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Statue of Abe Lincoln: "...a slap in the face of a lot of brave men..."
The Cincinnati Enquirer ^ | Friday, December 27, 2002 | AP

Posted on 12/27/2002 6:50:38 AM PST by yankeedame

Friday, December 27, 2002

Lincoln statue won't be embraced by all

The Associated Press

RICHMOND, Va. - Abraham Lincoln is returning to the capital of the Confederacy, much to the chagrin of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.

Five days before the Civil War ended in April 1865, the president and his youngest child, Tad, traveled to still-smoldering Richmond soon after Southern forces abandoned the city in flames. On April 5, 2003, the 138th anniversary of that visit, a bronze statue of the pair commissioned by the United States Historical Society will be unveiled at the Civil War Visitor Center of the National Park Service.

"Here is a national hero, a small boy, and a beautiful city by the James River, all united again," said Robert Kline, chairman of the nonprofit group society, which works on behalf of museums and other groups on projects of historic and artistic value. "This time Lincoln's in Richmond for all time."

Richmond, home to towering statues of Confederacy figures including Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson and J.E.B. Stuart, was abandoned after Union forces led by Gen. Ulysses S. Grant attacked on April 2, 1965.

The Sons of Confederate Veterans view the Lincoln statue as "a slap in the face of a lot of brave men and women who went through four years of unbelievable hell fighting an invasion of Virginia led by President Lincoln," Brag Bowling, the SCV Virginia commander, said Thursday. The group had only recently learned of the statue, and had no immediate plans to protest.

The life-size statue by sculptor David Frech will show Lincoln and his son on a bench against a granite wall. The words "To Bind Up The Nation's Wounds" will be etched into a capstone.


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: dixie
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1 posted on 12/27/2002 6:50:38 AM PST by yankeedame
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To: yankeedame
The south lost... C'mon, this guy is being a bit ridiculous. Is it also a slap in the face to fly the US flag in Richmond?
2 posted on 12/27/2002 6:52:26 AM PST by Koblenz
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To: Koblenz
If you stand close enough.
3 posted on 12/27/2002 6:57:19 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: yankeedame
The Sons of Confederate Veterans view the Lincoln statue as "a slap in the face of a lot of brave men and women who went through four years of unbelievable hell fighting an invasion of Virginia led by President Lincoln,"

Living in the past. As the Eagles song goes, "Get Over It..."

4 posted on 12/27/2002 6:58:34 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: yankeedame
Here's comes another "Was Lincoln a War Criminal?" thread. I better step into the shower here . . .excuse me . . .


5 posted on 12/27/2002 6:59:21 AM PST by BenLurkin
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To: yankeedame
Earlier FR thread based upon a Richmond paper's article on the statue.
6 posted on 12/27/2002 6:59:56 AM PST by berserker
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To: yankeedame
The Sons of Confederate Veterans view the Lincoln statue as "a slap in the face of a lot of brave men and women who went through four years of unbelievable hell fighting an invasion of Virginia led by President Lincoln," Brag Bowling, the SCV Virginia commander, said Thursday.

Maybe he'll remember that comment the next time he wonders why blacks (the descendants of people enslaved by the culture of his ancestors) get upset over Confederate flags and monuments. Maybe he'll remember that comment when blacks act like they don't like the term "states rights" which was used as a defense of legal, forced segregation into the early to mid 1960s. After all, a century of apartheid into generations which are currently middle aged does tend to make a people peevish.

7 posted on 12/27/2002 7:01:28 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: yankeedame
More PC crap being shoved down the Souths throat
As a Northerner I can't help but think all this PC garbage is doing nothing but alienating people including ME
Same goes for all the afirmative action etc etc .
It is doing nothing but building a huge resentment that isn't expressed but exists smoldering and will just build and build
8 posted on 12/27/2002 7:03:40 AM PST by uncbob
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: yankeedame
Yeah, Lincoln should know all about binding up the Nation's wounds.

He is the one that inflicted them!

10 posted on 12/27/2002 7:15:04 AM PST by crystalk
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To: crystalk
Lincoln was a known racist by today's standards.
11 posted on 12/27/2002 7:16:42 AM PST by AppyPappy
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To: yankeedame
The life-size statue by sculptor David Frech will show Lincoln and his son on a bench against a granite wall. The words "To Bind Up The Nation's Wounds" will be etched into a capstone.

I'd rather see a lifesize statue of Lincoln standing.

Oh well.

Walt

12 posted on 12/27/2002 7:17:06 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Koblenz
The south lost... C'mon, this guy is being a bit ridiculous. Is it also a slap in the face to fly the US flag in Richmond?

Kinda of ironic isn't that the most patriotic Americans now live in the southern and western states and the Northeast is the most liberal anti American
13 posted on 12/27/2002 7:17:30 AM PST by uncbob
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To: uncbob
I'm another Northerner (and a member of the Sons of Union Veterans) who echoes your sentiments.

Putting a statue of Lincoln in the middle of Richmond is intended to provoke people. In historical terms it's as relevant as putting a statue of Custer in the middle of a Sioux reservation or a statue of Daniel Webster in Seattle.

The same people who applaud changing the name of George Washington Junior High to Jomo Kenyatta Junior High are the people who support this kind of statue.

Leftists.

14 posted on 12/27/2002 7:19:25 AM PST by wideawake
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To: wideawake
agreed

to put the lincoln statue in perspective you have to notice that the gettysburg memorial is being redone because it is too "sympathetic" to the south.

the pc people are playing two sides off against the middle.
15 posted on 12/27/2002 7:22:47 AM PST by ckilmer
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To: AppyPappy
Lincoln was a known racist by today's standards.

But his views were far in advance of most people of his day.

He told Frederick Douglass that there was no man in the country whose opinion he valued more.

"Recognizing me, even before I reached him, he exclaimed, so that all around could hear him, "Here comes my friend Douglass." Taking me by the hand, he said, "I am glad to see you. I saw you in the crowd to-day, listening to my inaugural address; how did you like it?" I said, "Mr. Lincoln, I must not detain you with my poor opinion, when there are thousands waiting to shake hands with you." "No, no," he said, "you must stop a little, Douglass; there is no man in the country whose opinion I value more than yours. I want to know what you think of it?" I replied, "Mr. Lincoln, that was a sacred effort." "I am glad you liked it!" he said; and I passed on, feeling that any man, however distinguished, might well regard himself honored by such expressions, from such a man."

-- "With Malice Towards None", by Stephen Oates

When Douglass went to Lincoln's second inaugural ball, he was an escaped slave.

More Douglass:

"Viewed from the genuine abolition ground, Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical and determined."

Walt

16 posted on 12/27/2002 7:23:36 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Irrelevant. He must be crucified. He was a REPUBLICAN.
17 posted on 12/27/2002 7:24:36 AM PST by AppyPappy
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To: crystalk
Yeah, Lincoln should know all about binding up the Nation's wounds.

He is the one that inflicted them!

Lincoln constantly held out the hand of conciliation and forgiveness to the rebels.

All through 1862 he would have allowed the slave owners to keep their slaves if they would just acknowledge the authority of the national government. He suggested relocation schemes and compensated emancipation schemes; he was always ready to stop fighting and start talking--always.

As late as February 1865 he suggested that $400,000,000 in bonds be made available to the rebel states if they would acknowledge emancipation and federal supremacy.

It was the south that was bent on conquest and subjugation:

"We have the Executive with us, and the Senate & in all probability the H.R. too. Besides we have repealed the Missouri line & the Supreme Court in a decision of great power, has declared it, & all kindred measures on the part of the Federal Govt. unconstitutional null & void. So, that before our enemies can reach us, they must first break down the Supreme Court - change the Senate & seize the Executive & by an open appeal to Revolution, restore the Missouri line, repeal the Fugitive slave law & change the whole governt. As long as the Govt. is on our side I am for sustaining it, & using its power for our benefit, & placing the screws upon the throats of our opponents".

- Francis W. Pickens, Governor of South Carolina, June,1857

That doesn't sound much like, "with malice towards none, with charity for all," does it?

Walt

18 posted on 12/27/2002 7:32:15 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: uncbob
It is doing nothing but building a huge resentment that isn't expressed but exists smoldering and will just build and build

And don't think that isn't the intended result. The Clintons and other DimRATs, Jacksons, Sharptons, Farakhans, etc. all make a very good living at race baiting.

19 posted on 12/27/2002 7:39:06 AM PST by putupon
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To: AppyPappy
Irrelevant. He must be crucified. He was a REPUBLICAN.

You'd think Abraham Lincoln would get more support on a conservative website like FR, wouldn't you?

But most people stay mum, or parrot the crap of the neo-reb liars like the Sons of Confederate Veterans or the League of the South.

Walt

20 posted on 12/27/2002 7:52:32 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: WhiskeyPapa
I'm SCV. You may want to temper your troll-like behavior.
21 posted on 12/27/2002 7:54:03 AM PST by AppyPappy
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To: AppyPappy
I'm SCV. You may want to temper your troll-like behavior.

The SCV needs to stop their Nazi-like smear of the United States and Abraham Lincoln.

Walt

22 posted on 12/27/2002 7:59:44 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: WhiskeyPapa; AppyPappy
Slave ownership devolved on 1/3 of white southerners and 1/2 in MS, LA and SC. There were more slave owners in the south than there were real property owners in the north.

Walt

You still haven't told me where you got these numbers you are parroting on the other thread like I asked. You do have a source to parrot, don't you?

23 posted on 12/27/2002 8:04:31 AM PST by putupon
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Watch it, comparing Douglass to Lincoln will put old Abe in a far distant second place.

As to the statue, at this time and in this atmosphere, it is just another attempt to remind people of their differences. Not only does the left want to remove all signs of the Confederacy, it believes it is time to restart reconstruction. Move in a few more little reminders and try to shore up the Black voting bloc against any shift away from the democrat's emotional foundation.

(With a nod to Grand Kleagle Byrd)

24 posted on 12/27/2002 8:11:17 AM PST by norton
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To: yankeedame
Well that's going to be a statue just itching for graffitti and vandalism.
25 posted on 12/27/2002 8:11:31 AM PST by Centurion2000
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To: putupon
You still haven't told me where you got these numbers you are parroting on the other thread like I asked. You do have a source to parrot, don't you?

From Jim Epperson's website:

J.E.B. DeBow was the publisher/editor of DeBow's Review, a leading antebellum monthly magazine, published in New Orleans. DeBow was a committed pro-slavery Southerner who felt that the North was oppressing the South. He also, contrary to the beliefs of most white Southerners, passionately wanted the South to move away from agriculture and develop an industrial base. He was fascinated by numbers and had served as director of the 1850 United States census and had argued that the collection and distribution of statistics was an important task which required a professional staff, serving not just every ten years but all the time.

DeBow was concerned about the claims of people like Helper that the average Southerner, being a non-slaveholder, had no stake in the success of the Confederacy. It is an interesting turn around from those late twentieth century Confederate supporters who argue that the Peculiar Institution had nothing to do with the Civil War.

DeBow disagreed with that philosophy and the January 1861 issue of the Review carried an article by him refuting the claims that the average Southerner did not have a stake in the survival and expansion of slavery. Reprinted below is his analysis of the 1850 census and what it showed about the actual percentages of Southerners who were part of slave holding families, not just the more limited numbers counting only the actual (usually the senior male member) owner.

[The] non-slaveholding class ... were even more deeply interested than any other in the maintenance of our institutions, and in the success of the movement now inaugurated for the entire social, industrial, and political independence of the South. …

When in charge of the national census office, several years since, I found that it had been stated by an abolition senator from his seat, that the number of slaveholders at the South did not exceed 150,000. Convinced that, it was a gross misrepresentation of facts, I caused a careful examination of the returns to be made, which fixed the actual number at 347,255, and communicated the information, by note, to Senator Cass, who read it in the Senate. I first called attention to the fact that the number embraced slaveholding families, and that to arrive at the actual number of slaveholders, it would be necessary to multiply by the proportion of persons which the census showed to a family. When this was done, the number was swelled to about two millions.

Since these results were made public, I have had reason to think that the separation of the schedules of the slave and the free was calculated to lead to omissions of the single properties, and that on this account, it would be safe to put the number of families at 375,000, and the number of actual slaveholders at about two millions and a quarter.

Assuming the published returns, however, to be correct, it will appear that one half of the population of South Carolina, Mississippi, and Louisiana, excluding the cities, are slaveholders, and that one third of the population of the entire South are similarly circumstanced. The average number of slaves is nine to each slaveholding family, and one half of the whole number of such holders are in possession of less than five slaves. It will thus appear that the slaveholders of the South, so far from constituting, numerically, an insignificant portion of its people, as has been malignantly alleged, make up an aggregate greater in relative proportion than the holders of any other species of property whatever, in any part of the world; and that of no other property can it be said, with equal truthfulness, that it is an interest of the whole community. While every other family in the States I have specially referred to are slaveholders, but one family in every three and a half families in Maine, New-Hampshire, Massachusetts, and Connecticut, are holders of agricultural land; and in European states the proportion is almost indefinitely less. The proportion which the slaveholders of the South bear to the entire population is greater than that of the owners of land or houses, agricultural stock, State, bank, or other corporation securities anywhere else. No political economist will deny this. Nor is that all. Even in the States which are among the largest slaveholding, South Carolina, Georgia, and Tennessee, the land proprietors outnumber nearly two to one, in relative proportion, the owners of the same property in Maine, Massachusetts, and Connecticut; and if the average number of slaves held by each family throughout the South be but nine, and if one half of the whole number of slaveholders own under five slaves, it will be seen how preposterous is the allegation of our enemies, that the slaveholding class is an organized wealthy aristocracy. The poor men of the South are the holders of one to five slaves, and it would be equally consistent with truth and justice to say that they represent, in reality, its slaveholding interest."

Walt

26 posted on 12/27/2002 8:26:00 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: norton
As to the statue, at this time and in this atmosphere, it is just another attempt to remind people of their differences. Not only does the left want to remove all signs of the Confederacy, it believes it is time to restart reconstruction. Move in a few more little reminders and try to shore up the Black voting bloc against any shift away from the democrat's emotional foundation.

Perhaps.

Walt

27 posted on 12/27/2002 8:27:34 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: yankeedame
does anyone know where you can make a donation to the building of the statue?
28 posted on 12/27/2002 8:30:17 AM PST by ContentiousObjector
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To: WhiskeyPapa
I first called attention to the fact that the number embraced slaveholding families, and that to arrive at the actual number of slaveholders, it would be necessary to multiply by the proportion of persons which the census showed to a family. When this was done, the number was swelled to about two millions.

Interesting. This could be the first documented example a politician adjusting the variables of an equation to achieve the desired results. Fuzzy math, to borrow a term from our modern day internet inventor.

29 posted on 12/27/2002 8:33:03 AM PST by putupon
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To: yankeedame
Someone will take it down.
30 posted on 12/27/2002 8:34:35 AM PST by gitmo
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To: wideawake
Five days before the Civil War ended in April 1865, the president and his youngest child, Tad, traveled to still-smoldering Richmond soon after Southern forces abandoned the city in flames.

But, he actually went there.

The statue commemorates an historic event no different than the Marines at Iwo Jima raising the flag statue, or any other historical statue.

Lincoln was a US President, he and his son did go to Richmond.

Men fought bravely at Richmond, but they lost it. The victors get to raise the statues...

I don't see the problem.

31 posted on 12/27/2002 8:35:17 AM PST by Cogadh na Sith
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To: WhiskeyPapa
of no other property can it be said, with equal truthfulness, that it is an interest of the whole community.

It was not, perhaps, in the best interest of the slaves!

32 posted on 12/27/2002 8:36:06 AM PST by Restorer
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To: putupon
Interesting. This could be the first documented example a politician adjusting the variables of an equation to achieve the desired results.

Debow was not a politician, but thanks for the Soviet style disinformation. That's a typcial neo-reb technique.

Walt

33 posted on 12/27/2002 8:39:10 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: AppyPappy
Lincoln was a US President, the south did lose Richmond, Lincoln and his son did go to Richmond.

The statue commemorates that. The victors get to erect the statues.

Thus it is, thus it has always been, and will always be; everywhere. Amen.

34 posted on 12/27/2002 8:40:17 AM PST by Cogadh na Sith
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To: chookter
The victors get to raise the statues

This insistence on being "victors" and demanding the rights of "victors" carries with it the idea that those who lost the war and their descendants are not fellow citizens but a conquered and subject people.

Keep reinforcing that stupid, destructive idea.

35 posted on 12/27/2002 8:40:30 AM PST by wideawake
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To: chookter
I don't see the problem.

That is the problem. People from all over the country coming to the town I live in, just to stir up $h!+, then go back home and leave the mess. I guess that's better than them staying though.

36 posted on 12/27/2002 8:40:34 AM PST by putupon
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To: yankeedame
If the North is so confident in their victory, and so hallowed in their righteoussness; why the need to constantly remind themselves of it?
37 posted on 12/27/2002 8:42:58 AM PST by laotzu
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To: All
Oh this is just PERFECT! And these hillbillys wonder why they're considered racist when they fly the confederate flag?

And I'll bet the people bitching about this statue would be the FIRST to bitch about someone protesting a Christain display on the county courthouse lawn.

Ugh.....
38 posted on 12/27/2002 8:43:27 AM PST by Johnny Shear
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To: chookter
But, he actually went there.

And Bismarck actually marched into Paris - but curiously, there are no statues erected to him there.

Boy, wouldn't it be a helpful and smart idea for a group of civic-minded Germans to erect a statue to the Iron Chancellor on the Champs-Elysee to commemorate victory in the Franco-Prussian War?

After all, it was 130 years ago, and the French and Germans are both partners now in the EU.

39 posted on 12/27/2002 8:44:19 AM PST by wideawake
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To: wideawake
carries with it the idea that those who lost the war and their descendants are not fellow citizens but a conquered and subject people.

Only so long as you try to argue against the historical reality and delegitimize the capitulation that your ancestors accepted with grace and dignity.

This is not outcome-based history to improve your self-esteem.

Old Town Albuquerque still has on display the Texas cannons captured at the Battle of Glorietta Pass.

40 posted on 12/27/2002 8:48:59 AM PST by Cogadh na Sith
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To: putupon
That is the problem. People from all over the country coming to the town I live in, just to stir up $h!+, then go back home and leave the mess.

I'm sorry it was to Richmond that Lincoln came, but he did....

41 posted on 12/27/2002 8:50:18 AM PST by Cogadh na Sith
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To: WhiskeyPapa
You'd think Abraham Lincoln would get more support on a conservative website like FR, wouldn't you?

Well, that's the thing, WP.

I'm a conservative, and I support allowing black people to vote and serve on juries.

I also oppose tariffs and protectionism of any kind.

Additionally, I believe aggressive public works projects - I'm sorry, "internal improvements" - are a huge drain on taxpayers and are essentially a tactic to expand the size and scope of government intrusion in daily life.

I also believe that the best way to settle disputes among Americans is through negotiation and the ballot box, not Waco-style federal bulldozing.

So it really doesn't surprise me, as a conservative, that Lincoln is not worshipped as a secular god here on FR.

42 posted on 12/27/2002 8:51:03 AM PST by wideawake
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To: Johnny Shear
"And these hillbillys..."

Why would anyone not listen to a reasoned, intellect that begins like this? The appeal to logic is unavoidable.

43 posted on 12/27/2002 8:51:49 AM PST by laotzu
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To: laotzu
why the need to constantly remind themselves of it?

In order to furthur the leftists agenda of divide and conquer by causing issues that should have been laid to rest years ago and bear no relevance in today's world to continue to divide. This a great one for them, too. Look at all the Lincolnites who are conservative and would normally be for smaller government, being duped into jumping on the leftist, big government, force-it-down-their-throats, band wagon.

44 posted on 12/27/2002 8:51:52 AM PST by putupon
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To: wideawake
Doesn't work: they are still different nationalities.

It is your choice to join the rest of the nation with grace and dignity as your forebearers did, or harbor some weird successionist fervor instead.

45 posted on 12/27/2002 8:53:48 AM PST by Cogadh na Sith
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To: putupon
"to furthur the leftists agenda of divide and conquer...the Lincolnites who are conservative and would normally be for smaller government, being duped into jumping on the leftist..band wagon"

Beautifully said. My compliments.

46 posted on 12/27/2002 8:55:46 AM PST by laotzu
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To: putupon
Interesting. This could be the first documented example a politician adjusting the variables of an equation to achieve the desired results. Fuzzy math, to borrow a term from our modern day internet inventor.

The thing to do is show DeBow's data to be wrong. Can you do that, or is carping about it your limit?

Walt

47 posted on 12/27/2002 8:56:33 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: chookter
Only so long as you try to argue against the historical reality and delegitimize the capitulation that your ancestors accepted with grace and dignity.

No member of my family ever lived south of the Mason-Dixon line until my cousins moved to Baltimore in 1979. I have two ancestors who were directly involved in the Civil War and they both fought for the Union - which is why I'm a member of the Sons of Union Veterans.

This is not outcome-based history to improve your self-esteem.

My self-esteem is intact. I don't need to build a chest-beating statue in Richmond to remind myself that my great-great-grandfather marched with Grant.

Old Town Albuquerque still has on display the Texas cannons captured at the Battle of Glorietta Pass.

Great. Richmond has the Confederate White House on display that was captured during the Virginia Campaign. Unless the statue of Lincoln in question was present during the military action I don't see any good reason to display it.

48 posted on 12/27/2002 8:58:56 AM PST by wideawake
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To: yankeedame
PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN PRESIDENT LINCOLN
49 posted on 12/27/2002 8:59:57 AM PST by Cinnamon Girl
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To: yankeedame
I'm southern and who cares, get over it. It happened 140 years ago, its time to 'let it go'.
50 posted on 12/27/2002 9:01:05 AM PST by Intimidator
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