Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The brutish British: You think Nazism couldn’t happen here?
The Spectator ^ | 12/28/2002 | Theodore Dalrymple

Posted on 01/04/2003 8:00:25 AM PST by Republic of Texas

I grew up believing that it couldn’t happen here; that the intrinsic decency, good sense and ironical detachment of the British would have precluded Nazism or anything like it from taking root in our sceptred isle. Now I am not so sure. Utter vileness does not need a numerical majority to become predominant in a society. The Nazis never had an electoral majority in Germany, yet Germany offered very little resistance to their barbarism. Of course, it is highly unlikely that history would repeat itself in anything approximating the same form; but evil, unlike good, is infinitely multiform. We can invent our own totalitarian evil. There is little doubt that we have prepared the ground very well for evil’s triumph.

Despite years of unprecedented prosperity, a larger proportion than ever before of the population is dependent, or partly dependent, upon the state as provider. Only this week, an unmarried woman with three young children by the same man told me that when she asked him for money to buy them shoes that they needed, he told her to take a loan out from ‘the social’; that, he opined, was what it was there for. He had in any case made it abundantly clear that under no circumstances would he part with any money for the upkeep of his children, and so far had been as good as his word. The exact proportion of British fathers who have abrogated their parental responsibilities to the state in return for the right to use their income purely as pocket money to spend on their vulgar distractions is not fully known, nor that of mothers who accept this abominable arrangement; but it is not small and it is growing.

Not only are such people severely lacking in ethical standards, but they also live in permanent fear of the power that they have ceded to the state; and no one who has any dealings with the bureaucracy of welfare, child support, housing and so forth can be left in any doubt as to its power to grind people up and spit them out. Hedonistic egotism, fear and resentment form the character of a large proportion of our population, and it is a character that is ripe for exploitation. They have made themselves natural slaves.

Whenever I have dealings with British bureaucrats, an insistent question is at the back of my mind: is there any order you would refuse to obey? From my observations of their conduct, my guess is that, in general, there isn’t; that they would prefer mass slaughter to the loss of their jobs and that, in the event of a post facto trial, all of them would fall back on the old excuse, I was only obeying orders. Let me give two examples. It is well known that moving very old people from where they are settled to a new location results in an increased death-rate among them; that is to say, it kills them. Recently, arbitrary government regulation has meant that many perfectly adequate residential homes have closed down, and their residents decanted into large and impersonal homes that meet the bureaucratic requirements, where many of them swiftly die. Is it likely that any British bureaucrat, at any level of employment, has resigned rather than implement this murderous policy in any individual case? No: better a hecatomb than a mortgage unpaid.

Recently, I received a circular headed New Ethnic Categories that began with the words, ‘As you may know, we are required to monitor the ethnic origins of our staff.’ Who was this ‘we’ of whom the circular spoke: no names, only ‘The Human Resources Unit’ (Orwell could have done no better). And no decent reason for this fascistic practice was given; the ‘we are required’ being the final and irrefutable argument in its favour. Again it is a fair bet that not a single peep of protest was uttered in the office of the ‘Human Resources Unit’ when this circular was sent round.

Would anyone have mentioned the fact that the Dutch bureaucracy’s refusal to destroy census data on the religious affiliations of the Dutch population on the eve of the German occupation greatly aided the subsequent elimination of Dutch Jewry? It would have cut no ice anyway: let there be genocide so long as I have money to go clubbing at the weekend. Every public service has been weakened by the ethos of obeying centralised orders. Doctors, teachers, the police, social workers, prison officers, crown prosecutors, university dons have all been emasculated by the ‘need’ to obey orders that they know are fatuous at best, and positively destructive or even wicked at worst.

The organised lying that results from centralised information-gathering not only blunts critical faculties and makes it impossible to distinguish true information from false, but also morally compromises those who participate in the process: everyone is made an accomplice of the central power, and so less and less does anyone feel able to make a stand. The more state employees conform to the rules laid down, the more helpless and degraded they become, which is the ultimate purpose of these rules. When you go to the doctor nowadays, you are not seeking his advice; you are finding out what the government has told him to do. Only appearances remain the same; the reality is changed utterly.

There has been virtually no resistance to this sinister process, no protest and few resignations. The public, gorged with bread and benumbed by circuses, is completely indifferent. I can’t help thinking of the murder of psychiatric patients and the mentally disabled in Nazi Germany. Neither the public nor the medical profession protested to any great extent (though, instructively, those few doctors who did protest were not punished for it). This terrible crime was made possible, though not inevitable, by an entire cultural context.

We, too, are now creating a cultural context in which great state crimes are possible, though perhaps not yet inevitable. When I see the routine inhumanity with which my patients are treated by the state and its various bureaucracies, often in the name of obedience to rules, I think that anything is possible in this country. Yes, when I see the baying mobs of drunken young people who pullulate in our city centres every weekend, awaiting their evil genius to organise them into some kind of pseudo-community, and think of our offices full of potential Eichmanns, I shudder. Our fascism will no doubt be touchy-feely rather than a boot in the face — more Kafka than Hitler — but it will be ruthless nonetheless. Timeservers led by scoundrels: that is the future of this septic isle.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: britian; nazi; socialism
Politically, the US is about 50 years behind Britian, and gaining fast. If you want to see the political future of the US, just look at Britian. That's what scares me.
1 posted on 01/04/2003 8:00:26 AM PST by Republic of Texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
Nice HTML in the title, doncha think?
2 posted on 01/04/2003 8:01:14 AM PST by Republic of Texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
The preview button can be your friend.
3 posted on 01/04/2003 8:08:23 AM PST by w1andsodidwe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
Tell Alex Jones to take a breather from his conspiracy theory books, and go have a drink or something.
4 posted on 01/04/2003 8:11:15 AM PST by SteveSenti
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
Bookmarked. Theodore Dalrymple is a British national treasure, and in a perfect world he would be Prime Minister.
5 posted on 01/04/2003 8:12:23 AM PST by denydenydeny
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: w1andsodidwe
I didn't spend enough time with my friend on this one!
6 posted on 01/04/2003 8:13:44 AM PST by Republic of Texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
wrong. absolutely wrong. The UK is following the US lead. How long have we been required to submit ethnic data for the government? 20-30 years?

The UK is also catching up with the US regarding education. They lag about 5 years in implementing Outcome Based Education programs. For the first time a few days ago I saw an article that said 30% of Scottish parents would homeschool. Their standards have been dumbed down and the system is in disarray.

7 posted on 01/04/2003 8:14:49 AM PST by Mark Felton
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
The Brits are, by and large, a pragmatic people. Any great overarching social/political theories put them off. This trait will save them from going too far down the path of blind worship for a "great leader."
The Brits will, as usual, muddle through rather than going wild in any particular direction.
8 posted on 01/04/2003 8:21:55 AM PST by ricpic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SteveSenti
Did you sign up today just for this?
9 posted on 01/04/2003 8:21:57 AM PST by denydenydeny
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
"Politically, the US is about 50 years behind Britian, and gaining fast. If you want to see the political future of the US, just look at Britian. That's what scares me."

You obviously don't live in California, neither are you a civil servant.
10 posted on 01/04/2003 8:43:50 AM PST by sixgunjer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mark Felton
As far as the tendency to support socialism, Britian is ahead of the US. I don't doubt that in other areas we are ahead of them, but both countries should be alarmed at the direction they are heading.
11 posted on 01/04/2003 8:46:32 AM PST by Republic of Texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: sixgunjer
LOL. I should rephrase that. Both countries are behind Kalifornia when it comes to socialism and state self-destruction. And no, thank God, I am not a civil servant. I actually contribute to the economy.
12 posted on 01/04/2003 8:48:25 AM PST by Republic of Texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: SteveSenti
Welcome Steve! (I hope you have your flame retardent jacket on this morning. NO ONE is immune from the fire here! LOL!)
14 posted on 01/04/2003 8:58:44 AM PST by Marie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: cynaman
Couldn't agree more!
15 posted on 01/04/2003 9:02:54 AM PST by Republic of Texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
Bump
16 posted on 01/04/2003 9:05:41 AM PST by Fiddlstix
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Fiddlstix
Back at ya!
17 posted on 01/04/2003 9:07:49 AM PST by Republic of Texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
Thanks for posting this article - not only full of truth BUT beautifully written!!
18 posted on 01/04/2003 9:23:52 AM PST by First Amendment
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: pram
SOCIALISM ALWAYS FAILS!
19 posted on 01/04/2003 9:25:37 AM PST by Republic of Texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
Utter vileness does not need a numerical majority to become predominant in a society. The Nazis never had an electoral majority in Germany, yet Germany offered very little resistance to their barbarism.

The Nazi's and their allied German National People's Party won 52.3% of the vote in the March 1933 election (which did include the Communists, Socialists, and Catholic Center Party also). Prior to that, they had been the largest single party since the 6th Reichstag Election in 1932. Because the Nazis were excluded from the Government prior to that time, and they and the Communists could prevent a majority government frombeing formed without them, the minister von Papen was picked by Hindenburg, beginning the march of undemocratic rule in Germany that culminated in Hindenburg finally relenting and asking Hitler and his allies to form a government based on a parliamnetary majority, which they did. Even today, most parliamentary systems do not elect parties with more than about 40% of the vote due to numerous minor parties, so not winning a majority is hardly out of the ordinary.

There was little resistance by ordinary Germans because the Nazi regime was brutish to only the misfits of German society like Communists and Homoexuals, and to the Jews. Otherwise, the Nazi regime was full of benefits to the regular German - new homes, jobs, new public works, etc. This is like saying there is little resistance by me to the war on terrorism by the US. Of course not. I'm not its target. It'd be different if I was an Arab.

20 posted on 01/04/2003 9:47:46 AM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker
" The Nazi's and their allied German National People's Party won 52.3% of the vote in the March 1933 election" Article stated Nazi's not Nazi's and aliied parties. But who wants to split hairs. Are you saying the Nazi regime was ok because they were duly elected? BTW, the Nazi's turned on the Jews, Gypsies, ect..., because they hated them, not because terrorist Jews killed 3000 Germans in a terrorist attack. If you want to defend nazi's and Arab terrorists, go ahead, I love a circus.
21 posted on 01/04/2003 9:53:04 AM PST by Republic of Texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
don't know about your html, but you have a great screen name. ;)
22 posted on 01/04/2003 10:19:41 AM PST by christine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: denydenydeny
Theodore Dalrymple is a British national treasure

Agreed! I just read another excellent article by him (in National Review) on the sad state of affairs (w/r/t lawlessness) there. Is he making his work available online?

23 posted on 01/04/2003 10:19:56 AM PST by Eala
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
The organised lying that results from centralised information-gathering not only blunts critical faculties and makes it impossible to distinguish true information from false, but also morally compromises those who participate in the process: everyone is made an accomplice of the central power, and so less and less does anyone feel able to make a stand. The more state employees conform to the rules laid down, the more helpless and degraded they become, which is the ultimate purpose of these rules. When you go to the doctor nowadays, you are not seeking his advice; you are finding out what the government has told him to do. Only appearances remain the same; the reality is changed utterly.

Echoes of Soviet-style societal distortion. It's becoming ever more difficult to declare victory in the Cold War. (I mistakenly posted this to abuse first - mods please disregard)

24 posted on 01/04/2003 10:21:41 AM PST by witnesstothefall
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: christine
TY!
25 posted on 01/04/2003 10:23:31 AM PST by Republic of Texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: witnesstothefall
In short, lie enough, and it becomes the truth.
26 posted on 01/04/2003 10:24:36 AM PST by Republic of Texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
Are you saying the Nazi regime was ok because they were duly elected?

I don't think he is. He's just supplying the minutiae.

Note, though, that such regimes have to have scapegoats, somebody to blame for when things don't go just right (and of course they won't). For the Nazis it was the Jews. (Other disenfranchised groups including the homosexuals and gypsies of course entered the mix.) For Lenin (or was it Stalin, haven't had my coffee yet) it was the kulaks.

If Britain goes down this road it will no doubt be the "Pakis", or maybe all Arabs.

27 posted on 01/04/2003 10:26:19 AM PST by Eala
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: cynaman
The mexican govt. released some figures stating that Mexico had sent us some 35 million illegal folks from their fine country, and we do nothing. Islamic countries send us their criminals, so 8 to ten MILLION of them and our borders are still open.

It's funny that this post is on a Nazism thread. Substitute the word "Jew" for "Mexican," and I notice a striking similarity to things I've read from the past...

28 posted on 01/04/2003 10:27:51 AM PST by Viva Le Dissention
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Eala
They might be partially correct there, but the REAL answer is SOCIALISM, propogated by good 'ol fair skinned Brits. Or in the US, fair skinned Americans.
29 posted on 01/04/2003 10:29:20 AM PST by Republic of Texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
Politically, the US is about 50 years behind Britian, and gaining fast. If you want to see the political future of the US, just look at Britian. That's what scares me.

Now why would you say that? It's not like we are starting to put cameras all over the place ;-) (FWIW, I've been to London, and while many people don't have a problem with cameras all over the place, it was creepy as hell to me, and I kept thinking "Stalin and Hitler never had the ability to monitor their citizens like the Brits do now).

30 posted on 01/04/2003 10:32:02 AM PST by af_vet_rr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
Nazism, genocide, mass murder, and torture can happen anywhere there are human beings. This is why we must always be alert to evil such as this, and snuff it out as soon as it appears.
31 posted on 01/04/2003 10:32:28 AM PST by mg39
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
They might be partially correct there, but the REAL answer is SOCIALISM, propogated by good 'ol fair skinned Brits. Or in the US, fair skinned Americans

You'll get no argument here. Ironically, I was just looking to see if Dalrymple posted his work online, in one place (so far: no, but a number of columns are out there). The following is from a review of his book:

"LIFE AT THE BOTTOM"

Many writers have described the plight of the poor who live on society’s bottom rung. But few have climbed down beyond simple material scarcity to the world of psychic desolation inhabited by the underclass. Theodore Dalrymple, a doctor practicing in London’s slums for the last 20 years, made the journey, and he details his experiences in this fascinating and horrifying collection of essays.

Multiculturalists and moral relativists beware: Dalrymple has spent too much time in this wasteland to accept fashionable theories about the liberating effects of free love, free drugs, and the absence of acceptable rules of behavior. The cast of characters he encountered in this dark and seamy carnival is unforgettable: tattooed skinheads with their malignant glares; terrified young Indian women returned by the authorities to murderous husbands; foreign doctors with their altruistic illusions shattered under obscene abuse from their welfare-state wards. In merrie England, attempted suicide is the most common cause of emergency-room admission for women.

Dalrymple describes the direct results of "enlightened" social policies propounded by elite academics and their followers who set governmental policy. The quality of education has collapsed, creating a vacuum to be filled by a corrosive popular culture. True self-esteem has been sapped by a nanny state that keeps body but not soul together. Public housing grows more violent, while the police become ever more tolerant of the criminal activity they have come to see as inevitable. Meanwhile, an ever-expanding class of criminologists and social theorists spin opaque theories of victimology to justify it all.

The epidemic is truly multicultural. British natives, blacks, Indians, and Muslims all have been infected, and the cancer is spreading into the middle classes. One need only witness the shocking behavior of formerly reserved British fans at soccer championships in Rome, where shouted obscenities and street violence are now the once-proper Englishman’s calling cards. The lifestyle of much of the upper class offers little hope of help. While the typical aristocrat can easily recover from a weekend binge, the underclass denizen who apes his behavior suffers generations of misery.

This is not a book for the faint-hearted. Dalrymple has real fear for the survival of England as a civilized nation. Memo to America: social policies propounded by academics and elites are bad for our national health.

See here for more.

32 posted on 01/04/2003 10:39:50 AM PST by Eala
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: mg39
You're right, but the problem is that people listen to this kind of crap. People don't like responsibility, as a rule. People tend to shirk it and always try to point the finger at someone else when things go wrong.

Nazism isn't about hating jews or mass murder or genocide, although it was certainly a means to an end--it was about shifting blame. Germany was in the toliet, and the people wanted someone to blame. France is to blame! They forced the Treaty of Versailles on the Germans. Economic ruin! But more, the Jews are to blame! The Jews have economic monopolies. They have invaded the country and crippled the German people through business and trade. The Jews live high on the hog while the Germans are starving in the streets. The Slavs are to blame! The Slavs occupy the Sudetenland and are denying Germany its natural resources. Germany cannot exist while the Slavs decry and choke the life out of the German people. The Americans and the British are to blame for the boycotts of German exports! The Americans and the British are trying to cripple the German people once and for all, trying to force Germany into ruin and wipe it from the Earth. Germany is not to blame! The Germanic people are the only truly great people, but we have been ruined by the Slavs, the French, the Jews, the Anglos! It is all their fault!

People like to hear they aren't at fault. People love to hear that their problems are the fault of someone else. It happens all the time in this country, even on this thread. Oh, it's not OUR fault, we have so many problems because of Mexicans. We don't have security issues, it's illegal immigrants from the Middle East that are at fault. People like to hear it. People believe it. People are suckers.
33 posted on 01/04/2003 10:44:20 AM PST by Viva Le Dissention
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Eala
Nice post. When I worked in the North Sea oilfields 20 years ago I asked a Brit why there were so few Brits working there. He said that although you made more working than on the dole, it wasn't much more, and besides, you had to work to get it. Everything you need to know about British attitudes right there.
34 posted on 01/04/2003 10:51:00 AM PST by Republic of Texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Viva Le Dissention
Yes, exactly. It's also worth pointing out that some people on FR speak of liberals/Democrats not as fellow Americans who hold a differing philosophy on how best to improve our shared nation, but instead in terms reminiscent of those used by the Nazis when discussing Jews. I do not hate liberals or Democrats, I simply disagree with them (often, but not always). Those who equate liberals, or Democrats, with evil are, IMHO, operating on the same level as the Nazis. And don't even get me started on the way some here discuss gays.

Excuse me while I don my flameproof clothing. ;)
35 posted on 01/04/2003 10:53:20 AM PST by mg39
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Republic of Texas
I can’t help thinking of the murder of psychiatric patients and the mentally disabled in Nazi Germany. Neither the public nor the medical profession protested to any great extent (though, instructively, those few doctors who did protest were not punished for it). This terrible crime was made possible, though not inevitable, by an entire cultural context.

Actually, while I do not desire to defend Germans in general or Nazis in particular, the fact is that this statement is not quite historically correct. The fact is that when the institutionalized did start getting killed off, their families did protest very loudly, and the Nazi regime did have to back off a bit. The Nazis did in fact proceed with their intentions, but they had to be a lot more quiet and deceptive about it than they had been initially. This same pattern of cover-up and deception was carried over into the "final solution" project against the Jews, which is a big reason why so many Jews put up so little resistance against being transported into the camps, and why most of the rest of the world -- including preposterously many Germans -- apparently were so surprised and shocked about the dimensions of the Holocaust when the truth finally became known, too late.

36 posted on 01/04/2003 10:59:48 AM PST by Stefan Stackhouse
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Viva Le Dissention
I agree with most of what you said, except that the illegal immigration problem is NOT the fault of illegal immigrants. It's ours for allowing it. Illegal immigrants will ruin our country, IF WE LET THEM.
37 posted on 01/04/2003 11:01:22 AM PST by Republic of Texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Viva Le Dissention
Defending our borders does not make us Nazi's, and you know that. Informed dissent is valuable, inane dissent is a waste of everyone's time.
38 posted on 01/04/2003 11:50:56 AM PST by Republic of Texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker
the Nazi regime was brutish to only the misfits of German society like Communists and Homoexuals, and to the Jews.

The Nazis were brutal to ANYONE who didn't slavishly lick their behinds, they outlawed every other political party and tortured, murdered or imprisoned the opposition. THEY DID NOT TARGET HOMOSEXUALS for imprisonment or death. The Nazi leadership was not only well-larded with sodomists and pederasts, but their philosphy was founded on homosexual/militarist wackos, up to and including Neitzche. Hitler opened a temple to Neitzche. If you want to know more of the link between homosexual theory, behavior, and the rise of the Nazis, please read The Pink Swastika - on line at http://www.abidingtruth.com/

Homosexual revisionist historians want to present themselves as equal opportunity victims alongside the Jews but it is a lie.

39 posted on 01/04/2003 1:11:05 PM PST by First Amendment
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Eala
Other disenfranchised groups including the homosexuals Please see my previous post. Homosexuals were not only not disenfranchised, they were ofte the disnefranchisers.
40 posted on 01/04/2003 1:16:16 PM PST by First Amendment
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: mg39
Those who equate liberals, or Democrats, with evil are, IMHO, operating on the same level as the Nazis

I think you're missing the vital difference between liberal/leftism and conservatism. Liberalism/leftism is based on secular humanism, in which the determination of right and wrong, good and evil, is the human mind. One human mind will of course not be the same as another human mind, so whichever person or group of people has the most power gets to say what is right and what is wrong. Therefore liberalism/leftism always leads to more and more control and ultiamtely to totalitarianism.

True conservatism, as exemplified by the founders of this country, based their concepts of right and wrong on essentail spiritually based morality - the Judeo-Christian foundation. This is theism based absolute vision of right and wrong and in reality transcends sectarianism. Once this is overthrown, as it is being overthrown now, the road leads directly to Stalin, Hitler, etc. The liberal - and libertarian cry of "you can't legalize morality" is nonsense because all law is dealing with moral behavior. What the libs mean is "let me have the kind of sex I want."

41 posted on 01/04/2003 1:28:33 PM PST by First Amendment
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson