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Who's Germany? A Study In Irrelevance
Vanity | 12/26/02 | Sparta

Posted on 12/26/2002 5:06:45 PM PST by Sparta

We've been bombarded by leftist media outlets about the fact that many nations oppose President Bush's Iraq policy. These opposing nations are often held up as more enlightened than the United States. One of the leaders of the "don't bomb Iraq" crowd is a little country in Europe called Germany.

For those of you who don't know who Germany is, they are the nation which has started both world wars we've been in this century. Germany was completely and utterly destroyed during World War II. She was then rebuilt in the largest aid package in world history by the nation which led her defeat, the United States. We, during and after the Cold War, stationed thousands of troops to guarantee this nation's security. The United States equipped and trained the new German Bundeswehr when most other conquerers would have found a way to exploit their conquered. (Ex: The Soviet occupation of East Germany.)

Now, Germany has one of the largestest economies in Europe and one of Europe's finest militaries. But, they are no longer the global power they once were.

Germany is trying to get the rest of the world to take them seriously by criticizing Bush publicly. Current Chancellor Gerhart Schroder's reelection campaign focused on anti-American rhetoric. His Justice Minister compared Bush to Hitler. In the end, Schroder was barely reelected.

Now tell me if this is an important nation or a culture that his contributed to Western Civilization. Germany's economy is in a free fall. To attempt to solve this, Comrade Schroder is proposing income tax increases and a wealth tax, among other proposals. His Foreign Minister threw rocks at police during demonstrations against the very American soldiers who protect his country. Also, for your information, the birthplace of Karl Marx was none other than Germany. Germany, outside of Nietzsche and a few others, has been the cultural home for the latest tyrannical and anti-Western philosophies ever devised in history.

What does the future hold for Germany? Germany, through the European Union(Fourth Reich), stands to become the leader of Europe. I think Germany will lead Europe. It will become the first nation in Europe to adopt Sharia(Islamic law). Many of you will disagree and say France will be the first. I happen to have faith in the French that I don't have for Germany. I think France will return to the civilized world and remember the fact they are a nation founded on the promise of liberty for all of its citizens. Germany has no idea of liberty, however. During the Weimar Republic, the main parties in Germany all called for an end to the Republic and an institution of tyrannical government. Germany, after World War II, wrote argueably one of the most statist documents posing as a constitution in the world. So, Sharia should not be much of a stretch for them.

I hope Germany realizes two things. One, that socialism and statism don't work and never will. Two, that Germany will benefit more by being more aggressive against terrorism. Also, Germany would be wise to emulate the United States, not just attacking it. Unfortunately, there are few in Germany who are willing to learn these lessons.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Germany; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: germany
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What say all of you.
1 posted on 12/26/2002 5:06:45 PM PST by Sparta
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To: Sparta
Now, Germany has one of the largestest economies in Europe and one of Europe's finest militaries. But, they are no longer the global power they once were.

Finest militaries???? Really????

Didn't they have to borrow a old Ukrainian tug boat to transport token troops to Afghanistan?

Germany is finished..

2 posted on 12/26/2002 5:17:55 PM PST by qam1
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To: Sparta
I work with a number of Germans, and other Europeans. My honest opinion is that they think they are so brainwashed about America by their own liberal press that they haven't a clue.

If you think CNN is bad, try a few straight weeks of CNN International & SkyNews-- you'll be hating America too! I have more faith in Germany than you-- but the EU must be severely reduced in power for Germany to regain her former stature.

3 posted on 12/26/2002 5:18:37 PM PST by RobFromGa
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To: Sparta
Good Post
4 posted on 12/26/2002 5:19:16 PM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: qam1
I meant that in a comparison to everyone else in Europe. Also, the Germans cut their military in a time of war this year.
5 posted on 12/26/2002 5:19:41 PM PST by Sparta
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To: qam1
They must be talking a different Germany and France than I knew.When the French beat the Germans at anything that will also be the day. The English will be the first nation to succumb to Sharia law. They are by far the biggest immigrant nation in Europe. They absorbed all the rejects from their abandoned colonies.
6 posted on 12/26/2002 5:29:12 PM PST by meenie
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To: All
We have a neighbor kid who signed up for the Army last year.

He is being sent to Germany in a month or so.

WHY do we have troops in Germany at ALL anymore?

It's a European joke? Or what?

7 posted on 12/26/2002 7:08:32 PM PST by Birdlady
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To: Birdlady; Sparta
One fact that is easily overlooked is that, during the Cold War, our troops were not merely stationed in Europe to defend their host countries, but our interests as well.

As for the current state of affairs, if you believe our troops have no reason to be there, it is useless to explain why they are there.

8 posted on 12/26/2002 7:15:05 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: Birdlady
We've still got about 75,000 GIs (and their dependents) in Germany in 26 locations. They don't have a mission and, when they had to send tanks to Kosovo, found they couldn't get them there before they could be sent from the states.

The cost of maintaining our ground forces, and their dependents with the necessary schools, medical facilities, PXs, etc. in Germany is gigantic. It's way past time we brought them home.

9 posted on 12/26/2002 7:18:52 PM PST by caltrop
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To: 1rudeboy
Well 1rudeboy, why don't you take a crack at explaining it anyway. I served as a Colonel in our Army in Europe and would love to have your expert, first hand opinion on why our troops should remain in Germany.
10 posted on 12/26/2002 7:21:36 PM PST by caltrop
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To: caltrop
You have an interesting tone for a Colonel. How about the doctrine of "forward defense?" Surely you picked it up at West Point.
11 posted on 12/26/2002 7:28:44 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy
Prior to the end of the Cold War the Army had a mission in Europe. At that point, and for the 35 years up to that point, our forces in Europe were there for a reason.

You'll find my tone is fairly consistent among Colonels who don't suffer fools lightly.

12 posted on 12/26/2002 7:33:11 PM PST by caltrop
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To: caltrop
45, not 35, years up to that point.
13 posted on 12/26/2002 7:37:11 PM PST by caltrop
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To: Sparta
I appreciate your view on germany. However, I don't agree at all with the tone of it. Germany has contributed a great deal to european and american civilizations. does teh name martin luther mean nothing to christians? or to people who remember the making of europe into something special? Germany's had thousands of years of a very important history. Weren't germans among the group that toppled Rome so many years ago? It is true that many rotten intellectuals have come from germany and that two terrible wars were started by the germans. But it would be a terrible thing for the muslims to rule germany. I have faith and hope that this won't happen.

My opinion also is the Germans should shut off new immigration and seek to make their nation prosperous, they should, just like us withdraw from the EU, the UN and the WTO.

The Germans have also been tremendous hosts to the US military since 1945. They have domestic political forces that keep them out of this US led war on iraq. I think we should respect that. Hasn't germany sent troops to afghanistan? I'm sure they had troops in our kosovo adventure from 3 years ago. They have been a good ally for 50 years, it is time to forget those 2 wars from previous that. We should want to see a strong germany, not a damaged germany. The absorption of the east in the last 13 years has been a huge sacrifice for the west germans.

I note also that when patrick henry gave his famous speech in the virginia state legislature at the time of the revolution about a third of the members in that legislature had german as their first language. If germany is so bad as you say, then america must be also because so many americans have german stock in them.
14 posted on 12/26/2002 7:40:12 PM PST by Red Jones
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To: caltrop
Our forces were there to check the Soviet expansion into Europe and, frankly, to make sure the Krauts never got the idea of starting a Fourth Reich.
15 posted on 12/26/2002 7:40:15 PM PST by Sparta
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To: caltrop
My experience is that Colonels tend to be more circumspect before determining whether someone is a fool, but I like your reply nonetheless.

My comment in #8 was directed to those that feel that our troops need to be returned from Europe as an article of faith . . . they are the ones with which it is useless to argue. As for me, I agree with the Pentagon's current assessment: that future conflicts will be regional; that those conflicts will come from unexpected quarters; and that our forces need to be positioned so that they may quickly respond to any such threats.

16 posted on 12/26/2002 7:42:38 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: Sparta
Those are good reasons for our forces to have been there. But they don't need to be there now. We can satisfy our obligation to NATO by leaving our Air Force bases in Europe but the idea that we should leave 75,000 GIs, at huge expense, sitting in Germany with no mission is indefensible.
17 posted on 12/26/2002 7:47:51 PM PST by caltrop
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To: Red Jones
First of all, this is not an attack on the German people, this an attack on the German view of the world and liberty. Our ideas of liberty came from three places primarily: Greece, Rome, and Britain. Most the German immigrants have ASSIMILATED into the primarily Anglo-Saxon culture of America.

America is great because we have ignored the statism expoused by Germany and all the other Eurotrash and embraced the Greek-Roman-British traditions of liberty.
18 posted on 12/26/2002 7:48:16 PM PST by Sparta
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To: Sparta
bump
19 posted on 12/26/2002 7:49:18 PM PST by foreverfree
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To: caltrop
I, personally, think that the troops should be redeployed to Poland because I think Russia is NOT our friend like Dubya and many others think.
20 posted on 12/26/2002 7:50:02 PM PST by Sparta
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To: 1rudeboy
And Germany is not the place for that rapid deployment.
21 posted on 12/26/2002 7:56:12 PM PST by DB
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To: Sparta
well, I certainly would agree that the crazy ideologies like marxism and nazism and frankfurth school of thought are not to be emulated at all. But I don't think ordinary germans pay any attention to that junk.
22 posted on 12/26/2002 8:04:04 PM PST by Red Jones
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To: 1rudeboy
I've no problem with pre-positioning troops where they'll be able to quickly respond. I'd leave our paratroops in Italy, for example. Unfortunately, we don't seem to be doing anything about expanding our Navy - we're down to something like 300 ships - and the Navy is our most flexible means of power projection. The Army can get the 82nd Airborne or the 173rd Airborne (Italy) to almost any location before the Navy can get there but, once they're committed, we're at war. Our troops in Germany have no mission and are unable to provide any sort of useful forward basing. The Army, wishing to stay in Europe, will tell you otherwise but it's only an excuse to stay there and, additionally, keep the Army from being further reduced. I'd contend it can't be reduced much more and that our forces are better positioned here at home. The savings could build more ships - something we'll desperately need in the future and which require a long lead time to produce.
23 posted on 12/26/2002 8:06:36 PM PST by caltrop
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To: Red Jones
Warum wollte ich irgandjemandem sagen, "Du kannst mich doch mal am arsch kuessen?"

Not you, certainly. Just somebody.

The German-bashers are out in force, today.

Es gibt immer noch Familien in Virginia, die Deutsch als Erstsprache kennen.

24 posted on 12/26/2002 8:09:41 PM PST by patton
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To: caltrop
Liberty Ships rolled off the ramps every three days.
25 posted on 12/26/2002 8:11:57 PM PST by patton
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To: Sparta
read later
26 posted on 12/26/2002 8:13:03 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: Sparta
I'm not inclined to want to have large numbers of ground troops in Europe. Air Force bases, however, are another story. They're fixed facilities and expensive to duplicate. In that regard, we've got an Air Force base at Taszar, Hungary.
27 posted on 12/26/2002 8:13:31 PM PST by caltrop
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To: meenie
My information is that the Islamic population in Britain is quite modest compared to that in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, etc.
28 posted on 12/26/2002 8:17:13 PM PST by crystalk
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To: Red Jones
If germany is so bad as you say, then america must be also because so many americans have german stock in them.

Americans of German descent have something more in them than German stock; they have the American spirit. They are not hyphenated Teutonic-Americans. They are true Americans.

29 posted on 12/26/2002 8:19:04 PM PST by stripes1776
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To: patton
I'm familiar with Henry Kaiser and his Liberty Ships but I suspect today's requirements have made it impossible to duplicate that sort of production. In any event, my concern is less for cargo ships than for warships. They seem to take forever to build and, where Reagan approached 600, we're close to 300 now.
30 posted on 12/26/2002 8:22:15 PM PST by caltrop
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To: All
It would appear that about 3.5% of the present American residents can speak some German from personal or family origins, as distinguished from having learned it in school.

These are mainly elderly, and are found in all parts of the country.

It would seem that from 22 to 24% of the non-Hispanic WHITE population of the USA are German surnamed, or were before anglicizing that often occurred in the 18th and 19th centuries, such as Klein to Cline, Steinbrenner to Stoneburner, Kreisler to Chrysler, etc.

Much of this immigration was from areas no longer under German control, however, and over 80% of it was non-Catholic...much of it was non-Lutheran also, because America served as a refuge for minority religious groups viewed as cults in Germany, such as Baptists, Calvinist and Reformed groups, Mennonites, etc.

Many of these were from areas now included in Czechoslovakia or Poland.

At one time, Wisconsin had dual German and English school systems, and some feared that State would remain German speaking forever.

German immigration peaked in the 1740-80 era, and again in the 1840-80 era. The heyday of Ellis Island saw relatively few German speakers come in, though many non-German Catholic elements from the Austrian and German empires did come then.

It is a little-known fact that over 10% of the German-speaking heritage now in USA are descendents of displaced persons and other refugees accepted here AFTER World War II, in the 1945-60 era.

If Schroeder keeps running Germany in the hole, maybe more will yet come over, if they think they can compete with blacks and Mexicans for jobs, in the very teeth of affirmative-action's labeling them as whites, quien en los estados unidos comen cola.

31 posted on 12/26/2002 8:31:13 PM PST by crystalk
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To: Sparta
Whatever you may think of their political leaders, their military has some class.

If you will recall, shortly after 9-11, the German Navy ship Lutjens hailed sailors from one of our ships. They were standing at attention at the rails, flying an American flag at halfmast, and holding a sign that said "We stand by you".

The primary problem with Germany is that, unlike our fringe political parties, their fascist "fringe" is rather large. Hitler was approved of by well less than the majority of Germans.

BTW, I am an American of mostly German ancestry.

32 posted on 12/26/2002 9:24:05 PM PST by garandgal
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To: RobFromGa
Back in college, I had a conservative Greek friend who was not only pro-America, but also pro-Israel. Basically, in Greece, just about the entire media is dominated by followers of communism.
33 posted on 12/26/2002 10:02:20 PM PST by LdSentinal
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To: patton
The Fish gave a pretty funny translation to that...

'Why I wanted to say to irgandjemandem, "you can me nevertheless times at the ass kiss?" There are still families in Virginia, which German as Erstsprache.'

I love babelfish translations. Translating english to german, then to spanish, then to french, then back to english can be pretty hilarious.

34 posted on 12/26/2002 10:53:41 PM PST by zeugma
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: Ottmar
Congratulations for expousing the Schroder line of propaganda.


36 posted on 12/27/2002 11:22:31 AM PST by Sparta
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To: Ottmar
The way to prevent all those worst case scenarios from happening is regime change in Iraq. Why don't you give me an example of how socialism and statism have worked?
37 posted on 12/27/2002 11:25:48 AM PST by Sparta
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To: caltrop
You bring up an interesting issue . . . once we bring those troops home, we will have few options other than demobilization for them. That fact does create an institutional motive to keep them where they are. I have yet to see an essay on that particular topic.

I have much faith in our airborne troops. But they require rapid reinforcement. So it is written. So it shall be.

38 posted on 12/27/2002 8:10:25 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: RobFromGa
The news media is simply pure anti-American...you can watch any of the main news networks and they all spout anti-American themes. They loved Bill Clinton because he was a liberal...but GW is simply not acceptable. They always want to show some moral highroad...as if better than America, and I went along with this attitude for several years. But I have come to realize that Germany is not all blue sky and pretty. There is a vast amount of racism, politicans are just as stupid as American politicans, and education here simply does not add up in the long run.

I spent my last 10 years in Germany, so I can say with authority that things don't measure up. As for the military angle...we are here because of the infrasture that the US has built. There are facilities worth several hundred billion dollars sitting here. If you decide to pull out and move back to the US....you can be sure that congress will not allow that troop strength to enter the US...it will simply say their mission as come to an end and dismiss 100,000 troops from DODs requirements. So, both the US Army and Air Force know the situation...their troops and facilities are gone forever. Not one building will be built in the US, not one troop will be assigned to a US facility...they will simply go away.
39 posted on 12/27/2002 10:13:27 PM PST by pepsionice
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To: 1rudeboy
I think we still have 2/3rds of two Divisions and a Corps HQ in Germany. If we demobilized them I think we'd have only one, instead of two, Armored Divisions and three instead of four Mechanized Infrantry. We dropped down to ten active Divisions from eighteen and, frankly, I can't see how we can go much lower. Even so, IMHO, that's insufficient reason to continue bearing the cost of keeping them in Germany.
40 posted on 12/28/2002 6:22:55 AM PST by caltrop
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To: Sparta
I get the impression that you don't like the current trends in Germany much. Understandable. Would I be wrong in concluding that you just don't like Germans very much, not just today's liberals but the people and culture as a historical whole? That's ok, we all have our preferences but your article here comes across as a rant that if aimed at others would be considered unenlightened prejudice and if the object of your ire were one of the more politically correct ethnic groups this piece would be pulled from this site in a second and you'd be thoroughly denounced. Not by me though; it is educational to see how others think and we can evaluate their other musings accordingly. Maybe I have your premise wrong but that is how I read it.

The only real problem I have with your post is that you say Germany started two world wars. Do you really mean W.W.I was the exclusive fault of the Germans?

41 posted on 12/28/2002 7:48:54 AM PST by u-89
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To: meenie
When the French beat the Germans at anything that will also be the day.

I am not Germany's or Germans fan, but French will never beat Germans at anything. (How many times they surrendered to Germans, how about French cars-would you like to own one?)

42 posted on 12/28/2002 8:08:05 AM PST by Anticommie
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To: Birdlady
We still keep troops in Germany to protect us and Europe from the Germans, not the other way around.
43 posted on 12/28/2002 8:15:14 AM PST by Republic of Texas
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To: Sparta; meenie
There is no way England, Germany or France will succumb to Shari Law.

Stroke of a pen, the Muslim religion will, under the right circumstances and causal of event(s), be virtually outlawed on the European Continent.

For example, god forbid the Vatican should be attacked ala WTC...the Muslim will be wearing a yellow star ala the German Jew in the 30's.... before you know it.

44 posted on 12/28/2002 8:17:31 AM PST by DCPatriot
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To: DCPatriot
The day Islam is outlawed, this planet will take a giant step forward. I don't see ANY country on Earth with the guts to do that right now.
45 posted on 12/28/2002 8:20:09 AM PST by Republic of Texas
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To: caltrop
Don't kid yourself. The American GI is in Germany for a twofold purpose.

As stated by sparta, Germany started both World Wars in the past century. We're there to make sure they continue to make great autos and NOT great offensive weapons.

46 posted on 12/28/2002 8:20:27 AM PST by DCPatriot
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To: DCPatriot
They will make a fine car on ya!
47 posted on 12/28/2002 8:22:14 AM PST by Republic of Texas
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To: u-89
Germany sure enlargened would would've been a regional war. It was looking out to be just a fight between Austria-Hungary and Serbia/Russia. Then, Germany declared on France and Russia and invaded Belgium to bring Britain and eventually the US in the war.
48 posted on 12/28/2002 8:23:38 AM PST by Sparta
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To: Republic of Texas
I'm probably talking out my butt when I suggest Islam will one day be "outlawed" in certain European countries.

Most likely there will be intense pressure for that religion to speak with one voice, ala the Pope for the Catholic Church. That would give the "religion police" the authority to act against any threat (verbal or act)with swift impunity...which will serve as added protection against terrorism.

Is the Islamic Faith too large to insert an "ex cathedra" (from the chair)voice to set rules for their members?

49 posted on 12/28/2002 8:30:34 AM PST by DCPatriot
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To: DCPatriot
Maybe if we could afford the financial burden of keeping them there it'd be worthy of serious argument. Unless you know where the money's coming from to maintain our readiness - including the cost of rebuilding the Navy - then you're the one who's kidding himself. The cost of maintaining our forces in Germany - with no real mission - is astronomical.
50 posted on 12/28/2002 10:39:00 AM PST by caltrop
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