U.S. Social Security May Reach To Mexico

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ ^ | 12/19/2002 | Jonathan Weisman

[BallandPowder]

Pushed by the Mexican government, the Bush administration is working on a Social Security accord that would put tens of thousands of Mexicans onto the Social Security roster and send hundreds of millions of dollars in benefits south of the border.

White House and Mexican government officials say discussions on an agreement to align the Social Security systems of the two countries are informal and preliminary. But excerpts from an internal Social Security Administration memo obtained this month say the agreement "is expected to move forward at an accelerated pace," with the support of both governments, and could be in force by next October.

[BallandPowder]

POWDER..PATCH..BALL FIRE!

When the legalization talks began going nowhere, the Mexicans began focusing on this," said Maria Blanco, national senior counsel for the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund. "They really bore in at Los Cabos."

Arturo Sarukhan, a top official in Mexico's foreign ministry, said that after Mexico's failure to win a comprehensive package of immigration reforms from Bush, it is lobbying in Washington for important incremental steps. "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time," he said.

ALERT, ALERT, ALERT!!! They Mexican goverment wants OUR social security money to prop up their program!!!

[Texas_Jarhead]

this is bullshit! So we're suppose to allow them to come work here and then send whatever meager payments they make into SS back to Mexico? that's frerakin ridiculous. WE NEED SOME REAL AMERICA FIRST LEADERS TO STEP UP AND STOP THIS INSANITY!

[freedomcrusader]

Looter alert!

[concerned about politics]

The pact would be the latest, but by far the largest, of a series of treaties designed to ensure that people from one country working in another aren't taxed by both nations' social security systems.

Why pay both and only collect one?
It seems if they pay into SS no matter what country, they should be able to collect from it.
Why pay for a dead horse?
Am I missing something here?

[Republic of Texas]

" "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time," he said. "

The Mexican Plan in a nutshell. This is how parasites slowly kill the host. One bite at a time.

[CanisMajor2002]

Ugh. Where's Al Gore's lock box when you need it.

We've just debated over the past six years or so that Social Security was going bankrupt and how to fix it, and now we're going to add more to the rolls?

Part of me just wants to say, "Fine, bankrupt the sucker; then it will show that it doesn't work"...but more money would be lost then with Enron...dang.

[Republic of Texas]

Here's a reason to be concerned. All the paying IN takes place HERE. All the paying OUT goes there. The only reason a person could not understand this, is if they did not want to understand it.

[TomGuy]

the Bush administration is working on a Social Security accord that would put tens of thousands of Mexicans onto the Social Security roster and send hundreds of millions of dollars in benefits south of the border.

Is this an alternative to the thus-far failure to pass 245(i) Amnesty for Illegals?

[Bikers4Bush]

"The GOP aide said Mexican officials would also like benefits to be adjusted upward for a legal Mexican worker who worked in the United States for some time illegally and paid into the Social Security system using a false Social Security number." This is what you're missing. That and the fact that they could work in mexico forever come here for the last few years and receive OUR benefits. Scumbags.

[isthisnickcool]

I had a friend that works for the Dept. of Human Services tell me this. It's hard to believe it's true: "There are already Mexican nationals receiving food stamp, AFDC and other benefits using false SS #'s. Which is easy because the states rarely check the SS# on applicants to see if they are real or stolen. In the past, some have acquired the benefits in Florida, Texas and CA and have the money sent to Mexico. Since every state handles their own data processing systems and because they do not cross-index the SS#'s for duplication."

The fraud is incredible in the welfare system.

Putting Mexicans on Social Security is just insanity. What the U.S. should be doing is calculating the number of illegals here and sending Vicente Fox a bill.

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

It will be interesting hearing Michael Savage's take on this one! :)

[absalom01]

This strikes me as a really bad idea.

[Mulder]

Welcome to the New World Order.

Brought to you by Bush, Clinton, Dole, and Gore incorporated.

[concerned about politics]

If they can't collect SS after they pay for it, why pay for it in the first place?
(Honest, except for the "eating the elephant" part- which sends up a red flag- I'm trying to understand why the outrage over them collecting what they've paid for. Honest. )

[Geezerette]

It looks like the Mexicans have FBI files on Bush!

Un****believable!

g

[WorkingClassFilth]

A couple of reasons that I can think of...

Pay into the American system and the drive will be on to 'equalize' payments going out of the country to Mexico. That differential will be a boon to the lower living costs there.

The second thing is that SS recipients, on average, receive far more than they ever put in. In this way, foreign nationals will be the direct recipients of your tax monies forever - or at least until they die.

[BallandPowder]

POWDER..PATCH..BALL FIRE1

POWDER..PATCH..BALL FIRE1

POWDER..PATCH..BALL FIRE1

POWDER..PATCH..BALL FIRE1

POWDER..PATCH..BALL FIRE1

THIS NEEDS TO BE STOPPED IN ITS TRACKS! CONTACT YOUR CONGRESSMEN AND SENATORS! THE UNITES STATES IS NOT PRESIDENTE FOX'S PIGGYBANK!

[cardinal4]

If they paid into it legally, they are entitltled to it, I misread the article. After your post I read it again, it doesnt say ILLEGAL at all. No, Migrant workers who have paid into should get it back.

[David Isaac]

How far down the road is the North American Federation, the perfect counterpart to the European Union?

In the good-cop/bad-cop scenario, the final outcome does not depend on which cop wins.

On the other hand, why is the government willing to accept SS payments from people when they have no intention of paying them back. The ways of government can be very mysterious at times.

[Geezerette]

Michael Savage!!! Yes, it will be an "interesting" program today.

g

[TomGuy]

Not only are some receiving state and Federal benefits, but probably some are scamming even more. 20 years ago, I worked for a state social service. The AFDC caseworker showed me a document signed which adequately proved a client was scamming. Caseworker informed superiors who told her it was insignificant to pursue the issue--so drop it and process the scammer's benefits.

The scam was this:

The client has 2 kids, 2 different fathers. The kids each had 2 different Social Security numbers. The client filed for each kid under each SSN. Thus, 2 kids with 2 benefits each. Oh, but it gets better.....Since the local social service county borders on another state, not only was the client scamming my state with 2 claims per kid, but she was also scamming the adjoining state with 2 claims per kid.

And the state office(s) refused to pursue any action against the client. Our tax dollars at work.

[Republic of Texas]

I don't know, maybe because they are here ILLEGALLY!? This is a shocker, but sometimes when you break the law, you lose a few rights! You can't ALWAYS expect to break the law and get paid for it! As I said before, you don't "understand" this because you don't want to.

[HAL9000]

Migrant workers who have paid into should get it back.

Perhaps it would be better to collect the SSI tax on migrant workers here, immediately transfer that money to Mexico and let them eventually pay it out of their system.

[DannyTN]

Wait this might not be as bad as it seems.

Let them pay into the system for 50 years and then have the retirement age raised on them and let them get diddly squat.
A 0% return like the rest of us are getting might not be bad.

[DannyTN]

Wait this might not be as bad as it seems.

Let them pay into the system for 50 years and then have the retirement age raised on them and let them get diddly squat.
A 0% return like the rest of us are getting might not be bad.

[DannyTN]

Wait this might not be as bad as it seems.

Let them pay into the system for 50 years and then have the retirement age raised on them and let them get diddly squat.
A 0% return like the rest of us are getting might not be bad.

[tangerine]

I think you're missing the point. It's not the pay-into at issue here. It's the pay-out that's being claimed. A much more costly proposition.

[Republic of Texas]

And yes, I know the article says legal workers, but if they are here legally, why are they back in Mexico? Is Mexico willing to pay me SS if I work there? Hell no! I can't even work there, because they discriminate against Americans! There are about 3 million legal Mexican workers, and 10 million ILLEGAL Mexican workers in the US. ALL paying into SS. How long before we start paying the illegal workers? After all, they paid in, it's only fair.

[tdscpa]

Do you think SSA will be notified when they die?

[skeeter]

I don't get it. Exactly when was it was decided that we Americans are responsible for the well-being of all Mexicans?

Whats going on behind the scenes here? I cannot believe there is no quid pro quo. There's GOT to be something in this for us SOMEWHERE.

[TheRightGuy]

Pay into the American system and the drive will be on to 'equalize' payments going out of the country to Mexico. That differential will be a boon to the lower living costs there.

The second thing is that SS recipients, on average, receive far more than they ever put in. In this way, foreign nationals will be the direct recipients of your tax monies forever - or at least until they die.

What about the thousands of non-hispanic U.S. citizens who have retired to various places in Central America in order to stretch their retirement dollars?

[tdscpa]

Do you think SSA will be notified when they die?

[wku man]

Yes, you are missing something here. Social Security is on schedule to go bankrupt in the year 2030, unless radical changes are made to the program. 2030 also happens to be the year I turn 65, so everyone my age and younger will have literally paid into the system our entire lives, and will not see one penny. I'm sorry, but that's where my sense of fair play ends.

Why the h-e-double toothpicks would we further burden an already overstretched Social Security system by sending funds to freakin' MEXICO?!? There are already too many scumbags in this country mooching off the blood, sweat and tears of those paying in, and now Jorge Bush wants to add even more people to the rolls? People who aren't even American citizens (Mexicans working here and living in their home country should be kissing our butts just for letting them cross the border to work!) You honestly don't see the brick wall right in front of us, that we're getting ready to smash into?

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

[texastoo]

NAFTA must be a BIG-TIME failure. Mexico has shown us that it is a failure. They just keep begging.

If Bush ever comes close to my area he will get a freep he won't forget.

My sign will say "I wish I was a Mexican".

I am furious. This is probably a hidden part of NAFTA just like amnesty.

[BallandPowder]

POWDER..PATCH..BALL FIRE!

POWDER..PATCH..BALL FIRE!

POWDER..PATCH..BALL FIRE!

POWDER..PATCH..BALL FIRE!

POWDER..PATCH..BALL FIRE!

The GOP aide said Mexican officials would also like benefits to be adjusted upward for a legal Mexican worker who worked in the United States for some time illegally and paid into the Social Security system using a false Social Security number. Gabriela Lemus, director of policy and legislation for the League of United Latin American Citizens, said as much as $21 billion in Social Security payments have not been tracked to potential beneficiaries, most likely because they were paid under a false Social Security number.

THEY ARE ILLEGALS!! THEY DON'T DESERVE ANY BENEFITS EXCEPT A RIDE HOME!

[isthisnickcool]

And the state office(s) refused to pursue any action against the client. Our tax dollars at work.

My friend was involved in building a computerized system that easily found the fraud in one state. The system found people getting benefits that were married when they said they were not, found various assets that excluded the person from benefits, etc,etc. It worked so well that they state quit using the software.

My friend says that if each state simply pulled each SS# from their computers and compared them with all the other states they would find a large number of people double or triple dipping like you describe. Doing something like this would cost almost nothing.

The problem with the story that started this thread, which is a different problem from the Food Stamp/AFDC fraud problem, is that someone can pay into SS here for a few years then get the benefits forever. Which is similiar to the problem with illegals coming across the border and getting all sorts of free services. They have never invested a penny in this country but receive benefits native Americans that come from families that have paid in for generations cannot receive.

But what if Congress allows this? Big deal? This is the like system they have. The taxpayers pay most of Congress's freight and after a few years they get benefits forever.

This is no way to run a country.

[wku man]

"Pushed by the Mexican government..."

Kinda sums up Jorge Bush's entire border policy, doncha think?

I'll concur with your patch and ball sentiments, but as a former soldier. Therefore, breathe...relax...aim...squeeze.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

[justshe]

"...agreement is projected to trigger 37,000 new claims from Mexicans who worked in the United States legally and paid Social Security taxes but have been unable to claim their checks, according to a memo prepared by Ted Girdner, the Social Security Administration's assistant associate commissioner for international operations.

You wrote: I don't know, maybe because they are here ILLEGALLY!?

PLEASE calm down....you are being QUITE condescending. WHERE did you see this policy was for ILLEGALS?

You further wrote: As I said before, you don't "understand" this because you don't want to. "

Hence my comment about calming down. No need to turn EVERY discussion on immigration into a free-for-all, is there?

[concerned about politics]

The second thing is that SS recipients, on average, receive far more than they ever put in. In this way, foreign nationals will be the direct recipients of your tax monies forever - or at least until they die.

Then Bush shouldn't hand over the cash, but stop them from paying SS here. Don't include them at all. That way the US doesn't get screwed carring the burden.
Opps. I get it now. (DUH!)Bush went the wrong way.

[fogarty]

Nope, it's definitely no joke. And it's also no joke that Bush and his administration supports this. They are getting little forward movement on mass amnesty for every illegal alien so they are now taking this route.

I wonder if that 'Board of Governors' deal has some conflict of interest now that Bush is president. Could it be he made some deals with the other Mexican border governors while he was in Texas?

[Right_in_Virginia]

Has the president lost his mind? How is he going to explain this AND propose changes in the SS system to preserve it for the American people?

[MissAmericanPie]

Get even with them, write in Tancredo for President 2004. Give them a taste of what it means to be a traitorous party, non-existance. We do not need a Liberal, and a Liberal lite party. Bush is to Americans what Chernoble is to Russia, a radioactive poison that should be hurled out of office.

[Republic of Texas]

Why can't they claim their checks?

[Boonie Rat]

Let's understand something here:

First,employees are not making a contribution into a retirement program, but are, in reality, paying a "special income tax" which is deducted from their wages and paid to the federal government by the employer. The tax is an indirect or excise tax imposed on the employee for the "privilege" of being employed by an employer.

Second, employers are not making matching contributions into a retirement program for their employees, but are, in reality, paying an excise tax for the privilege of having individuals in their employ.

Third, there is no retirement trust fund. The Court stated:"[t]he proceeds of both taxes are to be paid into the Treasury like internal-revenue taxes generally, and are not earmarked in any way."Since these income taxes are not earmarked in any way, there are no individual retirement accounts. Both taxes are general fund income taxes, which are used to pay the general expenditures of the federal government. This means Congress can spend these so-called "retirement contributions" to pay for military appropriations, foreign aid, salaries of federal employees, etc.

In 1960, in Flemming v. Nestor (363 US 603), the Supreme Court provided further insight into the nature of the Social Security program. The Court stated that "...eligibility for benefits...[does] not in any true sense depend on contribution through the payment of taxes." Since the Social Security program is a form of welfare, an individual who has not paid a penny in Social Security taxes can receive various benefits under the program.

The Court also ruled that individuals paying Social Security taxes do not acquire any property or contractual rights as they would in an insurance or annuity plan. In addition, the Court stated: "[c]ongress included in the original act, and has since retained, a claim expressly reserving to it "[t]he right to alter, amend, or repeal any provision' of the Act."

Additionally, Congress does NOT participate in Social Security!

Boonie Rat

MACV SOCOM, PhuBai/Hue '65-'66

[justshe]

***Bush is to Americans what Chernoble is to Russia, a radioactive poison that should be hurled out of office. ***

Oh, get real.