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Never mind what history books say: the South won (GREELEY ALERT)
Chicago Sun-Times ^ | December 27, 2002 | ANDREW GREELEY

Posted on 12/27/2002 10:10:58 AM PST by Chi-townChief

I don't see why there's so much trouble about poor Trent Lott. After all, the South won the Civil War--oops, the War Between the States--and they're entitled to enjoy their victory. It's their right to fly the Stars and Bars over the Georgia capital, to celebrate the ''Confederate Heritage,'' to speak at the racist, anti-Catholic Bob Jones University, to lecture to white supremacy groups, to venerate the Dixiecrat Party and its founder Strom Thurmond for his wisdom, to proclaim always their mantra of ''states' rights,'' to trim black voters off the polling lists.

Admittedly, racial segregation in the South isn't what it used to be. Blacks can ride anywhere on a bus that they want to, their kids can go to integrated schools, they can vote in elections, they can work at jobs formerly off-limits to them. They're still poor for the most part and not all that well-educated (in Mississippi no one is), but that's not the fault of white Southerners.

Does someone say that the Stars and Bars is the flag of a racist revolution to keep black people in slavery? Does someone argue that the ''Confederate Heritage'' is a heritage of racial oppression, rape and murder? The answer is simple: ''Hey, boys in blue, we whupped y'all fair and square. Y'all ain't nothing but bad losers.''

My ''damn Yankee'' prejudice is to say that ole Marse Abe made a mistake. He should have let the rebel states go. We didn't need them, and we'd be better off without them.

The South didn't win the war, you say? Who's running the country now? Texans (or pseudo-Texans) like Bush and Cheney and DeLay, and crackers like Trent Lott, and until recently carpetbaggers like Newt Gingrich. When was the last time a Yankee was elected president? In 1960, the only Northerner since Roosevelt. Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon don't count; Orange County is Confederate country.

Nixon was the one who had the brilliant idea of incorporating Strom's Dixiecrat Party into the GOP in his notorious ''Southern strategy.'' Most of the newspaper accounts of the turn of the Solid South from Democratic to Republican don't mention that the change was inspired by anger in the South at the Democratic support for civil rights and racial integration. The Democrats won the campaign but lost the war. Gettysburg was not the decisive battle of the war between the states. The 1968 and 1972 campaigns were. The ''reform'' wing of the Democratic Party threw out the unions and the Catholics and gave away the game to the Dixiecrat wing of the Republican Party. They've never figured out how to win against the descendants of Strom and Tricky Dicky.

I'm not saying that all Southerners are racist (there are a lot of racists in Yankee land too--most of them Republicans). Nor do I contend that all Republicans are racists. However, the current Republican near-majority has its origins in racism. Many of the present causes of Southern Republicans--the Stars and Bars, the Confederate Heritage, Bob Jones University--are clearly causes of the antebellum South.

I'm willing to accept the song ''Dixie,'' both because ole Marse Abe ordered it played for the big victory march in Washington when the war was over and because it was written by Bing Crosby, a notorious Yankee who never set foot in Dixie (actually by New Yorker Dan Emmet, whom Crosby portrayed in film).

However, if the Republicans really want to break free of the Old South and become once again the party of ole Marse Abe (which they clearly don't), then they have to do more than merely drop redneck bigots like Trent Lott. They must loudly disown Bob Jones University and the battle flag over the Georgia capital and the Confederate heritage, and Jeb Bush's elimination of black voters from Florida registration rolls.

I concede that the Dimmycrats (as Mr. Dooley called them) are not without faults of their own--most notably the anti-Catholicism that affects some of the leadership level, their enslavement to the teachers unions and their stand on some life issues. Yet, whatever their failings, they're not storming the Little Round Top at Gettysburg with the Stars and Bars waving and loud rebel yells.

History says that Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain and the 20th Maine triumphed in that skirmish. A look at the Beltway today makes me wonder if they really did.


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Greeley seems to lie an awful lot for a priest. I wonder when his next confession is.
1 posted on 12/27/2002 10:10:58 AM PST by Chi-townChief
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To: Chi-townChief
I guess Greeley wasn't taught about The Great Compromise either.
2 posted on 12/27/2002 10:14:18 AM PST by HIDEK6
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To: Chi-townChief
When was the last time a Yankee was elected president? In 1960, the only Northerner since Roosevelt. Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon don't count; Orange County is Confederate country.

Reagan's an Illinoisan.

3 posted on 12/27/2002 10:14:58 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: Chi-townChief
I'm not saying that all Southerners are racist (there are a lot of racists in Yankee land too--most of them Republicans).

Bull. More Dems are racist.

4 posted on 12/27/2002 10:17:22 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: #3Fan
If the South had really won we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years...
Oops did I pull a Trent Lott...
5 posted on 12/27/2002 10:17:28 AM PST by ConservativeMan55
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To: Chi-townChief
this guy is a few thousand brain cells short of below average intelligence.

And Reagan was born in a little town called Tampico, IL; carring those wholesome midwestern values with him through his whole career.
6 posted on 12/27/2002 10:21:22 AM PST by BaBaStooey
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To: Chi-townChief
>>Greeley seems to lie an awful lot for a priest.<<


I was raised Catholic and hate to say this but the Catholic Church has just about hit rock bottom because of Marxist priest like this. I would think he would be thanking Southern Republicans for being so pro-life. Everything is turned upside down.
7 posted on 12/27/2002 10:26:16 AM PST by Missouri
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To: Chi-townChief
They must loudly disown Bob Jones University and the battle flag over the Georgia capital and the Confederate heritage

Who gives a rat's @ss about Bob Jones U? How many people could even name which state it is in? Is this trivia all their "movement" has left?

As for that nonsense about removing black voters from the rolls they've never produced any sort of evidence. Of course nobody needs evidence nowadays; you just repeat your lies in a louder voice and say that anyone who disagrees must be a racist.

8 posted on 12/27/2002 10:32:24 AM PST by alpowolf
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To: Chi-townChief
(there are a lot of racists in Yankee land too--most of them Republicans).

Yeah, just look at Boston.

9 posted on 12/27/2002 10:34:01 AM PST by Mr. Bird
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To: ConservativeMan55
If the South had really won we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years...

My liberal brother in law and I had a discussion about this the other night. There's no way to play history through in our little minds considering outcome of the Civil War to be different, but it's an interesting thing to contemplate. Would we have had a relationship like the British and the Americans do today, or would we have had a relationship like the countries of Yugoslavia. A big point of contention would've been the continued escaping of black slaves into the United States. The Confederacy would've been up in arms for decades over that. Also there would've been security. The Confederacy would've been industrially weaker than the United States and that would've built up coveteness not unlike we're seeing today with the extreme jealousy that France, Germany, and now Canada shows toward us which probably would've led to conflict and maybe even an alliance between the Axis and the Confederacy during the WW2 if history would still have taken that path. Who knows, the eradication of the evil of slavery alone made it a good thing that the Union won.

Oops did I pull a Trent Lott...

Kinda. What's your opinion on slavery?

10 posted on 12/27/2002 10:35:16 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: Chi-townChief
Tripe like this reveals he wears the Liberal's hair shirt first and foremost.
11 posted on 12/27/2002 10:38:06 AM PST by junta
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To: #3Fan
>>More Dems are racist.<<


I work in a large Union shop and know alot of Dems. Many of them throw racial slurs around and brag about how they moved out of intergrated neighborhoods (or neighborhoods in transition) to all white areas. They vote dem. because they just hate rich people/Bush. I'd love to see Al Sharpton get the dem. nomination just to see their reaction.


12 posted on 12/27/2002 10:39:26 AM PST by Missouri
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To: Chi-townChief
Greeley is full of the same biases and hatred as many other liberals. He stereotypes Southerners, and makes false assumptions that we are all racists. He is an idiot. He also needs to re-read his history. Oh, he got his "education" from liberals!! That about sums it up.
13 posted on 12/27/2002 10:39:51 AM PST by TommyDale
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To: Missouri
I work in a large Union shop and know alot of Dems. Many of them throw racial slurs around and brag about how they moved out of intergrated neighborhoods (or neighborhoods in transition) to all white areas. They vote dem. because they just hate rich people/Bush. I'd love to see Al Sharpton get the dem. nomination just to see their reaction.

That's my perspective too. I used to work in a union shop. The unions here are racist and pro-Dem.

14 posted on 12/27/2002 10:45:01 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: #3Fan
..and someone should ask this guys if realizes that racism isn't a one way street. People from other races hate white people just as much if not more, based only on skin color.
15 posted on 12/27/2002 10:46:42 AM PST by mrMJ
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To: #3Fan
Had the Confederacy won, there would have been two weak nations incapable of challenging European imperialism in the Western Hemisphere. Both nations would have been reduced to backwaters while the fate of the globe was in the hands of the Europeans.

Without America in the First World War (which likely would have happened anyway), the stalemate would have dragged on in France. England more likely than not would have undergone the Socialist revolution - because the Marxist theories were designed around the English economy.

How long would it have been till an oppressed mass of blacks in the Confederacy risen up in a bloody socialist revolt under those circumstances?

Be happy the Confederacy lost - the 20th century would have been even bloodier, and the whole globe would likely be socialist now.

16 posted on 12/27/2002 10:47:47 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: mrMJ
..and someone should ask this guys if realizes that racism isn't a one way street. People from other races hate white people just as much if not more, based only on skin color.

True. Randy Moss, Sharpton, Jackson, Farrakan, etc., are the biggest racists in America. And none of them have ever voted Republican I'm sure. Let's compare Randy Moss' press with Rocker's.

17 posted on 12/27/2002 10:54:36 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: #3Fan
My opinion on slavery was at the time every type of race was enslaved. Blacks enslaved Blacks...Whites enslaved Blacks...Indians enslaved other Indians..I'm not defending it by any means..but you can't point directly at the White Guy and blame him for it.
Everybody did it back then which makes it hard to distribute blame.
18 posted on 12/27/2002 10:55:15 AM PST by ConservativeMan55
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To: #3Fan
>>The unions here are racist<<


I would say that individuals in or running the Unions are racist.
Its to bad Illinois can't secede itself from Cook County. Maybe Chicago can join Canada.
19 posted on 12/27/2002 10:57:32 AM PST by Missouri
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Be happy the Confederacy lost - the 20th century would have been even bloodier, and the whole globe would likely be socialist now.

Probably true. These supposedly pro-state's rights states sure had no problem supporting the likes of Wilson and FDR.

20 posted on 12/27/2002 10:57:35 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: Chi-townChief; GOPcapitalist; stainlessbanner; 4ConservativeJustices; stand watie; sheltonmac; ...
Anti-Southern attack ad ping
21 posted on 12/27/2002 10:59:30 AM PST by billbears
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To: #3Fan
I don't think the Confederacy would have aligned with the Axis--but the US would have aligned with Germany long before World War I broke out.
22 posted on 12/27/2002 10:59:41 AM PST by Poohbah
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To: ConservativeMan55
My opinion on slavery was at the time every type of race was enslaved. Blacks enslaved Blacks...Whites enslaved Blacks...Indians enslaved other Indians..I'm not defending it by any means..but you can't point directly at the White Guy and blame him for it. Everybody did it back then which makes it hard to distribute blame.

How many blacks owned white slaves? The Republican Party was formed to oppose slavery in the new territories. The Southern states seceded to preserve slavery as their Declarations of Secession say. The Civil War was a Republican vs. Democrat war. The good guys won. Slavery was ended, the union was preserved.

23 posted on 12/27/2002 11:01:25 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: ConservativeMan55
Don't forget, white people did it to white people during that era, too. I bet kids in school don't even learn about 'indentured servents' anymore. (if you don't know, just ask, I'll tell you without giving you too much hell, hahah) That was just as much a form of slavery as any other. Hell, we still do it today in our prison system, i.e. Hard Labor. (Not that they don't deserve it, that's not the point i am trying to make either though. That topic can get its own thread.) The point is, that it still occurs in the US. And we are joking ourselves to think it doesn't happen else where in the world right now.
24 posted on 12/27/2002 11:05:49 AM PST by mrMJ
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To: Missouri
I would say that individuals in or running the Unions are racist. Its to bad Illinois can't secede itself from Cook County. Maybe Chicago can join Canada

I think if we just clean up the voting in Chicago, the prospects for this state would improve dramatically. In election 2000 the vote in Illinois was going 100% for Gore for a while. That's impossible without fraud. Chicago precincts are always the first to report. I guess here they don't wait until election day to fraudulate the ballots, the ballots are prestamped. Chicago leads the nation in Democratic voter fraud technology.

25 posted on 12/27/2002 11:06:25 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: #3Fan
A big point of contention would've been the continued escaping of black slaves into the United States.

You're right that would have been an issue. Howver, I don't think that slavery would have lasted another 15 years in the south. After all, 4 of the 13 northern states plus the chunk of land that later became West Virginia were slaveholding areas, so the idea that the Civil War was only about slavery is absurd, though slavery was certainly one of the causes. Slavery had not ended that long ago in many of the other northern states (about 1830 for New York) and the abolition movement was growing in the south, albeit more slowly than in the north. Plus, we can't forget that the Emancipation Proclamation freed only the slaves in areas still in rebellion -- slaves in the north and the conquered southern lands weren't freed until almost a year after the war was over.

26 posted on 12/27/2002 11:07:51 AM PST by DallasMike
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To: Poohbah
I don't think the Confederacy would have aligned with the Axis...

Look at what jealousy does. France aligns itself with the worst of the earth out of jealousy over America. They wouldn't let us use their airspace to retaliate against Liubya, and now they're doing all they can to save Hussein.

...--but the US would have aligned with Germany long before World War I broke out.

Why?

27 posted on 12/27/2002 11:09:19 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: Chi-townChief
It's their right to fly the Stars and Bars over the Georgia capital

It is if they can get the voters to go along.

to celebrate the ''Confederate Heritage,'' to speak at the racist, anti-Catholic Bob Jones University, to lecture to white supremacy groups, to venerate the Dixiecrat Party and its founder Strom Thurmond for his wisdom, to proclaim always their mantra of ''states' rights,''

Well, yes, these are rights. Freedom of speech.

to trim black voters off the polling lists.

Not only not a right, but actually illegal and unconstitutional. Which is why it isn't done.

28 posted on 12/27/2002 11:10:35 AM PST by Restorer
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To: mrMJ
Don't forget, white people did it to white people during that era, too. I bet kids in school don't even learn about 'indentured servents' anymore. (if you don't know, just ask, I'll tell you without giving you too much hell, hahah) That was just as much a form of slavery as any other. Hell, we still do it today in our prison system, i.e. Hard Labor.

So all the black slaves had committed a crime? An indentured servant became an indentured servant because of his actions if what you'resaying is true. A black person became a slave because of his race. Big difference if what you're saying is true.

29 posted on 12/27/2002 11:12:43 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: mrMJ
Don't forget, white people did it to white people during that era, too.

Only if you telescope history. Indentured servitude had not been around for at least 60 years when the War broke out.

30 posted on 12/27/2002 11:16:45 AM PST by Restorer
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To: DallasMike
You're right that would have been an issue. Howver, I don't think that slavery would have lasted another 15 years in the south.

600,000 dead for nothing, huh?

After all, 4 of the 13 northern states plus the chunk of land that later became West Virginia were slaveholding areas, so the idea that the Civil War was only about slavery is absurd, though slavery was certainly one of the causes.

I never said the sole reason was slavery. The reason for secession was slavery as the Declarations of Secession say. The reason the North fought so hard to win was for preservation of the union. The reason for the attack on Fort Sumter....Foolish pride?

Slavery had not ended that long ago in many of the other northern states (about 1830 for New York) and the abolition movement was growing in the south, albeit more slowly than in the north.

Um...yeah right. Have you ever read the Declarations of Secession?

Plus, we can't forget that the Emancipation Proclamation freed only the slaves in areas still in rebellion -- slaves in the north and the conquered southern lands weren't freed until almost a year after the war was over.

A whole year, wow.

31 posted on 12/27/2002 11:18:01 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: #3Fan
>>I think if we just clean up the voting in Chicago, the prospects for this state would improve dramatically.<<


Your right. Look what happened in St. Louis in 2002. The Sec. of State here in Mo. cleaned up the voting process after the 2000 mess in St. Louis and the result was a victory for Jim Talent.
Now if you could get Father Greely to focus on the problems of Chicago today and focus less on a war 140 years ago, progress may be made.
32 posted on 12/27/2002 11:19:48 AM PST by Missouri
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To: mrMJ
That was just as much a form of slavery as any other.

Indentures were for a limited period, often seven years. They were frequently, although not always, voluntary. In the involuntary cases, servitude was usually the punishment for a crime.

They were also not around by the time of TWBTS.

33 posted on 12/27/2002 11:20:48 AM PST by Restorer
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To: Poohbah; #3Fan
I have to agree with Poohbah on this one. The British wanted the Confederate cotton and provided material aid to the cause. The Germans in the CS were, by and large, disloyal to the south and many would probably have left had the south prevailed.

Post war, the Brits probably would have looked forward to putting the US in a vise between Canada and the CSA. The US certainly would not have had the strength to pull off the Spanish American war (won with the assistance of the troops from Tennessee).

34 posted on 12/27/2002 11:23:49 AM PST by PAR35
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To: Missouri
Your right. Look what happened in St. Louis in 2002. The Sec. of State here in Mo. cleaned up the voting process after the 2000 mess in St. Louis and the result was a victory for Jim Talent.

I think she still got a few percentage points from fraud.

Now if you could get Father Greely to focus on the problems of Chicago today and focus less on a war 140 years ago, progress may be made.

True. There's a few here on FR that could use that advice too.

35 posted on 12/27/2002 11:25:01 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: Chi-townChief
"It's their right to fly the Stars and Bars over the Georgia capital, to celebrate the ''Confederate Heritage,'' to speak at the racist, anti-Catholic Bob Jones University, to lecture to white supremacy groups, to venerate the Dixiecrat Party and its founder Strom Thurmond for his wisdom, to proclaim always their mantra of ''states' rights,"

HELLO???????? It's called free speech moron and is an AMERICAN right, not a confederate one!

36 posted on 12/27/2002 11:28:45 AM PST by sweetliberty
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To: Chi-townChief
talk about a bigot! some of the sterotypes and statements this clown greeley makes puts him right at the top of the list.
37 posted on 12/27/2002 11:31:36 AM PST by arly
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To: Missouri
"I'd love to see Al Sharpton get the dem. nomination just to see their reaction."

Never happen. We should realize by now that to the Rats, blacks are for service, not leadership. Hmmm....now why does that sound familiar?

38 posted on 12/27/2002 11:33:24 AM PST by sweetliberty
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To: PAR35
I have to agree with Poohbah on this one. The British wanted the Confederate cotton and provided material aid to the cause. The Germans in the CS were, by and large, disloyal to the south and many would probably have left had the south prevailed.

Brain drain.

Post war, the Brits probably would have looked forward to putting the US in a vise between Canada and the CSA.

Canada? The words "Canada" and "vice" do not go well together. LOL The U.S. was the industrial powerhouse of the North American continent and would've been even stronger had German brain drain taken place. I just can't see Canada and the agricultural CSA vicing anything. The poreservation of slavery with a CSA win would've kept the CSA down even longer in the industrial race. Why build gidgets and gadgets when you can just send 4 million people out in a field to do your work for you and make youe rich?

The US certainly would not have had the strength to pull off the Spanish American war (won with the assistance of the troops from Tennessee).

That would've been the CSA's worry wouldn't have it? Why worry about Cuba when there is a buffer nation?

39 posted on 12/27/2002 11:36:24 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: #3Fan
(i)So all the black slaves had committed a crime? An indentured servant became an indentured servant because of his actions if what you'resaying is true. A black person became a slave because of his race. Big difference if what you're saying is true.(/i)


I see what you saying... and no, the balcks didn't commit a crime. Your implicating too much-- the comment wasn't supposed to be read into that much. What I am saying is that our values and moral throughout that time began to transform or evolve. Instead of enslaving people by skin color, there are many different ways people can be enslaved, i.e. criminal, political wrongdoing (USSR), repayment of debt. For what ever reason (economic, superiority) it maybe, people accepted it back then, but that doesn't make it right.

But it is just plain old ridiculous for a democratic country to still be giving concessions to a minority of the people because they need reparations for something that happened years ago. Its true, in the past white people have enslaved blacks, but don't forget -- we weren't the only ones who did it(despite the reasons). I guess what irks me, is the fact that people want to focus so much on what happened in the past, but forget to take a look at thioer current situation. Human rights violations occur all the time, in this day-- but no is ready to fight a war over it. People are ready to show compassion to opression by passing laws about hate crimes domestically, but no one is willing to fight over it (Chinese occupation of Tibet).

I don't know-- I forgot what I am even writing about anymore...
40 posted on 12/27/2002 11:36:44 AM PST by mrMJ
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To: #3Fan
Forgot to preview.
41 posted on 12/27/2002 11:38:28 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Be happy the Confederacy lost - the 20th century would have been even bloodier, and the whole globe would likely be socialist now.

Are you trying to tell me that the entire world is not socialist now? If you had said Communist you might have had a point. But as I see it there are no truly Capitalist countries left.

42 posted on 12/27/2002 11:38:49 AM PST by Pontiac
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To: Restorer
"to trim black voters off the polling lists"

"Not only not a right, but actually illegal and unconstitutional. Which is why it isn't done."

First you have have to translate "trimming black voters off the polling lists" from liberalspeak.

Translation: attempting to clean up rampant voter fraud that is prevalent in heavily black Rat precincts.

43 posted on 12/27/2002 11:41:13 AM PST by sweetliberty
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To: #3Fan
>>Now if you could get Father Greely to focus on the problems of Chicago today<<


I should have added problems of the Catholic Church, too.
(I mis-spelled Greeley the first time.)
44 posted on 12/27/2002 11:43:09 AM PST by Missouri
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To: mrMJ
I see what you saying... and no, the balcks didn't commit a crime. Your implicating too much-- the comment wasn't supposed to be read into that much. What I am saying is that our values and moral throughout that time began to transform or evolve.

True, but the rich plantation owner secessionists were not willing to evolve and sacrificed our country and the South's men to continue their filthy lucre. It was more greed than lack of evolution.

Instead of enslaving people by skin color, there are many different ways people can be enslaved, i.e. criminal, political wrongdoing (USSR), repayment of debt. For what ever reason (economic, superiority) it maybe, people accepted it back then, but that doesn't make it right.

Those who were getting rich off it were certaiinly more accepting of it than others.

But it is just plain old ridiculous for a democratic country to still be giving concessions to a minority of the people because they need reparations for something that happened years ago.

I agree.

Its true, in the past white people have enslaved blacks, but don't forget -- we weren't the only ones who did it(despite the reasons). I guess what irks me, is the fact that people want to focus so much on what happened in the past, but forget to take a look at thioer current situation. Human rights violations occur all the time, in this day-- but no is ready to fight a war over it. People are ready to show compassion to opression by passing laws about hate crimes domestically, but no one is willing to fight over it (Chinese occupation of Tibet).

Freedom is for those that are willing to fight for it. If a people aren't willing to fight for it, maybe they don't deserve it. Americans have been willing to fight for freedom and fairness.

45 posted on 12/27/2002 11:46:41 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: billbears
Anti-Southern attack ad ping

Calling all neo-reb ranters...

46 posted on 12/27/2002 11:48:02 AM PST by mac_truck
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To: sweetliberty
>>Never happen<<


I know.
Have you every read Animal Farm, a story about the Stalinist wing of the Democratic party ? I wonder which animal would represent Sharpton ? Or Hillary ? Or Father Greeley ?
47 posted on 12/27/2002 11:48:51 AM PST by Missouri
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To: Mr. Bird
How many blacks have been lynched in Boston? Actually, Boston is a relatively small place. Let's speak of New England. How many blacks have been lynched in New England? How many whites have been lynched in New England?
48 posted on 12/27/2002 11:50:05 AM PST by Prolix
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To: Missouri
I should have added problems of the Catholic Church, too.

And while we're getting Catholics to admit their pedophilia, let's also get the liberal federal and state workers to admit their pedophilia. For instance I hear an awful lot of stories of these Teachers Union people having the ame kind of troubles as the Catholic priests. I wonder what the percentages are. The liberal media doesn't want to go there of course.

49 posted on 12/27/2002 11:53:12 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: #3Fan
I just think the Catholic Church has gotting too liberal on many issues.
50 posted on 12/27/2002 11:56:12 AM PST by Missouri
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