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Episcopalian leader lashes out at Bush for 'reprehensible' policy (the world right to loathe us)
Newark Star Ledger ^ | 1/14/03 | KEVIN ECKSTROM

Posted on 01/14/2003 10:04:43 AM PST by Incorrigible

Episcopalian leader lashes out at Bush for 'reprehensible' policy

Tuesday, January 14, 2003
BY KEVIN ECKSTROM
RELIGION NEWS SERVICE

WASHINGTON -- The top bishop of the Episcopal Church, in a stinging rebuke of American foreign policy, said the United States is rightly "hated and loathed" around the world for its "reprehensible" rhetoric and blind eye toward poverty and suffering.

"I'd like to be able to go somewhere in the world and not have to apologize for being from the United States," Presiding Bishop Frank T. Griswold 3rd said Friday in an interview with Religion News Service.

Griswold, head of the 2.3million-member church, blasted the Bush administration for its wartime rhetoric, especially labeling Iran, Iraq and North Korea an "axis of evil."

"Quite apart from the bombs we drop, words are weapons and we have used our language so unwisely, so intemperately, so thoughtlessly ... that I'm not surprised we are hated and loathed everywhere I go," he said.

The increasing likelihood of a U.S.-led attack on Iraq also drew strong criticism yesterday from Pope John Paul II, who argued that military force should be used only as "the very last option" -- and then only under certain conditions.

Amid a buildup of U.S. forces in the Persian Gulf, John Paul urged political leaders to step up their diplomatic efforts to avoid war, which he said would only harm ordinary Iraqis "already sorely tried" by 12 years of U.N. sanctions.

"War is not always inevitable. It is always a defeat for humanity," the pope told Vatican-based diplomats in his annual speech on issues of concern to the Roman Catholic Church.

"As the charter of the United Nations organization and international law itself remind us, war cannot be decided upon, even when it is a matter of ensuring the common good, except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions, without ignoring the consequences for the civilian population both during and after the military operations."

It was the pope's strongest message yet in opposition to war, and it was the first time since the crisis erupted that he has publicly mentioned Iraq by name.

Griswold has spoken early and often against war with Iraq, arguing, along many other religious leaders, that a pre-emptive strike against Saddam Hussein fails to meet the necessary criteria for a just war.

Griswold conceded that religious opposition to the war has failed to resonate at the White House, especially "if indeed everyone is praying and invoking God here and there as they struggle to make these decisions."

He said Bush is "inviting" trouble from the other points on the "axis of evil" -- Iran and North Korea -- with his bellicose rhetoric, although Griswold said the president is "hardly dealing with paragons of virtue" in either case.

Bush has consulted with religious leaders, including Griswold, throughout his term but generally has enjoyed cozier relations with evangelical Protestants, who tend to be more supportive of the president's domestic and foreign policy.

White House spokeswoman Mercy Viana said the president is committed to humanitarian aid in Afghanistan and North Korea and working with the United Nations to disarm Iraq.

"Our national security depends on success in the war on terrorism, which includes military, judicial, diplomatic, financial and humanitarian actions, both at home and abroad," she said. "Our goal is to protect the American people and shape a future of peace."

While he has tried to avoid "shouting and screaming," the 65-year-old prelate has stepped up his verbal tempo in pointed rebukes of how the United States treats the rest of the world, particularly with its money.

Speaking Sunday at the Washington National Cathedral to mark his fifth anniversary as presiding bishop, Griswold said American reluctance to spend more on AIDS in Africa is "a manifestation of evil" and a "form of sin from which we as a nation are called to repent."

Griswold said the AIDS pandemic poses a far graver security threat to the United States by spawning a generation of orphans who live in abject poverty in fragile African democracies.

"We are loathed, and I think the world has every right to loathe us, because they see us as greedy, self-interested and almost totally unconcerned about poverty, disease and suffering," he said.

In a follow-up conversation, Griswold softened his criticisms, putting them in more nuanced terms. He said the "last thing" he wants to do is demonize either the president or the larger government.

"My sense is that we have been so abundantly blessed as a nation that it's all the more incumbent upon us that we share those blessing with others," he said. "God's concern is for the world and not simply for a nation. ... Too often we narrow down faith to serve our own immediate concerns and national interests."

In many ways, Griswold reserved his strongest condemnations for what he sees as a disconnect between the country's God-talk and the values of the Christian gospel, which emphasize care for the poor, the downtrodden and the hungry.

"If these are God's values and we claim to be a nation under God, then we better take them seriously, or we better take the words away and say it's a joke, or it's a piece of decoration."

Diane Knippers, president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, a conservative think tank that monitors the mainline churches, called Griswold's remarks "extremist" and unhelpful.

"I can go places and talk to people who do not admire the United States, but I also go places where it's clear that people admire us," Knippers said. "We are still the nation where people are constantly knocking at the door to get in."

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Not for commercial use.  For educational and discussion purposes only.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aids; bush; catholic; catholiclist; dianeknippers; episcopalchurch; episcopalian; griswold; iraq; mercyviana; newjersey; nj; peace; pope; starledger; twistedknickers; un; vatican; war
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So according to Bishop Griswald, it's more "Godly" of the US to let the people of Iraq suffer under the oppression of a tyrant.  To let Saddam Hussein take the money we do give him and spend it on palaces and weapons of war than on food and medical supplies for his people.  It's better to let Iraq be a safe haven for terrorists and the suffering of ordinary Iraqi Muslims to be an inspiration for America hating by the wicked of the world.

The US is already the largest donor and the largest donor per capita of foreign aid.  Yes, some of it is to help the righteous of the world defend themselves and their freedom from an Islamic onslaught (ie Israel) with weapons and intelligence but much of it goes to education and medical assistance for which we are resented for our generosity.

I don't expect Bishop Griswald or the Pope to come out singing "Onward Christian Soldiers" (though it would be nice) but at least the Pope simply reminded the world of the principles of a Just War and didn't come out and lambaste the President and the American people who support him and his actions.

We have a right to self defense and President Bush labeling Iran, Iraq and North Korea was probably more pragmatic and prescient.

1 posted on 01/14/2003 10:04:43 AM PST by Incorrigible
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To: RonF; valkyrieanne
A special bump for you. :-)
2 posted on 01/14/2003 10:05:25 AM PST by Incorrigible
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To: *Catholic_list; sinkspur; Askel5; Campion; Arthur McGowan; Aquinasfan; ELS; patent; Romulus; ...
Bump
3 posted on 01/14/2003 10:06:46 AM PST by Incorrigible
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: Incorrigible
What the H*** is going on? Is the Episcopal Church now part of the Left? Stupid question, probably.
5 posted on 01/14/2003 10:12:49 AM PST by Sam Cree
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: Incorrigible
"I'd like to be able to go somewhere in the world and not have to apologize for being from the United States," Presiding Bishop Frank T. Griswold 3rd said Friday in an interview with Religion News Service.

Ask us if we really give a ****.

7 posted on 01/14/2003 10:15:23 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: Incorrigible
"I'd like to be able to go somewhere in the world and not have to apologize for being from the United States," Presiding Bishop Frank T. Griswold 3rd said Friday...

This says more about him than it does about U.S. foreign policy or about the President.

8 posted on 01/14/2003 10:16:42 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: Incorrigible; aculeus; general_re; BlueLancer; hellinahandcart
"I'd like to be able to go somewhere in the world and not have to apologize for being from the United States," Presiding Bishop Frank T. Griswold 3rd said Friday in an interview with Religion News Service.

Idiot, find some country more to your liking and STAY there.

9 posted on 01/14/2003 10:21:03 AM PST by dighton
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To: Sam Cree
Is the Episcopal Church now part of the Left? Stupid question, probably.

Positively Van Winklian.

10 posted on 01/14/2003 10:22:17 AM PST by trad_anglican
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To: Incorrigible
I was an Eiscopalian for over 20 years. Reading about John Spong made me wonder. And then when one Rector said, "The Bible is not the word of God, but a history of man's effort to find God" I wondered more.
At a Bible conference I told this story to Fred Smith and his comment was, "No, the Bible is God's effort to find man".

Finally when my 12 year old son, on the day of his confirmation, came home from the service, and said that most of those kids all dressed in white did not believe anything, I stopped wondering and started making plans to leave. My 12 year old son really started the exodus by stating that he was going to start going to a Bible believing church.

Bishop John Spong said we had to do away with many "icons" such as the ressurection and physical body ascension.

That was almost 20 years ago and the Eiscopal church is still sliging down into meaningless.
11 posted on 01/14/2003 10:26:38 AM PST by bobg (Bob G.)
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To: Incorrigible
The Episcopal Church is not so slowly fading away. This is one of the reasons why (among many others).
12 posted on 01/14/2003 10:29:41 AM PST by yendu bwam
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To: dighton
"I'd like to be able to go somewhere in the world and not have to apologize for being from the United States," Presiding Bishop Frank T. Griswold 3rd said Friday in an interview with Religion News Service.
(All because Wally-World was closed?) Believe me, Bishop, we apologize for you being from the U.S., too. I believe there are pulpits available in Mecca, Baghdad, Islamabad, Cairo, ...
13 posted on 01/14/2003 10:31:27 AM PST by talleyman
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To: trad_anglican
"Positively Van Winklian."

Hey! though I guess you are right, the National Council of Churches is clearly a leftist force. I suppose the Episcopal Church belongs. Just hadn't realized they were so completely gone over to the "dark side."

14 posted on 01/14/2003 10:32:52 AM PST by Sam Cree
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To: Incorrigible
"I'd like to be able to go somewhere in the world and not have to apologize for being from the United States," Presiding Bishop Frank T. Griswold"

Well, Mr. Griswold (I will withhold the title), who says you have to apologize for being from the U.S.? Get a spine and tell the jerks who demand that you do that it's not of their damn business.

Either that or move to a country where you can be 'proud'.

15 posted on 01/14/2003 10:35:35 AM PST by MEGoody
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To: Incorrigible
The episcopal church left me 40 years ago. In the 30's and 40's I attended sunday school, confirmation classes sang in the youth choir, and served the altar until 1950.The book of common prayer was the guide to the service, but that was tossed aside.This church is on a downslide,with no stop insight.
16 posted on 01/14/2003 10:36:37 AM PST by retiredtexan
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To: Incorrigible
Beware the false prophets!!
17 posted on 01/14/2003 10:38:35 AM PST by Chi-townChief
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To: talleyman
A little visit from Christy Brinkley would help his mood.
18 posted on 01/14/2003 10:43:29 AM PST by Deb
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To: retiredtexan
The Book of Common Prayer is still the guide to the service, at least in my parish. Every word is right out of it, or the Bible, or the hymnal. I'm in our choir, and the anthems we sing generally take their text from Scripture as well.

Other parishes may not do the same, but I have no experience in other parishes other than the one I'm in.
19 posted on 01/14/2003 10:58:38 AM PST by RonF
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To: Incorrigible
Ahhh, the Episcopalians. Why don't they just stick to the ordination of lesbian priests and the promotion good old-fashioned anti-Christian values instead of involving themselves in world politics? Makes you pine for the good old days when Episopalians merely had to worry about whether or not the transgendered practicioner of bestiality could serve on the Potluck Committee...
20 posted on 01/14/2003 11:01:37 AM PST by egarvue (Martin Sheen is not my president...)
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To: Incorrigible
Frankly speaking, Frank old bean, I'd like to be able to walk among my fellow Christians without having to apologize for the fact the my church's Presiding Bishop is a complete moron. That's you, you know. A giant embarrassment.
21 posted on 01/14/2003 11:02:07 AM PST by Snickersnee
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To: Incorrigible
Perhaps if these so-called "religious leaders" were anything more than "whited sepulchres" of political correctness they would be growing at the fantastic rate enjoyed by the evangelical protestants and their world view would be more in line with that of Christian principle than Maoist theory.

22 posted on 01/14/2003 11:03:59 AM PST by prov1813man
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To: Incorrigible
What a joker. If the Episcopal Church doesn't shape up pretty soon, they'll be goners. Too bad. It used to be a pretty good denomination.
23 posted on 01/14/2003 11:04:33 AM PST by Marysecretary
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To: dighton
I'd like him to go someplace where he doesn't have to apologize for being from the United States, too.

Someplace remote, where the subject never even comes up.
24 posted on 01/14/2003 11:04:41 AM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: Sam Cree
In our town, the academics are most likely to be Episcopalians. Answer your own question...
25 posted on 01/14/2003 11:05:12 AM PST by Marysecretary
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To: bobg
I grew up in the Episcopal church, back in the 50s-60s.
It was great and beautiful then...I cry for what they are doing now, and I no longer attend...
26 posted on 01/14/2003 11:08:34 AM PST by AlexW
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To: Incorrigible
Thanks! I've been following Bp. Griswold's opinions on the Episcopal Church's web site. I do share his opinion that there's plenty to criticize about Bush's foreign policy, but I don't see much criticism regarding the actions of Saddam Hussein. OTOH, his criticisms of Israel seem to be balanced by criticisms of the Palestinian leadership as well. He's reacting greatly to the suffering he sees, but not enough I think to the causes.
27 posted on 01/14/2003 11:09:27 AM PST by RonF
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To: dighton
"I'd like to be able to go somewhere in the world and not have to apologize for being from the United States," Presiding Bishop Frank T. Griswold 3rd said

And soon, you will wish you could go somewhere in the US without being pointed out as a predictably leftist dimwit.

These people do not strike me as representing any religion whatsoever, other than Marxism dressed up as "progressive like progressivism, man". And they should be publicly treated as such.

I once emailed a stinging reply to one nitwit pastor's diatribe against America published in our UMC church newsletter right after 9/11 - and emailed it to the entire alternative service's choir and band which I was participating in. You should have seen that pompous little Clymer backtrack in his hastily put-together emailed reply to the same addressee's I emailed (took him until 2:40 in the morning to put it all together and send it...heh-heh).

I have no respect for these fashionable idiots - and feel that they need to be confronted everytime they mouth off with their traitorous, socialist drivel.

28 posted on 01/14/2003 11:10:08 AM PST by guitfiddlist
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To: Sam Cree
"What the H*** is going on? Is the Episcopal Church now part of the Left? Stupid question, probably."

Sam.... while our heads were turned . . .

The Episcopalian Church Began Ordaining Homosexuals

Historically the Episcopal Church has been more receptive to gay worshipers than many other Christian denominations.

They welcome gay and lesbian members, ordain non-practicing homosexuals, and participate in anti-hate programs. They do not, however, perform same-sex union ceremonies.

29 posted on 01/14/2003 11:11:26 AM PST by Happy2BMe
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To: rabidone
"Get real- Saddam has been oppressing his people since he took over in the 80's and we weren't concerned unitl he threatened Kuwaiti oil reserves in '91. There is nothing humanitarian in our interest and with good reason- if we went out trying to save every oppressed people across the globe we'd never be done fighting. Our interest in Iraq is directly or indirectly connected to oil as, like it or not, oil is like oxygen or water- in our present circumstance it is necessary for our survival."

I agree 100%. We don't really give a shit about the people in Iraq. They could have rebelled against their tyrant leader, but they didn't. As far as the oil goes, that's a good enough reason to go to war if you ask me. This whole operation is just an excuse to get our own gas station. And I say F*ckn' a bubba.
30 posted on 01/14/2003 11:14:29 AM PST by strider44
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To: dighton; general_re; BlueLancer; hellinahandcart
"We are I am loathed, and I think the world Americans [have] every right to loathe us me, because they see us me as a pompous over-bearing anti-American windbag.
31 posted on 01/14/2003 11:14:29 AM PST by aculeus
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To: bobg
Bishop Spong has said a lot of things, but that doesn't mean that such is Episcopalian doctrine.
32 posted on 01/14/2003 11:18:08 AM PST by RonF
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To: dighton; aculeus
He could always go to HELL; Satan is completely indifferent to apologies.
33 posted on 01/14/2003 11:42:01 AM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: RonF
"his criticisms of Israel seem to be balanced by criticisms of the Palestinian leadership"

Finding moral equivalency between the outright hatred and murder of the Palestinians and the efforts at self defense of the Israelis is truly abhorrent.

I grew up an Episcopalian, but if this guy is representative, and I think his being top bishop means he is, am glad no longer to be one. It's going to be very hard to convince me that the guy is not a leftist.

34 posted on 01/14/2003 11:49:23 AM PST by Sam Cree
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To: Happy2BMe
Heck, even the RCC will formally ordain non-practicing homosexuals. In practice, they've been doing a lot worse than that.
35 posted on 01/14/2003 11:52:34 AM PST by RonF
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To: Sam Cree
I'm not going to try to convince you that this guy is not a leftist! I have no problem with Israeli self-defense, and self-defense against suicide/murderers requires radical efforts. But I think that there have been measures that they've taken that were beyond self-defense and have been counter-productive to peace. For example, bulldozing Arafat's compound around him only built up Arafat's image and allowed him to stay in power when it was starting to look as though he was losing influence. I think that both Sharon and Arafat talk peace but seek subjugation or annihilation of the other side.
36 posted on 01/14/2003 11:56:16 AM PST by RonF
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To: Marysecretary
Looks like another of the places all the 60's radicals went when they "grew up," and I use that term advisedly, has been into the clergy. That is, aside from into academia, media, the arts and politics.
37 posted on 01/14/2003 11:58:57 AM PST by Sam Cree
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To: Incorrigible
I heard much the same anger and hysteria from a liberal Presbyterian preacher a couple of weeks ago. They sense they are losing power and, like Senate Democrats, they're flipping out about it.

The last Lambeth Conference the liberals from America and Britain were outvoted by pro-life conservatives from the Third World. In the Presbyterian Church, a proposal to allow gay ordination in the US was voted down 3-1. The National Council of Churches is bankrupt and ignored. They were shocked Gore lost in 2000. The loss of the Senate in 2002, Bush's popularity and upcoming war with Iraq has them apoplectic.

As their power continues to ebb and their denominations lose members, they'll get worse.

38 posted on 01/14/2003 12:11:35 PM PST by colorado tanker
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To: dighton
The real answer here for the Bishop...is simply don't apologize. If you stood there in Bavaria in 1923 and grasped what a danger Hitler was at that point...and could figure out that he might kill millions...would you kill the dimwit right there on the street or simply apologize later for giving Hitler the benifit of a doubt...and walk away. The Bishop is apparently on some guilt trip and thinks that all humans have a nature to do good. Stand on a LA street corner with $100 hanging out of your pocket and watch how quick you get assaulted. Go to the streets of Cario and admit you are American and watch how quick they jump on you and beat you up. Run off to downtown Mexico City and drive a big convertiable around....and wait till they come to rob you. The Bishop doesn't grasp that the world is full of evil and good must take on evil...or else we suffer in the end.
39 posted on 01/14/2003 12:23:42 PM PST by pepsionice
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To: RonF
Arafat's Al Fatah has, I believe, sworn destruction of the Jewish state, not surprising Sharon wishes him subjugated. Again, the moral equivalency does not apply.

Do you actually think Griswold is not leftist?

I am sure, FWIW, that there are Episcopalian parishes that continue to cherish traditional Christian values, and I am sure, after reading this article that Griswold does not represent them. I am supposing, though, that to become chief bishop, he must at least be representative of the "powers that be" in the church.
40 posted on 01/14/2003 12:27:24 PM PST by Sam Cree (I like steak tartar, though)
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To: Incorrigible
Aren't you sweet... (just kidding, really.)

I have long since made my peace with Episcopal/Anglican wackiness. I understand the African Anglican bishops are very orthodox and are increasingly hosting US parishes (thus getting them out from under the thumb of ECUSA bishops.) It's not an option where I live but it may be the only one 50 years from now.

41 posted on 01/14/2003 12:59:28 PM PST by valkyrieanne
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To: All
Evening bump
42 posted on 01/14/2003 2:54:46 PM PST by Incorrigible
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To: RonF
Heck, even the RCC will formally ordain non-practicing homosexuals. In practice, they've been doing a lot worse than that.

You're right, RonF, but the big difference is that the Catholic Church teaches that homosexual conduct is a sin. It's awfully hard to figure out what Episcopalians are supposed to believe regarding sexual morals. They have become increasingly unmoored from scripture with regard to these and other issues.

43 posted on 01/14/2003 3:43:01 PM PST by yendu bwam
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To: Incorrigible
The Episcopal Church of the United States has gone beyond the pale. Its bishops are Apostates : they have all abandoned God and become secular humanists.

The final straw for me was when one of the Presiding Bishops predecessors denounced Gulf War I. I wonder how many collects for the President are said in parishes today? (I'm sure the good ones still do, in spite of the bishops).
44 posted on 01/14/2003 4:01:25 PM PST by centurion316
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To: Incorrigible
"Speaking Sunday at the Washington National Cathedral to mark his fifth anniversary as presiding bishop, Griswold said American reluctance to spend more on AIDS in Africa is "a manifestation of evil" and a "form of sin from which we as a nation are called to repent."

Ahhh yes, if we just give a little more money then we won't be "evil" any more, right Father?!

45 posted on 01/14/2003 4:25:59 PM PST by Southack (Media bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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Clueless putz.

46 posted on 01/14/2003 7:27:47 PM PST by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: Incorrigible

One of the things that Karl Rove needs to think more about as the 2004 election approaches is the piss-poor job the Administration does in "zeitgeist management."

This article is merely one of dozens that the media floats every day in a never-ending torrent of anti-Bush rhetoric. This time it's an Episcopal bishop that the media wouldn't give the time of day to if he weren't criticizing Bush. The other day they found some judge in Spain. If all else fails they'll find some foreign policy expert in Hollywood to tell us about the bad karma that's coming.

There's no need to go to the Clinton model of doing something to dominate the news cycle every 24-hours, but letting these hits pile up for weeks on end without seeming to do anything isn't too smart, either.

Perhaps the White House imagines that Bush will get some licks in during the State of the Union address, and he undoubtedly will. But these seeming periods of inactivity, during which the media fires at will for extended periods, are going to be a problem if they are not addressed.


47 posted on 01/14/2003 7:50:42 PM PST by Nick Danger (The environment has bees in it)
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To: All
Late Night Bump
48 posted on 01/14/2003 9:25:32 PM PST by Incorrigible
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
I'm going to withhold my comments on the picture. I'm sure they would reflect very badly on me and the way I was brought up. The comment I will make is based on the article....frickin USA hating traitor
49 posted on 01/14/2003 9:32:42 PM PST by paul51
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To: paul51
That didn't help. Anyone have an email address or phone number for this asshole?
50 posted on 01/14/2003 9:35:12 PM PST by paul51
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