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Why men don't like church: testosterone
The Ottawa Citizen ^ | Sunday, December 22, 2002 | Emanuella Grinberg

Posted on 12/22/2002 4:52:42 PM PST by freeforall

Why men don't like church: testosterone Skipping services typical of engaging in 'short-sighted' risks

Emanuella Grinberg The Ottawa Citizen

Sunday, December 22, 2002

The risk-taking impulse that makes more men than women commit crimes is also the reason men are more likely not to be religious, says a sociologist.

"It seems that not being religious is a form of risk-taking, consistent with other patterns of short-sighted behaviour in men," said Rodney Stark, a professor of sociology and comparative religion at the University of Washington, whose study will be published in The Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion.

"Every minister knows it's harder to get the guys to church than the women," he said. "We ought to be asking why this is."

Biological differences between men and women mean that men are more likely to have an "underdeveloped ability to inhibit their impulses," he said. "Especially those involving immediately gratification and thrills."

Mr. Stark based his conclusions on World Values Surveys, a poll of residents in 57 countries, with about 1,000 respondents in each country, which included the U.S., most European countries, Mexico, Brazil, Japan, Turkey, China and India. The results showed that there were sex differences everywhere, even in religions that are very male-centred, such as Orthodox Judaism.

Mr. Stark and fellow sociologist Alan Miller published another paper based on whether gender socialization or differences in social power played a role in religiousness. Studies have shown that career women are just as religious as housewives, he said.

Mr. Stark isn't satisfied with the notion that women are socialized to be more nurturing and have more time for worship than men. For him, it is a matter of gender that makes men less religious, but not a matter of the socialization of genders, said Mr. Stark.

"It used to be said that women were socialized to raise the kids and take care of the home, but when you compare a career woman to a housewife, you see that both are still a heck of a lot more religious than any man."

He says that if not a product of socialization, low rates of male religiousness can be attributed to physiology, much like higher instances of crime among men compared with women.

"There are big gender differences among Christians, Orthodox Jews and Muslims, but in each case, more women are going to more services and saying they adhere to religious mores than men. If it were a matter of socialization, it would show up in the results," he said.

Mr. Stark also said his findings are consistent with the beliefs of criminologists across North America who find aggression more prevalent in men than women.

"High testosterone levels have been proven to make men more likely to commit crimes. The tendency in men toward risky behaviour keeps turning up even where socialization is different, and so does crime and delinquency."

© Copyright 2002 The Ottawa Citizen


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Explains the appeal of Islam!'short-sighted' risks
1 posted on 12/22/2002 4:52:42 PM PST by freeforall
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To: freeforall
Does this mean that all men should go on Depo-Provera?
2 posted on 12/22/2002 4:56:01 PM PST by johniegrad
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To: freeforall
Huh! I thought it was because on Sunday the NFL conflicts with church in the western part of the country. (lame joke, I know)
3 posted on 12/22/2002 4:56:35 PM PST by Argh
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To: freeforall
patterns of short-sighted behaviour in men

Uh huh. Those the same patterns that are responsible for every major development in Western civilization? We should ALL be so myopic ...

4 posted on 12/22/2002 4:59:23 PM PST by IronJack
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To: freeforall
Nope

It's because men aren't flooded with smarmy-emotion-inducing hormones every month. Therefore, they examine religion without emotional bias.

5 posted on 12/22/2002 5:00:28 PM PST by mfulstone
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To: freeforall
The feminist church has driven most men from the typical congregation. Look at how the ELCA, the Presbyterian Church, the Methodist Church, and the Episcopalians have gone downhill in the last 20 years. Add the "witness" of the Unitarian Universalist Association. (In truth, all the denominations follow the UAA trends by a few years.)

Notice that Wisconsin Synod and the Missouri Synod want to be just like the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Like the ELCA, those two synods are failing. White-washed sepulchres full of dead men's bones.
6 posted on 12/22/2002 5:02:15 PM PST by Chemnitz
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To: freeforall
Or could it be that mainstream denominations (like those found in Canada) are primarily social clubs that offer little concrete principle to believe in.
7 posted on 12/22/2002 5:02:35 PM PST by moyden
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To: mfulstone
My wife wouldn't agree> The middle east may an example of overly excited religious men.
8 posted on 12/22/2002 5:05:10 PM PST by freeforall
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To: freeforall
I inhibit my impulses. My standards of morality would make the average minister cringe in fear, which is why we don't get along. People of the cloth tend to have the lowest IQ and MAT scores of all the professions, which make conversation and other association with them a burden. I do not believe people once lived to be 900 years old. The Bible is a hidiously gruesome brutal document of doubtful historical fact. It has nothing to do with risk-taking.
9 posted on 12/22/2002 5:08:40 PM PST by RLK
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To: freeforall
 "It seems that not being religious is a form of risk-taking..."

In that case, it would be wise to fervently believe in every
religion that has ever come to the mind of man.  People who
are religious because of the risk of not being so are cowardly.
Such a calculated faith is more worthless than an unexamined one swallowed whole.
10 posted on 12/22/2002 5:12:04 PM PST by gcruse
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To: freeforall

A business that holds its customers in such contempt would be on its way to bankruptcy.

What's that? He can't get men to come to his church? No surprise there.

The customers are not the enemy. I repeat: the customers are not the enemy.


11 posted on 12/22/2002 5:15:17 PM PST by Nick Danger
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To: freeforall
Such drivel......

The reason that men don't like church is the same reason that little boys don't like to sit still. It's boring. There's no action and it often takes supreme concentration to get through the often repetitious ritual to the intellectual meat. There is great room for distraction and day-dreaming.

I also think that many men, over the years, have been able to see through the absolute shallowness of many of today's clergy and because more men are conservative by nature, they don't buy the liberal agenda pushed on a captive audience from the pulpit. Women are more "touchy-feely" so they feel more comfortable with the micro-managing solutions offered by many modern churches. For men who like engagement in the process, there is no opportunity for criticism or discussion, so why bother?

12 posted on 12/22/2002 5:15:32 PM PST by MHT
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To: Chemnitz
A great book on Catholicism, Goodbye, Good Men: How Liberalism Brought Corruption into the Catholic Church, also points out how nuns became the dominant determinants in who got to go to seminary. Those who were sensitive to the feminist agenda were selected over more traditional candidates. Eventually, this has led to a strongly homosexual contingent in the seminary itself. Quite an indictment of the Catholic Church in America, the process of educating priests, and a warning for other denominations.
13 posted on 12/22/2002 5:19:08 PM PST by MHT
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To: RLK
Amen brother
14 posted on 12/22/2002 5:24:45 PM PST by LDO4CNO
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To: freeforall
Maybe men don't attend Church because they are more rational and logical?
15 posted on 12/22/2002 5:27:46 PM PST by Eternal_Bear
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To: freeforall
MEN = BAD
White MEN = Badder
White Christian MEN = really, really bad
All other demoninational MEN = almost as really bad but not as bad as "really, really bad"

Women = exempt

Let's bash men today!!!
Today?
Why is today different?
Because it's not yesterday.
oh.
16 posted on 12/22/2002 5:31:20 PM PST by JoeSixPack1
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To: Eternal_Bear
Maybe it's because men think that they are better and know more than God.
17 posted on 12/22/2002 5:31:54 PM PST by Hillary's Lovely Legs
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To: freeforall
Biological differences between men and women mean that men are more likely to have an "underdeveloped ability to inhibit their impulses," he said. "Especially those involving immediately gratification and thrills."

And what about impulses to defend others, especially women and children? Any reason you choose not to mention those, Dr.? Think there might not be a reason why this tendency is biologically favored?

18 posted on 12/22/2002 5:32:34 PM PST by aristeides
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To: johniegrad
'Does this mean all men should go on Depo-Provera?"

No. LOL! This is an example of junk science perpetrated by two academic frauds outside their areas of competence. Let me correct two plain cold falsehoods on which this armchair speculation is based:

1. Testosterone does not induce higher levels of violent crime.

2. Testosterone does not increase impulsiveness, or inability to delay gratification, or heighten "short-term risktaking."

The basic impact of testosterone, is to increase a person's ability to exercise dominance over his environment. In other words, testosterone is the driving force behind the taming of the wilderness, the development of science and technology, and the creation of social institutions from marriage to the nation state to maintain the social order necessary to a complex civilization. It is also the energy behind men's generally greater interest in initiating sex.

Risk-taking is of course an inherent part of exploration and discovery, of invention and mastery, but this is a civilizing virtue, not a shortcoming as these two androgynes would have us believe.

It is no accident that men have been the leaders in all these fields, while women are more comfortable with the passivity and intellectual vacuum of religious ritual, the submission to some arbitrary authority; and for the most part of history, enjoying the benefits of progress while contributing little to the real world.

Really, this screed is a throwback to the 1980's androphobia, which led a brigade of chronically PMS-ing white-chick social workers to inflame the anti-male sexual hysteria of the 1990's.

It has always amused me that academic eunuchs sweating in self-reproach, buy into this "testosterone poisoning" crap, but then they in their stagnant campus hothouse backwaters are much like the women they admire, who find in religion an escape from the rigors of living a real life.




19 posted on 12/22/2002 5:34:12 PM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: Eternal_Bear
The congregation where scriptural truth is preached and practiced is more rational and logical than any bunch of faithless men. I don't think men avoid chuch because they are less emotional, they avoid the church that gives them religious and meaningless traditions. But once a man finds the Man, Jesus the Lord, then that man becomes stronger, more compassionate, wiser and fulfilled. Find the real deal and see your men change - for Good.
20 posted on 12/22/2002 5:41:12 PM PST by Hila
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To: aristeides
Biological differences between men and women mean that men are more likely to have an "underdeveloped ability to inhibit their impulses," he said. "Especially those involving immediately gratification and thrills."

-------------------

"Especially those involving immediately gratification and thrills." ???

Is this person at all familiar with the women in this country during recent decades?

21 posted on 12/22/2002 5:48:38 PM PST by RLK
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To: RLK
I do not believe people once lived to be 900 years old. The Bible is a hidiously gruesome brutal document of doubtful historical fact. It has nothing to do with risk-taking.

This is a rather interesting thread, despite no believing Christian coming forward to argue the other side - up to this point.

I am a believing born-again Christian who attends and supports a small United Methodist Church. I disagree with you about the Bible being gruesome. Taken as a whole it's a story of how God created everything in the universe, yet saw fit to come here (to Earth) as a man to let us know who He is, that He loves us and understands what we experience - all of it.

We are about to celebrate His coming to Earth like we all do - through birth. How amazing.

Without my faith I would have nothing to work for or believe in. Those who live without knowing who God is are missing what is the greatest joy one can have. I hope all of you who don't have an understanding of who God is are invited to church by someone who is a believer in Christ and the one true God. If you are touched by Him your life will change in ways I can't describe. Merry Christmas to you all.

22 posted on 12/22/2002 5:50:48 PM PST by toddst
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To: freeforall
....men are more likely to have an "underdeveloped ability to inhibit their impulses,"

Notice the implication here. If males & females are different, it is obviously the males who are lacking.

FEMALE = NORMAL

MALE = ABNORMAL

Any questions?

23 posted on 12/22/2002 5:52:01 PM PST by Republic If You Can Keep It
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To: freeforall
This is the answer I have been searching for for years but I doubt my wife is going to like any better than the others I have used...(she thinks Nascar is on every Sunday)
24 posted on 12/22/2002 5:53:28 PM PST by tubebender
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To: toddst
Without my faith I would have nothing to work for or believe in.

---------------------

Without you faith I find much to believe in through observation and honest intellectual derivation. The process isn't easy and isn't for everybody.

25 posted on 12/22/2002 5:54:27 PM PST by RLK
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To: toddst
I am a believing born-again Christian who attends and supports a small United Methodist Church.

------------------------------

It puzzles me how anyone of sensibility could attend the same denomination the Clintons went to and which endorsed Bill Clinton.

26 posted on 12/22/2002 5:56:41 PM PST by RLK
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To: freeforall
The watered-down 'politically-correct' message eminating from the pulpit is what is driving MEN from the church in wholesale numbers...nothing else. This explains the explosive growth of underground churches in this country. (I have one right next door to my house.)



27 posted on 12/22/2002 6:01:11 PM PST by who knows what evil?
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To: JoeSixPack1
Funny...wasn't it the "prophet" Mohammad who looked into the bowels of Hell and noted that "the inhabitants thereof were mostly women"? Hmmm...



28 posted on 12/22/2002 6:04:12 PM PST by who knows what evil?
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To: toddst
,,, endorsement for your post #22 Todd. Have a great Christmas and all the best for 2003 and beyond.
29 posted on 12/22/2002 6:10:41 PM PST by shaggy eel
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To: IronJack
AMEN, sir! AMEN!
30 posted on 12/22/2002 6:14:23 PM PST by Odile
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To: IronJack
AMEN, sir! AMEN!
31 posted on 12/22/2002 6:14:23 PM PST by Odile
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To: freeforall
"High testosterone levels have been proven to make men more likely to..."

Testosterone is our friend.

32 posted on 12/22/2002 6:19:01 PM PST by TightSqueeze
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To: Republic If You Can Keep It; All
What is driving men from church? What drives boys from school? Annoying, bossy GIRLS in charge.(And I am a girl, so I know.)
33 posted on 12/22/2002 6:29:58 PM PST by Temple Drake
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To: shaggy eel
,,, endorsement for your post #22 Todd. Have a great Christmas and all the best for 2003 and beyond.

Thank you, Shag. A Merry Christmas and wonderful New Year to you and your family! Perhaps I'll get over your way next year - I would like to!

34 posted on 12/22/2002 6:32:20 PM PST by toddst
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To: Chemnitz
Interesting that Hollywood and the media are not regarded as an influence that discourages men from joining a Church.
35 posted on 12/22/2002 6:36:01 PM PST by peter the great
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To: Hila
. . . once a man finds the Man, Jesus the Lord, then that man becomes stronger, more compassionate, wiser and fulfilled. Find the real deal and see your men change - for Good.

Exactly right. Thank you for your clear statement.

36 posted on 12/22/2002 6:37:27 PM PST by toddst
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To: who knows what evil?
Hmmmmmm, while I am surely not up to snuff on the teachings of Mohammed, anyplace that's mostly women is enticing! :-)

AND,,,, I've been to hell, their isn't many women there. (Well, at least not the one i was at.)

Semper Fi.
37 posted on 12/22/2002 6:37:37 PM PST by JoeSixPack1
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To: toddst
Brother, you aren't alone. Though I am puzzled by your choice of denomination (I am Roman Catholic), though in the big picture not the most important thing.

In general people are scared of commitment, Church, Christianity require incredible commitment, submitting one's life to Him who gave it to us, that takes a lot of commitment, something many people, and many men are afraid of. God Bless You

Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit
38 posted on 12/22/2002 6:38:46 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat
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To: RLK
Dear RLK,

One naturally fears even to speak with one whose IQ and MAT scores are as high as yours undoubtedly are. I also have no doubt that I, being of so pedestrian a profession ... nay, better a craft, am a burden to associate with. So I will be brief. First, we are all so very much relieved that you don't believe that people once lived to be 900 years old. I will sleep better at night knowing that at least one highly intelligent (and I know this to be true since the trait is self-confessed) testosterone beset individual sees through this centuries old conspiracy to deceive the masses - Lenin was surely right here. Second, I stand in awe of the razor sharp mind that perceives the hideously gruesome nature of this brutal document of doubtful historical fact. You must have sat through a for-real college class where the learned professor opened your gifted mind with this precious nugget of immovable truth. Wow. Why inhibit your impulses when, clearly, you have so much to teach us benighted men of the cloth. Say on, sir, say on. We wait with bated breath.

With sincerity equal to that with which you wrote,
JK
39 posted on 12/22/2002 6:39:25 PM PST by JanKrtitel
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To: Temple Drake
What is driving men from church? What drives boys from school? Annoying, bossy GIRLS in charge.(And I am a girl, so I know.)

You ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the refreshing insight! :-)

40 posted on 12/22/2002 6:42:12 PM PST by JoeSixPack1
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To: freeforall
"...Emanuella Grinberg..."

Yep, he ate the brown acid at Woodstock '69.
41 posted on 12/22/2002 6:43:45 PM PST by Mustang
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To: RLK
It puzzles me how anyone of sensibility could attend the same denomination the Clintons went to and which endorsed Bill Clinton.

All the Clintons did was "go to" a Methodist Church. They used going to church like they used everything else - only for their benefit.

As for the Methodist Church endorsing Clinton, MY Methodist Church certainly did nothing of the kind. At the national level the Methodist organization has been inflitrated by liberals who claim to speak for all of us. They do not. I assure you the Methodist Church is Kentucky is conservative, not liberal.

42 posted on 12/22/2002 6:44:23 PM PST by toddst
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To: who knows what evil?
Many people on this thread are casting this as a conservative vs liberal issue. Not necessarily so. I grew up in a conservative church, and I walked away from it. I assure you it wasn't because of political correctness, watering down of the message, of anything of the sort. I simply stopped believing.

Not every issue should be viewed through an ideological prism.
43 posted on 12/22/2002 6:44:56 PM PST by kms61
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To: toddst
We are about to celebrate His coming ... If you are touched by Him

I just noticed something. There's heavy homosexual overtones in both religion and football. "He put it deep into the other guy's endzone", "He knelt down and accepted the body of Christ". Ick, I don't care for either outlet myself.

44 posted on 12/22/2002 6:45:49 PM PST by Reeses
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To: hinckley buzzard
It is no accident that men have been the leaders in all these fields, while women are more comfortable with the passivity and intellectual vacuum of religious ritual, the submission to some arbitrary authority; and for the most part of history, enjoying the benefits of progress while contributing little to the real world.

dear friend, with whom I so frequently agree-- have you read the Mayflower Compact recently? It's hard to think of a religion that men haven't founded and dominated, or are you reading your history somewhere different from me? In the congregation that I attend, men are not under-represented.

45 posted on 12/22/2002 6:46:31 PM PST by gusopol3
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To: TightSqueeze
"High testosterone levels have been proven to make men more likely to..."
be men???
46 posted on 12/22/2002 6:46:33 PM PST by Temple Drake
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To: NWU Army ROTC
Though, as I read my post, I know that their are some who would say that my choice of denomination is "interesting." If I offended, I am sorry, and I apologize.

As I reread my post after posting, I most add something, Christianity requires a lot of commitment and a true Christian is one who gives over his or her life to Christ, Church doesn't necessarily entail that.

Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit
47 posted on 12/22/2002 6:52:11 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat
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To: JoeSixPack1
OOOrah, hon! I have to look out for my sons. My goal is to riase manly men and womanly women -- but no wimps or sissies. I train the boys to be gentlemen even when dealing with girls who are clearly not ladies...
48 posted on 12/22/2002 6:52:41 PM PST by Temple Drake
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To: freeforall
Sunday morning is the only time that men have to get things done around the house without interference. Its good to separate once in a while.

Plus, church is often boring.

That said, this is quite the generalization. I haven't counted heads on Sunday morning of late, but I suspect that there's plenty of men in most churches on Sunday morning or whenever a particular religious ceremony is held.

49 posted on 12/22/2002 6:55:45 PM PST by meyer
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Comment #50 Removed by Moderator


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