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Hog wild: Parks, native plants, animals victims of increasing pig population
The San Jose Mercury News ^ | Tue, Dec. 17, 2002 | Priyanka Sharma-Sindhar Special to the Mercury News

Posted on 12/28/2002 1:51:40 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach

Edited on 04/13/2004 3:30:06 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

It's early morning at Skyline Ridge Open Space Preserve, just south of Palo Alto, and park ranger Susannah Anderson-Minshall sets out for a routine inspection in her truck. She soon notices something that makes her slam on the brakes.

A creek that was filled with fresh water until yesterday now looks like a muddy bog. The ground all around is dug up, and ferns and plants lie trampled. She doesn't need to look at the huge, round, footprints in the mud to guess where the blame lies. The culprits are wild pigs, non-native, sharp-tusked, black bristly marauders who have been causing havoc across Northern California's landscape with increasing frequency.


(Excerpt) Read more at bayarea.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: california; sendemfloridaway; wildhogs
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 12/28/2002 1:51:40 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Carry_Okie; SierraWasp; Grampa Dave
New sport here, hunting wild hogs!

I didn't know this problem existed!
2 posted on 12/28/2002 1:53:02 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Uh, hunters and practical use of the 2nd Amendment anyone? HELLO???
3 posted on 12/28/2002 1:56:55 PM PST by friendly
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
**The other concern biologists have is that the pigs can eat large numbers of native species. Being omnivores, they can eat anything that moves, so long as it is small enough for them to kill. The list is long and covers amphibians, reptiles, small mammals -- frogs, lizards, snakes, mice and even small fawns.**

This would seem to be a big problem.
4 posted on 12/28/2002 2:02:27 PM PST by Salvation
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Hog hunt!
5 posted on 12/28/2002 2:04:28 PM PST by demlosers
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Check out this report:

Remains of five victims found at B.C. property of alleged killer

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

PORT COQUITLAM, B.C. -- Police found remains of five of the 15 women Robert Pickton is accused of killing in their search of the pig farm he owns with his siblings, a defense lawyer said.

Reading from an affidavit that complains the prosecution has given the defense insufficient information, lawyer Marilyn Sandford on Monday provided some of the first public details of the case against Pickton, 53, who faces 15 first-degree murder charges.

A painstaking search of two properties - the pig farm on Dominion Avenue and a nearby plot where Pickton and his brother ran a party house known as Piggy's Palace - has yielded remains and DNA evidence in what police call the biggest serial killer investigation in Canadian history.

Canadian Serial Killer Fed Victims to His Hogs !

6 posted on 12/28/2002 2:09:46 PM PST by ex-Texan
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
The answer to the problem is obvious but the tree huggers will never go for it until their habitat is TOTALLY destroyed. Then its too late.
7 posted on 12/28/2002 2:17:09 PM PST by vetvetdoug
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach; NorCoGOP; Congressman Billybob
PETA PING!

Being omnivores, they can eat anything that moves, so long as it is small enough for them to kill. The list is long and covers amphibians, reptiles, small mammals -- frogs, lizards, snakes, mice and even small fawns.

Actually, I remember a story of a boat that sank with a cargo of pigs.

The good news is that the pigs survived by swimming to a small island.

The bad news was that the island was populated by rattlesnakes. No one figured any pigs would survive..

The really good news was when the owners finally showed up on the island to collect what few hides could be salvaged, they discovered ALL the pigs were not only alive but MUCH FATTER since the boat sank. (the pigs ate the snakes, for you slow freepers out there)

So now Kalifornia will outlaw piggies, county by county. Not sure what that will do to... But more importantly, what are Greenies to do when animals (and not humans) impact soft, cuddly and furry critters? My guess is that it will be nothing but silence, just like the immigration problem where illegals stopped on their way North and ate the eggs of endangered species...

Meega, Nala Kweesta!

8 posted on 12/28/2002 2:19:36 PM PST by Experiment 6-2-6
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To: Experiment 6-2-6
``I don't know if it makes me mad or saddens me,'' said Anderson-Minshall. ``I'm aware of the beauty that's lost, and aware of the way they come in and change the natural system in a way so that native plants and animals can't survive.''

Does this remind you of illegal immigration, or what?!

9 posted on 12/28/2002 2:27:59 PM PST by hoosierskypilot
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Got a boar spear I can borrow?
10 posted on 12/28/2002 2:32:13 PM PST by patton
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
creating spaces where it is illegal to introduce or even harbor pigs.

Sounds like the islamic thing to do.

A better solution would be to hire Maruice Bessinger to serve them with mustard sauce. http://www.mauricesbbq.com/

11 posted on 12/28/2002 3:20:09 PM PST by PAR35
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Shoot, skin, cook and eat. Beginning of a great barbeque. End of pig problem.
12 posted on 12/28/2002 3:43:09 PM PST by catpuppy
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
I've been hunting wild pigs in CA for years. I usually try to hunt on public lands, but the best hunting is on private land where you have to know someone or pay someone to hunt (which I won't do for pigs).
13 posted on 12/28/2002 3:45:37 PM PST by umgud
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To: patton
Got a boar spear I can borrow?

As someone who has hunted boar I believe the solution is just that - get hunters in the area. The boars can be eliminated where that's what the land managers want.

A word of caution - forget about spearing boar. They are strong and very tough. In fact, a determined boar can inflict considerable damage on an unsuspecting hunter who thinks he's looking at "piggies."

For a descriptive story of what these "pigs" can do, feel free to Freepmail me.

14 posted on 12/28/2002 3:45:38 PM PST by toddst
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To: toddst
I rather meant a "BOAR SPEAR". Hardened oak. 3 foot steal point. Haft gifted with a crossbar, 6 feet from the operator. Tine on the south end, for planting same.
15 posted on 12/28/2002 4:09:28 PM PST by patton
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To: toddst
Though i've never killed one, I did track wild boar in the Everglades, Big Cypress during dry season when I was a kid. Once one of these guys goes into the thicket growth of a hammock, the only way i'd go in after them is with a large caliber handgun.
16 posted on 12/28/2002 4:19:56 PM PST by Rebelbase
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
From the Palo Alto Daily about two years ago:

Wild pigs are tearing up the Peninsula countryside and have land management officials rooting around for a solution to the pesky porkers.

The pigs pose a threat to dwindling natural habitat and might endanger humans.

So far the Peninsula hasn't seen any reports of pig attacks on people, but that could change, according to Kenneth Nitz, a member of the Midpeninsula Regional Open Space District board which oversees 47,000 acres of protected land from San Jose to San Carlos.

While there have been stories of sows charging bicyclists and hikers to protect their brood in other parts of the state, the pig problem on the Peninsula seems to be limited to damaged ecology, Nitz said. But if the herds continue to swell, it might not be long before the swine show up in backyards, which could be dangerous for small pets, children and even adults, Nitz said.

About 10 months ago rangers and visitors at some of the district's 26 preserves began seeing oodles of the bristly-haired, tusked pigs scampering about, the district's Marketing Director Stephanie Jensen said. The pigs appear to be migrating north from Santa Cruz County, where legend has it they were introduced for sport generations back, Jensen said.

On their way the pigs tear up everything in their path.

Dairy farmers in Santa Cruz County have hired hunters to kill the pigs, which churn up hillsides with their snouts in search of food. The pigs are omnivorous, scouring the land for grubs, roots and acorns.

Packs of the pigs not only uproot native vegetation, they also trample fields and creek beds that support more sensitive species such as endangered California red legged frogs, Jensen said. The feral pigs can breed at age 6 months, and their population can double in a year.

Trap and shoot

To counteract the burgeoning pig problem, the open space district authorized a three year trial trap-and-shoot program. Since September, Dick Seever, who traps pigs for the East Bay Regional Park District and local state parks, has been luring the pigs to box traps with a pungent mix of fermented grains, and then shooting the catch. So far, Seever has disposed of 68 swine- 17 sows, 16 boars and 35 piglets.

The carcasses are sent to a tallow factory at $25 per carcass for disposal. In order to donate the meat for consumption by people or zoo animals, the district would have to get a U.S. Department of Agriculture inspector to inspect the live pigs at a cost prohibitive to the district, according to a report prepared by Jodi Isaacs, the district's resource management Specialist.

While some people might flinch at the idea of trapping and killing pigs, others say there's no way around it.

Dr. Aaron Burr, a La Honda veterinarian who specializes in large animals and livestock and served as a consultant to the Open Space District board, said the feral pigs can pose a serious threat to people. Feral pigs can carry a variety of diseases, including tuberculosis - a potentially fatal respiratory disease - and brucellosis, a painful inflammatory disease that attacks the joints Burr said.

Moreover the pigs have no natural predator except mountain lions, and even mountain lions prefer easier prey such as deer, Burr said. Trapping the pigs becomes an economic necessity when they destroy a farmer's crops and damage flora and fauna, Burr said.

But not everyone agrees with the district's pig policy, said Alfredo Kuba, coordinator of the South Bay branch of In Defense of Animals. Kuba said he protested the trap-and-shoot program last year by sending letters to the open space district board and doing television interviews.

"The problem here is humans create problems by bringing in animals and then we create more suffering by disposing of them," Kuba said.

Kuba said his group of 100 activists would support a program to sterilize the pigs and take them to somewhere where they won't harm the land.

Resource specialist Isaacs' report recommended the board look into sterilizing the pigs as a viable option compared with poison, which could harm other animals, public hunting, which is barred on preserve lands, and lethal injections, which cost between $411 and $461 per pig. Isaacs' report also rejected fencing the preserves as costly and unsightly.

Pig contraception

Wednesday the board allocated $35,000 to continue the trapping, but board members encouraged Isaacs to continue researching chemical or surgical contraception for the pigs.

The board also agreed to spend $8,000 to hire a consultant to study the environmental impact of the pigs on protected land. The consultant will swap findings with groups from Sonoma State University and the state Department of Fisb and Game already studying the pigs at Salt Point State Park in Sonoma County to find out what level of pig activity is tolerable in the preserves.

"The district wants to institute a program that will protect the open space preserves and will be most humane, if we continue to undertake the pig control program," the district's Jensen said.

$461 PER PIG = Fool Employment

Bureaucrats sure know a good thing when they see one.

17 posted on 12/28/2002 5:07:34 PM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach; SierraWasp
creating spaces where it is illegal to introduce or even harbor pigs.

This is a way foisting their problem on everybody else and making money at the same time: fining landowners for "pig harboring" to help force them to sell out to... guess who?

18 posted on 12/28/2002 5:10:20 PM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Bump
19 posted on 12/28/2002 5:12:49 PM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Every few months I read one of these agravating stories. There are lots of hunters who would love to go hunt pigs in Henry Coe park (a huge area just outside of San Jose). These same people (like me) pay several hundred dollars to hunt them on private ranches a couple hours south of here. But do you think the powers that be will allow it? No way. Not even bowhunters. They could make a lot of money selling permits, but instead they spend thousands of dollars to trap and release a handful of them, and in a few months it's right back to the same old story.
20 posted on 12/28/2002 5:12:53 PM PST by Hugin
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
A creek that was filled with fresh water until yesterday now looks like a muddy bog. The ground all around is dug up, and ferns and plants lie trampled. She doesn't need to look at the huge, round, footprints in the mud to guess where the blame lies. The culprits are wild pigs, non-native, sharp-tusked, black bristly marauders who have been causing havoc across Northern California's landscape with increasing frequency.

WHO LET THE LIBERALS OUT ...OINK...OINK...OINK...OINK

21 posted on 12/28/2002 5:13:16 PM PST by ATOMIC_PUNK
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To: Hugin
They could make a lot of money selling permits, but instead they spend thousands of dollars to trap and release a handful of them, and in a few months it's right back to the same old story.

You are correct. However, I thought these folks primarily wanted to control - perhaps eliminate - the pigs. I guess not or they would be inviting hunters in. Beyond belief.

22 posted on 12/28/2002 5:53:21 PM PST by toddst
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To: Rebelbase
Though i've never killed one, I did track wild boar in the Everglades, Big Cypress during dry season when I was a kid. Once one of these guys goes into the thicket growth of a hammock, the only way i'd go in after them is with a large caliber handgun.

Your comments bring reality to the situation. I have used .44 Magnum chambered revolvers as a backup, the primary weapon being a Winchester model 94 lever-action chambered for .44 Magnum (performance is higher from a rifle.) This is a minimum weapon for use on boar - unless you have a death-wish.

23 posted on 12/28/2002 5:59:46 PM PST by toddst
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To: toddst
However, I thought these folks primarily wanted to control - perhaps eliminate - the pigs. I guess not or they would be inviting hunters in.

This is a very liberal area, so don't expect logic on the part of the local officals. A combination of animal rights types, anti-gunners, soccer moms who don't their kiddies to see dead animals, and those who just think hunting is the provice of neandrathal rednecks and sadists combine to shoot down any reasonable discussion of the idea.

24 posted on 12/28/2002 6:05:09 PM PST by Hugin
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To: Hugin
A combination of animal rights types, anti-gunners, soccer moms who don't want their kiddies to see dead animals, and those who just think hunting is the provice of neandrathal rednecks and sadists combine to shoot down any reasonable discussion of the idea.

I would say you are exactly right and under these circumstances the pigs win. How unfortunate.

25 posted on 12/28/2002 6:27:54 PM PST by toddst
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To: catpuppy
Have you ever tried to skin a pig? I wouldn't recomend it! With a sow, you scrape 'em, don't skin 'em. With a bore, you feed it to the dogs and hope they have strong stomachs(and that you live up wind).
26 posted on 12/28/2002 7:05:58 PM PST by FreetheSouth!
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
How did "30 tusked boars" "birth piglets" at the apartment complex?

I am not sure that even 100 times that many boars could have done it.

27 posted on 12/28/2002 7:06:53 PM PST by crystalk
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Nothing that a S&W Model 29, or one of those nifty Ruger .44Mag carbines wouldn't take care of!

All those years that people have been doing handgun siloutte shooting at plate steel pigs can come in handy!
Mark
28 posted on 12/28/2002 7:10:29 PM PST by MarkL
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To: FreetheSouth!
Must admit I have not. I did come home one day to find that wild hogs had carved ditches through my little patch of woods, uprooting stones and whatever else got in their way. A call to the 2nd Amendment believing good old boys who lived nearby took care of the problem.
29 posted on 12/28/2002 8:27:41 PM PST by catpuppy
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
I say round 'em all up, load 'em on C130's, hook a parachute up to their a$$e$ and mass airdrop them over Baghdad!
30 posted on 12/28/2002 8:59:57 PM PST by Happy2BMe
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To: Happy2BMe
I say round 'em all up, load 'em on C130's, hook a parachute up to their a$$e$ and mass airdrop them over Baghdad!

Now that is a great idea!

31 posted on 12/28/2002 9:03:09 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
What effect would Ritalin have on these beasts? Could it be put in their waterholes? Failing that, how about tagging and lobotomizing them? That assault on the apartment complex could be an entertaining TV movie. Does Martin Sheen know about this? How big is his estate?
32 posted on 12/28/2002 9:12:16 PM PST by 185JHP
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To: FreetheSouth!
With a bore, you feed it to the dogs and hope they have strong stomachs(and that you live up wind).

Wonderful idea, but feeding your tedious party guests to the dogs will get you talked about. Being a bore should indeed merit the death penalty, but its not PC to actually come out and say it.

33 posted on 12/28/2002 9:13:40 PM PST by strela
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To: toddst
Your comments bring reality to the situation. I have used .44 Magnum chambered revolvers as a backup, the primary weapon being a Winchester model 94 lever-action chambered for .44 Magnum (performance is higher from a rifle.) This is a minimum weapon for use on boar - unless you have a death-wish.

I have killed 5 wild pigs with a Bowie knife and two with a .308.

The .308 is safer and brings them down every time, but the knife is more exciting.

34 posted on 12/28/2002 9:38:39 PM PST by CurlyDave
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To: toddst
Your comments bring reality to the situation. I have used .44 Magnum chambered revolvers as a backup, the primary weapon being a Winchester model 94 lever-action chambered for .44 Magnum (performance is higher from a rifle.) This is a minimum weapon for use on boar - unless you have a death-wish.

I have killed 5 wild pigs with a Bowie knife and two with a .308.

The .308 is safer and brings them down every time, but the knife is more exciting.

35 posted on 12/28/2002 9:38:58 PM PST by CurlyDave
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To: Carry_Okie; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Hugin; Boot Hill; budwiesest; Phil V.
Ya know... I wuz jus thinkin... Too bad that nut that drove his eighteen wheeler into the Crapitol a coupla years ago didn't have a load uv these muthas on board! If thay'd excaped the flames without bein BBQ'ed, they coulda layed waste to the place... especially Steve Peace's office since he wuz still there at the time.

"No Steve! It ain't the attack of the Killer Tomatoes! It's liberal PORK that's turned on ya! Yee Haaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

36 posted on 12/28/2002 9:50:05 PM PST by SierraWasp
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To: Grampa Dave
Oops, I meant ta ping yew tew that last one!

Have ya been pilin up sandbags taday?

37 posted on 12/28/2002 9:52:55 PM PST by SierraWasp
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To: ATOMIC_PUNK
"WHO LET THE LIBERALS OUT ...OINK...OINK...OINK...OINK"

Thanks fer bringin a grin ta my face.

Hey! Didn't you do a bowing out thread the other day? Maybe I've got you cornfused with somebody else.

38 posted on 12/28/2002 9:56:07 PM PST by SierraWasp
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To: SierraWasp
"No Steve! It ain't the attack of the Killer Tomatoes! It's liberal PORK that's turned on ya! Yee Haaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

ROFL!!

39 posted on 12/28/2002 10:02:44 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Is there some way they could be herded down to the Mexican border? Could solve 2 problems at once.
40 posted on 12/28/2002 10:15:36 PM PST by Datom
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
"..able to produce as many as 16 piglets a year.
....they out-compete other species for food.
...no one really knows how to stop them."

..sound like great neighbors.

41 posted on 12/28/2002 10:30:16 PM PST by Jorge
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
We're doing our civic duty and taking as many as we can. Most of the problem areas with hogs in California don't allow public hunting so the state pays trappers to remove the hogs at a very high price.


42 posted on 12/28/2002 11:40:28 PM PST by spectr17
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Allowing hunters to pay a fee and then get rid of the pigs would be a good solution, especially because the parks systems are so strapped for cash right now.

But the weenie left-wing bureaucrats don't want to let hunters in because anything that rocks the boat could be bad for their careers (they're more careerist than politically correct). All it would take is one dumb hunter to put a bullet into a house near one of the parks, and their would be a public outcry.

There is a solution to this--that is to let a Ranger guide the sport hunters. It could be done early in the morning, before the park opens, so the ranger would not be needed elsewhere, and there would be no people around to accidentally get shot. The ranger could make sure the hunters aren't going off park property or shooting from somewhere that was dangerous. If the park charged the hunters enough, it could be profitable. Some hunters might be willing to pay the higher fees to help the parks system; others might like the convenience of being able to hunt nearby (I don't know what the hog-hunting situation is in the Bay Area, but most of the parks are very close to major cities).

They could charge a thousand dollars to lead a hunt, and then pay hunters back $100 for every pig they killed (or whatever, I'm just throwing out figures here). Hunters could take and eat the pigs (after all, they're non-native), or they could leave them to rot (it's a park, that's what dead animals do there). Hunters could go in during the early morning (Is that a time when hogs are active?), hunt, and have their guns put away/a pig on the barbie by the time regular park visitors come. None of the park visitors would even have to see the guns (which might offend them, this being the Bay Area and whatnot).

43 posted on 12/29/2002 12:16:54 AM PST by xm177e2
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To: SierraWasp
We live on a hillside, and I have to make sure that our French Drains and the dry creek made into a huge French Drain stay functional. If not we might end up in the flood plains a mile or so down stream.

It started pouring yesterday at about 2 pm and rained hard until early this morning. I heard water flowing at about 4:30 am and got up to check the drains. The drains were fine, our back yard irrigation and drip system had malfunctioned and was watering the lawn. Just what the yard didn't need. I unplugged the whole system and called the yard maintenance office and left a message to them to leave it unplugged until it gets dry again.

Right now we have clear blue skies, the first in about two weeks.
44 posted on 12/29/2002 7:55:43 AM PST by Grampa Dave
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
A little history is indicated here. There are wild hogs and feral hogs/pigs in California.

When the Russians had a settlement in Fort Ross in N. California on the coast, they brought over their Russian Boars for food and to breed for hunting.

The descendants of those Wild Russian Boars are still in those areas (isolated areas of the Russian River up the coast to ?).

These are huge wild boars. They are very scary. It is a lot of fun to be fishing for Steelhead early in the morning and hear what sounds like clumsy fisherman. You turn to the noise and see several of these mean and ugly critters out in the water crossing or eating plants at the edge of the river. You really feel secure armed with a graphite fly rod that weighs a few ounces versus a mean wild Russian Boar that may weight 2-3 hundred pounds.

These wild hogs will breed with feral hogs.

Most of the so called wild hogs are feral hogs. They got loose from farms or were put there by some whackos. Within a few generations, Darwin rids the herd of the domestic hog/pig genes. What is left is a semi wild feral offspring. They are mean, lean and a destroyer of anything that gets in its way. They will breed 2 to 3 times per year.

When they come to a new area to root around and ruin, you can track their paths very easily. If twenty hogs/pigs are in the group, the path might be 20 to 40 feet wide or more with the dirt turned over by their hooves or snouts up to 1 foot deep depending on the season. Wet times of the year like now, they can root down a foot or more with no problem.

There is only one way to handle them. You have private hunters or professional hunters kill them. All of them must be killed. Leave one male and one female and in a year or two, the problem is back again.

The Bravo Sierra suggestions of capturing, stunning, sterilizing them and relocating them could end up costing over $1,000 per hog/pig. Where ever they are transferred, they will destroy that environment.

Of course the Bambi lovers, Peta Freaks and Critters over Human whackos will not allow hunters to kill these invaders. So the problem will increase and left wing legislators will create study groups and non profit groups which will be funded with our tax $'s to study the problem. When that happens, there will be no solution, and the problem will grow in the number of ferral hogs/pigs, areas infected and costs to our society.
45 posted on 12/29/2002 8:16:59 AM PST by Grampa Dave
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To: CurlyDave
I have killed 5 wild pigs with a Bowie knife and two with a .308.

The .308 is safer and brings them down every time, but the knife is more exciting.

Exciting, you say? Yipes!! There is no way on Gods green earth I would ever attempt killing a boar with anything other than a firearm. Even using the .44 Magnum with maximum loads, stopping a boar at close range is iffy. They are very tough animals and can take what amount to heart shots but still not go down immediately.

You are a better man than I am, Charlie Brown.

46 posted on 12/29/2002 9:22:41 AM PST by toddst
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
A swine time!
47 posted on 12/29/2002 12:01:30 PM PST by sheik yerbouty
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To: SierraWasp

Shuussssh . . . he's catchin' buzzards . . .

48 posted on 12/29/2002 2:35:52 PM PST by Socks C.
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To: Grampa Dave; Carry_Okie
"Right now we have clear blue skies, the first in about two weeks."

And that's just a "sucker hole!"

As I watched the Raiders game yesterday, they showed Carry Okie's area gittin all yella, orange an RED!!!

Them KC Cheaps looked like drowned RATS!!!

49 posted on 12/29/2002 4:05:17 PM PST by SierraWasp
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To: Socks C.
Socks!!!

I thot yew died an went ta Pussey Heaven!!!

Wuz dat yew dat attracted alla them buzzards that wuz heddin yer way last year?

P.S. Next time, put a diaper on that piggy so I don't hafta look at his privates!!!

50 posted on 12/29/2002 4:10:05 PM PST by SierraWasp
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