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'Aztlan': A Warped Vision Of History
Sierra Times ^ | 12-30-02 | Jack Ward

Posted on 01/01/2003 8:51:58 AM PST by SJackson

As the US began to grow, immigrants started flowing into this new land of opportunity. Immigrants from Europe and Asia made up the majority of the newcomers. Thousands of miles of ocean separated the newcomers from their old homeland. The remoteness from their roots made it a little easier to ‘cut the ties’ from the homeland and assimilate into a new ‘American’ culture. For the last several decades immigration (illegal and legal) from Mexico has increased significantly and is now a major source of immigrants. But the closeness of Mexico made the acceptance of the American culture a lower priority than in the past. In many cases crossing the US–Mexican border is as easy as moving from state to state. In less than a days drive, someone can leave anywhere in the southwest and be in Mexico. The closeness of ones homeland makes acceptance of their new homeland less critical.

Most of those that emigrated from Mexico became naturalized US citizens and have become productive citizens. Unfortunately, some embittered intellectuals (on both sides of the border) have advocated that most of the southwest US belongs to Mexico. As a result they also believe that there should be no border control between Mexico and the US. Their rantings have convinced many that the southwest US belongs to Mexico. This view is reflected in a recent Zogby poll. The poll revealed that 58% of Mexicans believe that the southwest US belongs to Mexico. That probably explains why 60% of Mexicans also believe there should be no border control.

One of the promoters of this idea is Professor Charles Truxillo, instructor of Chicano studies at the University of New Mexico (UNM) and self-described disciple of Chicano-Marxist terrorist Reies Lopez Tijerina. Tijerina and his terrorist group have been advocating retaking the southwest since the mid 60’s. In June 1967, Tijerina led his gang in an assault on the courthouse in Tierra Amarilla, New Mexico. During the attack he proved that his violence was non- discriminatory. They shot fellow Mexican- American jailer Eugolio Salazar in the face, pistol whipped fellow Mexican-American Undersheriff Dan Rivera, and killed fellow Mexican-American Deputy Sheriff Nicainor Saizan. The gang also took 20 local citizens hostage in the courthouse before fleeing town.

Tijerina claims that this new territory is the ‘Nation of Aztlan’ and includes California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, plus the southern part of Colorado. Tijerina declared "exclusive and supreme" powers "within our territorial jurisdiction, over all persons and property situated therein, to the exclusion of all other countries and governments."

It is disturbing that educators like Charles Truxillo look to anarchists like Tijerina for moral leadership and historical vision. As a result of this warped sense of morals and history, educators like Charles Truxillo, advocate that the area from the Pacific to the Gulf of Mexico belongs to Mexico.

Truxillo and educators of his ilk are performing a disservice to their students by distorting history, preaching hate, and inciting violence. The curriculum sounds frighteningly like the message Muslim Clerics preach at their Madrassas. Truxillo maintains that the new country should be created 'by any means necessary'. And after the 1995 Latino Summit representatives of the "Brown Berets de Aztlan," a Chicano paramilitary group, has threatened to "make the streets run red" with their opponent's blood.

This militant rhetoric isn’t restricted to Tijerina, or the "Brown Berets de Aztlan”. The Aztlan movement is supported by high profile militant separatist groups that are active on high school and university campuses. MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan) and La Raza (the Race) are just two of such groups.

Miguel Perez of Cal State-Northridge's MEChA chapter said, "The ultimate ideology is the liberation of Aztlan. Communism would be closest [to it]. Once Aztlan is established, ethnic cleansing would commence: Non-Chicanos would have to be expelled … opposition groups would be quashed because you have to keep power." It sounds like the advocates of Aztlan preach the same philosophy advocated by Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaeda buddies.

It should be no surprise that the area in dispute was spelled out in the 1848 Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo which ended the US – Mexican War. In the treaty, Mexico relinquished control of the area in exchange for $15 million plus the US assumed millions of dollars of Mexico’s debt. But the believers in Aztlan want to rewrite history and void the treaty.

The Aztlan agitators claim the US stole the area have forgot that in 1848 Mexico exercised very little control over the area, that less than 1% of Mexico’s population was in the area, and no valuable minerals had been discovered.

Astute geopolitical observers have suggested that it may have been better for all concerned (US and Mexico) if at the end of the war the US had seized all of Mexico. No one can deny that the territory in question has prospered during the 154 years it has been under U.S. free market philosophy while poverty still exists south of the border.

Without the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo the US southwest might still look like Tijuana. Disbelievers need only walk across the border between San Diego and Tijuana to see the stark contrast.

The agitators call themselves the "Bronze People" and claim Aztlan is theirs. They have stated, "Aztlan belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops, and not to the foreign Europeans". I’m afraid that these misguided agitators have forgotten the strong cultural, religious, and ethnic influence that France and Spain (both European countries) have had on Mexico. Aztlan supporters should also abandon Spanish (a European language) and adopt Aztec or Mayan as the new language of Aztlan.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs
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1 posted on 01/01/2003 8:51:58 AM PST by SJackson
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To: SJackson
Either we'll take control of our borders or the US will end.
2 posted on 01/01/2003 9:03:21 AM PST by pabianice
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To: SJackson
I don't blame Mexico for taking everything we're willing to give them - and apparently we're willing to give them quite a bit.

(I do, however, blame those in America who are doing the "giving".)

3 posted on 01/01/2003 9:06:12 AM PST by The Duke
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To: SJackson
The agitators call themselves the "Bronze People" and claim Aztlan is theirs.

And that's exactly the age we'll end up in if this happens.

4 posted on 01/01/2003 9:06:18 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: SJackson
Ahem.

If prior occupancy establishes title, surely the land belongs to the descendants of the various Indian tribes, not to those of the Spanish/Mexican invaders.

5 posted on 01/01/2003 9:09:22 AM PST by Restorer
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To: SJackson
It is sick that we employee such agitators in our state funded universities.
6 posted on 01/01/2003 9:19:19 AM PST by Pukka Puck
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To: SJackson
Unfortunately, some embittered intellectuals (on both sides of the border) have advocated that most of the southwest US belongs to Mexico.

-------------------

The area originally belonged to nobody. Hernando Cortez claimed an entire area including what is now Mexico and land nearly to Canada for Spain without ever seeing most of it or even knowing where it was. In the early 1800s the people of Mexico refused to accept Cortez's claims and expelled the Spanish. By result of inheritance of Cortez's claims, Mexico assumed ownership of nearly half of What is now the Western United States. Americans didn't accept Cortez's claims either and freed itself from Mexico.

7 posted on 01/01/2003 9:19:25 AM PST by RLK
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To: RLK
Fewer than 500,000 inhabitants occupied what's now Aztlan, by the way. Admittedly though, we'd not tolerate someone's taking over Alaska (which has a similarly small population) but the difference is that we can DEFEND the territory from invasion.
8 posted on 01/01/2003 9:44:08 AM PST by End The Hypocrisy
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To: Restorer
The Aztecs probably don't have much of a claim as they nabbed Mexico from other indigenous tribes which had already declined, such as the Mayans, Toltecs and Teotihuacanis (all supposedly preceded by the Olmecs). It's noteworthy how Mexican historians fizzle when one mentions this in response to their claims that they still own Aztlan. Mexico knows nothing other than conquests.
9 posted on 01/01/2003 9:46:05 AM PST by End The Hypocrisy
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To: Restorer
Ummmmm, the "Spanish/Mexcan invaders" as you put it ARE largely of Indian blood, but don't let the facts get in the way of your fantasies. If those coming in were pure-blooded Spaniards, a lot of your buds on this issue would not be half as concerned. "Atzlan" is a useful fantasy for leftist scum in professorial positions and for the "Racist-American community" (a small slice of our fellow citizens) and for certain portions of the "Gullible-American" community who want to slam the borders shut at any cost to ensure an America which "looks like them" but the immigration will continue and you know it will continue. The USA is simply a far better place to live and to give a family a future than is Mexico, which, until Fox's election was ruled for 70+ years by a gang of communist cutthroats and murderers and election fixers known as the Institutional Revolutionary Party.

Unlike "Atzlan", that is no fantasy. We (the US) are keeping California, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas (they'll NEVER take Texas!) and all other territory aquired from Mexico BUT we are expanding the rich tapestry of the American people by adding a healthy influx from South of the Border of folks more likely than those at La Jolla, CA, or Darien, CT, to be socially conservative. When Roe vs. Wade is gone, check with the rest of us again. Until then, progress in that direction will continue apace. This will also dash the hopes of the more fashionable for gay marriages and whatnot. Tooooooooooo bad!

10 posted on 01/01/2003 9:46:39 AM PST by BlackElk
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To: Pukka Puck
If this is the worst problem with taxpayer-funded university and college idiocy in this day and age, you need a time out to diversify your concerns. How about Marxism? "Diversity education?" Political Correctness? Outright persecution of any conservative ideas whatsoever? Anti-Semitism? Mandatory readings of the Koran? Etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam.
11 posted on 01/01/2003 9:50:20 AM PST by BlackElk
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To: BlackElk
the "Spanish/Mexcan invaders" as you put it ARE largely of Indian blood, but don't let the facts get in the way of your fantasies.

Most of those who originally conquered their way up into what is now the American SW, certainly their leaders, were of pure Spanish blood.

I used to live in northern NM, and (at least at the time) one of the best ways to get your clock cleaned was to refer to as "Mexican" one of the Hispanic locals who had been living in the area for centuries. They were "Spanish", and don't you forget it!

I have no idea if this distinction still remains in force in the area.

BTW, I have no fantasies about this. I just think it odd that a group would claim title to an area based on a conquest in the 1600s while denying all validity to a conquest in the 1800s.

Are titles based on conquest valid or not? If not, how does the earlier conquest confer title? If conquest does confer title, why would the later conquest not be as valid as the earlier one?

Of course, if you go back far enough, ALL titles are based on conquest.

12 posted on 01/01/2003 9:58:14 AM PST by Restorer
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To: SJackson
Miguel Perez of Cal State-Northridge's MEChA chapter said, "The ultimate ideology is the liberation of Aztlan. Communism would be closest [to it]. Once Aztlan is established, ethnic cleansing would commence: Non-Chicanos would have to be expelled … opposition groups would be quashed because you have to keep power." It sounds like the advocates of Aztlan preach the same philosophy advocated by Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaeda buddies.

This is a clear and concise statement of the Nazi Party proram in the late 1930's and early 1940's. In a way it is kind of nice to have a group of these slimeballs actually admitting to their program.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

13 posted on 01/01/2003 10:00:30 AM PST by harpseal
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To: SJackson
Aztecs were butchers
14 posted on 01/01/2003 10:01:09 AM PST by Porterville
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To: End The Hypocrisy
The Aztecs probably don't have much of a claim as they nabbed Mexico from other indigenous tribes which had already declined, such as the Mayans, Toltecs and Teotihuacanis (all supposedly preceded by the Olmecs).

True. Also, the Aztecs did not control anything close to even all of what is now Mexico. Most of the areas they did control were not a true empire, but were rather in the nature of tributary independent states. Much as most of eastern and southeastern Asia was to China for many centuries.

15 posted on 01/01/2003 10:01:39 AM PST by Restorer
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To: RLK
Lest we forget the Treaty of Guadelupe HIdalgo, Mexico gave up ANY territorial claim to the area the US wanted in exchange for a huge ammount of GOLD. Mexico accepted the offer.
The US then purchased another smaller section from Mexico called the Gadsen Purchase(Probably misspelled).
Mexico has NO claim to any land north of the Rio Grande or the western boundary line between Az, Cal, and Mexico.
16 posted on 01/01/2003 10:07:30 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: End The Hypocrisy
Fewer than 500,000 inhabitants occupied what's now Aztlan, by the way.

----------------------------------

Most of the area was uninhabitable. Before Siegel developed Las Vegas, the population there was something like 25. There was a natural desert barrier between Southern Mexico and what is now the U. S. which prohibited movement of people into so-called Aztlan. If you get a map of Mexico today you will see entire areas the size of Rhode Island in the Northern half of the country in which there are still no roads because there are no cities nor anything else there. The areas are something like an old Clint Eastwood movie where he rides his horse into a place where there are 15 people, 45 chickens, and two goats.

17 posted on 01/01/2003 10:09:45 AM PST by RLK
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To: SJackson
If we don't close the borders and kick these illegals out, we'll be facing an armed terrorist movement within a decade. The resulting Civil War will probably end the Republic and may be even the United States as a whole.
18 posted on 01/01/2003 10:18:19 AM PST by Sparta
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To: Sparta
OK. Here's what we do. Everybody living in the proposed 'Aztlan' belt go out and get yourself four Mexicans. Put 'em down in a tornado shelter or up in the attic, feed 'em well until they they cough up next-of-kin back in Mexico.

Then we do a sort of reverse underground railroad run with our chicken trucks, take 'em back and show 'em that while they were killing themselves masoning and landscaping here, NAFTA has made kingpins of their homeys back in the homeland.

We may have to 'sponsor' two families/yr travel, but I'm telling you this will work.

19 posted on 01/01/2003 10:30:26 AM PST by txhurl
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To: Sparta
I have a better idea: rather than cede the Southwest U.S. to Mexico, why don't we offer the Northern tier of Mexican provinces admission to the U.S. as states. Offer to hold a plebicite and see, if given the chance, whether more Mexicans want to become part of el Norte instead of the other way around.
20 posted on 01/01/2003 10:40:15 AM PST by PUGACHEV
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To: PUGACHEV; Willie Green
I like it. We'll take control of Mexico's oil reserves and all of that country's manfacturing. I think even Willie Green will like it.
21 posted on 01/01/2003 10:43:35 AM PST by Sparta
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To: BlackElk; Sparta
"Atzlan" is a useful fantasy for leftist scum in professorial positions and for the "Racist-American community" (a small slice of our fellow citizens) and for certain portions of the "Gullible-American" community who want to slam the borders shut…BUT we are expanding the rich tapestry of the American people by adding a healthy influx from South of the Border of folks more likely than those at La Jolla, CA, or Darien, CT, to be socially conservative.

I agree with you completely about the benefits of immigration to America. But “Aztlan”It’s is a potentially dangerous fantasy, since it prevents the beneficial assimilation which you’re speaking of.

BTW, we have a park up in Wisconsin, Aztalan State Park the site of a Mississipian village thought to be related to the Aztecs.

Guess Wisconsin goes too. Madison would agree. ;>)

There was pressure on Polk to annex Mexico, and I believe a bill which passed the Senate, which was defeated in the House (too many new slave states), providing for annexation. Maybe some of the FR historians can help me on the facts of the legislation.

Would have been a very different continent.

22 posted on 01/01/2003 11:07:55 AM PST by SJackson
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To: SJackson
"Without the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo the US southwest might still look like Tijuana. Disbelievers need only walk across the border between San Diego and Tijuana to see the stark contrast."

Disbelievers need only to stroll through downtown LA.

As far as #10's comment about "adding to the tapestry...", give me your address and I'll see if the gang over at Home Deport wants to add to the scenery in your backyard.

(Yes, I know it's Home Depot, and, no, I don't consider myself to be part of any 'racist community')

23 posted on 01/01/2003 11:09:22 AM PST by norton
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To: SJackson
The Mexican immigrants would be populists. Populism is just another fancy word for fascism. The Aztlan bunch aren't just Commies, they're certified fascists.

24 posted on 01/01/2003 11:14:41 AM PST by Sparta
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To: SJackson
http://aztlan.net/

The Reconquista's main rag. Note all the anti-Semetic crap and all the outright lies in it.
25 posted on 01/01/2003 11:17:34 AM PST by Sparta
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To: Tijeras_Slim
Ha; Bronze Age would be an improvement. Their much vaunted "Atzlan" was in the neolithic period, at best.
26 posted on 01/01/2003 11:18:04 AM PST by Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
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To: Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
You got me.
27 posted on 01/01/2003 11:19:16 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: BlackElk
You are delusional. These "socially conservative" invaders are going to vote Democrat; they are going to vote themselves a handout, just like everyone else. They aren't going to waste time trying to repeal Roe v. Wade or fight gay marriages. They are here for the great American gravy train, and for no other reason. Their presence here will push American politics further to the left, and will destabilize our political system for generations to come, assuming it survives at all.
28 posted on 01/01/2003 11:22:52 AM PST by Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
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To: Sparta
The Mexican immigrants would be populists. Populism is just another fancy word for fascism. The Aztlan bunch aren't just Commies, they're certified fascists.

I was referring to immigration (controled) from Mexico, not the Aztlan movement, which other freepers have assured me in the past is a small minority (honest ;>)).

Of course I love the Pali belt in their emblem.

===========================

===========================

They keep good company!!

And who wouldn't like their flyers?

===========================

They don't represent all Mexicans, but Aztlan isn't talking assimilation.

El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan

In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal "gringo" invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny.

We are free and sovereign to determine those tasks which are justly called for by our house, our land, the sweat of our brows, and by our hearts. Aztlan belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. We do not recognize capricious frontiers on the bronze continent

Brotherhood unites us, and love for our brothers makes us a people whose time has come and who struggles against the foreigner "gabacho" who exploits our riches and destroys our culture. With our heart in our hands and our hands in the soil, we declare the independence of our mestizo nation. We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlan.

For La Raza to do. Fuera de La Raza nada.

Program

El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan sets the theme that the Chicanos (La Raza de Bronze) must use their nationalism as the key or common denominator for mass mobilization and organization. Once we are committed to the idea and philosophy of El Plan de Aztlan, we can only conclude that social, economic, cultural, and political independence is the only road to total liberation from oppression, exploitation, and racism. Our struggle then must be for the control of our barrios, campos, pueblos, lands, our economy, our culture, and our political life. El Plan commits all levels of Chicano society - the barrio, the campo, the ranchero, the writer, the teacher, the worker, the professional - to La Causa.

Nationalism

Nationalism as the key to organization transcends all religious, political, class, and economic factions or boundaries. Nationalism is the common denominator that all members of La Raza can agree upon.

Organizational Goals

1. UNITY in the thinking of our people concerning the barrios, the pueblo, the campo, the land, the poor, the middle class, the professional-all committed to the liberation of La Raza.

2. ECONOMY: economic control of our lives and our communities can only come about by driving the exploiter out of our communities, our pueblos, and our lands and by controlling and developing our own talents, sweat, and resources. Cultural background and values which ignore materialism and embrace humanism will contribute to the act of cooperative buying and the distribution of resources and production to sustain an economic base for healthy growth and development Lands rightfully ours will be fought for and defended. Land and realty ownership will be acquired by the community for the people's welfare. Economic ties of responsibility must be secured by nationalism and the Chicano defense units.

3. EDUCATION must be relative to our people, i.e., history, culture, bilingual education, contributions, etc. Community control of our schools, our teachers, our administrators, our counselors, and our programs.

4. INSTITUTIONS shall serve our people by providing the service necessary for a full life and their welfare on the basis of restitution, not handouts or beggar's crumbs. Restitution for past economic slavery, political exploitation, ethnic and cultural psychological destruction and denial of civil and human rights. Institutions in our community which do not serve the people have no place in the community. The institutions belong to the people.

5. SELF-DEFENSE of the community must rely on the combined strength of the people. The front line defense will come from the barrios, the camp os, the pueblos, and the ranchitos. Their involvement as protectors of their people will be given respect and dignity. They in turn offer their responsibility and their lives for their people. Those who place themselves in the front ranks for their people do so out of love and carnalismo. Those institutions which are fattened by our brothers to provide employment and political pork barrels for the gringo will do so only as acts of liberation and for La Causa. For the very young there will no longer be acts of juvenile delinquency, but revolutionary acts.

6. CULTURAL values of our people strengthen our identity and the moral backbone of the movement. Our culture unites and educates the family of La Raza towards liberation with one heart and one mind. We must insure that our writers, poets, musicians, and artists produce literature and art that is appealing to our people and relates to our revolutionary culture. Our cultural values of life, family, and home will serve as a powerful weapon to defeat the gringo dollar value system and encourage the process of love and brotherhood.

7. POLITICAL LIBERATION can only come through indepen-dent action on our part, since the two-party system is the same animal with two heads that feed from the same trough. Where we are a majority, we will control; where we are a minority, we will represent a pressure group; nationally, we will represent one party: La Familia de La Raza!

Action

1. Awareness and distribution of El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan. Presented at every meeting, demonstration, confrontation, courthouse, institution, administration, church, school, tree, building, car, and every place of human existence.

2. September 16, on the birthdate of Mexican Independence, a national walk-out by all Chicanos of all colleges and schools to be sustained until the complete revision of the educational system: its policy makers, administration, its curriculum, and its personnel to meet the needs of our community.

3. Self-Defense against the occupying forces of the oppressors at every school, every available man, woman, and child.

4. Community nationalization and organization of all Chicanos: El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan.

5. Economic program to drive the exploiter out of our community and a welding together of our people's combined resources to control their own production through cooperative effort.

6. Creation of an independent local, regional, and national political party.

A nation autonomous and free - culturally, socially, economically, and politically- will make its own decisions on the usage of our lands, the taxation of our goods, the utilization of our bodies for war, the determination of justice (reward and punishment), and the profit of our sweat.

El Plan de Aztlan is the plan of liberation!

29 posted on 01/01/2003 11:56:20 AM PST by SJackson
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To: SJackson
Shi*t! This is what La Raza is about? I thought they were a grape-pickers' union!!!
30 posted on 01/01/2003 12:06:54 PM PST by txhurl
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To: Sparta
Did you notice they replaced the American flag in the Iwo Jima picture with the Mexican flag? In the left column of the site (where else?).
31 posted on 01/01/2003 12:10:24 PM PST by profmike23
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To: BlackElk
"we are expanding the rich tapestry of the American people by adding a healthy influx from South of the Border "

We were getting a rich tapestry, now we are just getting rateros, rat people, with 7th grade educations at best. I live in the southwest, I helped start a spanish TV station, and what is coming up here now are mostly bums.

32 posted on 01/01/2003 12:21:51 PM PST by FastCoyote
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To: Porterville
Yes they were. In fact, when the Spanish came to destroy the Aztec empire, didn't many of the local Indians greet and support the Spaniards as liberators?
33 posted on 01/01/2003 1:13:53 PM PST by Jacob Kell
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To: harpseal
Miguel Perez of Cal State-Northridge's MEChA chapter said, "The ultimate ideology is the liberation of Aztlan. Communism would be closest [to it]. Once Aztlan is established, ethnic cleansing would commence: Non-Chicanos would have to be expelled … opposition groups would be quashed because you have to keep power."

At least the so.b. is honest about what he want. Say what you want about communism, at least it's an equal-opportunity represive totalitarian system-it enslaves everyone equally. All the is needed is for one of those punks to start an "Aztlan Liberation Army", and try to turn the southwest into another Kosovo.
34 posted on 01/01/2003 1:16:29 PM PST by Jacob Kell
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To: txflake
Yep, that's La Raza! So long as California and Los Angeles in particular are a huge part of the US economy, La Raza won't win. We have BIGGER guns than THEY have!
35 posted on 01/01/2003 1:40:08 PM PST by buffyt
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To: RLK
The areas are something like an old Clint Eastwood movie where he rides his horse into a place where there are 15 people, 45 chickens, and two goats.

I heard this joke in Mexico in the 80's: "Mexicans don't care that the Gringos stole half their country - what pisses them off is that they stole the half with good roads."

How many of the 60-70 million Americans/Mexicans/Asian immigrants want to be citizens of the Republic of Mexico - or the new and improved Republic of Aztlan?

36 posted on 01/01/2003 1:51:11 PM PST by Tis The Time''s Plague
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To: profmike23
Did you notice they replaced the American flag in the Iwo Jima picture with the Mexican flag? I hope this will make you feel better, professor.
37 posted on 01/01/2003 2:15:43 PM PST by Sparta
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To: Jacob Kell
And while Professor Perez is running his ethnic cleansing of Anglos, the American military will be doing what? Don't you feel even slightly gullible? Or wildly unrealistic?
38 posted on 01/01/2003 4:26:45 PM PST by BlackElk
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To: Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
You want to restrain all that optimism of yours!
39 posted on 01/01/2003 4:27:51 PM PST by BlackElk
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To: Sparta
Maybe you can give us a short synopsis of the remarkable blend of fascism and communism which you, who also have no use for Francisco Franco, perceive in Mexicans? Pay particular attention to the definitions of those terms and how the two ideologies blend together as one despite the diferences noticed by most folks throughout the last century. For up to 20 points of extra credit, explain rationally why this Atzlan delusion has the remotest chance of becoming a governing and ethnic cleansing reality in the states formerly claimed by Mexico.
40 posted on 01/01/2003 4:33:54 PM PST by BlackElk
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To: Restorer
You can bet that the groups titillating the gullible- American community with yak about Atzlan are not pure Spaniards. See the photo posted on this thread.

The way that Spanish law worked during its colonial period contradicts your Spanish friends and they probably know it. Queen Isabella of Spain was a green-eyed, red-haired Castilian of Celtic ancestry. If her brother moved to Mexico and married in Mexico, whether he married an unrelated lady as green-eyed, red-haired and Celtic/Castilian as his sister and brought in from Spain for the occasion or married Montezuma's daughter, both he and his wife became Mexican in nationality and ONLY Mexican by that marriage in Mexico.

Whether by revolution (Texas), or conquest, or purchase, the US ownership of each and every state in question is complete as any "Atzlan" Liberation Front will find out in short order to its collective detriment with extreme prejudice if they would like to contest the question.

41 posted on 01/01/2003 4:44:22 PM PST by BlackElk
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To: BlackElk
Took my comments out of context. I was merely pointing out that the Mexicans were populists (socially conservative, economically liberal) which is nearly identical to many fascist leaders beliefs. I'm from Louisiana where we actually elect these populist losers to state office. Also, Communists are athiests. Most Mexican immigrants, illegal and legal, are devout Catholics which knocks them out of the Communist category. Which leads most fascist and communist governments to blend as one is control of a person's money, the presence of a police state, and the overall control by a person or group of unelected and unaccountable people. Example: Red China.

As for the Aztlan reconquest, I don't know if it will succeed or not, but if we don't seal the borders and take other measures to assimilate the immigrants already here, we'll have much increased tension which may lead to Civil War. Once the shots are fired in that Civil War, who knows.
42 posted on 01/01/2003 4:53:35 PM PST by Sparta
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To: Sparta
That webmaster logo on their web site looks a lot like the old FRITO BANDITO!
Oh, I'm showing my age!
43 posted on 01/01/2003 4:53:56 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: BlackElk
. In the future it is possible that the difference between Communists in power - Marxist-Leninists - and fascists will be considered unimportant. A new category - Classic 20th century Dictatorship - may be used instead. Both types of dictatorship had secret police and prison camps, prevented free elections, controlled the press, had no respect for law. Both were totalitarian . The only difference was in the freedom given to the aristocracy and owners of industry by the fascists; whereas the communists tended to nationalize industry and land. Nazis tended to run industry better, but used slave labor (so did Stalin), which in the long run would produce the same results as the Communists - shoddy goods. There is a historians' dispute about whether Hitler was knowingly imitating Stalin in his methods, that is whether Stalin's role was to enlarge the scope of what a nasty dictatorship could do. This is something which can't be proved. The danger is that neo-fascists may use such an argument to pretend that Hitler was not responsible for his actions: "Stalin made me do it!"

___________________________________________________________

An interesting comparison between the two.

http://www.angelfire.com/mac/egmatthews/worldinfo/glossary/fascist.html

The website I got this from.

I'll back with some more.
44 posted on 01/01/2003 5:01:26 PM PST by Sparta
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To: BlackElk
Another thing that may be of interest to you.

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/debates/history.html
45 posted on 01/01/2003 5:14:58 PM PST by Sparta
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To: BlackElk
I cannot disagree with you.

I just think it really odd that such a purportedly leftist group uses the old blood and soil rationales of fascism.
46 posted on 01/01/2003 6:43:54 PM PST by Restorer
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To: Jacob Kell
Yep, the Aztecs enslaved their prisoners in cages and fattened them up for sacrifice. A few years before Columbus they had a several year celebration where they sacrificed several 10's of thousands of local tribes men. When Cortez arrived tribes along the coast of Veracruz and the Talascan regions joined his meager group of 500 soldiers and conquered an evil empire. Before the march inland to Tenochtitlan he burnt the ships so none of the Spanish soldiers could flee. In for a penny in for a pound. As a Hispanic I am insulted by these blood thirsty, Latin neo-fascist who stand up for the Aztecs, it is equivalent to standing up for the Nazis.
47 posted on 01/01/2003 7:02:39 PM PST by Porterville
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To: SJackson

 

48 posted on 01/01/2003 7:18:39 PM PST by dennisw
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To: SJackson
readlaterbump.
49 posted on 01/01/2003 8:23:48 PM PST by AdA$tra
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To: BlackElk
For up to 20 points of extra credit, explain rationally why this Atzlan delusion has the remotest chance of becoming a governing and ethnic cleansing reality in the states formerly claimed by Mexico.

----------------------------

The idea is not to bring the states in question under solitary Mexican rule. The idea is to make them de facto Mexican states while not relinquishing access to U. S. Federal programs. Given the political clout by the population of the states and the access to federal entitlements the U. S. will finance an invasion here and support of Mexico below the border until the two countries are merged with the approval of Bush and Fox.

50 posted on 01/01/2003 8:44:35 PM PST by RLK
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