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Islam's Other Victims: Wars Against Christians-under relentless attack for centuries.
FrontPageMagazine.com ^ | December 23, 2002 | Serge Trifkovic

Posted on 12/23/2002 5:06:53 PM PST by SJackson

Christians in the Muslim Middle East -- under relentless attack for centuries.

(One in a series of excerpts adapted by Robert Locke from Dr. Serge Trifkovic’s new book The Sword of the Prophet: A Politically-Incorrect Guide to Islam)

Most people take for granted that the Middle East is a Moslem region of the world. What they forget is that this region, which was of course the birthplace of Christianity, has a long history of Christian communities. These, however, have been the most readily-accessible targets of jihad, so they have been under relentless attack for centuries.

Let’s start in the late 19th century, when most of the Middle East was ruled, either actually or nominally, by the Ottoman Turkish Empire. This empire was in a state of terminal decline and governmental incompetence, making it a constant source of worry to the European great powers of the day. Thought had been given to carving it up among those powers, but this was never done for fear of starting a war and creating an even worse mess than already existed.

One of the tendencies of the crumbling Ottoman state was to lash out against the Christians under its rule. The tragedy of Christian communities under Turkish rule, as then-British Prime Minister William Gladstone saw it, was not “a question of Mohammedanism simply, but of Mohammedanism compounded with the peculiar character of a race.” He wrote of the Turks:

“They were, upon the whole, from the black day when they first entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity. Wherever they went a broad line of blood marked the track behind them, and, as far as their dominion reached, civilization disappeared from view. They represented everywhere government by force as opposed to government by law. — Yet a government by force can not be maintained without the aid of an intellectual element. — Hence there grew up, what has been rare in the history of the world, a kind of tolerance in the midst of cruelty, tyranny and rapine. Much of Christian life was contemptuously left alone and a race of Greeks was attracted to Constantinople which has all along made up, in some degree, the deficiencies of Turkish Islam in the element of mind.”

“The attitude of the Moslems toward the Christians and the Jews is that of a master towards slaves,” reported the British Vice Consul in Mosul (an Ottoman city in what is now Northern Iraq) a little later in 1909, “whom he treats with a certain lordly tolerance so long as they keep their place. Any sign of pretension to equality is promptly repressed.” This, of course, is the old story of dhimmitude or the second-class citizenship of non-Moslems under Moslem rule.

The Ottomans lurched from outrage to outrage. Regular slaughters of Armenians in Bayazid (1877), Alashgurd (1879), Sassun (1894), Constantinople (1896), Adana (1909) and Armenia itself (1895-96) claimed a total of two hundred thousand lives, but they were only rehearsals for the genocide of 1915. The slaughter of Christians in Alexandria in 1881 was only a rehearsal for the artificial famine induced by the Turks in 1915-16 that killed over a hundred thousand Maronite Christians in Lebanon and Syria. So imminent and ever-present was the peril, and so fresh the memory of these events in the minds of the non-Moslems, that illiterate Christian mothers dated events as so many years before or after “such and such a massacre.” Across the Middle East, the bloodshed of 1915-1922 finally destroyed ancient Christian communities and cultures that had survived since Roman times—groups like the Jacobites (Syrian Orthodox), Nestorians (Iraqi Orthodox), and Chaldaeans (Iraqi Catholic).

The Ottoman Empire collapsed after it made the mistake of siding with Germany in WWI. In order to save the ethnically-Turkish core of the empire, Turkish nationalists under Mustapha Kemal (this is the origin of the phrase “young Turk”) abandoned the non-Turkish periphery of the empire and retrenched to their Anatolian heartland. They then set about a program of ethnic cleansing to rid this heartland of non-Turks. This meant Christians, in addition to a war against the Moslem Kurds that is still going on today. The Aegean coast of Turkey, for example, where Hector fought Achilles, had been inhabited by Greeks since classical times. These Christian communities were uprooted or destroyed in place. Ironically, Kemal was a secularist who imposed the first separation of mosque and state on a Moslem nation. However, this did not stop him from being brutal to the Christians under Turkish rule, a signal warning to those who expect state-imposed top-down secularization to eradicate the ingrained habits of intolerance and domination bred into Moslem nations by Islam. The end result was the same: churches demolished or converted into mosques, and communities that used to worship in them dispersed or dead.

In this period, the burning of the Greek city of Smyrna and the massacre and scattering of its three hundred thousand Christian inhabitants is one of the most poignant – if not, after the vast outrages of the 20th century, the bloodiest – crimes in all history. It marked the end of the Greek community in Asia Minor. On the eve of its destruction, Smyrna was a bustling port and commercial center. It was a genuinely civilized, in the old-world sense, place. An American consul-general later remembered a busy social life that included teas, dances, musical afternoons, games of tennis and bridge, and soirees given in the salons of the highly cultured Armenian and Greek bourgeoisie.

Sic gloria transit: sporadic killings of Christians, mostly Armenians, started as soon as the Turks overran it on September 9, 1922. Within days, they escalated to mass slaughter. It did not “get out of hand,” however, in the sense of an uncontrolled chaos perpetrated by an uncommanded military rabble. The Turkish military authorities deliberately escalated it. The Greek Orthodox Bishop Chrysostomos remained with his flock. The Moslem mob fell upon him, uprooted his eyes and, as he was bleeding, dragged him by his beard through the streets of the Turkish quarter, beating and kicking him. Every now and then, when he had the strength to do so, he would raise his right hand and blessed his persecutors. A Turk got so furious at this gesture that he cut off his hand with his sword. He fell to the ground, and was hacked to pieces by the angry mob. The carnage culminated in the burning of Smyrna, which started on September 13 when the Turks put the Armenian quarter to torch and the conflagration engulfed the city. The remaining inhabitants were trapped at the seafront, from which there was no escaping the flames on one side, or Turkish bayonets on the other. This was the end of Christianity in Asia Minor, whose history goes back to events recorded in the New Testament itself.

The topic of the genocide of the Christian Armenians by the Turks between 1915 and 1923 – a genocide that the Turkish government denies to this day, a situation analogous to having Holocaust-denial be the official position of the German government – is a vast one in itself and cannot be adequately treated here beyond noting that 1.5 million died.

The suffering of Middle Eastern Christian communities enjoyed a brief lull after WWI. Particularly in the newly-independent or semi-dependent Arab states that had been set up by the British and French as franchisees of their empires, the new European colonial presence meant that it was no longer possible to enforce the more drastic discriminatory practices, let alone ethnic cleansing, against the surviving Christian population. Britain and France were still meaningfully Christian nations at this time, and their colonial administrators did not tolerate the grosser forms of anti-Christian persecution in the lands under their rule. But this was merely a temporary improvement, not a permanent solution. As one scholar has lamented,

“But at the very time that Europe achieved its military and geopolitical advantage, the moral and religious decline that culminated in the autogenocides of 1914 and 1939 had become evident. Having found in their grasp places their Crusader predecessors had only dreamed of reclaiming Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople - effete and demoralized European governments made no effort to re-christianise them and, within a few decades, meekly abandoned them. The moral disarmament of contemporary post-Christian Europe is now nearly universal. After World War I, with the installation of nominally “pro-Western” governments in many Moslem countries fashioned from the wreckage of the Ottoman Empire, the West seems to have convinced itself of the existence of benign Islam.”

The Europeans, of course, eventually left, the British having given the world, albeit in a clumsy and dishonest manner that they tried to back out of in the end, the state of Israel; the French having accomplished essentially nothing beyond bringing a bit of elegance to Beirut, once known as the Paris of the Middle East.

Since WWII, the Moslem nations of the Middle East and environs have lurched from one disastrous political experiment to another, flirting with socialism (Egypt under Nasser), fascism (the Ba’ath Party in Syria and Iraq), Marxism (Yemen), development-oriented authoritarianism (Iran under the Shah), monarcho-kleptocracy (Kuwait), monarcho-Islamism (Saudi Arabia), Islamism (Iran under the mullahs), ethnic gerrymandering (Lebanon prior to 1975), civil war (Lebanon 1975-1990), colonialism (Syrian rule in Lebanon 1990-present), Pan-Africanism (Khadaffy in some of his moods), fake democracy (Jordan), secular militarism (Turkey, except when Islamists were nominally in charge), and warlordism (Afghanistan). Each of these experiments has been somewhat more or less tolerant of Christians, but the constant has been that none has been particularly friendly. There have been a few shining exceptions, like the years in Lebanon when Christians had a secured place in government thanks to the “national pact” and the pro-Western Shah of Iran, who was fairly reasonable not only towards Christians, but towards Jews and to Iran’s two exotic religious minorities, the Zoroastrians and the Bahais.

But generally in the post-WWII era, the perceived slight of infidel presence and direct or indirect dominance in the Arab world has resulted in a backlash in the form of an Islamic religious revival. Notably in the aftermath of the Arab defeats of 1967 and 1973, Christians were subjected to new restrictions. In Egypt the construction of new churches by the Copts was obstructed, a quota system was instituted regarding university admissions, Christians were barred from high government positions, and they were even accused of complicity with Zionism on the grounds of conciliatory statements from the Vatican about the Jews. The process of Islamic resurgence reached a new peak with the fall of the Shah and the Islamic revolution in Iran 1979. It is notable that only religious communities predating the arrival of Islam in Persia are tolerated, while the later ones, such as Bahais, are regarded as apostates subject to death penalty.

As late as 1955, Istanbul’s Christians suffered what William Dalrymple called “the worst race riot in Europe since Kristallnacht.” Following the last pogrom, Christians have retained only nominal presence in Turkey, completely contingent on the good will of the government in Ankara. Further east, in Asia Minor and the Lepanto, some Christian communities survive, but their numbers, like the exterminated Jewish villages of Poland, are a pale shadow of what they were only two centuries ago. Entire Christian peoples have been obliterated since that time, in completely successful acts of ethnocide.

It is remarkable that in this age of rampant victimology the persecutions of Christians by Moslems has become a taboo subject in the Western academe. A complex web of myths, outright lies, and deliberately imposed silence dominates it. Thirteen centuries of religious discrimination, causing suffering and death of countless millions, have been covered by the myth of Islamic “tolerance” that is as hurtful to the few descendants of the victims as it is useless as a means of appeasing latter-day jihadists. The silence and lies, perpetrated by the Western academe and media class, facilitates the perpetuation of religious discrimination and persecution even today.

Note: here is a brief list of the surviving Christian communities of the Middle East, courtesy of ArabicBible.com.

Egypt: The Copts of Egypt -- Orthodox, Catholics, and Protestants -- are estimated to be between 10 and 12 million, dispersed across the country. They are the descendants of the ancient Egyptian people living under the Pharaohs. Their numbers shrank after the Arab-Moslem invasion in 740 A.D. and flourished under the British in the 19th century. One million Copts live in the diaspora, particularly in the United States and Canada.

Sudan: Seven million black Africans live in the south. Most of these tribes are Christians-Anglicans, other Protestants, and Catholics. After the Islamic conquest, the Africans of Nubia were displaced to the south. Since the Islamist takeover in the north in 1989, they have been submitted to ethnic cleansing and forced to abandon their faith in order to protect their lives. One million south Sudanese are living in exile.

Lebanon: The Christians --Maronites, Orthodox, Melkites, and others, including Protestants -- number about 1.5 million. Since 1975, hundreds of thousands have been massacred, displaced, and exiled. Since 1990, the Christian areas of Lebanon have been under Syrian occupation. There are more than 7 million Lebanese Christians in the diaspora. More than 1.5 million Americans are of Lebanese descent.

Iraq: About 1 million Christian Assyrians, Nestorians, Chaldeans, and others live in Iraq. Most are concentrated in the north. The Assyrians are submitted to cultural and political repression. Approximately 1 million Christian Mesopotamians live in North America, Europe, and Australia.

Syria: One million Christians are Syrian citizens. Deprived of cultural and educational rights, Syria's Aramaeans, Armenians, Orthodox, and Melkites are present in the northeast and in the major cities.

Iran: Five hundred thousand Persian, Armenian, and Assyrian Christians from all denominations live in constant fear under the Islamic Republic of Iran. Christian spiritual leaders are executed by the government. There is slightly greater tolerance for varieties of Christianity that pre-date Islam in Persia.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Serge Trifkovic received his PhD from the University of Southampton in England and pursued postdoctoral research at the Hoover Institution at Stanford. His past journalistic outlets have included the BBC World Service, the Voice of America, CNN International, MSNBC, U.S. News & World Report, The Washington Times, the Philadelphia Inquirer, The Times of London, and the Cleveland Plain Dealer. He is foreign affairs editor of Chronicles.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: balkans; christianpersecutio; deathcult; islam; islamicviolence; religionofpeace; victims; war
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1 posted on 12/23/2002 5:06:53 PM PST by SJackson
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Yehuda; Alouette; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Optimist; weikel; ...
If you'd like to be on or off this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.
2 posted on 12/23/2002 5:27:37 PM PST by SJackson
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To: SJackson
Anti-Christian Crusades of the 20th Century

Why Are Orthodox Christians New World Order's Designated Victims?
By Bob Djurdjevic

PHOENIX, July 23, 2000 - During the original crusades, mediaeval Europeans tried to forcibly convert or kill non-Christians. Nine centuries later, not much has changed. The world is just as uncivilized now. Only tables have turned. We are now witnessing pogroms against the Christians, especially the Orthodox Christians, the designated victims of the 20th century crusades.
As you saw in my last New Dawn column, nearly 200 million people have been killed by government actions alone in the last 100 years, according to a study by Prof. R.J. Rummell of the University of Hawaii. More than 100 million of the victims were Christians. A vast majority of those were Orthodox Christians.
But while the zeal to shed human blood is still here, a higher cause is missing in the 20th century edition of the crusades. Early Christian crusaders sinned out of ignorance, blinded by the power of their beliefs, and manipulated by men of evil designs. The New World Order leaders are the men and women of evil designs. Their crimes are premeditated. They kill with their eyes wide open. They snuff out innocent lives for money and power while claiming “humanitarian” ideals.
What makes the anti-Christian crimes of the 1990s particularly heinous, perhaps even more repugnant than those of the Nazis, the Soviets or the Maoists, is that the New World Order leaders have no moral compass. As I quoted in my Washington Times Dec. 29, 1996 column, in reference to a Serb “opposition” politician, "(Zoran) Djindjic is close to Clinton as a postmodern politician. He really believes in nothing."
"Close to Clinton... Believes in Nothing!" Now, that just about sums up the New World Order mantra.
Their creed is, "I believe in nothing!" Their crest: The Almighty Dollar. Their object of worship: The Golden Calf. Their holy shrine: Wall Street. Their holy water: Coca-Cola. Their disciples: Washington politicians.
In their world, everything is for sale. Nothing is sacred. Faceless uniformity and blind loyalty are the norm, as in communist dictatorships. If God were to (re)create the world by the designs of the “Princes of the 20th Century” - the multinationals who sit at the head table of the New World Order, there would be only three kinds of creatures:
· All two-legged creatures would be ostriches
· All four-legged ones would be sheep
· All sea-living creatures would be sardines, anxiously waiting in long lines at the Princes' canning factory docks for their turn to jump into cans, and be exported to some distant low-cal, low-brow; low-IQ, but immensely happy consumer society.
Thanks to a steady diet of CNN served with Coca-Cola.
By contrast, people who “believe in something;” who are proud of their uniqueness; who adhere to a strict moral code; who believe in trinity and laugh at the "menage à trois" - people like that are the enemies of the New World Order. They are the cogs in the Princes’ wheels.
Enter Orthodox Christians; the Serbs especially. Why the Serbs first and foremost? Because they’ve always been Christianity’s frontiersmen. And because they “believe.” To the death! Literally.
…………………………………………
The URL of the complete article is: http://www.truthinmedia.org/Columns/new-dawn-7-2k.html

3 posted on 12/23/2002 6:05:26 PM PST by uplandgame
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To: SJackson
In order to save the ethnically-Turkish core of the empire, Turkish nationalists under Mustapha Kemal (this is the origin of the phrase “young Turk”) abandoned the non-Turkish periphery of the empire and retrenched to their Anatolian heartland. They then set about a program of ethnic cleansing to rid this heartland of non-Turks.

Couple of caveats.

The Young Turks came around quite a while before this. They were the ones who led the Ottoman Empire into war on the side of Germany.

The fact that Greece invaded Turkey, under the encouragement of the Allies is ignored. It is made to seem as if Kemal just decided to attack the Anatolian Greeks, without any provocaion whatsoever.

AAMOF, the expulsion of the Anatolian Greeks bears a lot of semblance to the Israeli expulsion of the Palestinians Arabs. Both sided with invaders and paid the price. The Greeks have done a far better job of absorbing their refugees.

4 posted on 12/23/2002 6:06:31 PM PST by Restorer
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To: sphinx; Toirdhealbheach Beucail; curmudgeonII; roderick; Notforprophet; river rat; csvset; ...
Christianity vs the Religion of Peace ping!!!!

If you want on or off the Western Civilization Military History ping list, let me know.
5 posted on 12/23/2002 9:57:30 PM PST by Sparta
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To: Sparta
Bump.
6 posted on 12/23/2002 10:19:07 PM PST by SAMWolf
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: SJackson
bump
8 posted on 12/23/2002 11:22:54 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: SJackson
“They were, upon the whole, from the black day when they first entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity. Wherever they went a broad line of blood marked the track behind them, and, as far as their dominion reached, civilization disappeared from view. They represented everywhere government by force as opposed to government by law. — Yet a government by force can not be maintained without the aid of an intellectual element. — Hence there grew up, what has been rare in the history of the world, a kind of tolerance in the midst of cruelty, tyranny and rapine. Much of Christian life was contemptuously left alone and a race of Greeks was attracted to Constantinople which has all along made up, in some degree, the deficiencies of Turkish Islam in the element of mind.”

Now that's my kind of language!

9 posted on 12/23/2002 11:33:14 PM PST by The Great Satan
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To: SJackson
[the Armenian genocide] a genocide that the Turkish government denies to this day, a situation analogous to having Holocaust-denial be the official position of the German government ? is a vast one in itself and cannot be adequately treated here beyond noting that 1.5 million died. Why do the governments of both Israel and the USA back up the Turks in this outrageous claim?
10 posted on 12/23/2002 11:42:09 PM PST by BlackVeil
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To: SJackson
bump
11 posted on 12/23/2002 11:49:17 PM PST by VOA
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To: SJackson
BTTT
12 posted on 12/24/2002 12:34:22 AM PST by Michael2001
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To: Restorer; pkpjamestown
The fact that Greece invaded Turkey, under the encouragement of the Allies is ignored.
It is made to seem as if Kemal just decided to attack the Anatolian Greeks,
without any provocaion whatsoever.

Yes, I do detect a little bias in this article.

The Greeks invaded Turkey with the intention of re-establishing the Byzantine Empire.

(A slight case of over-reaching)

The Greeks were defeated by General Kemal Pasha
(later Ataturk)
who thus was launched on his road to power.

(So the Greeks were responsible for the rise of Ataturk)

The Greek generals in charge of this ludicrously stupid enterprise were executed
after their return to their homeland.

The Greeks have been whining about those nasty Turks
(even on this forum)
ever since.

13 posted on 12/24/2002 12:49:05 AM PST by Allan
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To: SJackson
Bump for later reading!
14 posted on 12/24/2002 5:51:04 AM PST by F-117A
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To: Sparta
Thanks for the ping.
15 posted on 12/24/2002 9:51:02 AM PST by sistergoldenhair
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To: dennisw; watchin; VOA; harpseal; timestax; xJones; justshutupandtakeit; TopDog2; ThomasMore; ...
Most people take for granted that the Middle East is a Moslem region of the world. What they forget is that this region, which was of course the birthplace of Christianity, has a long history of Christian communities. These, however, have been the most readily-accessible targets of jihad, so they have been under relentless attack for centuries.

Islam-list

If people want on or off this list, please let me know.

16 posted on 12/24/2002 1:22:25 PM PST by knighthawk
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To: Allan
The Greeks were defeated by General Kemal Pasha (later Ataturk) who thus was launched on his road to power.

His being primarily responsible for the Turkish victory at Gallipoli (just about the only major Turkish success of the war) may have had something to do with it, too!

17 posted on 12/24/2002 5:34:29 PM PST by Restorer
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To: Allan
The demise of the british empire is yet to come!
18 posted on 12/26/2002 7:14:22 PM PST by pkpjamestown
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To: Allan
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/812694/posts
19 posted on 12/26/2002 7:31:36 PM PST by pkpjamestown
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To: SJackson
A NEW CENTURY OF CHRISTIAN MARTYRDOM

A book that relates the untold story of the murder of 45
million Christians in the 20th century alone has
caused controversy in Italy.
The author of The New
Persecuted: Inquiries into Anti-Christian Intolerance in
the New Century of Martyrs, Antonio Socci, has been accused
that by raising the issue of Christian suffering
in the Muslim world he
"demonizes Islam."

Socci provides evidence that in the past 2,000 years some 70
million Christians have been killed primarily or
exclusively for the reason of their faith,
two-thirds in the
past 100 years alone, with Joseph Stalin as the
chief culprit. He says that an average of 160,000
Christians have been killed every year since 1990,
the vast majority by Muslims in the Third World. Chronicling attacks,
pogroms and wars in East Timor, Indonesia,
Sudan, Egypt, Pakistan, India, and the Balkans, Socci
identifies Islamic extremism as the main danger. And
yet, says he, "This global persecution of Christianity
is still in progress but in most cases is ignored by the mass media and Christians in the west."

Western indifference to Christian suffering, documented by
Antonio Socci, is well illustrated by the recent
standoff at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, one
of the holiest Christian sites in the Holy Land,
which was re-consecrated last month after being occupied by Arab
gunmen and besieged by the Israeli army...

A NEW CENTURY OF CHRISTIAN MARTYRDOM: THE UNTOLD MIDDLE EASTERN CRISIS

THE ISLAMIC CONQUEST OF BRITAIN

ISLAM: THE FOLLY OF APPEASEMENT

A Wahhabism Problem

ISLAM'S NAZI CONNECTIONS

ISLAM'S OTHER VICTIMS: INDIA

AS THE MUSLIMS WERE SAVING CIVILIZATION...

"THE GOLDEN AGE OF ISLAM IS A MYTH"

"TURKEY AND THE EUROPEAN UNION"

"TURKEY, ISLAMIC AND DANGEROUS"

"London to host Islamic 'celebration' of Sept 11"

Cleric urges Muslims in UK to become martyrs

20 posted on 12/27/2002 4:39:03 AM PST by OriginalHeyduke
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To: Restorer; Allan
Greece invaded Turkey

Would you deny Spain it's Reconquista?
Ancient Greek civilisation vs. Turkish tribe culture latter descent.
Can you really invade realms rightfully yours?
The Byzantine Empire held Arabs in check for several hundred years, more than could be said about Spain. The weakening of it by the 4th crusade evidently took it's toll.
The Rascian Emperor wanted undertake a crusade against the Ottomans, but the attempt was obstructed by the Catholic Hungarians.
Given the result of the battle 1389, the Turkish Sultan was slain, a crusade with much more combatants and earlier undertaking would most probably have been successful.
The Ottomans would not have gained the strength they had when they met the Serb forces 1389.

the expulsion of the Anatolian Greeks bears a lot of semblance to the Israeli expulsion of the Palestinians Arabs.

Now, that is a strange perception...

His being primarily responsible for the Turkish victory at Gallipoli

Not much would have happen with the Turkish army if it wasn't for Liman von Sanders.
He accepted command of the Turkish First Army in the Bosporus. Later he was placed at the head of the Fifth Army sited at Gallipoli, and is widely credited with overseeing the failure of the Allied army's attempt to land there.
He was unsuccessful in his attempts to prevent the Armenian massacres or to persuade War Minister Enver Pasha to cease military operations in the Caucasus in 1916.
21 posted on 12/27/2002 5:42:20 AM PST by OriginalHeyduke
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To: OriginalHeyduke
His being primarily responsible for the Turkish victory at Gallipoli

Kemal Pasha Ataturk that is.
22 posted on 12/27/2002 5:58:33 AM PST by OriginalHeyduke
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To: OriginalHeyduke
>>Can you really invade realms rightfully yours?

To answer your question involves the definition of the term "rightfully," which is perhaps the biggest can of worms of history.

Does the US have a "right" to the territory it now occupies, most of which was acquired by conquest from the original inhabitants, in a way not terribly dissimilar from how the Turks gained control of Asia Minor?

On what rationale did the 20th century Kingdom of Greece hold title to Anatolia, last controlled by Christians of the Eastern Roman Empire 700 or 800 years earlier? Are you aware that it is highly debatable whether there is much genetic connection from the ancient Hellenes to the modern Greeks? Most of the modern inhabitants of Turkey are probably as genetically "Greek" as the inhabitants of modern Greece.

Do Moslems have a legitimate right to live anywhere on Earth, in your eyes?

BTW, have you ever read about the atrocities committed by the advancing (and retreating) Greek Army in Anatolia?
23 posted on 12/27/2002 7:53:08 AM PST by Restorer
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To: OriginalHeyduke
Here is an interesting link to an official Allied (and therefore presumably not totally biased) report on the Greek invasion and retreat.

As you can see, both sides committed atrocities.
24 posted on 12/27/2002 8:14:50 AM PST by Restorer
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To: OriginalHeyduke
Sorry.

http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupa/sam/groccupa.htm
25 posted on 12/27/2002 8:15:14 AM PST by Restorer
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To: OriginalHeyduke
Can you really invade realms rightfully yours?

The Selcuk Turks had occupied most of Anatolia since the 12th century.

By your reasoning, North America rightfully belongs to the Native Indians
since European invaders arrived here much later than the Turks to Anatolia.

26 posted on 12/27/2002 9:41:30 AM PST by Allan
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To: Restorer
Thanks for the link.
27 posted on 12/27/2002 10:33:26 AM PST by Allan
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To: OriginalHeyduke; Restorer
IMHO Turkey rightfully belongs to the Hittites
the earliest known occupants, circa 2000 B.C.,
and if the descendents of King Tuwana can be located
it should be restored to them.
28 posted on 12/27/2002 10:45:57 AM PST by Allan
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To: Allan
The Seljuks occupied most of Anatolia after the battle of Manzikert in 1071. But control seesawed back and forth for the next couple of centuries between the Byzantines and various Moslem entities.
29 posted on 12/27/2002 10:47:59 AM PST by Restorer
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To: Allan
The Seljuks occupied most of Anatolia after the battle of Manzikert in 1071. But control seesawed back and forth for the next couple of centuries between the Byzantines and various Moslem entities.
30 posted on 12/27/2002 10:47:59 AM PST by Restorer
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To: Allan
This whole idea has caused immense numbers of wars.

For instance, who has "title" to most of the Balkans?

At various times, Serbian, Bulgarian, Greek, Turkish and assorted other nationalities had empires which controllled the same areas. So who has the "right" to them?

Historical claims are a giant worldwide can of worms. The only logical approach that will prevent fighting is to allow the present inhabitants to vote and abide by the results.
31 posted on 12/27/2002 10:54:17 AM PST by Restorer
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To: Restorer; Allan
Can you really invade realms rightfully yours?

Would you deny Spain it's Reconquista?!
It took them 700 yrs.

Does the US have a "right" to the territory it now occupies,

Observe that this has nothing to do with US, but everything to do with Europe at that time and today. BTW the analogy could also be used against Turkey considering the Kurds etc.

As the posted article shows it's war between civilisations, were Christian cultures have been diminishing for several hundred years.
And yes I still claim the right of defence!
Though I agree with you on atrocities in general, the Turkish side have been indulged for centuries, with fanatic zeal trying to islamise every subdued entity.
Convince yourself if you bother going through #20.

the expulsion of the Anatolian Greeks bears a lot of semblance to the Israeli expulsion of the Palestinians Arabs.

Please elaborate?

Do Moslems have a legitimate right to live anywhere on Earth, in your eyes?

Rather naïve...
Indeed they have, in their own Muslim countries. In Christian countries as minorities yes, as would be masters no. That's kind of the whole idea of me writing this...

BTW, have you ever read about the atrocities committed by the advancing (and retreating) Greek Army in Anatolia?

No, but now I know.
What about the Christian Assyrians you find them scattered all over Europe, did they also have a retreating army? What atrocity did the Armenians commit?
Who remembers the Armenians Hitler once asked?

The Selcuk Turks had occupied most of Anatolia since the 12th century.

The word Byzantine, in fact, comes from "Byzantium," which is the Greek name for a city on the Bosphorus. The Greeks colonized the area first, in the mid-600's BC, even before Alexander the Great brought his troops into Anatolia (334 BC). Greek culture continued its influence long after the region became part of the Roman Empire, in the 100's BC. But it was when Roman emperor Constantine the Great moved the capital of the Empire from Rome to Byzantium and renamed it Constantinople (Istanbul today), in 330 AD, that the Byzantine Empire really began. It lasted over 1000 years, ending finally in 1453, when the Ottoman Turks conquered Constantinople and renamed it Istanbul.

Hittites 2000 B.C
3000 BC First settlement of Troy...

Historical claims are a giant worldwide can of worms. The only logical approach that will prevent fighting is to allow the present inhabitants to vote and abide by the results.

Here I completely agree with you, but Yugoslavia is an excellent example where exactly none of those ideas have been applied. WWII genocide in that area, which is not supposed to be a genocide. If 1000.000 killed mainly from one ethnicity that's surely going to change things and especially the outcome of any voting.
Then you have dishonest interference, veiled motives and intentions of Jewish and Turkish meddling in internal affairs; allbright, rubin, cohen, kanne-clark, kuoshner and hitlery in efforts to turkify the entire south eastern European peninsula.
Not very honest not to clearly display political and regional ambitions that clearly changes the population compound of the area.
The question still remains, how Lewinsky got to be where she was and who it was to remotely control Herr Klinton into action...
32 posted on 12/27/2002 1:49:50 PM PST by OriginalHeyduke
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To: SJackson
Bump
33 posted on 12/27/2002 1:54:36 PM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: OriginalHeyduke
3000 BC First settlement of Troy...

Troy, of course, was not a Greek city.

34 posted on 12/27/2002 2:28:40 PM PST by Allan
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To: Allan
Troy, of course, was not a Greek city.

Couldn't remind myself of Troy being Turkish either.

Hittite:
1.A member of an ancient people living in Anatolia and northern Syria about 2000-1200 B.C.
2.The Indo-European language of the Hittites.
35 posted on 12/27/2002 5:04:35 PM PST by OriginalHeyduke
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To: *Christian persecutio; *Islamic_violence
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list
36 posted on 12/27/2002 5:20:58 PM PST by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: a_Turk; Turk2
ping
37 posted on 12/27/2002 9:18:47 PM PST by Allan
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To: Allan
LOL!!

Glorious those old days of conquest and debauchery.. Will they ever come again?

ROFLMAO!
38 posted on 12/27/2002 11:32:07 PM PST by a_Turk
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To: Restorer
Missed one out, but hey nobody's perfect.

The annual "blood levy" of Christian boys in peacetime was a novelty even by the Arabian standards. In Arabia those families unable to pay the crushing jizya were obliged to hand over their children to be sold into slavery, and to deduct their value from their assessment. But Turkish "devshirme," introduced by Sultan Orkhan (1326-1359), consisted of the periodic taking of a fifth of all Christian boys in the conquered territories:
On a fixed date, all the fathers were ordered to appear with their children in the public square. The recruiting agents chose the most sturdy and handsome children in the presence of a Muslim judge... The devshirme was an obvious infringement of the rights of the dhimmis-a reminder that their rights were far from secure, once and for all.

A NEW CENTURY OF CHRISTIAN MARTYRDOM: THE UNTOLD MIDDLE EASTERN CRISIS



Are you aware that it is highly debatable whether there is much genetic connection from the ancient Hellenes to the modern Greeks? Most of the modern inhabitants of Turkey are probably as genetically "Greek" as the inhabitants of modern Greece.

Well Sherlock, are you really sure how could that be?
Don't you think they liked their culture and themselves just fine before the Turkish encounter? Isn't this just proving the point, with the Turkish enslavement? Now do you call that civilised? A nice display of culture at it's finest, I suppose you'd say. Just like the nazi's Lebensborn program when they took women from occupied territories to breed children from. They also managed to vacuum-clean the same territories for blond children, who were given an id-number and to this date don't know their real identity. Wonder, whether they also were to be modern day janissaries and scholars for the Reich, just like the poor souls did, ending up for the Turks before them. Clearly shows the excellence, élan of culture and tolerance.

39 posted on 12/28/2002 6:44:58 PM PST by OriginalHeyduke
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To: a_Turk
Glorious those old days of conquest and debauchery..

You're doing a fine job of proving the article. I'll give you an A.

Will they ever come again?

Gee, let's ask the Kurds.

Some more insights from a "brilliant" mind...

The Turkish Factor in the Geopolitics of the Post-Soviet Space

40 posted on 12/28/2002 6:47:39 PM PST by OriginalHeyduke
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To: OriginalHeyduke; FormerLib; crazykatz; katnip; don-o; a_Turk
Byzantium was the world's greatest empire. The Hagia Sophia is my next travel stop.

"By far the most significant building is the great church of HAGIA SOPHIA (Church of the Holy Wisdom) in Constantinople (532-37), which retained a longitudinal axis but was dominated by its enormous central dome. Seventh-century Syriac texts suggest that this design was meant to show the church as an image of the world with the dome of heaven suspended above, from which the Holy Spirit descended during the liturgical ceremony."

41 posted on 12/28/2002 7:13:10 PM PST by MarMema
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To: Destro
Come on over!
42 posted on 12/28/2002 7:15:10 PM PST by MarMema
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To: Allan; Restorer
You can't invade what is your land. Liberation and invasion are two different things. Would you noy do anything to free Christians living in their ancestoral lands from once and future rampaging Muslims?

Restorer, you have it backwards. After all did the Jews "invade" Palestine?

43 posted on 12/28/2002 9:42:18 PM PST by Destro
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To: Restorer; Allan
Gallipolli was a German victory. General Kemal was under TOTAL German command. The victory belongs to the German commander of the Ottoman Fifth Army, Major General Otto Liman von Sanders.
44 posted on 12/28/2002 9:45:36 PM PST by Destro
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To: OriginalHeyduke
Great minds think alike-see my 43-44.
45 posted on 12/28/2002 9:47:41 PM PST by Destro
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To: SJackson; uplandgame; Restorer; Sparta; SAMWolf; skull stomper; LiteKeeper; The Great Satan; ...
Example of Turkish Muslim mob beating to death a Christian in Cyprus on August 11 1996:

Tassos Isaac is beaten down by the Turkish Muslim mob on August 11 1996.

Help Identify The Murderers of Tassos Isaac

Turkish Muslim mob deliver the death blows to Tassos Isaac on August 11 1996.

Watch the Muslim Turk mob beat the Christian to death with rocks and clubs

Video of Isaac's Murder 2MB .avi

46 posted on 12/28/2002 10:22:15 PM PST by Destro
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To: Destro
The Religion of Peace strikes again.
47 posted on 12/28/2002 10:23:22 PM PST by Sparta
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To: Destro
The pereps are probably all graduates of the "Patty Murray Memorial Religion of Peace School" that Bin Laden built.
48 posted on 12/28/2002 10:26:38 PM PST by SAMWolf
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To: SJackson
put me on this ping list... (as if I don't get enough already, but I'm a glutton for this history stuff)
49 posted on 12/28/2002 10:31:57 PM PST by Frohickey
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To: SAMWolf
Probably right. Turkey does get a lot of congressional funding.
50 posted on 12/28/2002 10:36:53 PM PST by Destro
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