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Sharon: Jewish conversion process should be shortened
Haaretz ^ | December 31, 2002 | Aluf Benn

Posted on 12/30/2002 4:34:38 PM PST by naine

Sharon: Jewish conversion process should be shortened

Secular Jews shouldn't immigrate to Israel, Shas minister says

By Aluf Benn

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said yesterday that the process of converting to Judaism should be shortened, in response to Health Minister Nissim Dahan's remarks that secular Jews should not immigrate to Israel.

"It should be possible for anyone who wants to become a Jew to do so," the prime minister said at yesterday's weekly cabinet meeting.

During the meeting, Dahan's comments were sharply criticized by ministers Natan Sharansky (Yisrael b'Aliyah) and Yitzhak Levy (National Religious Party).

Israel Radio reported earlier yesterday that Dahan said Diaspora Jews should not immigrate to Israel if they think that they would be unable to adopt a religious lifestyle once they got here. Dahan's comments before a convention of World Orthodox Jewry in Jerusalem drew fire from the convention delegates, who were discussing the Jewish nature of Israel.

Dahan explained that he feared the erosion of the state's Jewish identity, adding that the presence of Jews in the Diaspora was a result of God's benevolence. "We prefer a Jew overseas to a gentile in Israel," Dahan said.

Rabbis and Jewish community leaders denounced Dahan's statement. Minister Levy said that Jews should be encouraged to immigrate to Israel without any connection to the political or religious situation in the country.

"Dahan's statements are a complete distortion of Judaism," MK Zevulun Orlev (NRP) said. "The mitzva of immigrating to Israel is unconditional, and (Dahan's statements) are a heresy against Zionism. I doubt whether a cabinet minister who says such things and encourages people not to immigrate to Israel can be a member of the government."

Jewish Agency Chairman Sallai Meridor said yesterday that he hoped Dahan would soon retract his remarks. "Such statements have not been heard since the beginning of Zionism. His statement is a serious anti-Zionist utterance," Meridor said. "The minister chose to encourage Jews not to immigrate to Israel - against the policy of the Israeli government."

Following up on Dahan's comments, Shas Chairman and Interior Minister Eli Yishai said that Diaspora Jews who are considering immigration must be told that there is a danger that Israel will become a secular country with a secular government.

"If Israel is losing its Jewish character and becoming a secular state, should we bring here the Jews of the Diaspora, who keep the Torah in their communities, so they can be assimilated in a place where churches are built?

"It is better to stay Jewish anywhere else, and not to come to Israel to assimilate," Yishai said. "When the state was established, Ben-Gurion told our parents and grandparents that a Jewish state will be established, and they came to Israel. Today, you can ask our parents whether they would have come here had they known that [Shinui Chairman Yosef] Lapid would destroy the Jewish state and form a secular government with [Labor Chairman Amram] Mitzna. The answer is simple: They would have preferred to stay in Morocco, Tunis and Iran and to remain Jews."

Yishai warned of the implications of a secular government: "A secular state will bring, according to Sallai Meridor, hundreds of thousands of goyim (gentiles), who will build hundreds of churches and will open more stores that sell pork. In every city we will see Christmas trees. This is what Yosef Lapid and Amram Mitzna want."

Yishai also said that the Law of Return must be changed to ban gentiles from immigrating.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Israel
KEYWORDS: conversion; immigration; israel; judaism; orthodox; orthodoxjudaism

1 posted on 12/30/2002 4:34:38 PM PST by naine
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To: naine
A secular state will bring, according to Sallai Meridor, hundreds of thousands of goyim (gentiles), who will build hundreds of churches and will open more stores that sell pork.

Translation: Please let Israel be overrun by Islamic suicide bombers that want to commit genocide against us. At least they don't eat pork like those evil Christians!

Good thing not all Israelis think like Yishai.

2 posted on 12/30/2002 4:45:37 PM PST by wideawake
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To: naine
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said yesterday that the process of converting to Judaism should be shortened: "It should be possible for anyone who wants to become a Jew to do so."

Conversion is governed by the specific provisions of Jewish law. The head of a secular government has absolutely no role in this matter, any more than he could say "the rules for declaring food kosher should be relaxed sot any food can become kosher."

3 posted on 12/30/2002 4:49:56 PM PST by governsleastgovernsbest
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To: wideawake
WideAwake, you've taken this a bit too far: when one tried to maintain one's identity, one does not necessarily view the alternatives as evil. Particular steps one take towards that end may be wrong and/or stupid, but the motivation does not impute any attributes to the alternatives.
4 posted on 12/30/2002 4:54:58 PM PST by TopQuark
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To: wideawake
Besides, it's all too late. I believe it was Golda Meier who stated 3 decades ago that 70% of Israeli Jews were secular. They have, for the most part, forgotten their God. Such is certainly the case for most Jews in this country who are Jewish by tradition only.
5 posted on 12/30/2002 4:55:27 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: naine
"It should be possible for anyone who wants...

Why is it that the secularsits can't keep their hands off religion? Who is Sharon or Perez to decide on rabbinical matters?

They are politicians and may consider changing the immigration policy if they so choose; that is their spehere. I was appalled at the words of Perez that he "will decide who the rabbis are."

Wherever they are, the secularists can't be and let others be: they burn churches and sinagogues. And then they accuse the "fundamentalists" of being intolerant.

6 posted on 12/30/2002 5:00:05 PM PST by TopQuark
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To: naine; 2sheep; Jeremiah Jr; Simcha7; dennisw
Yishai warned of the implications of a secular government: "A secular state will bring, according to Sallai Meridor, hundreds of thousands of goyim (gentiles), who will build hundreds of churches...

Jeremiah 31:6-9

6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

***

In all seriousness, what kind of goyim would come in droves? A: Zionist Christians, who more than likely would happily "adopt a religious lifestyle once they got here", because

They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them

Ephraim = melo hagoyim

7 posted on 12/30/2002 5:15:37 PM PST by Thinkin' Gal
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To: naine
"It should be possible for anyone who wants to become a Jew to do so,"

It's a shame they're not this tolerant about converting to Christianity...

8 posted on 12/30/2002 5:35:35 PM PST by pocat
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To: Thinkin' Gal
In all seriousness, what kind of goyim would come in droves? A: Zionist Christians, who more than likely would happily "adopt a religious lifestyle once they got here"

I don't know what article you were reading, but that's exactly the nightmare that's keeping Yishai up at night. I.e. it pains him to see Christian symbols and places of worship in Israel as they threaten Jewish identity/homogenity/purity/whatever.

So get back on the boat, goyim!
9 posted on 12/30/2002 5:44:46 PM PST by Deathmonger
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To: Deathmonger
Yeah but aren't many of the pork vendors the Russians who say they are Jews?
10 posted on 12/30/2002 6:03:52 PM PST by Thinkin' Gal
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To: Thinkin' Gal
May be--I don't know. Remember that many of the Russians were brought in to compete in the population race with the Palestinians, and Jews weren't the only ones looking to escape the Soviet Union.

I don't catch the consequence of your point though.
11 posted on 12/30/2002 6:10:52 PM PST by Deathmonger
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To: TopQuark
Why is it that the secularsits can't keep their hands off religion? Who is Sharon or Perez to decide on rabbinical matters?

This may actually be a positive developement. It possibly is the realization by the secular politicos that their star is in decline and that Observant Jews are becoming a demographic force.

The only reason for these types of statements by Sharon, et al, is because there is a tidal wave of observant Jews coming towards them. It is completely Israeli to try to change the rules of the game by these sorts of statments and attacks on the fundamentals of Judaism. Sharon is hardly the first Israeli leader to attack his observant brethren. With the birth of every new baby to a religious household, the old guard is viewing its own marginalization.

12 posted on 12/30/2002 6:36:12 PM PST by Nachum
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To: Nachum
Sharon is hardly the first Israeli leader to attack his observant brethren. You are correct, of course. Unfortunately, this places him in common with so many other leftists, from both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds.
13 posted on 12/30/2002 7:07:18 PM PST by TopQuark
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To: Thinkin' Gal
I don't think there are many sources of pork in Israel, though there are certain restaurants that are just deliberately non-kosher and have all the forbidden dishes, including pork, shrimps, lobster, stroganoff, lasagna etc/
14 posted on 12/30/2002 7:12:53 PM PST by crystalk
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: TopQuark
Not just leftists. The secular right is not very different.
16 posted on 12/30/2002 7:28:13 PM PST by Nachum
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
Conversion is governed by the specific provisions of Jewish law.

Yes, but these provisions are themselves subject to varying degrees of interpretation. In Israel conversion and marriage are controlled by the Orthodox. Sharon's remarks, nor any Israeli law, can change the Jewish laws. But Sharon can change the Israeli governments definition of who is a Jew. And he can appeal to the Beit Din (Religious court) to reexamine the issues of conversion.

At one time (a long time ago) it mattered not whether your mother of father was a Jew -- either would do. Now it is matrilinial.

To become a Jew in Israel, one has to undergo a rigorous lifestyle change, and depending on which sect you choose so goes the type of change. To become a Jew in the USA, depending on which sect and which branch (orthodox, conservative or reform), you may not have to change your life much.

But the Orthodox will not accept a reform or conservative conversion. The result is a lot of confused people, a lot of unhappy people, and a lot of people who want to be Jews but do not accept the Orthodox interpretation of Halacha.

As in the days of yore, there were the Pharisees, Saducees and other sects of Jews. Each sect adopted different interpretations of Jewish law. There needs to be more unanimity.

Before I ramble too much, there is a question of priority. If the Orthodox believe that having more Jews is a priority, they will change their rulings to permit easier conversion, and hope that those who convert will slowly come closer to living a Torah life. The way it stands now, they want proof that you will live a Torah (as defined by them) life BEFORE you will convert. And in many respects it is a double standard, because even the Orthodox recognize the principle that no Jew is perfect, and that one of the purposes in life for a Jew is to spend the life becoming a better Jew one step at a time.

17 posted on 12/30/2002 7:33:39 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: monkeyshine
"It should be possible for anyone who wants to become a Jew to do so," the prime minister said at yesterday's weekly cabinet meeting.

You have hit the essence, but I don't agree with your conclusions.

It is already possible, for anyone who WANTS to become a Jew, but it's the definition of Jew, and the demonstration of commitment , or lack of, that is relevant to or found "wanting."

If the Orthodox believe that having more Jews is a priority, they will change their ruling to permit easier conversion, and hope that those who convert will slowly come closer to living a Torah life.

Yes we need more Jews, but history has proven and still proves that "hoping" doesn't work.

Making it easier to convert to Judaism doesn't make more Jews. Reform and Conservative Jews are losing membership EVERY YEAR to assimilation and intermarriage.

Judaism has stayed alive with commitment to core values and observances, including keeping kosher, keeping the Sabbath, laws of family, including marriage etc. The communities that held these commitments (and that weren't wiped out by Hitler, (yms) have kept Judaism alive (yes, Jews of all levels of observance have also laid their lives on the line to keep Israel alive...)

The way it stands now, they want proof that you will live a Torah (as defined by them) life BEFORE you will convert. And in many respects it is a double standard, because even the Orthodox recognize the principle that no Jew is perfect, and that one of the purposes in life for a Jew is to spend the life becoming a better Jew one step at a time.

WADR, that's not a double standard. If a potential convert can't exhibit at least some commitment to try and hold by the standards BEFORE they convert, there is little likelihood that they will hold strong after. Think of all the "for marriage" converts here in the U.S. From empirical knowledge, I know that few of them stay on the same madrega/level from their conversion, and few advance. There are, gratefully, remarkable and successful exceptions.

People should understand that much of the above discussion in the post is rhetoric, for control of funds for religious institutions weighed against votes. It's revolting, but it's reality.

The bottom line is that if someone wants to convert Orthodox in Israel, afaik you do NOT have to move to Bnei Brak and starting wearing payes; consistently keeping the abovementioned Mitzvot (and others), some consistent attempt at learning and respect for the customs of the community involved will earn the Righteous Convert, the Ger Tzedak, the respect that Orthodox Jews have given them 3x day for nearly (more than?) 2 millenia:

In the Amidah, in Al Hatzadikim - On The Righteous we ask G-d for compassion for the righteous converts BEFORE we ask for ourselves... We are never to forget that when we stood and received the Law, we were all converts... and we became that way by saying not "we shall listen and we shall do," but the reverse:"we shall do and we shall listen."

18 posted on 12/30/2002 11:52:54 PM PST by Yehuda
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To: monkeyshine
I appreciate your response. Still, I disagree with an unstated but significant premise of your argument: that the rules covering conversion (or any other aspect of Jewish law) are subject to change in accordance with what are the essentially political goals of the rabbis.

Thus you state: "If the Orthodox believe that having more Jews is a priority, they will change their rulings to permit easier conversion."

I have no doubt that if I were to ask an Orthodox rabbi to evaluate that statement, he would say something along the following lines: "even if my goal were to have more Jews in Israel, it is not within my power to change the laws of conversion, which are immutable, any more than I could change the laws of kashrut in order to have more kosher food available."
19 posted on 12/31/2002 2:53:05 AM PST by governsleastgovernsbest
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To: naine
Bump
20 posted on 12/31/2002 3:19:27 AM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: Yehuda
We shall do, and understand...
24/7
21 posted on 12/31/2002 9:46:05 AM PST by Jeremiah Jr
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To: Jeremiah Jr
At first glance, one would reply that to understand you first have to listen...

Na'aseh venishma - "Battle Cry of Destiny."

But iirc it's about unquestionable faith; that may lead to some understanding, but when we accept the yoke of Heaven and Torah, we do it acknowledging that we can never truly comprehend.

(But trying sure makes it interesting...!)

22 posted on 12/31/2002 10:29:12 AM PST by Yehuda
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To: crystalk
, stroganoff, lasagna etc

stroganoff, which starts as beef stroganoff can't be non-kosher, well, if the beef's kosher, of course:)

23 posted on 12/31/2002 2:35:16 PM PST by Words
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
Conversion is governed by the specific provisions of Jewish law. The head of a secular government has absolutely no role in this matter,

Fun is - when a certain female in jewish history said "Your G-d is my G-d" the conversion problem was settled right there.
Now there's a bunch of would-be G-d "aide-interpreters", who feel free to change Halaha as they please with the right to revoke the convert's "jewishness" if he or she stumbles in his or her day to day life
I don't buy it!

24 posted on 12/31/2002 2:53:10 PM PST by Words
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
They probably would say they are immutable, in so far as they believe in the interpretations they believe. At the same time, it is within their power to make the interpretation. The only thing that could sway them is a well thought out halachic argument.

There are various sects of orthodox Jews that have different thresholds for conversion. From what I know, most of them require strict sabbath observance above all else. It really depends on which rabbis you assemble to determine if/when you will be eligible. As far as I know, there is no universal application... it's really more a matter of convincing the beit din (a religious court assembled for this purpose), which consists of 3 people (including at least one rabbi) of the sincerity of your application.

There have been attempts in Israel to get the various sects together to agree on a universal methodology, but the Orthodox rabbis wouldn't let go of their political power. In Israel they have full control of these matters.

25 posted on 12/31/2002 3:27:39 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: Words
who feel free to change Halaha as they please with the right to revoke the convert's "jewishness" if he or she stumbles

I'm with you there. I am generally very supportive of the Orthodox communities, though not a member myself. But you mentioned the one particular issue that ticks me off the most -- the revocation of one's Jewishness. I think it's an absolutely atrocious religious ruling. Once a Jew, always a Jew! I cannot understand how they can convert someone, and then revoke that conversion! Suddenly, they think they are the pope or something. A person born of a Jewish mother could never be 'excommunicated' in any way... so I wonder where these rabbi get off "excommunicating" a convert. One is never supposed to remind a convert that he/she is a convert. Holding this threat of excommunication over their heads is a violation of Jewish law, IMHO, and is a practice that should be abandoned.

26 posted on 12/31/2002 3:32:59 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: angelo; Cinnamon Girl
ping to the conversation, if you are interested.
27 posted on 12/31/2002 3:35:05 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: monkeyshine
The Rambam says a person must accept the "yoke of Torah" in order to convert, meaning, they must commit to living by the law without exception. There is a difference between recognizing that you must strive to raise your level of observance and deciding or declaring, as reform Jews do, that you don't want or need to observe G-d's laws. Why should a person who does not want to live by G-d's laws convert? The Rambam says a person who doesn't accept the 13 Principles of Faith is an apikoros. Accepting that you need to do something, or that you believe something, is different than being "perfect" in your observance of the law. No human is or ever was perfect.
28 posted on 12/31/2002 3:47:35 PM PST by Cinnamon Girl
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To: Yehuda
Allow me to clarify. It is not my contention that one should be allowed to convert to Judaism for the jokes.

I do believe that many of the reform and conservative converts get lost. This is because their clergy do not have a way to make Judaism relevent to them. The a la cart cafeteria Judaism reform offers does not instill many Jewish values. Of course Judaism is religion of laws, a religion of practice and behavior, not just belief. This needs to be made clear to all converts, but it must be made relevent to them.

I agree that one must make changes in one's life to become a Jew. It is simply my opinion that the threshold is too high.

And there is a double standard. A secular Jew will be hounded all of his life by Chabad (I don't mean that in a disparaging way, I think Chabad does great mitzvot for the world) to be a better Jew. They will out of their way to help a Jew do Mitzvot, putting Mezzuzot on jail cells or going door to door to help him light sabbath candles or the channukiah. One step at a time. The convert, on the other hand, has a lot further to go. Often, it demands a strict sabbath observance which is a major lifestyle change. And the revocation of their conversion for failing to improve or stumbling backwards is particularly distasteful to me... it is as if the convert is being set up to fail, because the threshold is so high.

IMHO, there needs to be a process that encourages a convert to continue moving forward. I agree that Reform will more or less lose their Jews because the emphasis is all wrong. But afaic, the Orthodox process asks for too much of a down payment, and the double standard exists in the way one treats a secular Jew vs the way one treats a gentile seeking conversion.

29 posted on 12/31/2002 3:53:11 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: Cinnamon Girl
Why should a person who does not want to live by G-d's laws convert?

They shouldn't.

But want to and practice are two different elements. And I think it's very hard for a non-Jew who accepts the yolk of Torah to turn that into full fledged practice. Heck, it's hard enough for a secular Jew.

And what constitues the correct practice is up for debate and up for manipulation and subject to the times. You don't really believe, for example, that by running a string around a 4 square mile block exempts Jews from breaking the sabbath laws of carrying books and tallis in the streets, do you? Well maybe you do. And I don't object to it. I only point out that what constitutes correct practice can be subjective and can be interpreted.

Tell me, what do you think about the practice of revoking one's conversion?

30 posted on 12/31/2002 4:03:07 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: Cinnamon Girl
Nahmanides and several others says there are only 3 tenets of Jewish faith. Belief in Hashem, Belief in Creation (or in Divine revelation or Torah), and belief in providence/retribution -- the omnipotence and relevence of Hashem in one's life.
31 posted on 12/31/2002 4:18:00 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: monkeyshine
13 articles of Jewish faith, according to Rambam:

1. G-d exists.
2. G-d is one and unique.
3. G-d is incorporeal.
4. G-d is eternal.
5. Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone.
6. The words of the prophets are true.
7. Moses was the greatest prophet, and his prophecies are true.
8. The Torah was given to Moses.
9. There will be no other Torah.
10. G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men.
11. G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked.
12. The Messiah will come.
13. The dead will be resurrected.

32 posted on 12/31/2002 4:43:02 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: Words
Those things, because they combine meat and dairy/egg products, are of course strictly off limits.

Even mayonnaise cannot be consumed with meat on the same sandwich.

33 posted on 12/31/2002 5:40:35 PM PST by crystalk
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To: monkeyshine
I haven't personally ever heard of someone's conversion being "revoked." Have you?
34 posted on 12/31/2002 6:25:49 PM PST by Cinnamon Girl
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To: monkeyshine
Judaism is RABBINIC Judaism, monkeyshine, as you know. We are not karites. Any understanding of the laws today must be based on the Written AND Oral law. And the problem with someone who wants to convert to Judaism, but doesn't accept Rabbinic law, is that-- they are not then practicing Judaism, and they are not Jewish. Basically, if someone does not go to a mikvah and accept upon themselves the practice of Shabbos, Kashrus, and Taharas Hamishpacha, their conversion is not a conversion.
35 posted on 12/31/2002 6:30:22 PM PST by Cinnamon Girl
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To: Cinnamon Girl
Yes, in fact several people in Israel have had their conversions revoked. Do a web search on it. It's quite controversial and quite disconcerting -- especially to the children of these converts.
36 posted on 12/31/2002 6:50:27 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: Cinnamon Girl
Thanks for putting up with my stubborness. You know I mean no offense in challenging these concepts.

And the problem with someone who wants to convert to Judaism, but doesn't accept Rabbinic law, is that-- they are not then practicing Judaism, and they are not Jewish

I don't dispute that, although the acceptance of Mishnah is unquestionably an act of faith - we believe it to have been written and passed down orally accurately.

I dispute the degree in which this is enforced, and the apparant double standard applied to prospective converts vs secular Jews. A person born of a Jewish mother is a Jew even if he cooks and eats lobster on Shabbat. Is defiance of Jewish law the same as rejection of Jewish law?

There really is a great arbitrary nature to all this. If you find a beit din of Sabbath observant Jews, 2 witnesses and a rabbi, to convert you, you are a Jew. Certainly they have an obligation to ensure your sincerity, but no 2 beit din's will maintain the same requirements, and there is essentially no way to ensure observance thereafter.

37 posted on 12/31/2002 7:13:36 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: monkeyshine
And I have no idea on what halachic basis any beit din finds the authority to annul a conversion.

On what basis does the Orthodox community refuse to accept a conversion by a beit din?

38 posted on 12/31/2002 7:35:32 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: monkeyshine
Rambam doesn't say there has to be a rabbi at a conversion. The Torah definition of a kosher witness is one who is observant of the law. And yes, most bais dins would be in agreement about basic requirements for conversion-- if all the witnesses are Torah Jews. The fact that a totally non-observant Jew is still Jewish if he has a Jewish mother may seem like a rip off to people who want to call themselves Jewish and blow off the laws, but the definitions of who is a Jew are understood in Rabbinic Judaism, and, like the prohibition against cooking meat and milk together, Hashem has His reasons, and we accept His laws.
39 posted on 12/31/2002 9:42:31 PM PST by Cinnamon Girl
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To: monkeyshine
Please help me out by giving me some links to these stories. I'm seriously not familiar with lots of people in Israel having their "conversions revoked."
40 posted on 12/31/2002 9:44:15 PM PST by Cinnamon Girl
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To: crystalk
Those things, because they combine meat and dairy/egg products, are of course strictly off limits.

The recipee of beef-stroganoff was a little revised not to include anything of dairy products
Tasty:)

41 posted on 12/31/2002 11:33:53 PM PST by Words
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To: crystalk
You can eat egg and meat together, crystalk. Egg is not dairy.
42 posted on 01/01/2003 1:25:07 PM PST by Cinnamon Girl
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To: Cinnamon Girl
So, why no mayo on a fleshik sandwich then already?
43 posted on 01/01/2003 1:35:03 PM PST by crystalk
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To: crystalk
I put mayo on a fleishig sandwich all time. Regular mayo is parve. Eggs are parve.
44 posted on 01/01/2003 3:53:48 PM PST by Cinnamon Girl
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To: Cinnamon Girl
I don't know that it's "lots" of people, but some have. Here are some links:

http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v36/mj_v36i54.html

http://www.irac.org/article_e.asp?artid=15 (last paragraph)
45 posted on 01/01/2003 4:34:57 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: crystalk
Are you kidding? I think "thou shall put mayo on roast beef" is a commandment.
46 posted on 01/01/2003 4:45:06 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: monkeyshine
Thank you for taking the time to find some links for me, monkeyshine. Having read them, neither one substantiates anyone's claim that rabbis are retroactively nullifying conversions. The first source merely discusses whether it is possible halachically (which isn't supported) and the second source, is from a "Progressive Jewish" action committee in Israel, and again, doesn't give any real reports, but merely claims, for obviously biased reasons, that Orthodox rabbis are giving people a hard time for no reason and yanking conversions willy nilly.

It sounds a lot like this whole discussion is based on some angry rumors by non-observant Jews who just don't like Halacha.

47 posted on 01/01/2003 7:30:18 PM PST by Cinnamon Girl
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To: monkeyshine; DBtoo; Bella_Bru; MissLuluBelle
Interesting discussion, thanks for the ping.
48 posted on 01/02/2003 10:38:42 PM PST by malakhi
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