The Catholic Example

The New York Sun ^ | 12/31/02

[nypokerface]

If New York City’s public school system could educate a child for what it costs to educate a child in one of New York’s Catholic schools, the city would be spending about $6.5 billion less on its Department of Education each year. That’s setting aside special education, which is a topic for another editorial.*

In 1962, New York educated a student population of about one million with about 40,000 teachers. Today, the city educates about 100,000 more students, but the number of teachers has doubled to about 80,000. Has the quality of education improved by a factor of two? If the question doesn’t make you cringe, you haven’t seen the latest test scores for New York City’s schools. Only 29.8% of the city’s eighth-graders, to take but one of many examples of the public school system’s failings, were able to test to standard on the math test.

The cost to educate the students in New York’s Catholic schools averages $3,200 a pupil for Kindergarten through eighth grade and $5,800 a pupil for high schoolers, according to a spokeswoman for the Archdiocese of New York, Nora Murphy. Most of that comes from tuition, but contributions from graduates and other donors cover a 10% to 20% share. The public schools spend nearly double that, about $10,000 each in elementary and middle schools and more than $9,000 for each high-school student.

The two largest factors that account for the difference in costs are the government bureaucracy surrounding the schools and the enormous power of the city’s teachers union. These two factors, minimized in the Catholic school system, are the biggest obstacles to education reform in New York’s public schools.

The Archdiocese of New York is able to administer to about 110,000 students with a total central administrative staff of 28. At that level, the city’s school system would have no more than a few hundred administrative staff. But New York has almost 9,000 administrators, secretaries, clerks, accountants, and other assorted bureaucrats. In total, the city’s school system employs more than 136,000 persons, a ratio of about one employee for every nine students.

When asked what makes the Catholic schools stand apart from the public schools, Ms. Murphy of the Archdiocese said the differences are a lower average teacher salary, less top-down management, an administrative consciousness toward cost-effectiveness, and small schools. New York’s Catholic schools have few assistant principals. They don’t centrally budget everything that goes into making a school run.

Jay Greene of the Manhattan Institute’s Center for Civic Innovation had a different way of expressing the bureaucratic obstacles to improving the city’s education. In the Catholic schools, teachers and administrators “trust each other,” he said. Because the teachers share a sense of philanthropy and there are fewer rules and administrators to enforce them, Catholic schools offer a better work environment and a sense of mission, something that allows the schools to attract teachers who will work for about half the salary of a New York City teacher.

Granted, some of the Catholic school teachers are nuns and priests. By definition, these teachers do not have families to support or other expenses that non-clerical teachers have. But, despite the popular stereotypes to the contrary, Catholic school teachers are not primarily nuns — religious figures make up a minority of these teachers. Also, the public school system does provide some services to the private religious school system, such as transportation. These costs are added to the Department of Education’s budget and diminish the per-pupil cost of Catholic schools. Catholic schools also have a limited special education program. Still, says Mr. Greene, the per-pupil costs would still be much lower for Catholic education with these factors figured in.

A sense of philanthropy is hardly something that is missing from potential teachers in New York’s pool. The New York City Teaching Fellows program saw a 21% increase in applications this year. What is missing is the sense of urgency. Schools Chancellor Joel Klein has made some steps toward improving the way the schools do business —laying off administrators and moving to privatize some of the school system’s accounting functions. But the city faces a $6 billion budget gap and already high taxes. It’s hard to see how the politicians can go on claiming there is no room to cut when the Catholic schools are educating students at half the price that the city bureaucrats are — and with better results on standardized tests. Parents seem to realize this: When private philanthropists offered 7,500 scholarships to New York City private and parochial schools in 1999, applications were filed for nearly 170,000 students.

The city could try wrestling concessions out of its unions, laying off administrators, and increasing class sizes until it could educate a student for what it costs the Archdiocese — and then try improving quality so that it attains the same results.

But a simpler way might be to just offer a publicly funded voucher to any student who wants one, and let the schools sprout up to fill the need. If the demand for vouchers is still at 1999 levels, that would mean 162,500 students channeled out of the public school system. Assume that it costs $7,000 to educate each one — far more than the current level of spending on Catholic schools, but enough to adjust for whatever backdoor transportation funding the public schools are currently providing and for some of the capital costs of space for the influx of new students. The city still saves $406 million.

[wideawake]

A big difference is that most Catholic school teachers are either young women fresh out of college who want to work for a few years before becoming homemakers, women who have gone back to teaching now that their children are school age (often teaching in the same school that their children attend) or homemakers whose children are now grown and who want to make a supplementary income.

Usually there is a husband who is the primary breadwinner.

By contrast, many public school teachers are resolutely single men and women in their thirties who want a guaranteed job for life without putting in too many hours. They are heavily unionized and extremely overpaid.

This may not apply to public school teachers in the American heartland - but it certainly applies to NYC teachers.

[governsleastgovernsbest]

Thanks for a great post. I have forwarded the article to members of our local school board and editors of our local newspaper.

And by the way, in our little burg, per pupil costs average about $13,000 per year, compared to less than $4-6,000 in the NYC Catholic schools!

[Textide]

A big difference is that most Catholic school teachers are either young women fresh out of college who want to work for a few years before becoming homemakers, women who have gone back to teaching now that their children are school age (often teaching in the same school that their children attend) or homemakers whose children are now grown and who want to make a supplementary income.

Don't forget the nuns! My second grade teacher, a nun, was quick with a ruler on the back of one's hand. She also had the superhuman ability to twist an apple in half with her bare hands. Great woman!

[wideawake]

When I was in Catholic grammar school I had approximately thirteen or fourteen teachers over nine years. Only two of them were nuns.

One of them was pretty good.

[Piquaboy]

What a big surprise that the Catholics could do it cheaper. I'll bet that they are not even union people either. Unforgivable!

[Straight Vermonter]

My child will be attending a Catholic High School next year. The teachers there do not fit the mold you have presented. As a matter of fact the majority of teachers there have advanced degrees in the subjects they teach, the teacher retention rate is >90%, and the average teacher has been ther 13 years. According to the schools recruitment materials their teachers make about 80% of what a similar public school teacher would make. They choose to accept the difference in salary because the students are there to learn and the job is more fun and rewarding.

My local high school spends $10,500 per student. I will have to spend $6,300 of my own money so that my child can attend this school. This despite living in the town with the highest property taxes in the state.

[Blue Collar Christian]

A major factor in the effectiveness of Catholic, or other Christian schools, is that the parents of the students in these private schools by and large tend to be more involved in their children's education and upbringing than the average citizen. That leads to better disciplined students that are much less disruptive in class.

And BTW, that voucher idea thankfully failed here in California. If you allow public money to fund private schools, the government will eventually demand a say in the curriculum or the withdrawel of the funds that would then be a vital part of the schools' budgets. Bye bye, bible study, chapel, etc.

[Blue Collar Christian]

I was conviced that nuns had eyes in the back of their heads under their veils. While writing at the chalkboard, they could name the kid goofing off and correct him without even turning around! BIONIC!

[1john2 3and4]

that voucher idea thankfully failed here in California. If you allow public money to fund private schools, the government will eventually demand a say in the curriculum

respectfully, i disagree

maybe im a bit "behind the curve" on this, if so, i readily accept correction, BUT, a voucher lets me keep my money which i then choose to spend anyway i want.

[ResultsNetwork]

You need to look more closely at the numbers... 1st year Public school teachers in Orange County CA make between $35K and $42K, private school teachers around here make about $30K. When you subtract the $3K to $5K EACH public school teacher has to spend on supplies each year because "there's no money" in the public schools, the salaries are almost the same. Put another way, if there are 30 kids in a class and we're spending $8K per kid per year, we should be able to easily afford $50K per year for great teachers.

The question is, where does the other $200K per year per classroom go! ($240K - $40K salary) The only answer is that governments just don't know how to deliver services like education and the ONLY answer is get them out of the business. The only answer is vouchers for every K through 12th grade student. Could you imagine what would happen if we unleashed the private sector on this problem...!

[victim soul]

it's the bureaucra, the liberal death wish, and apathy of parents that is killing the education of our children.

Parental rights to educate their children with their value systems are removed by state mandate especially for those who cannot afford an alternate educational system.

God bless Catholic schools!

[Valin]

And by the way, in our little burg, per pupil costs average about $13,000 per year,

Here in Mpls we'er at $11,000. Now I wouldn't mind spending the money if the kids came out of school knowing something, other than PC.

[Republic If You Can Keep It]

If you allow public money to fund private schools, the government will eventually demand a say in the curriculum

Really?

Are the Feds dictating the curriculum at Notre Dame because of the GI Bill?

Hmmmmmmmm?

[Blue Collar Christian]

I'd like to think it would work that way. If your voucher innitiative goes to ballot and passes, what's to prevent those opposed to our Christian opinions against evolution, safe sex, abortion, etc. from getting to ballot a revocation of this voucher in the future after putting up a killer campaign, happily funded by rich, elite, limosine liberals? The public may be mostly comprised of people that would be simpathetic to the fact that citizens paying property taxes to support public schools are basically paying for their children's education twice, but those same people are not believers, and that will be played against us.

[Blue Collar Christian]

My G.I. bill money is my benefit for serving this country, not public funds. I can even use it for trade school to learn gunsmithing, but you can bet there are people who would like to put an end to that. Also, more impressionable students are those in elementary and high schools where current political correctness can be more solidly installed along with historical revision.

[yankeedame]

Put another way, if there are 30 kids in a class and we're spending $8K per kid per year, we should be able to easily afford $50K per year for great teachers.

Yes, but there's a point where the lure of higher pay just won't do the trick. We all know there are schools out there where no teacher in his right mind-- esp. a quality teacher-- wouldn't teach, even if offered $200K a year.

[1john2 3and4]

what's to prevent ....revocation of this voucher in the future ....?

ummm, the truth?

lol, sorry for being a bit flippant, but that's still not even close to a valid reason for NOT allowing me to keep my own money....fear of future revocation based on some liberal lie/smear campaign....hey! bring it on! just let me choose!

[xkaydet65]

Have you seen that Saint John's Univ in NYC had to drop its Div 3 Football program to keep its athletic department in line with Title IX. The alternative is to lose all fed funds including Pell Grants, student loand, and G.I. Bill.

[Blue Collar Christian]

You go ahead and choose, God bless your cause. I pray you don't have to make the adjustments I believe will come with the public that votes wanting your kids to be taught things their way. They can be just as dedicated to their cause as you are yours.

When the voucher innitiative was on the ballot here, this was the argument used by those opposed; Children will be taught by teachers that are fundamental Christians impressing their belief system on a much larger segment of the public. Maybe here in California I get a distorted impression of the desires of the public, being how liberals grow like weeds here. Believe me, I would like to at least be able to right off my son's tuition like interest on my home loan, and the voucher would be even better. Perhaps I'm tired of seeing the left prevail where we all know it is destroying our country.
I believe that the private schools would cave to the pressure to modify their curriculum rather than give up the funds provided by the vouchers. Perhaps where you live "it will never happen here." If we don't let the public funds into our private schools, the public cannot have a say in our affairs, period.

[henderson field]

This is slightly off the subject of catholic schools, but a couple of years ago there were figures showing that the state of Utah was 4th from the bottom in school expenditures but 4th from the top in test scores, so there must be more to it than just money.

[Willie Green]

Don't forget the nuns! My second grade teacher, a nun, was quick with a ruler on the back of one's hand.

She must've been a novice,
the older ones used yardsticks and went for the rump.
Yardsticks weren't too bad, but heaven help you if they decided to use one of those round, wooden "pointers" that were about the same length. Those suckers hurt.

[Salvation]

Catholic Discussion Ping!

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[Salvation]

**They choose to accept the difference in salary because the students are there to learn and the job is more fun and rewarding.**

This one factor makes a huge difference for any teacher!

[Salvation]

**Are the Feds dictating the curriculum at Notre Dame because of the GI Bill?**

Good analogy.

[Lady In Blue]

Thanks very much for this thread! When I was in grade school and high school in Chicago(many moons ago),only nuns(Sisters of Mercy)taught and back then,they were the greatest group of sisters! God bless them. There was one sister,I remember who while at the blackboard when abruptly turn around when she heard the girls start whispering and giggling.She'd walk down the each row with that long pointer in hand and her long rosary beads swinging on her side belt and believe you me, you could hear a pin drop! Sister Mary Margaret never hit you but she made you BELIEVE THAT SHE WOULD! hehehe!

[SWake]

Are the Feds dictating the curriculum at Notre Dame because of the GI Bill?

About two years ago, a lawsuit was brought by two small seminaries against the state of Texas. These two schools were denied the right to confer undergraduate degrees because they refused to be accredited. They refuse accrediation because they claim it will result in a change of thier chosen curriculum, therefore destroying their academic focus.

So, maybe the Feds won't do it, but some government entity probably will.

[Blue Collar Christian]

Please!

[Blue Collar Christian]

It can happen, especially as our country becomes less and less Christian, that's what I'm talking about.

[ninenot]

In Milwaukee area, teachers earn (after about 5 years) in the upper $30's/low $40's.

What makes the compensation worthwhile is that health insurance is 100% paid and there is almost no deductible/copay required. In addition, the school districts contribute 12% of the teacher's gross income to a pension plan.

And, of course, there's the 6-months vacation/holiday time.

[sneakers]

My second grade teacher - also a nun - was, in my eyes, an angel. I never knew her to wield a ruler. Now, my third grade teacher - not a nun - was the meanest you-know-what you ever saw. She was handier with a handle brush than any nun could ever be! Only attended Catholic school for three years - (1st thru third grade) but it brings back wonderful memories.

[nina0113]

but heaven help you if they decided to use one of those round, wooden "pointers" that were about the same length. Those suckers hurt.

I had a ballet teacher that used one of those:

"You're sickling your ankles!" Whack!

"Tuck in that butt!" Whack!

A pointer to the ankle bone really hurts.

[Cap'n Crunch]

This subject gets me fired up.

In our city the public schools have been in a state of "academic emergency" for at least three years. Only 55% of high schoolers enrolled in the city schools attend.

So, what do the powers that be suggest will fix the problem? Brand new school buildings!

We had another tax increase for the schools. This is one of many tax increases and they keep telling us that everything will be fine with the schools as soon as they get more taxes coming in to fix the problem.

My kids go to catholic school. The building is old and in worse condition than many of the public schools they are going to tear down.

Politics.

[ninenot]

Blue Collar is right; the only question is how long it will take for the State to assert control.

That's more or less the 'good news;' it probably won't happen until your kids are out of the school of your choice.

Why is Blue Collar right?

Think as a taxpayer. For the tax dollar, you expect a certain level of performance, whether measured by ACT, SAT, or any other standard you can name. You also expect accountability: the recipient of your dollars should be able to tell you exactly what your dollar went toward.

Well, in what will be the ONLY time in HISTORY, the States will demand accountability. Of course, in this case, the accountability will be demanded from "voucher schools." (Heavens, not from other State employees!!!!)

Ultimately, the State will wrest control to themselves.

[ninenot]

I, for one, am perfectly willing to bet decent dollars that 75%+ of the public school teachers would do a very good job and be happy as clams with an arrangement similar to the one in the Catholic schools.

The bureaucrats, the State mandates, and the general silliness that public schools throw money away on is just mind-boggling, and the faculty doesn't like it one bit...

[ninenot]

Not quite.

But they are dictating the sports program's priorities.

There's another thread somewhere regarding the "women's participation" requirement forced on schools which accept ANY KIND of Federal dollars.

By the way, Notre Dame is not all that Catholic, either. Any school which sponsors "The Vagina Monologues" is simply NOT a Catholic school.

[ninenot]

In my High School, the Jesuits used a sawed-off golf driver. THEN they made you bend over and hold your ankles while they applied it.

When that broke, they fashioned a paddle about 8" wide, and drilled holes in it to decrease wind resistance.

[1john2 3and4]

If we don't let the public funds into our private schools

my money! NOT public funds. that's the crucial element...so, i demand accountability, ok, the gov. has no business here. theyre out of the loop.

i do grant your point that govt will seek to regulate, co-opt, interfere, and propagandize. theyre becoming quite efficient indeed. BUT with vouchers, what USED TO BE public money is now the original owner's (of that money). it is NOT public money, therefore not subject to the same control. (somethin smells fishy when you keep opposing vouchers based on an erroneous premise)

[thedilg]

Are the Feds dictating the curriculum at Notre Dame because of the GI Bill?

Exactly! you can expand that to 10's of thousands of schools after WW II. This even included semenaries.

Of course the money went to the students not the schools.
It was the students that supported or withdrew from a curriculum, not the government. Precisely the same is true of vouchers.

Godspeed, The Dilg

[Salvation]

**My kids go to catholic school. The building is old and in worse condition than many of the public schools they are going to tear down.**

Aand I daresay their education is much improved over the public school system. Another point of view -- parochial and private school kids are there to learn, not play, socialize, learn about the opposite sex, dance, play football and basketball (although some Catholic schools have excellent teams) or date.

They are there to learn........and their parents keep tabs on them because the parents pay and are invovled in one way or another.

And the most important factor of all.........these kids pray!

[ninenot]

BUT with vouchers, what USED TO BE public money is now the original owner's (of that money).

Not true.

Unless they earned one Hell of a lotta money, the voucher recipient did NOT pay taxes equal to the voucher amount.

As a matter of fact, only one of three taxpayers actually has children in school (K-12.) The other 2/3rds subsidize that education.

A voucher is a GREAT BIG CHECK written by the State to a parent so that parent can choose the school his children attend.

But it is NOT the money of the voucher recipient, NOR is it money that the recipient "earned."

Having said that, I still prefer the voucher system.

[Blue Collar Christian]

No fish here. I just paid $5 to park at a public beach for my buddy's wedding. Oh, yeah, that's my beach. I'm the public. My single buddy has no children. He pays property taxes too. Can he have a voucher to use that money to perhaps get his PH FReepin D? The point is, you don't get taxed differently than the guy that has no kids in school. We all pay taxes so that the kids in this country get a basic education. Here's the fish that I think you smell; you are all for the tax payers giving you a voucher to put your child in a superior school system, instead of you putting the bucks together to manage it yourself, which would, in all fairness, be available to everybody now, thus making these "private schools" the primary souce of education for a much larger portion of our society and then you expect the atheists, agnostics, homosexuals, new age believers, devil worshippers, selfish don't care about no one elsers, and their simpathizers, who have now put their kids in your Catholic or other Christian school to leave well enough alone. That rotting fish is your own selfish desire for a first class ticket with a coach budget. You need to find a way to put together the kind of money it takes to put your kids through the private school without ever giving the general public, or special interest groups, i.e. the government say in your curriculum. This is still somewhat of a free country, opportunity knocks.

[1john2 3and4]

you are all for the tax payers giving you a voucher

let's see, allowing me to keep my own money is, in your example, taxpayers giving me something? that fallacy keeps creeping in to your points.

We all pay taxes so that the kids in this country get a basic education.

and what a great job the liberals are doing, huh?

My single buddy has no children. He pays property taxes too.

because you value public, gubmint edukashun, he's paying for your kid! lol! (remember, i'm using my money-not his or yours-for my kid).

Can he have a voucher to use that money (oops! remember now, his money)to perhaps get his PH FReepin D?

hmmmmmm, not a bad idea!

That rotting fish is your own selfish desire for a first class ticket with a coach budget.

if wanting to lower taxes to keep more of my money brands me as selfish, then im guilty, otherwise, please refrain from personal attacks.

[1john2 3and4]

This even included semenaries.

am i the only one that laughed at that rather timely mis-spelling?

[Piquaboy]

My time spent in Catholic grade school resulted in very long ears and bruised knuckles along with a whole lot of learning. Those Nun's did not take any lip.

[Blue Collar Christian]

What you want(and I like the idea) is a total revamp of the education system. I would like to pay no taxes for education and be responsible for any education I feel is needed or desired for my family, or whomever I feel compelled to aid. I feel the same way about charity being a personal responsibility instead of our unaccountable welfare system where feel good politicians want to help everybody out with your and my money. In both cases, how we spend our own money for education and charity would be so much more closely monitored because of our true interest in the effectiveness of our spending, and the government would have no say ever in how we are spending our money or educating our children. Believe me, I am not happy with the effectiveness of government spending on ANY issue. The less taxes you and I pay, and the smaller we can make the government, the better. If the voucher system goes into affect and causes a reduction of taxes and a shrinking of government, you can tell me "I told you so" and I'll eat humble pie. If it does not work, let's start a bill to remove the government from schools completely. I'll help, and I won't rub anything in your face.

P.S. I didn't mean any personal attack, I'm sorry.

[1john2 3and4]

apology accepted, we all get carried away at times (my "weak" point is laughing at some of the off-color hilarity that pops up on these threads quite regularly).

i dont want to re-vamp the system, really, it'll die anyway, IF we ever get real freedom of choice.

[NYer]

Don't forget the nuns! My second grade teacher, a nun, was quick with a ruler on the back of one's hand. She also had the superhuman ability to twist an apple in half with her bare hands. Great woman!

ROFLMAO!!! Those were the days. My HS Biology Teacher, a layperson, never showed up for classes, so they dragged a nun out of retirement. When we reached the chapter on Human Reproduction, she covered it all by saying: "A boy reaches puberty when he begins to grown peach fuzz on his face. Now turn to Chapter 6." Amazingly, most everyone educated by the nuns in my "baby boom" generation, can spell faultlessly and has an excellent command of English grammar. We can find states and countries on maps and follow directions. My catholic elementary school class size was 60. Sister kept everyone in their seat. Those nuns taught for God, not a paycheck.

Today, there are few, if any nuns still teaching. As someone else pointed out, catholic schools attract recent college graduates who need the experience. Oftentimes, their inexperience can lead to bigger problems.

[Blue Collar Christian]

This website is still a nice place to go though, eh?

[Jonx6]

ping