Owners of environmentally friendly cars protest at Los Angeles Auto Show

AP | 1/04/03 | GARY GENTILE

[kattracks]

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- More than 70 hybrid cars were parked outside the Los Angeles Convention Center to send a message to Detroit automakers: There is a demand for fuel-efficient, environmentally friendly vehicles.

The gathering Friday of hybrid car owners from Sacramento to San Diego, as well as Hollywood celebrities, contrasted with the muscle cars and gas-guzzling SUVs inside at the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show.

Hybrid cars combine a gasoline engine with an electric motor. Some cars, like the Toyota Prius, use the electric motor exclusively at low speeds, while others, such as Honda's Civic, use power from both at all speeds.

"We're here to show that people are interested in something to promote clean air with less fuel," said Jessie Williams, who drove his Prius from El Cajon.

Actress Nancy Allen traded her Volvo in for a Prius last July.

"It's so peppy," she said. "Every day I drive it, I feel I'm giving something back to the environment and giving something back to myself."

The protest came as the Union of Concerned Scientists released a report concluding that American-made cars and trucks could reach an average of 60 miles per gallon by the end of the next decade by adopting the best hybrid technology.

Hybrids cost more than conventional cars. But buyers can qualify for a federal tax deduction and local tax incentives in some areas.

Chrysler Group President Dieter Zetsche downplayed hybrids in a speech Thursday, saying fuel cell technology is the ultimate answer and that improving existing diesel technology is a better short-term alternative.

Ford is producing a hybrid SUV and introduced a reduced-emissions Focus at the show Thursday.

Actress Donna Mills stopped driving her Lexus when she bought one of the first Prius hybrids 2½ years ago.

"Enough already with being dependent on foreign countries for oil or drilling in the Arctic for oil," she said. "People want these cars. People love them. Make them."

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On the Net:

Greater Los Angeles Auto Show: http://www.laautoshow.com/

Copyright 2003 Associated Press. All rights reserved.

[goose1]

would have been funny if their was a hummer convention going on the same time.You guys park over their, oops sorry.

[Highest Authority]

I want to thank these gas saveing people for leaving more for me and my 5 mpg motorhome!

[Looking4Truth]

One version: "I'm soooo jealous of your cool car. I can't get attention in my crap-mobile so I'll rant against what you like."

Another version: "I'm a socialist control freak and until you ride the bus, buy a 'smegway' or 'conform to my views now, dammit!' I'm going to whine until what I want is mine."

Another version: "I'm so freakin' clueless that I forget that the plastic in my car caused the same 'environmental impact' as the plastic in the 'gas guzzling' SUV, or since I'm still driving my own 'shiny metal box' the roads will have to be maintained and improved at the expense of the 'ecosystem', or that if I actually had any conviction at all I would get a horse (NOT!) or a bicycle.

[Oldeconomybuyer]

	Actress Nancy Allen displays the engine of her car during a rally of hybrid car owners demonstarting outside the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show Friday, Jan 3, 2003. The Union of Concerned Scientists issued a report Friday, Jan. 3, 2003, calling on auto manufacturers to fully embrace hybrid technology as a means of boosting fuel efficiency and cutting pollution. (AP Photo/Nick Ut) - Jan 03 1:42 PM ET
	Owners of hybrid cars rally outside the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show early Friday morning, Jan. 3, 2003, in support of a report issued by The Union of Concerned Scientists. The report calls on auto manufacturers to fully embrace hybrid technology as a means of boosting fuel efficiency and cutting pollution. (AP Photo/Nick Ut) - Jan 03 1:39 PM ET

[Jorge]

"It's so peppy," she said. "Every day I drive it, I feel I'm giving something back to the environment and giving something back to myself."

It's still using some gas, which still is polluting the air and causing global warming and contributing to deaths of humans and many other species. It's also requiring additional features that help it save gas but cost more and require extra polluting manufacturing processes..which kill more trees and animals and people.

It's just like you killed them yourself.
So what the hell are you giving back to the environment?

[Fresh Wind]

Owners of slow cars always refer to them as "peppy".

[metesky]

Don't worry, Nancy doesn't really think she is giving something back to the environment, she merely feels that way.

[Feckless]

"There is a demand for fuel-efficient, environmentally friendly vehicles"

Yeah, but those 70 idiots already have them. Why build more that nobody else wants?

[John Jamieson]

Prius is the lowest performing car on the American Market!

Hybrid Cars are a Fraud

Argument 1 These cars do NOT save the customer money (when compared to it’s sister).

Toyota says that customers are buying the Prius for it's improved gas mileage, NOT it's possible pollution reduction.

A Prius is a $10,000 Toyota Echo stretched 6" in the hood to contain the motor/generator package. Outfitting an Echo with all the nice options raises it’s cost to about $16k. The Prius model changes the name and adds a $5000 package that saves about 500 gallons of gas over 100,000 miles.

The extra $5,000 brings with it at least another $1.6k in sales tax, finance charges, insurance, and extra tire costs (low rolling resistance tires). Subtract the $600 you get for your $2000 tax rebate (ripped from my pocket) and the total cost to save 500 gallons of gas is $12 per gallon!

Surely these people are not doing the math!

Argument 2. Battery costs.

EDMUNDS recently explored the battery replacement costs for these vehicles. Honda quoted $6.5k for the Civic battery and Toyota said "about" $3k for the Prius battery. That's interesting because both batteries are made up of the same 6 amp hour "D" cells and the Honda battery is 144 volts while Toyotas is 274 volts. The Toyota battery should be the more expensive one. My own research shows the wholesale price of the Toyota battery should be about $4k based on industry sources.

Battery life is estimated to be 100,000 miles by both manufacturers (my battery manuals don't agree). The first battery is included in the purchase price but it is unlikely that any owner would be able to trade a car with a battery near, or at its end life. A lot of people are going to suffer sticker shock when they replace that battery. Battery cost will be about 4 cents per mile about the same as fuel at $2 a gallon and on top of fuel costs! I wonder what the recycle charge will be?

Battery costs are unlikely to go down much. The American manufacturer (Ovid) is currently suing Toyota and Panasonic for patent infringement. GM must not have thought that battery costs were going down either when they recently crushed (impacted?) their entire fleet of electric Impacts.

Argument 3. Extra Safety Concerns

Unlike current cars these cars have lethal battery voltages. Most manufactures plan to go to 36/42 volts in the near future, but the Civic uses 144 volts and the Prius 274 volts. Careless poking around in the wiring is likely to light up some do-it-your selfers! Even of more concern would be the exposed voltage due to a car wreck. Rescuers better be very careful where they use the jaws-of-life!

Probably even worse is high energy potential of these batteries; either contains the power of a large commercial welder. In an accident, a short could melt major hunks of steel around you and serve as an excellent ignition source for the gasoline they still carry.

I expect some every interesting crashes over the next few years.

Argument 4 NO nets gain to Mother Earth.

Any "Green" car is going to have to produce less pollution over it's entire life cycle to be taken seriously. That life cycle includes: mining the raw materials, processing them, forming them, assembly, operating costs, and recycle costs. Better gas mileage alone is NOT a reasonable criteria if more pollution is generated during production and recycle than is saved during operation.

GM has said it will charge about $3,000 extra for these cars and will sell them (at first) at cost. I take that to mean that their costs are much more than $3,000 (they must be making something on the ones they sell now). Many insiders also believe that Honda and Toyota are selling their cars well below cost (Honda quotes $4.5k for a replacement motor and $6.5k for a replacement battery, $11k, but only charges $3k).

These extra costs involve energy intensive materials in large quantities, such as nickel and copper. Battery manufacture and recycling are dirty chemical operations. Since the total fuel savings is about 500 gallons or $750 worth of energy, it is very likely that these cars have "burned" more energy than that in their many thousands of dollars of extra manufacturing costs. If not, recycling would certainly put them over the edge.

The net saving to the planet is likely negative not positive, the owner just doesn't know it, as he shows off his new "Green" vehicle!

One last bitch: It's one thing for consumers to make stupid choices in the market place, it's quite another to ask me to help pay for that bad decision in my taxes!

[The Raven]

The horse presented a pollution problem in cities -so along comes Henry Ford and the car is born.

Now the car presents pollution problem in cities - so the solution is ....????

Another car???

Don't think so. Not yet, anyway. (last year the solution was that battery operated pogo stick).

[RushLake]

Another version: "I'm a socialist control freak and until you ride the bus, buy a 'smegway' or 'conform to my views now, dammit!' I'm going to whine until what I want is mine."

And then, when I have you under control in the apartment block in the city, I'll just drive the Suburban out to my Dacha in the country to enjoy the fresh air. One needs to unwind after doing it to...er,uh...doing the people's work. The Dacha used to belong to a retired auto worker that saved all his life for it, but why does he need such a large place anyway?

[per loin]

Saudi Arabia appreciates your support.

[Lion Den Dan]

I grow so weary of the term "gas guzzeling " stuck in front of SUV. Vehicles getting 22+ mpg are hardly guzzelers. My 1ton truck at 17mpg diesel is hardly a guzzeler considering what it carries/pulls.

[johnny7]

The thing that bothers the sh_t out of me with these goofballs is they want to force their “values” on everyone!

They don't believe in freedom... they believe in doctrine!

[John Jamieson]

And they want you to help pay for their folly! Any SUV owners out there asking for a Federal handout?

[JoeGar]

Actress Nancy Allen traded her Volvo in for a Prius last July.

She will wish she still had the Volvo the first time she attempts to pass a car on a 2-lane road.

[John Jamieson]

"The protest came as the Union of Concerned Scientists released a report concluding that American-made cars and trucks could reach an average of 60 miles per gallon by the end of the next decade by adopting the best hybrid technology."

It's clear that these "scientists" havn't thought much about the pollution and cost of replacing 20 million sets of exotic 100 pound battery packs every year in this country.

[Moonmad27]

Wasn't it on Rush's show that one of his funny skits had a guy saying something like "We're building three hybrid cars next year - got to keep up with the demand." I always enjoy seeing one of those little capsules on wheels trying to drive up a steep grade near here - especially fun since the little guy is always surrounded by SUVs and huge trucks, for whom he would be simply a hood ornament.

[NYpeanut]

Somebody kill me please before I have to drive a peppy car.