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NFL: Giants would have been flagged if they spiked it
AP Via ESPN ^ | 1-6-03 | ANON

Posted on 01/06/2003 11:48:10 AM PST by Pharmboy

NEW YORK -- Giants holder Matt Allen could not have spiked the botched snap on the final play of New York's loss to the San Francisco 49ers.

It's against the rules.

Mike Pereira, the NFL supervisor of officials, confirmed Monday that Allen would not have been allowed to immediately spike the ball because it was a long snap. The only time a player can spike the ball is when he takes the snap from under the center.

With six seconds left Sunday and the Giants trailing 39-38, Matt Bryant lined up to try a potential game-winning 41-yard field goal. The snap from newly signed Trey Junkin was in the dirt. Allen fumbled the ball, then made a desperation pass downfield to what turned out to be an ineligible receiver, guard Rich Seubert.

Fox commentator Cris Collinsworth said at the time that since it was third down, Allen could have spiked the ball, giving the Giants another chance at a kick. Afterward, on the Fox postgame show, other commentators agreed.

Pereira said the only other option would have been to throw to an eligible receiver.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: New York
KEYWORDS: choke; football; giants; playoffs; rules
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I thought this was an interesting obscure football rule.
1 posted on 01/06/2003 11:48:10 AM PST by Pharmboy
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To: Pharmboy
I'm glad I read this because the FOX announcer led me to believe that the holder pulled a boner by not spiking the errant snap.
2 posted on 01/06/2003 11:50:09 AM PST by Fred Mertz
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To: Pharmboy; justshutupandtakeit
What would the penalty have been?
3 posted on 01/06/2003 11:51:01 AM PST by hchutch
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To: Pharmboy
This is true, but if he got outside the box, and threw past the line of scrimmage they would've been able to run another down. Unfortunately time was up, so no dice. Had he threw it while still in the box, it would've been intentional grounding, and the game would still be over.

Any given Sunday...... man I love the NFL!
4 posted on 01/06/2003 11:53:01 AM PST by walkingdead
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To: Pharmboy
Everey time collingsworth opens his mouth , i want to stuff it with dogs#$%. The guy is of Joe Theisman caliper. Loves to hear himself speak but irritates everyone who has to listen to him. It has casued me to listen to radio broadcasts this year because of his move over to the playbooth.
5 posted on 01/06/2003 11:53:01 AM PST by robjna
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To: hchutch
Intentional grounding, which marks the ball at the spot of the foul and might still include a 5 second count off inside the two minute warning.
6 posted on 01/06/2003 11:53:16 AM PST by discostu
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To: Pharmboy
Pereira said the only other option would have been to throw to an eligible receiver.

Two points: Go back to the olden days, before spiking was allowed: All he had to do was throw at the feet of an eligible receiver (something QBs frequently do when a screen gets busted up--you don't want the guy to catch it and lose yardage).

Secondly: Okay, he spikes it. Illegal forward pass. 5 yards and loss of down. Because he does it so quickly, there's time left on the clock. They get another shot. That's preferable to what did happened.

Pet peeve: Coaches who let the clock tick down to 4 or so seconds for the game-winning or game-tying FG. If you leave 7 seconds on the clock then if something goes wrong and it's not 4th down, you can throw the ball away (or kneel and call TO if you have a time out left).

And if your offensive line doesn't have 7 men on the line and the flag drops, you get another play because there's two seconds left (if the clock runs out, you're SOL, game *can* end on an offensive penalty).

What the coaches are saying is that they're worried about 2 seconds being left on the clock and a Cal-Stanford type of KO return to end the game.

Okay, what's more likely? A Cal-Stanford (or Tennessee/Buffalo) type play, a once in a lifetime play that will be talked about for generations, or a team committing a penalty or botching a snap? I think the latter is a bit more probable. If a team has the chance, they should kick end-of-game FGs with 7-8 seconds left, then squib the kickoff rather than letting the clock run down to the last play.

7 posted on 01/06/2003 11:54:15 AM PST by Numbers Guy
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To: Pharmboy
Okay, so Cris Collinsworth sometimes says some crazy/stupid things, but didn't the Giants have a timeout left? Why couldn't he have gotten tackled, and call a timeout? He still would have had 1 or 2 seconds left. OR, why couldn't he have thrown an incomplete pass out of bounds, and/or then used a time out/kill the clock. In either case, why try for a field goal on third down if you don't expect to have another chance on fourth down if something goes wrong I.E bad snap, etc...
8 posted on 01/06/2003 11:55:21 AM PST by rs79bm
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To: Pharmboy
Allen could have fallen on the ball, called timeout with :02 OR :03 left and then set up a re-kick on 4th down.

That is what Collingsworth missed.

9 posted on 01/06/2003 11:56:12 AM PST by ewing
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To: Fred Mertz
I thought the same thing -- but I couldn't believe that the special teams coach would not have reminded them all what to do in case of a bad snap (esp. since it was a new guy and had muffed an earlier snap) -- there's no way he would have let them out onto the field without telling them all exactly what to do -- an ST coach would know what situations in which they could spike it or not -- but then, the ineligible man downfield was surprising to me...special teams practice a "fire drill" all the time-- he should have known better ! Truth be told--the Giants blew the game for a lot of reasons, including losing their cool way too often
10 posted on 01/06/2003 11:56:28 AM PST by twyn1
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To: Numbers Guy
Go back to the olden days, before spiking was allowed: All he had to do was throw at the feet of an eligible receiver (something QBs frequently do when a screen gets busted up--you don't want the guy to catch it and lose yardage).

One more point: It's inexcusable for a team *not* to have something ready for such a situation. WHY were ineligible receivers running downfield after a botched snap? There is absolutely no reason for them to do so, it's just inviting a penalty.

11 posted on 01/06/2003 11:56:36 AM PST by Numbers Guy
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To: discostu
Intentional grounding, which marks the ball at the spot of the foul and might still include a 5 second count off inside the two minute warning.

I thought it was a 10-second count off, which would have ended the game anyway.

12 posted on 01/06/2003 11:57:42 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: robjna
I did not know Theisman made measuring devices? I find all commentators of Pro Football annoying. The only announcer I love to hear is......"Whoah Nellie" And he does college ball.
13 posted on 01/06/2003 11:57:48 AM PST by blackdog
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To: hchutch
Probably intentional grounding, with a 10 second run off of the clock.

This game absolutely killed me yesterday. The worst Giants loss in my lifetime, worse than Piscarchek, worse than the debacle against Minnesota in 97. Worse than any pasting, blow out, blown lead, divisional loss etc. WORST EVER!

Thank goodness I have 6 months to recover

14 posted on 01/06/2003 11:57:55 AM PST by amused
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To: robjna
Everey time collingsworth opens his mouth , i want to stuff it with dogs#$%.

He missed the spike thing because he was too busy concentrating on kissing Jeremy Shockey's butt the whole game.

OK, Shockey is pretty good (but a jerk). But I got tired of the announcers telling me about it on every play.

15 posted on 01/06/2003 11:58:55 AM PST by Mannaggia l'America
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To: discostu
Intentional grounding, which marks the ball at the spot of the foul and might still include a 5 second count off inside the two minute warning.

Which still would have left about three ticks on the clock. Collinsworth can be stupid, but not completely. The question is whether or not the kicker could have handled a field goal from that far back.

In any event, the calls in both games yesterday were downright pathetic. The fighting from both the Niners and the Giants down the strech was not only unconscionable, but hopefully fineable. I hope those officials get fined by the League office as well - stupid stuff like not calling a delay of game (in the Steelers-Browns game) on Cleveland was nuts (and I wanted the Browns to win!), and I won't even go into that mess at Candlestick.

At least there was decent competition yesterday (as opposed to the Falcons and Jets blow-outs on Saturday).

16 posted on 01/06/2003 11:59:07 AM PST by mhking
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To: robjna
Everey time collingsworth opens his mouth , i want to stuff it with dogs#$%.

I agree. I was happy when Fox NFL Sunday threw him off. However, I was disappointed to see that he then became a commentator. I sometimes watch that NFL show on HBO, and everytime this guy speaks you feel that the other guests want to get up and pummel him. He is rather annoying. Actually, he is an embarassment.
17 posted on 01/06/2003 11:59:42 AM PST by rs79bm
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To: robjna
Everey time collingsworth opens his mouth , i want to stuff it with dogs#$%.

I agree. I was happy when Fox NFL Sunday threw him off. However, I was disappointed to see that he then became a commentator. I sometimes watch that NFL show on HBO, and everytime this guy speaks you feel that the other guests want to get up and pummel him. He is rather annoying. Actually, he is an embarassment.
18 posted on 01/06/2003 11:59:49 AM PST by rs79bm
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To: Pharmboy
Bottom line - Giants players/player choked when the game was on the line.

We'll take it!

Great Game for another Great 49ers QB!

19 posted on 01/06/2003 12:00:02 PM PST by CyberCowboy777
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To: robjna
I am with you 100% There is a whole flock of these loudmouths who instead of reporting the game tell me, and everyone else who is watching, before and after each play what the teams need to do to suceed. It's getting distracting.
20 posted on 01/06/2003 12:00:17 PM PST by UB355
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To: rs79bm
Because the kick was already coming from the outside of their kickers range (he'd already missed one from 1 yard further out). Taking the tackle moves everything back 7 or so yards. Throwing an incomplete pass out of bound while inside "the box" is intentional grounding. A poster above really hit was his best option was, throw it to the feet of the guy on the outside left of the line, he's an elligible receiver, and as long as there's a snowballs chance in hell a pass could be caught they'll never call it intentional grounding. Also not running around like an idiot and hoovering up clock would have been a good idea. No matter how you slice it he did the absolute wrong thing in that circumstance.
21 posted on 01/06/2003 12:00:40 PM PST by discostu
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To: CyberCowboy777
Enjoy it now, because it all ends for you next week in Tampa.
22 posted on 01/06/2003 12:02:15 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: robjna
Everey time collingsworth opens his mouth , i want to stuff it with dogs#$%.
He spent his entire career as a Bengal. Competence is a foreign concept to him.

-Eric

23 posted on 01/06/2003 12:02:27 PM PST by E Rocc
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To: UB355
Did you hear ol' Bret Mushburger on Saturday. The game is going on and he's there reminensing about Sid Gilman. With all due respect to Sid, CALL THE GAME. Don't go walking down memory lane DURING a play. I finally had to shout at the TV "SHUT UP, BRET!" I doubt he heard me.
24 posted on 01/06/2003 12:03:37 PM PST by CougarGA7
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To: robjna
Speaking of radio guys, Brad Sham rocks.
I am glad JJones got him back on our local broadcasts.
25 posted on 01/06/2003 12:03:44 PM PST by dtel
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To: dfwgator
All for not, because this is the year of the Raiders. They got robbed last year, and this year they're here to make things right.
26 posted on 01/06/2003 12:04:22 PM PST by walkingdead
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To: mhking
I enjoyed watching both games yesterday -- even tho' I wasn't rooting for the Steelers, it was really exciting ! That poor Browns guy (Andre King??) struggling to make it back to his feet and stretching in a vain attempt to get the ball over the sideline as the seconds ticked off was so dramatic -- I could hear the "Chariots of Fire" music in my head as they showed it in slo-mo
27 posted on 01/06/2003 12:04:32 PM PST by twyn1
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To: discostu
That's what happens when you have to constantly shuffle in new snappers and kickers. Personally I'd love to see the kicking game removed from football. There's nothing worse than 300-pound warriors going at it for 59 minutes, only to have the game decided by some little foreigner who comes on the field saying, "I'm gonna kick a touchdown."
28 posted on 01/06/2003 12:04:43 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: Numbers Guy
"Secondly: Okay, he spikes it. Illegal forward pass. 5 yards and loss of down. Because he does it so quickly, there's time left on the clock. They get another shot. That's preferable to what did happened."

They get another shot to botch the snap? Have Matt Bryant kick another wounded duck from Fillmore Street?
29 posted on 01/06/2003 12:05:25 PM PST by BaghdadBarney
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To: hchutch
What would the penalty have been?

Whatever, plus a 10 second runoff because it would have been an offensive penalty in the final two minutes.

30 posted on 01/06/2003 12:05:26 PM PST by HIDEK6
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To: dfwgator
I'll take what they give me! LOL

This isn't the eighties or even the nineties, but it only takes a small event to change the course of human endeavors.
31 posted on 01/06/2003 12:05:46 PM PST by CyberCowboy777
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To: dfwgator
What I don't understand is why a team calls a timeout to "Ice" the kicker. Hell, the guy has been sitting on his butt for the last half hour. How are you going to rattle the guy.

Kickers aren't really football players, that's why they sit on the bench ALONE.

32 posted on 01/06/2003 12:06:36 PM PST by CougarGA7
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To: dfwgator
There's nothing worse than 300-pound warriors going at it for 59 minutes, only to have the game decided by some little foreigner who comes on the field saying, "I'm gonna kick a touchdown."

Man I'm LMAO over here!

33 posted on 01/06/2003 12:06:43 PM PST by walkingdead
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To: discostu
Would anyone here agree with me that one of the mistakes the New Jersey Dwarfs made was have a punter take the snap vice having the back-up QB. Do punters know who to throw to? Back up QB's should know.
34 posted on 01/06/2003 12:06:43 PM PST by 7thson
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To: mhking
stupid stuff like not calling a delay of game (in the Steelers-Browns game) on Cleveland was nuts...

Seemed to me there were a couple of plays where the Browns were given a 47 second clock....and they used all 47 seconds. ;o)

After this weekend, I'm kinda hoping we get a 17-14 type of game this upcoming weekend.....maybe Pitt vs. Tenn.
35 posted on 01/06/2003 12:07:38 PM PST by mr.pink
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To: walkingdead
Actually I think that quote came from Alex Karras.
36 posted on 01/06/2003 12:08:02 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: ewing
Shockey could have used his super powers to taunt the clock, causing it to stop dead in fear. Shockey could have then lined up under center, thrown the ball into the outer atmosphere where in an earlier time warp his blazing speed opened up giving him an opportunity to catch his own pass in the end zone upon it's return to earth. As a matter of fact, next year the entire team and coaching staff of the Giants can stay at home and just let Shockey play. He can just put on a cape and fly to each venue, landing mid-field just in time for the coin toss.
37 posted on 01/06/2003 12:08:40 PM PST by blackdog
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To: Pharmboy
Did the Jints have any timeouts left? Can anyone but the QB take a knee? If the answer is yes, then obviously that would be the thing to do and give the kicker another, albeit longer, shot. Anything with a penalty is NG because of the time runoff thingie. Heaving a desperation pass to a bunch of guys who just scattered downfield seems like a panicky thing to try (e.g., Garo).

But, bottom line, the Jints defense froze. Did they lay down or what? But give the niners their props, though. They didn't quit. Its a starnge game, sometimes, and as long as there's time on the clock, anything can happen (like the Fiesta Bowl - yes!).

38 posted on 01/06/2003 12:08:45 PM PST by chimera
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To: CougarGA7
Simply cannot stand Mushberger, what a pompous ass.
39 posted on 01/06/2003 12:09:05 PM PST by dtel
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To: mhking
There were only 6 seconds on the clock when the ball was snapped, if the bad snap-control-stand up-spike takes more than 1 second (plus whatever fraction of a second was there that the NFL doesn't show... I love that BTW) then the 5 second count off ends the game. But don't quote me, I'm not sure the 5 second count off is still there.

I think the missed delay of game penalty was the result of two things: 1 - the Browns had been called for it a lot already, I think even the refs were having a hard time believing these guys were so bad at counting to 45; 2 - "all star" refing squads, the NFL assembles reffing squads for the playoffs from "the best" in the league during the regular season (where they work as a unit, same 8 guys for 17 weeks) you see a lot of confusion as refs are used to guy X looking for "that" but guy X isn't there. I'd bet none of the 8 zebras on the field in Pittsburgh were the designated clock watcher for their group. The Steelers did a good job of pointing it out most of the time though ;)
40 posted on 01/06/2003 12:09:05 PM PST by discostu
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To: 7thson
"Do punters know who to throw to? Back up QB's should know."

Just look for your color and a number in the 80's and you should be fine.
41 posted on 01/06/2003 12:09:12 PM PST by walkingdead
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To: Mannaggia l'America
When it comes to gushing and fawning by the announcers, Shockey is the new Favre.
42 posted on 01/06/2003 12:09:47 PM PST by clintonh8r
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To: mhking; discostu; amused; justshutupandtakeit
So, speaking of strange calls, what would the call be on this play:

Steelers vs. Bears, Steelers' ball on the Bears' 43, Bears up 24-20. Kordell Stewart, in relief of Tommy Maddox, takes the snap under center, and hands it off to Bettis, who hands it off to Randle-El in a reverse. Randle-El then fires a forward pass to Stewart, who catches it, and takes it to the end zone as time runs out in the 4th quarter.

As much as I'd hate to say it, it looks as if the Bears have lost this one in a heartbreaker. Am I right?
43 posted on 01/06/2003 12:10:09 PM PST by hchutch
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To: walkingdead
"[The Raiders] got robbed last year."

Oh please. I'm sick of all the Raiders fans (half of whom are rented out every week from San Quentin) still crying about the Snow Bowl last year. Get over it! Your boys now have a chance to prove their not a washed-up collection of Leisure World retirees. The Raiders had their chance after that silly little play and couldn't close the game out. End of story.
44 posted on 01/06/2003 12:10:39 PM PST by BaghdadBarney
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To: robjna
Theisman would be tolerable if he didn't keep trying to predict plays. Not only does it take away from the game, he's terrible at it.
45 posted on 01/06/2003 12:11:08 PM PST by jz638
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To: walkingdead
The Raiders will choke as usual- this year to the Jets.

GO BRONCOS (Although I am a J-E-T-S fan this week!)
46 posted on 01/06/2003 12:11:10 PM PST by ThinkingMan
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To: chimera
Oops. Typo. Sorry...

starnge --> strange

47 posted on 01/06/2003 12:11:28 PM PST by chimera
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To: blackdog
Like I said...Jeremy is apparetly the next Brett-boy...
48 posted on 01/06/2003 12:12:06 PM PST by clintonh8r
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To: blackdog
Curt Gowdy and Charlie Jones were great. Joe Buck always says "nasty"...he's annoying.

THey could have rekicked a billion billion times and that kicker would STILL have missed it, he is AWFUL.

49 posted on 01/06/2003 12:12:15 PM PST by Benrand
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To: 7thson
Many teams are using the punter as a holder now. The qbs are a rarity on kicks.
50 posted on 01/06/2003 12:13:17 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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