Park Civil War Visitor Center, which is on the grounds of the former Tredegar Iron Works. Tredegar supplied guns and munitions for the Confederacy.

Confederate heritage groups, outraged at what they considered a slap at Southern heritage, found a state law that they felt could block the effort.

Del. Richard H. Black, R-Loudoun, agreed to seek an attorney general's opinion on the law, putting Kilgore, a potential Republican candidate for governor, on the spot.

The law, dealing with war memorials, prohibits placing Union markings or monuments on Confederate memorials, or vice versa.

Since Tredegar is a monument to the Confederate armorer, the heritage groups said that would prohibit the Lincoln statue from being placed there.

Kilgore said he had not received a formal request from Black for an opinion but noted that Ethyl Corp. owns the property in question. The federal park service leases the property from Ethyl.

This would remove the statue from consideration as a state issue, he said.

Noting that icons and figures from the Civil War mean different things to different people, Kilgore added: "I am of the belief that you cannot have a significant discussion of the history of the war without presenting all sides. Unfortunately, passions have clouded a reasoned and tolerant discussion of this era and the war."

He said he hoped that as the discussion about the statue continues, "all Virginians would seek to learn the truth about the causes, events, personalities and effects of the war."

David Ruth, assistant superintendent of the park service, noted that Tredegar supplied armor to the federal government before and after the Civil War.

Contact Tyler Whitley at (804) 649-6780 or



There were online polls running at the RTD and the Virginian-Pilot, both running against the Lincoln statue 3:1.

32 posted on 01/04/2003 7:30:39 AM PST by Ligeia
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To: shuckmaster; stainlessbanner; Aurelius
Have you all been following the subsequent discussion regarding the proposed Lincoln statue in Richmond? It promises to be the most interesting debate this General Assembly session which begins Wednesday.

Jan 05, 2003

STAYING COOL UNDER FIRE: Statue advocate hopeful

He played major role in funding Museum of the Confederacy

Plans to erect a statue of Abraham Lincoln in Richmond have made longtime Richmonder Robert H. "Bob" Kline the target of e-mail potshots fired by scads of unreconstructed Southerners, including some members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans organization.

One example:

Sir: The placing of a statue of Lincoln in the capital of the Confederacy is akin to erecting a statue of Tojo at the USS Arizona Memorial. Your plans for Richmond are ill-conceived, insensitive and insulting.

That was one of the milder missives.

Bob Kline, an Illinois native who has lived in Richmond for nearly 50 years, is under attack because he is chairman of the United States Historical Society, a Richmond-based, nonprofit organization that specializes in creating a variety of items related to American history.

The society recently announced it has commissioned a sculptor to create a life-sized bronze statue of Lincoln sitting on a bench beside his young son, Tad.

The statue will commemorate Lincoln's visit to Richmond on April 5, 1865 - two days after Union troops captured the smoldering city and four days before the Civil War ended.

If all goes according to plan, the statue will be unveiled April 5 at the National Park Service's Richmond National Battlefield Park Civil War Visitors Center on the grounds of the old Tredegar Iron Works. Tredegar was a major supplier of munitions to the Confederate army.

Kline, a soft-spoken U.S. Navy veteran of World War II and the Korean War, is taking the criticism in stride.

"I knew this project would stir up some people," he said.

But the passionate anger expressed by some critics has not cooled Kline on the project. He is convinced a statue of Lincoln in Richmond is a fitting commemoration of an important moment in the city's storied history.

"We have had lots of positive feedback, too," he said.

One proponent wrote, in part, as follows:

Dear Mr. Kline: I am a born and bred southerner living in Manassas, Virginia. I am a Civil War re-enactor serving with a primarily Confederate unit that also does a Federal impression . . . As someone with a deep appreciation of my southern heritage, I became aware of the controversy around your Lincoln statue and the organized opposition by some groups such as the Sons of Confederate Veterans. The Civil War is over! We are all now Americans. I support your laudable goal to point to healing the wounds.

Kline finds it somewhat amusing that people who emphasize the importance of honoring their Confederate heritage are verbally slamming him and the U.S. Historical Society.

Over the years, the society has produced an enormous amount of collectible items related to the major figures of the Confederacy. One example: A reproduction of Robert E. Lee's pistol.

As for Kline, he played a major role in the fund-raising campaign that built the new Museum of the Confederacy beside the White House of the Confederacy in the early 1970s.

"We raised the money to build that museum," he said.

"We" refers to Morrison and Kline, then a Richmond public-relations firm in which Kline was a partner. The firm came up with a project that enabled the campaign to reach its goal of $1 million - a goal that one precampaign study had determined was too high.

"The study was wrong," Kline said.

Kline's firm oversaw the mass production of 10 collector plates related to American history. Some 1,200 matched sets of plates were sold at $900 a set, thus raising over $1 million.

The U.S. Historical Society was organized in 1973 as the U.S. Bicentennial Society. The name was changed two years later.

Kline was one of the founding fathers, along with Virginius Dabney, the late Pulitzer Prize-winning historian who was a longtime editor of the Richmond Times-Dispatch.

From the beginning, the society has had headquarters in a late-19th-century building on the southwest corner of First and Main streets in downtown Richmond. The building was also the home of the Morrison and Kline public-relations firm until it folded.

Kline grew up in Dixon, Ill., a small town about 90 miles due west of Chicago. One of the town's claims to fame is that Ronald Reagan spent part of his youth living there.

After graduating from Beloit College in Wisconsin in 1943, Kline was commissioned an officer in the Navy. While stationed in Norfolk, he met Jean Pollard, who became his wife.

After World War II, the couple wound up in Richmond, where Kline worked as a reporter for the city's afternoon newspaper, The Richmond News Leader.

He was called back to active duty for the Korean War in the early 1950s. When that ended, he eventually returned to Richmond to work for an advertising agency.

Although the U.S. Historical Society has been a fixture in Richmond for 30 years, many people know little or nothing about it.

"Our main focus is historical education," said Marty Moran, the society's president.

The society produces and sells miniature figures and dolls of historical figures, and reproductions of historical items such as Thomas Jefferson's telescope, the sword George Washington had at his first inauguration, and the pistols used by Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr in their duel, in which Hamilton was mortally wounded.

The society has nonprofit status because it donates part of its proceeds to other nonprofit organizations.

"One of our longest-running associations has been with the Boy Scouts," Moran said.

Some years ago, the society donated nearly $55,000 to Special Olympics International. The money was raised by selling items commemorating the 100th anniversary of golf in America.

Once the Lincoln statue is in place, Kline wants to consider the possibility of creating another statue with a Civil War theme that could be placed at Tredegar.

"I really think it would be nice to have a statue of a Union soldier and a Confederate soldier facing each other and maybe shaking hands," he said.

Contact Steve Clark at (804) 649-6724 or



Dead president remains a threat to Richmond

January 5, 2003 1:08 am


Mike Zitz
The Free Lance-Star

OK, SO WE Southerners are not good losers. Stafford High School student Javier Aponte wrote a letter to the editor this week wondering why so many of his classmates choose to wear T-shirts and baseball caps and "'do rags" adorned with the Confederate flag.

" Let's face it," Javier wrote, "that flag didn't stand for things that are the greatest."

He's concerned that this fashion statement could hurt the feelings of some wimps worried about the symbolism of the Rebel flag. These weenies are put off by the idea that if the South had won the war, manual labor and household help would be much cheaper. Well, actually, it would be free.

This is, after all, the 21st century, Javier wrote. The last time Javier checked his history book, the Civil War was fought in the 19th century. And, as Javier--who is a credit to the Stafford school system--points out, the South lost.

Javier, Javier, Javier.

If you don't like it here, why don't you move to a state in the Union?


Just kidding, Javier.

But really, it's rude to remind us that we came up a little short back in 1865.

Besides, it's not important whether you win or lose, but how you play the game. So what if we were using slaves to do the work back home while Johnny Reb went out to fight? Didn't Gen. Robert E. Lee cut a dashing figure? And how about that Rebel yell? Woooo! WOOOOOO!!

I mean, so what if to hundreds of millions of people here and around the world, the Confederate flag stands for buying and selling human beings? It's our heritage, baby. Woooo! WOOOOO!!

Anyway, if it's sensitivity Javier is looking for, he'd better think about living in Vermont, not Virginia.

Because if anyone thought that two world wars, Korea and Vietnam might have shaken the Old Dominion's allegiance to the Confederacy, they can forget it. And if anyone thought all those American flag decals that appeared on pickup trucks following Sept. 11 meant that the Confederate flag had been eclipsed, they can forget that, too.

Nearly 140 years after the end of the Civil War, there's a controversy broiling over a bronze statue of Abraham Lincoln and son Tad that's supposed to be unveiled at the Civil War Visitor Center of the National Park Service in Richmond in April.

The event will mark the 138th anniversary of a visit to the capital of the Confederacy by Lincoln and his son, five days before the end of the Civil War. At the time, the city was still smoldering after being abandoned in flames by Southern forces. Lincoln was assassinated 10 days later.

The head of the United States Historical Society, which commissioned the statue, has said it reunites "a national hero, a small boy, and a beautiful city," according to The Associated Press.

But a group called the Sons of Confederate Veterans has said the idea is "a slap in the face" to those who fought against Lincoln's "invasion of Virginia."

Some might dismiss that as isolated, nut-job extremism.

But it's not.

On Friday, a whopping 67 percent of 35,000 Virginians responding to an online poll by the Virginian Pilot opposed the Lincoln statue being installed in Richmond.

OK, Javier. We know what you're thinking. Yes, Lincoln may have been our greatest president. Yes, he gave his life for his country. Yes, it IS the 21st century. And yes, we're about to go to war as a nation, together, both North and South.

But do you really expect us to just sit idly by while a 2-ton Lincoln with brass knuckles invades Richmond?

If we don't hold the line in Richmond, the next thing you know, there will be statues of Franklin D. Roosevelt in Charlottesville and John F. Kennedy in Fredericksburg.

Whatever the cost may be, we shall fight the Yankee statues on the beaches; we shall fight them in the parks and on the streets. And we shall never, ever surrender.

MICHAEL ZITZ is a staff writer for the Life section. You can write to him c/o The Free Lance-Star, 616 Amelia St., Fredericksburg, Va. 22401; send e-mail to; or call 374-5408.

Background thread:
Yes, Lincoln, Yes, Here - Historical Society Plans Lincoln Statue in Richmond Virginia

33 posted on 01/05/2003 3:39:40 PM PST by Ligeia
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To: Gopher Broke
Northern Virginia legislators will submit a slew of bills during the next General Assembly session to raise cigarette taxes, increase Internet “spamming” penalties and limit property tax increases.

The 45-day session begins Wednesday, Jan. 8, at the state capitol in Richmond. This year’s General Assembly actions are especially important because all 100 seats in the House of Delegates and 40 in the State Senate are up for re-election on Nov. 4.

State Sen. Janet Howell (D-32nd) will sponsor a bill to tax cigarette manufacturers 4 cents per pack, a measure she estimated would raise $364 million per year.

“In Virginia, we produce more than 180 billion cigarettes per year,” she said. “Under my bill, the money would go into a trust fund for public school construction and renovation.”

Howell said she expected Virginia’s tobacco lobby to oppose the bill, but said the impact on state residents would be modest because most of the cigarettes are sold elsewhere in the world.

Howell also will sponsor a bill to require all clergy members to report suspected child abuse and neglect. “Clergy of all faiths, if they suspect abuse and neglect, will be required to report it, like teachers and social workers do now,” she said.

Another of Howell’s bills would make Virginia’s protective orders, which shield victims from their abusers, conform with those in other states. “The idea is to make it uniform across the country,” she said.

Del. James Scott (D-53rd) will submit a bill to base the state’s transportation financing formula on vehicle registrations instead of lane miles or vehicle miles traveled. “That will get closer to real problem of congestion and address it,” he said.

Another of Scott’s bills would prohibiting the reporting of presidential election results until polls close in states east of Mississippi. The bill, which Scott said is designed to prevent election-calling mishaps like those in Florida during the 2000 presidential race, passed the House of Delegates last year and was killed in the Senate.

Del. Jeannemarie Devolites (R-35th), who next year plans to run for the open 34th District State Senate seat, said she will submit an anti-spamming law with criminal penalties.

“The fines just aren’t working,” Devolites said of regulations designed to protect Internet users from bulk e-mailings. “We need jail time.”

Devolites also will continue her work on public access to court records via the Internet. Critics of unfettered access say divorce papers, land-use documents and other records often contain Social Security numbers, credit card information and other items much sought by identity thieves.

Devolites will suggest the records have a removable cover sheet containing sensitive personal information and that the records be accessible via subscription.

Del. Vincent Callahan (R-34th) will submit bills this year to increase retirement payments to state employees, make it easier for independent candidates to get petition signatures, and ease the residency requirements for unpaid election workers.

Another of Callahan’s bills would change the name of the Capitol Hostesses to the Capitol Tour Guides. Callahan said the new name is designed to be gender-neutral and inclusive of current staff members.

As chairman of the House Appropriations Committee, Callahan’s biggest duty will be balancing the state budget, which has been hit with lower-than-expected revenues and increasing Medicaid costs.

As Fairfax County homeowners brace for the third straight year of double-digit property tax increases, some activists are pushing for bills that would limit property tax increases to 5 percent.

Peter Ferrara, president of Virginia Club for Growth, said he will lobby hard for bills to limit property tax increases to 5 percent.

“All over the country, where they’ve put this on the ballot, it wins overwhelmingly – even in liberal states,” he said. “Legislators will oppose it at their peril.”

Ferrara also will push to eliminate Virginia’s estate tax. “It’s an unfair tax and counterproductive and the people know it,” he said.

Members of Northern Virginia’s legislative delegation will hold a public meeting on Saturday, Jan. 4 , at 9 a.m. at the Fairfax County Government Center. Howell, Scott and Callahan also will meet with constituents on Saturday, Jan. 11, at 10 a.m. at Longfellow Middle School in McLean.


Fairfax County Clerk of the Court John Frey remembers the time he led a Russian delegation on a tour of the county’s courthouse.

When Frey pointed out people researching public records, a guest remarked, “It’s just like the KGB.”

Frey quickly took issue. “I told them anyone in the country could see this,” he said. “Our system is based on open records. The average guy can see whether he’s being treated the same as the wealthy and famous.”

Digital records have saved many important documents from ruin and the Internet potentially can make them available to anyone instantly. That’s good, unless the person is a criminal bent on using the information for ill gain.

Virginia lawmakers are trying to make it harder for identity thieves and other criminals to glean personal and financial data from public court records.

Open government advocates, however, want to ensure that public information remains as unrestricted as possible.

“It’s the old issue of [the] devil is in the details,” said Forrest Lamdon, executive director of the Virginia Coalition of Open Government. “Our position is the same for all records, that as much information as possible should be placed online for easy access for all citizens.”

Del. Jeannemarie Devolites (R-35th) will submit a bill next year to extend the General Assembly’s Internet joint subcommittee’s life for another year.

“Virginia should have done this a long time ago,” Devolites said. “Before, clerks of court knew everybody in town. Now we must look at accessibility of court records generally.”

Proponents of restricting information point to the veritable treasure trove of personal information available in court files. For example, divorce records list financial transactions, property data and family information.

Although many state court officials are wary of Internet access, the 27-member Judicial Conference of the United States voted in September to offer remote access to almost all electronic documents in civil and bankruptcy cases. Only the litigants’ Social Security numbers would be omitted.

Federal judge Sam Wilson of Roanoke has proposed uniform access rules for Internet and paper files, including immediate access to electronic filings in criminal cases, according to the Virginia Coalition of Open Government’s Web site.

Circuit courts in more than 50 Virginia localities offer basic information on thousands of active criminal and civil cases.

Frey said Internet access is far different from having to traipse down to the courthouse to look up records. In-person research requires effort, persistence and familiarity with the judicial system. Lazy people who wish to spy on their neighbors need not apply.

Frey said Fairfax County already allows computer access to land records, but only through private Internet accounts that charge $25 per month and require passwords. The idea is not only to weed out the nosy, but also to protect the county’s computer system from hackers, he said.

Frey said he will encourage lawmakers to proceed cautiously with electronic records.

“It’s a daunting task,” he said.


Somewhat related thread:
Newspaper Publishes Names and Addresses of CCW Holders

34 posted on 01/06/2003 6:21:34 PM PST by Ligeia
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To: Ligeia; flicker; yankhater
"But do you really expect us to just sit idly by while a 2-ton Lincoln with brass knuckles invades Richmond?"

Well, letter writers to the RTD have been quite irate about this the past couple days!

35 posted on 01/09/2003 9:39:34 PM PST by sultan88 (Hadleyville is still a peaceful town.)
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To: Sabertooth
I guess the only question I have on this would be how exactly a DMV clerk will differentiate between a non-citizen and a citizen in order to obtain proof of legal residence or citizenship?

Let's say it's time for my little brother and you both to renew your licenses.

Will you be required to prove citizenship as I am sure he will be?
36 posted on 01/09/2003 9:44:36 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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To: kattracks; Maedhros; Scholastic; chambley1
Related threads:
Bill offers in-state tuition to illegals [Washington Times]

Arlington, Virginia Delegate Offers Bill Giving Illegal Immigrants In-State Tuition Rates [WMAL Radio]

I've been redistricted out of one bad district into another. I am now in Leslie Byrne's district, the goofball who tried last year to outlaw sleeping in La-Z-Boy recliners in the den. Anyone wishing to find out who his or her senator or delegate is can find out at the link
Who are my Legislators?
Find out Here - Type in street address and zip code

37 posted on 01/14/2003 3:10:15 PM PST by Ligeia
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To: VaFederalist
Someone needs to tell Tim Hugo we didn't elect him to play nursemaid.


Warner Faces Close Vote on Seatbelt Bill

"I like what the governor is doing on the budget, but I disagree with him on this one," said Del. Albert C. Pollard Jr. D-Lancaster. "The issue is: Where does government stop? Could this be used as an arbitrary measure by policemen to stop drivers?"

Added Del. Jackie T. Stump, D-Buchanan County: "We've got plenty of laws on the books, quite honestly. In government, we push too many things. We can't be every brother's keeper."

Warner will get support from some House Republicans. Del. Thomas M. Bolvin and Del. Timothy D. Hugo, both from Fairfax County, said they will vote for the bill. [mandatory seat belts]

38 posted on 01/19/2003 7:32:16 PM PST by Ligeia
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To: kattracks
Sen. James "Jay" O'Brien, Fairfax Republican, supports linking license-expiration dates with non-immigrant visas to help identify illegal aliens

Well ill be dipped in butter they are taking steps to quell this problem now i only have one question will it be 1 step foreward and 2 back or will they flat out run with it?

39 posted on 01/19/2003 7:37:45 PM PST by ATOMIC_PUNK (The Fellowship of Conservatives)
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To: kattracks
No tuition breaks for illegals

Washington Times House Editorial
Published January 19, 2003

Delegate Karen Darner, Arlington Democrat, is very unhappy with Virginia Attorney General Jerry Kilgore for suggesting that the state require illegal immigrants to pay higher out-of-state tuition rates. Miss Darner is sponsoring legislation that would permit state colleges to offer in-state tuition rates to illegal immigrants who graduated from a Virginia high school and agree to apply to become a permanent resident.

The difference between in-state and out-of-state tuitions can be huge. As this newspaper recently reported, Virginia Tech charges $480.24 for three credit hours for in-state students and $1,682.49 for out-of-state students. The Northern Virginia Community College system charges $169.69 for in-state students and $607.41 for out-of-state ones.

Some illegal alien students will have to pay more due in large part to the criminal irresponsibility of their parents, who made the conscious decision to violate U.S. immigration law by residing illegally in this country. A serious question can be raised as to whether Mr. Kilgore's suggestion goes far enough, and whether people in this country illegally should be attending Virginia state schools at all. Virginia taxpayers subsidize the cost of each student enrolled in Virginia colleges and universities in the amount of $6,000 a year.

Delegate Thelma Drake, Norfolk Republican, who has drafted a bill supporting Mr. Kilgore's position, points to another inequity that stems from the practice of permitting illegal aliens to receive lower in-state tuition: Thousands of military families stationed temporarily in Virginia must pay out-of-state tuition. This means that many of the people in her district are military spouses and dependents who take courses at local colleges. Because most keep their residences in their home states, they are ineligible for the in-state rates.

This is quite simply outrageous. Military spouses and dependents deserve lower in-state rates. And Virginia lawmakers should reject Miss Darner's proposal and require that illegal aliens pay the higher out-of-state tuition rates.

40 posted on 01/19/2003 7:52:16 PM PST by Ligeia
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To: Ligeia
Seatbelt bill died in committee today.
41 posted on 01/23/2003 3:52:55 PM PST by VaFederalist
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To: VaFederalist
BravO! Thanks for letting me know. Conservatives are knockin'em dead this year.
42 posted on 01/23/2003 4:25:39 PM PST by Ligeia
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To: allend; xsmommy
Good news on the Life bills this year.

With ''veto-proof'' majority, state abortion foes optimistic
By LOUIS HANSEN, The Virginian-Pilot
© January 22, 2003
Last updated: 12:44 AM


At least two dozen bills related to abortion have been offered by the General Assembly. Here are some prominent abortion-related measures.

Supported by abortion opponents:

SB1124: Requires a physician to obtain written consent from a parent before performing an abortion on a girl under the age of 18. Expands on a law passed in 1996 requiring parental notification, with exceptions for cases of abuse.

SB1205: Bans the so-called ``partial-birth abortion'' procedure, and redefines ``live birth'' to an earlier period in pregnancy.

HB2367: Requires abortion clinics to comply with more costly and strict requirements on building size. Opponents say no clinics in the state would meet the proposed requirements. A House panel on Tuesday approved the measure.

Supported by pro-choice advocates:

SB1104: States that contraception will not be governed by the same rules as abortion. The bill would protect contraceptives from the restrictions placed on abortion.

Enter the numbers above in the Bill Tracker to read the bills and follow their progress.

RICHMOND -- Consensus is rare in debates about abortion, but leaders on both sides of the issue agree that access to the procedure is likely to narrow in Virginia this year.

The addition of two conservatives to the state Senate this winter might give the General Assembly a veto-proof majority in favor of establishing new abortion restrictions.

Longtime activists on both sides of the debate say it is all but assured that the General Assembly will pass laws requiring physicians to obtain parental consent before ending the pregnancies of minors, outlawing so-called partial-birth abortions, and requiring abortion clinics to adhere to expensive structural standards.

``I think it is a breakthrough year not just in Virginia but across the nation,'' said Anne B. Kincaid, a state anti-abortion lobbyist for 15 years. ``The truth is prevailing.''

Bennet Greenberg, a lobbyist for Planned Parenthood Advocates of Virginia, an abortion-rights organization, seemed pessimistic.

``They've been chipping away,'' he said. ``Pretty soon, the chips are going to become chunks.''

Today marks the 30th anniversary of the Roe vs. Wade decision, which made abortion legal.

Abortions have declined in Virginia and nationwide since 1996, according to The Alan Guttmacher Institute in New York. The nonprofit organization tracks sexual and reproductive health issues, and its studies have been accepted by advocates on both sides of the debate.

Guttmacher researchers believe the decline is due to the increased use of emergency contraception, such as the morning-after pill.

The number of abortions in Virginia peaked at 35,000 in 1981 and has since declined, according to the institute. About 28,000 abortions were performed in 2000, the last year of available data.

The decrease has not quieted the debate.

At least two dozen bills to limit access to abortion will be considered by the General Assembly this year. The most prominent and controversial include parental-consent requirements for minors and a ban on the so-called ``partial birth abortion.''

A ban on that procedure, in which a fetus is partly delivered, passed the General Assembly last year, only to be vetoed by Gov. Mark R. Warner. The House overrode the veto, but the Senate fell three short of the needed 27 votes.

The Senate may have the votes to topple a Warner veto this session, with anti-abortion Republican Sens. Kenneth T. Cuccinelli II and James K. O'Brien Jr. replacing two moderate members. The third vote comes from Sen. Stephen H. Martin, R-Chesterfield, a socially conservative senator who was absent for last year's override ballot.

Kincaid said the General Assembly now is ``basically veto-proof.''

Sen. Stephen D. Newman, R-Lynchburg, the bill's patron, said he would like to see the governor sign the legislation.

``I hope we don't need an override,'' he said.

Warner has said he would consider a narrowly drawn partial-birth abortion ban that would provide an exemption for women whose health would be endangered by continuing a pregnancy.

A parental-consent bill was on the verge of passing last year, only to be scuttled on parliamentary maneuvers by then-Sen. Warren E. Barry, R-Fairfax, a social moderate who chaired a committee overseeing abortion legislation.

Barry left the Senate last year to take a job in the Warner administration. His chairmanship has been filled by a lawmaker who favors parental consent, Sen. H. Russell Potts Jr., R-Winchester.

Warner has signaled that he might be unfriendly to a consent bill, saying ``Virginia does not need more restrictions'' on abortion.

Physicians now are required only to notify parents before performing abortions on minors.

Sixteen states require parental consent, and eight others mandate notification of parents or guardians, said Louise D. Hartz, former president of the anti-abortion Virginia Society for Human Life.

Opponents say the issue will place an additional burden on girls from abusive or broken families.

A bill sponsored by Northern Virginia Democrat Sen. Mary Margaret Whipple does have support from lawmakers who support abortion rights. It states that contraception does not constitute abortion.

Whipple said she wants to protect contraception from being inadvertently restricted by anti-abortion legislation.

Other proposals being considered by the General Assembly would place heavier regulation on abortion clinics, would allow pharmacists to refuse to administer contraceptives, and would let drivers order a ``Choose Life'' license plate.

Conservatives say they have momentum.

Del. Robert G. Marshall, R-Prince William, a staunch abortion foe, said he expects parental notification and a late-term abortion ban to become law. Even if his proposals fail, he said, ``Getting people on the record is a victory.''

Staff writers Warren Fiske and Robert McCabe contributed to this report. Reach Louis Hansen at or at (804) 697-1563.

© 2003

43 posted on 01/23/2003 5:50:41 PM PST by Ligeia
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To: Ligeia
THANKS so much for the ping, that is great news!
44 posted on 01/23/2003 6:02:42 PM PST by xsmommy
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To: VaFederalist
Seatbelt bill died in committee today.

I read in the RTD however, that it's still alive in the Senate. The article said the committee hearing was tense as injured people testified to the pain and suffering caused by their not wearing seat belts. Who among us cannot tell a tale of woe regarding some dumb action or inaction on our part? Yet, we do not run off the government begging them to pass legislation in a misguided effort of saving us from ourselves. People who didn't learn in kindergarten to be responsible for themselves missed an important life lesson.

45 posted on 01/26/2003 6:40:52 AM PST by Ligeia
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To: kattracks
>>Sen. James "Jay" O'Brien, Fairfax Republican, supports linking license-expiration dates with non-immigrant visas to help identify illegal aliens<<

Of course, there is no question that should be done.

Can some of you who live in states where there is a lot of illegal immigration clue me in to who on earth would oppose visa tracking, and why?

If you or I go to France (for example) on a 21-day visa, the police at the POE get your address in France, and if your entry card doesn't have an exit stamp by day 22, they are knocking (politely) on your door to help you get to the airport.

Why don't we do this? Don't tell me it's Bush, or it's Clinton, or whatever. Who opposes this? No one, AFAIK.

46 posted on 01/26/2003 6:54:57 AM PST by Jim Noble
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To: Luis Gonzalez
>>I guess the only question I have on this would be how exactly a DMV clerk will differentiate between a non-citizen and a citizen in order to obtain proof of legal residence or citizenship?<<

In my state, you need to prove citizenship or legal residency to get an original license.

If you are a citizen or permanent legal resident (a condition which does not expire), your license is proof of status.

If you have a temporary right of abode, your license should expire along with your sojurn, and proof of extension should be required along with renewal.

47 posted on 01/26/2003 7:00:10 AM PST by Jim Noble
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To: Jim Noble
There are people against the legislation. This article illustrates how frustrating dealing with a government agency can be and what some of the arguments against the bill are. Once all the heartstrings are played the bottom line still remains: people are here illegally and that must be addressed and rectified.

Jan 20, 2003

DMV rules criticized

License procedures frustrate immigrants

Pedro Rivas was driving a friend's car when a police officer pulled him over. He had no driver's license.

When Rivas appeared in court on Sept. 13, 2002, the judge fined him $250.

Rivas, 22, had made repeated attempts to obtain a learner's permit. In April, he went to a Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles office in Chesterfield County and presented four documents - a photo identification from the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service, a proof of Virginia residence, a Social Security number and his Salvadoran passport.

But he still couldn't get a license.

The clerk denied his applica- tion because his passport showed no evidence of a U.S. visa. Efforts at different offices ended in frustration.

"I always came out dejected, wanting to cry," he said in Spanish.

Many immigrants have gone through similar frustrations when trying to obtain a driver's license or similar ID after DMV tightened the rules in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

DMV regulations don't yet require that immigrants applying for a driver's license show proof of legal status in the United States, but Virginia's attorney general and a key legislator are pushing legislation that would do just that.

And to complicate matters, the murkiness of DMV procedures has prevented many qualified One of the problems, say critics of the DMV's new procedures, is that DMV clerks don't have the training needed to determine just who holds what immigration status, and how that should affect their application for a driver's license.

Herber Rodz,Rivas' English-As-A-Second-Language teacher, went to the DMV office with him to serve as an interpreter. Rodz told the clerk his student had crossed the border illegally, but the INS had issued him a work authorization.

The explanation didn't help. Unable to get a learner's permit, Rivas ran the risk of driving without a license.

He tried again on Jan. 6 with the same documents and a letter from the INS explaining his application for a renewal of his work authorization was under review.

DMV finally issued him a learner's permit.

Sen. Jay O'Brien, R-Fairfax, has proposed legislation for DMV to require proof of legal presence in the country and tying expiration of licenses to people's legal-immigration status.

He said he has been made aware that if his legislation goes through, many documented immigrants won't be able to obtain IDs.

DMV issues a driver's license for five years, O'Brien said. If someone is allowed to come into the country for two years, he would have the ID for three more years.

"It is my position that Virginia has no . . . authority to extend an individual to stay in the country," he said. "That's a federal issue. I think that by doing that, we are encouraging a person to abscond."

Hector Moreno, vice president of the Chamber of Commerce of Central Virginia, said those affected are people like his son.

Sebastian Moreno is 16. He attends James River High School, and it's time for him to obtain his learner's permit so he can drive when he is ready to go to college.

"I think that if one is legal, one can do things correctly," Hector Moreno said. "But DMV is making people do things incorrectly. DMV has every reason not to issue a license to those who don't have [documentation], but to those who have legal documents, why deny it?"

Ofelia Robaina, an immigrant counselor with the Refugee and Immigration Services of the Catholic Diocese of Richmond, said the definition of "legal" is too complex for most DMV clerks to understand.

Only an expert or a person trained in immigration law could perform a job effectively at an DMV office, she said.

"When people talk about illegal, they have to think twice about who they call illegal," Robaina said. "To find out if a person is legal or illegal is very difficult and changes from day to day," she said. "[DMV] clerks don't have that immigration background."

Moreno, a native of Colombia, entered the country with his family in 1999. He held an H-2B visa as a qualified worker. His son entered on an H-4 visa as a dependent of a legal worker.

The clerk at the Chesterfield DMV officer where Sebastian Moreno applied for a permit said he needed a Social Security number or a letter from the Social Security Administration certifying that he didn't need a Social Security number.

The Morenos returned with the letter. The DMV clerk said he didn't have enough documentation and refused to tell them what else Sebastian needed, Hector Moreno said.

A DMV study released this month recommended that the General Assembly not take any action at this time "to require applicants for driver's licenses and ID cards to prove that their presence in the U.S. is lawful or to require that expiration of the documents be tied to the duration of an applicant's legal presence."

The DMV study concluded that requiring proof of an alien's legal presence in the United States:

48 posted on 01/26/2003 7:20:21 AM PST by Ligeia
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To: Sabertooth
He introduced a bill during the last legislative session that would prevent illegal aliens from getting licenses. The bill passed the House but the Senate referred it to the Department of Motor Vehicles for study.

My take is similar to yours here. Bills have to be passed to stop illegals from doing legal things? The only bill that should be passed is one that would make it a crime for any government employee to not turn in illegals (school employees, registry, tax collection, medical assistance, etc.) for immediate deportation.

49 posted on 01/26/2003 7:26:25 AM PST by grania ("Won't get fooled again")
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Will you be required to prove citizenship as I am sure he will be?

Why not? Everybody would have to have their birth certificate for this, just like for a job application or security check. It's no big deal, especially if it will help send home people who are in the US illegally.

50 posted on 01/26/2003 7:31:33 AM PST by grania ("Won't get fooled again")
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