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High-Priced Emancipation [Book Review: Why There Are No Good Men Left]
The Wall Street Journal ^ | Friday, January 3, 2002 | MEGHAN COX GURDON

Posted on 01/03/2003 7:50:23 AM PST by TroutStalker

Edited on 04/22/2004 11:47:49 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Anyone who has ever struggled to find a house to buy should intuitively understand the difficulties faced by the legions of accomplished, educated, 30ish women currently roaming society in search of a husband. They are the stuff of mass entertainment now, these handsome, quick-witted graduates of higher education. On TV, they're the saucy females of "Sex and the City" and "Will & Grace." They surface in fiction as lovelorn Bridget Jones and the hapless heroines of Pam Houston's best-selling short stories.


(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS:
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To: 2banana
If someone has already made this point, I apologize for the redundancy. But males who go to college expect to graduate, have a career and a spouse at the same time. The females graduate and expect only the career first, then later to have a spouse. The men, darn them anyway, don't want to wait around for the females to turn 30. They get married, as nature intended, while they are young and strong enough to bear the burdens of work and family. No one told the career minded females that they would likely miss the marriage boat if they put career first and marriage and family second. They are going to have to want both, or settle for the leftovers.

The pattern seems to hold true though, with a family I know. There are four children. The oldest son graduated and got a law degree, he got married, to another professional, and she is expecting. The next child, a daughter, got a degree, and a job, but she has a boyfriend, and at this time, there is no serious talk of marriage. The third child, a male, got a degree, got a job, and is engaged. The fourth child, a male, is still in school. I am betting that soon after he graduates, there will be a woman and an engagement. Kind of illuminating.

101 posted on 01/03/2003 3:39:35 PM PST by Enterprise
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To: Enterprise
There is a difference between starting a career and taking a break from an established one. The women this subject discusses try to do the latter because the former requires both the care of very young children and a major time investment in early career building. I.e., the problem is the time needs of mothering very young children.

Few fathers are willing to invest the time in care of very young children and fewer are any good at it. Mothers are better at it due to biology, which likewise makes it almost impossible for them to not spend the time with their children that the children need.

The professional women at issue are in plain denial of biology. It is very difficult for them to do what they want so they both deny and resent that. But denial and resentment doesn't change the cards nature gave us all.

102 posted on 01/03/2003 5:08:09 PM PST by Thud
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To: Thud
"Few fathers are willing to invest the time in care of very young children and fewer are any good at it. Mothers are better at it due to biology, which likewise makes it almost impossible for them to not spend the time with their children that the children need."

LOL! Describes us exactly!

103 posted on 01/03/2003 5:35:56 PM PST by Enterprise
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To: TroutStalker
Marriage is Holy.
104 posted on 01/03/2003 5:40:43 PM PST by onedoug
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To: Jim Noble
I just have a funny feeling Catherine Zeta-Jones wouldn't look at you once much less twice.

Here are two rules

1) Only give your milk if he has money power and good looks

2) Read Maureen Dowd, and watch Catherine Zeta-Jones
105 posted on 01/03/2003 6:32:56 PM PST by equus
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To: BuddhaBoy
Touche, that's pretty funny.
106 posted on 01/03/2003 6:33:48 PM PST by equus
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To: Thud
Thud, I think you make a lot of good points there, though it's not quite that cut and dried.
107 posted on 01/03/2003 6:43:18 PM PST by equus
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To: Centurion2000
Sam Kinison had a few "issues" with his ex wives.

In another routine, he (an ex evangelist preacher) said, "Some people asked me, 'aren't you afraid of going to hell' " (after a spiel about Jesus on the cross, his disciples mourning his impending death, with Jesus saying he wouldn't have to die if one of them could just find a ladder and pair of pliers).

Sam said, "I'm not afraid of Hell, I've been married twice, I could be a tour guide in hell."
108 posted on 01/03/2003 8:17:29 PM PST by E.Allen
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To: equus
>>I just have a funny feeling Catherine Zeta-Jones wouldn't look at you once much less twice<<

Sigh.

109 posted on 01/03/2003 8:42:45 PM PST by Jim Noble
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To: TroutStalker
The problem I see here is that young women are not encouraged to be mothers. If the motherhood notion struck them earlier, they would be eager to find a mate and marry at younger age... before they have been discarded by dozens of unsuitable men. The chances of a successful union are greater when she has some personal dignity left... something an education and career cannot establish nor replace.
110 posted on 01/03/2003 11:03:00 PM PST by ValerieUSA
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To: BuddhaBoy
I hate to concede a point to you... but this was true:

However, most women (and men) don’t realize that successful marriages are usually those where the couple grows and achieves together, rather than before marriage. Once a man or woman has achieved a certain level in life, marriage is no longer looked upon from the perspective of what can be gained from it, but of what can be lost from it.

111 posted on 01/03/2003 11:34:11 PM PST by ValerieUSA
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To: ValerieUSA
"The problem I see here is that young women are not encouraged to be mothers."

America had an entire generation (the Baby Boomers) that was told that it was awful to grow up (e.g. hope I die b4 I get old). They were told that they were supposed to play, live for the moment instead of the future, and that responsibility was someone else's problem.

And when they really were young, attractive, and popular, such words probably sounded really good to them.

But now the Boomers are old, and the ones in that generation who acted out the advice mentioned above are now used up, bitter, empty, and longing for the stability, tranquility, and success that comes to those who eschew such juvenile advice.

One of my wife's older friends is in that boat. She's done the career thing and the dating thing and the relationship thing and the travel/party thing and the perpetual vacation thing and yet she's miserable, always depressed, and every time we see her she complains that there are no "good men" left for her to marry.

She always tells my wife that I'm such a "great catch" and how did she do it and "Oh, I wish I could find someone like him", yet I DID meet her when I was single and get this, she physically YAWNED at me and got up to leave the very first time that I spoke to her as a single man way back then! After discarding such (in hindsight) "great" choices (presuming that she tossed away much better men than me, for instance), she now wonders why she's still single. Go figure.

And that's another thing: if all of that liberal claptrap about having it all and living for the moment - was so great, why are all these women who did such things wishing for the Conservative married life in the end?!

112 posted on 01/03/2003 11:58:38 PM PST by Southack
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To: alpowolf
I'm wondering how they define "good". I'm curious for selfish reasons, of course, being a 40+ bachelor who has always wanted to be married but never seemed to be deemed "good".

Whatever it is, it's not the same as being "too good" which is the line this 40+ bachelor always got when putting my heart on the line for a girl. I'm also still trying to figure out why they get to cry while *I'm* getting rejected but I'm not supposed to cry myself.

113 posted on 01/04/2003 12:13:38 AM PST by Tall_Texan
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To: lady lawyer
I think your post #5 is excellent.
114 posted on 01/04/2003 12:26:29 AM PST by Jhoffa_
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To: BuddhaBoy
If a man is going to settle down with a woman, he had best get hold of her before she can experience her first...

Been there, done that, got the tee shirt. Two of my last three girlfriends had been raped - the last one was raped twice. Those three girls totally ruined dating for me - lying, cheating, and mind games.

Companionship? I have male friends, and a dog.

Honestly, the only thing I miss is the sex.

I'm to the point now where I don't want to date, because my ability to tolerate B.S. is long since gone.

This last summer, I accidentally ran into my neighbor who'd moved in a year before. I had no interest in meeting her - I went up to the fence to pet her dog. She was out back, and walked down to chat. Had I known she was there, I wouldn't have walked up to the fence.

We ended up going out to see a movie. I mean, what's the harm? Kinda nice having an attractive female friend to go see movies with, right? I actually shook her hand - didn't hug, didn't kiss, didn't sit there having an awkward conversation - just shook her hand, said goodnight, and got out of her truck (she insisted on driving).

Her story - got married, had a kid, got divorced, went back to school, got a degree (art major), bought a house...

Anyway, four movies later, she starts falling asleep after she gets home from work, before we're supposed to go see the movie, on account of her hectic job / school / kid / house single parent lifestyle.

She stood me up twice for the same damn movie. Get this - she was pissed at me for telling her I wasn't going to be stood up by her a third time. That's the last time we spoke.

It was a quickie refresher course in why I'd avoided dating like the plague these past years.

115 posted on 01/04/2003 2:28:05 AM PST by Monitor
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To: ValerieUSA
I hate to concede a point to you...

I know, it must hurt so bad. I don't post any of this stuff to be mean. I post it, because these are the facts before me every time I encounter women out on the prowl.

116 posted on 01/04/2003 6:46:33 AM PST by BuddhaBoy
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To: ValerieUSA
The problem I see here is that young women are not encouraged to be mothers.

Again, the feminist-liberal culture at work.

There was a time when parentage was honored. Now, I can’t imagine anything more dreary then child rearing. You can’t spank the little brat without someone calling CPS on you; you have to call "time-out"? What kind of shit is that?

Young people are running wild because they don't fear or respect anyone any more. Who would want to be a parent, when you can spend your money on things that don’t talk back or eat your food? I can’t imagine anything worse than being parent to some spoiled brat who can call the ACLU on your ass if you mess with their self esteem. eff that, I’d rather be boiled in oil then to have some child dictating their civil rights to me.

117 posted on 01/04/2003 7:01:23 AM PST by BuddhaBoy
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To: Monitor
You should buy her some roses, with a card saying that she only gets to keep them if she promises to never speak to you again.

A perfect thanks for a perfect reminder of the hell that awaits you if you get caught up with a woman with issues.

118 posted on 01/04/2003 7:04:45 AM PST by BuddhaBoy
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To: BuddhaBoy
re: Was she hot? Probably not. Hot women don't shop at Home Depot without their OWN husband or boyfriend.)))

LOL. Well. You've discovered DH and my favorite night out. After renting the video, head to Lowe's to check out the stuff. Our town just got a MONSTROUS Lowes.

Asked him if he got hit on at Lowe's, as he is a good-looking and well-earning professional. Nope. Maybe I'm dressing him badly? And if he *had* gotten hit on, he'd be happy to let me know, just out of pride.

Maybe it's the vibes a guy puts out that has to do with the quality of gal he appeals to? He's never been properly appreciated by the ladies, and I snapped him up very young. My own theory is that college is the best chance. But now, in school, the gals outnumber the guys.

Out of the mouths of babes department: My oldest college boy son is very good-looking, people say he looks like Tom Cruise. However, Tom Cruise has a weak chin and funny teeth and my son is really much cuter and stronger-looking. He depended on girls always making the first move, which his dinosaur of a mom disliked. Pick your girls, don't let them pick you. They're picking you, anyway, and expect to be pursued. A Nice Girl Worth Having always has to maintain something of the upper hand. Boys Don't Respect a Girl Who Acts Desperate.

Lately he's got a great tootsie who kind of snubbed him at first, and he had to work up the confidence to do the pursuing for once. He and she are really much more pleased with this dynamic. Hey, I didn't write those Rules.

119 posted on 01/04/2003 7:15:11 AM PST by Mamzelle
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To: fuente
My beautiful wife has several freinds that won't look at a guy unless he resembles a >2C flawless diamond. (all insinuations included!)

That's funny. I don't think it ever occurs to these women, like the house buying analogy, they may just not have the resources to obtain the property they want.

A very close friend had a very rocky marriage for several years. The thing that seemed to turn the tide for him was a systematic, detailed, and documented explaination to his Mrs. that she just wasn't worth all the effort she expected him to expend on her.

Once she figured out he wasn't just trying to be hurtful, and she really didn't merit any of the deference she thought was hers by "divine right" she settled down and became much more reasonable in her expectations.

120 posted on 01/04/2003 7:33:05 AM PST by Woahhs
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To: Mamzelle
Pick your girls, don't let them pick you. They're picking you, anyway, and expect to be pursued.

I had a Fiesta Bowl party at my home last night with a few new friends. Two of my friends each brought a single woman to my party, hoping to pair them up with me.

I could hardly watch the game, for all the chatter and fawning, but it was great when they each offered to stay and help me 'clean up'. I spent the fourth quarter trying to figure out how I could later leave them to clean up while I went out for some jazz, but my friends wouldn’t have it, so I had to choose.

Both of the girls were pretty, both were young, with nice bodies. After speaking with them, I found that both were potential baby machines waiting to be switched on, hoping to nest in my house. One of them was telling me that my house needed “a woman’s touch”, as the sirens went off in my head. Shame, because she had great hooters.

No, we don't have to pursue them at all. If a man wants most any woman, all he has to do is buy a house, be in shape, drive a decent car, smell good, and speak with a calm voice.

Single woman are under every rock, behind every tree, just waiting to capture your credit rating- oops, I mean your heart. Yeah, that’s it, your HEART. LOL!

121 posted on 01/04/2003 7:35:17 AM PST by BuddhaBoy
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To: BuddhaBoy
My youngest son (of four sons) turns 13 today. I can't imagine life without him. Nothing is more fulfilling than child-rearing -- though it is was more satisfying when their father was alive and well to share in the reponsibility and rewards. Women who undertake this fulltime job deliberately on their own are being selfish, unrealistic fools. But that's what is happening more and more when older unmarried women can't find a husband and hear their biological clocks ticking louder every day.
"No good men left" means no good fathers... so they bear and rear kids on their own. No matter how good a woman thinks she is, she is not good enough to be both a good mother and a good father - which is what every kids needs.
122 posted on 01/04/2003 7:49:45 AM PST by ValerieUSA
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To: ValerieUSA
I agree with you about fathers. The bureaucrats and politicians have made fatherhood something to be avoided. Spanking is practically illegal; threatening a child is considered assault.

You women are getting everything you asked for; a world without responsibility, without male domination, a world of equality. You are waking up to your worst nightmare; a world without men.

This is because your mothers empowered a group of angry hag-lesbian-feminists as their leaders, and proceeded to ruin your lives. I think you girls are getting exactly what you deserve. Not as individuals, but as a group.

In another 50 years, things will probably be back to normal, but only after women go back to being women, and letting men go back to being men.

123 posted on 01/04/2003 7:59:13 AM PST by BuddhaBoy
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To: BuddhaBoy
You women are getting everything you asked for; a world without responsibility, without male domination, a world of equality. You are waking up to your worst nightmare; a world without men.

Think again. Women didn't get this power on their own... the previously empowered men saw a lot of advantages for themselves in this liberation movement brought on by birth control -- carefree sex carefree sex carefree sex. Easier divorce from older wives so they are free to pursue younger women and attempt to recapture their own fleeting youth.
The harsh consequences of the new world didn't occur to them either until they bent over and let the women give it to them.
It's not a war between the sexes, as you paint it, it's a clash between cultures - between traditional family values and liberal selfishness as practiced by both men and women.

124 posted on 01/04/2003 8:09:38 AM PST by ValerieUSA
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To: BuddhaBoy
In another 50 years, things will probably be back to normal, but only after women go back to being women, and letting men go back to being men.

What real man allows someone to "let" him be a man?

125 posted on 01/04/2003 8:15:30 AM PST by ValerieUSA
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To: alpowolf
"...I was kind of hoping to find a woman who loves me."

Only took 57 postings for this to appear. Congratulations. I note too in the article, there is no mention whatsoever of the importance of the hunter-woman having the ability to feel love or affection or to give of herself. And they wonder why men don't line up at their doors. Interesting...
126 posted on 01/04/2003 8:18:29 AM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: BuddhaBoy
I've been meanign to tell you this for a long time now... you sound like Starr from the Starr and Buc Wild show on Hot97 NY... (97.1 FM). That's a compliment, if you don't know who he is.
127 posted on 01/04/2003 8:19:51 AM PST by AM2000
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To: BuddhaBoy
re: Single woman are under every rock, behind every tree, just waiting to capture your credit rating- oops, I mean your heart. Yeah, that’s it, your HEART. LOL!)))

You know, you answered my comment with yet another inyerface kind of "Use 'em and lose 'em" nastiness that I suppose is designed to devastate?. Not that I'm necessarily offended, I just wanted to see if a rather benign post of mine would manage to provoke the same tune you've always hummed.

It did.

My grandaddy, a narrow and selfish man, worried every day that someone wanted what was his and was anxious to take advantage of him. After all, his only child was conceived by accident and supporting him was a bitter frustration and a burden (when his life was ending, he had live out the final months with his son and daughter-in-law). He made many appeals to his granddaughter's affection, about the only person he'd given ungaurded affection to in his long and grasping life. The affection was returned out of compassion but with no illusions.

Here you are on a Saturday morning, making yet the same exchanges looking for the same opportunity to express your free-floating resentment against womankind. Why so often, and so much?

There's a world of families out there, many with flaws, that provide nourishment and sustinence against the encroachment of loneliness and disappointment. If men didn't need marriage, they wouldn't remarry so quickly upon widowhood and divorce. Seems like you need to remount your defenses pretty often.

128 posted on 01/04/2003 8:21:44 AM PST by Mamzelle
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To: equus
What a sad commentary. All about money and security. Oh--and the obligatory "freedom to express yourself."

Nothing at all about the quality of the relationship, or whether you and your interesting friends even care about, much less love, the units you have selected.

Gee, I can't imagine why some of the men, who have met some of the women, who are like some of you, might have some hostile feelings!
129 posted on 01/04/2003 8:35:42 AM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: ValerieUSA
Women didn't get this power on their own... the previously empowered men saw a lot of advantages for themselves in this liberation movement brought on by birth control -- carefree sex carefree sex carefree sex. Easier divorce from older wives so they are free to pursue younger women and attempt to recapture their own fleeting youth.

I cannot argue with that. Good point.

130 posted on 01/04/2003 8:38:43 AM PST by BuddhaBoy
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To: alpowolf
I'm wondering how they define "good". I'm curious for selfish reasons, of course, being a 40+ bachelor who has always wanted to be married but never seemed to be deemed "good".

Don't ruin a perfect record. I got married for the first (and only) time at 38. It was a disaster!

131 posted on 01/04/2003 8:38:52 AM PST by null and void
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To: AM2000
Never hear of them, but I'd like to hear them sometime. Are they on the Internet?
132 posted on 01/04/2003 8:39:24 AM PST by BuddhaBoy
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To: Mamzelle
It is called humor, sugar. You can't expect me to be serious before I've had my morning coffee, can you? Can a brother get a break?
133 posted on 01/04/2003 8:40:41 AM PST by BuddhaBoy
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To: ValerieUSA
What real man allows someone to "let" him be a man?

These days real men avoid women for more than anything but temporary encounters, because women alone are not the problem. It is the woman-courts-legislatures combination that have worked to strip men of their manhood.

Left alone, men are not used to having to fight the state for their birthright, but we are learning. It is early in the struggle, so for now, we just avoid those things that can work against us.

134 posted on 01/04/2003 8:44:13 AM PST by BuddhaBoy
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To: Monitor
She stood me up twice for the same damn movie. Get this - she was pissed at me for telling her I wasn't going to be stood up by her a third time. That's the last time we spoke.

Oh, yeah. The "it's YOUR fault I stood you up" stand up. I've been through that one before too.

The absolute worst day of every year for me is Valentine's Day. The local supermarket already has its VD candy display up (January 3rd) and I practically choked. When it comes to Valentine's Day, I've had more strikeouts than Nolan Ryan.

135 posted on 01/04/2003 8:45:26 AM PST by Tall_Texan
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To: TroutStalker
Why is it this topic always generates so many impassioned posts?
136 posted on 01/04/2003 8:49:03 AM PST by I_dmc
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To: BuddhaBoy
It is my married friends who are the strongest in advising me to never get married.

I am a firm beliver in Asimov's Law: Once when asked about writing, he replied "Going into a career in writing is like getting married, anyone who can be talked out of it, should be."

137 posted on 01/04/2003 8:49:19 AM PST by null and void
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To: goodnesswins
"I'm not getting rid of my guns, changing my magazine subscriptions, shaving my beard off, etc etc."

There are women out there who have DONE THAT to their husbands....??? Wouldn't the men kinda know this going into the marriage?

Yes. No.

138 posted on 01/04/2003 8:51:19 AM PST by null and void
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To: BuddhaBoy
I don't think you can hear him on the web.. not sure, though. But here's his webpage.. he's real funny and can be incrediby offensive and abrasive.. I listen to him most mornings on my drive to work...

http://www.hot97.com/jocks/starbuc.aspx

139 posted on 01/04/2003 8:57:22 AM PST by AM2000
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To: sr4402
It must be rough for women these days... not having any standards to determine good by.

Clinton???

140 posted on 01/04/2003 8:59:08 AM PST by null and void
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To: equus
As for making oneself "saleable"--there's no point to being with a man if he can't offer security.

As I look back on my 30 year career in wafer fab/electronics, and notice that I've been unemployed 9 of the last 12 months, I must asert there is no such thing as "security"...

141 posted on 01/04/2003 9:02:47 AM PST by null and void
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To: onedoug
Marriage is Holy.

But it's not a suicide pact.

142 posted on 01/04/2003 9:06:57 AM PST by null and void
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To: cynaman
And I thought I was cynical!!

Of course, I'm a 46 year old bachelor who's cynicism was formed from observing marriage from the outside. I thank you for your contribution.

Seriously, though, I think one of the reasons women are finding it so difficult to find husbands is that they are viewed by men not as someone to care for and provide for, but rather as competitors. And,in many cases they are competitors with a legislated advantage. Although competition is often amicable and frienly, a competitor is to be nevertheless defeated.
143 posted on 01/04/2003 9:08:07 AM PST by sixgunjer
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To: BuddhaBoy
They were told to seek out men with home improvement supplies in their carts who were not wearing a wedding ring.

A woman (married) I worked with used to tell the others to look for men in laundramats. She said that only single men go to them and if for some reason a married man is there you're going to see women's and kids' clothes so you'd still know. She said it was much better than looking in bars.

144 posted on 01/04/2003 9:15:04 AM PST by FITZ
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To: I_dmc
Why is it this topic always generates so many impassioned posts?

Because so many of us have been burned...

145 posted on 01/04/2003 9:18:22 AM PST by null and void
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To: FITZ
I don't know if that is good advice, because any man with anything going for him should be able to find/romance/pay some woman to do his laundry.
146 posted on 01/04/2003 9:26:28 AM PST by BuddhaBoy
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To: BuddhaBoy
All it means is they have small boobs. Small boobs stay perky longer, but they're still small. Of course, some men like them that way.
147 posted on 01/04/2003 9:34:09 AM PST by flyervet
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To: flyervet
Not always. Some women are truly blessed by nature.
148 posted on 01/04/2003 9:39:14 AM PST by BuddhaBoy
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To: BuddhaBoy
In this case, nature = breast lift. Sort of like, "I don't wear make-up, I just naturally have good skin," and "This is my real hair color,".
149 posted on 01/04/2003 9:46:17 AM PST by flyervet
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To: ValerieUSA
What an interesting thread.

Really, as a 40-year-old married man with three kids, I feel guilty for even having read it.

But what should I tell my sons - my daughter - to expect in life?

Should they get married in college? Shortly after? Should I raise my daughter to expect a MRS degree?

I don't know.

My wife, formerly a Special-ED teacher (now a full-time mom), will tell the world that the vast majority of her special-needs children were born to 40+ mothers. It isn't just that fertility goes down, its that risk is increased.

I think I will go hug my wife.

150 posted on 01/04/2003 9:49:33 AM PST by patton
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