Skip to comments.shocking propaganda against France
Posted on 01/28/2003 5:05:12 PM PST by PierreEsbaillart
I am very shocked by the current propaganda against France and, in a minor extent, Germany and the EU, which is developing on the American web and media. As we are some "old Europe" countries, let me tell you that some elements of this propaganda remind me of the atmosphere that existed between European peoples of 1914-18 : the Frenchman is the USA's Jew, the traitor, the coward, which plants knives in the back. These are paranoid ideas. Bush has declared "you are with us or you are against us" your enemies are "evil's axis" A deeply thought political theory which reminds me of older simplistic speeches. Believe the experience of "old Europe", who knows a lot about the matter, and is not proud of it : your war has already begun, you're under propaganda, and rational arguments don't prevail any more.
France was on the Gulf ten years ago, when Irak invaded its neighbour, and when the coalition was covered by the UN to free Kuwait.
According to the NATO alliance, France made clear during the first hours after the 11th September that it was ready to respect its engagements if necessary.
But with the future Anglo-Saxon crusade against Bagdad, things are very different. The OTAN was a defensive alliance against the Pact of Varsovia. To be an ally of the USA doesn't mean to give its allegiance to the USA. It means, in case of aggression by another state, that solidarity becomes effective. Irak has not yet attacked anyone. NATO should have nothing to do with "preventive wars".
Can't you all simply understand this : as you are so powerful, rich, and influent, it's more courageous for France to refuse to engage in this war. There will be retaliation against France for such an attitude. To send a few planes in the Gulf and drop a few bombs, just like the UK or Italy, would have been so simple for France.
French people are not the stupid blind nationalists that your propaganda is pretending they are. French people know they have lost their weight in international politics. But they don't want to abandon their sovereignty to an other organisation than the European union. Is it so scandalous that they want to be free and independent ?
Well, it's true that "we are not with you". Because this is not a war for Irak's freedom and democracy. This is not even a war against terrorism ; this war will create thousands of new terrorists full of hate for America. A government only makes war for its own interest. This war is for the Iraki oil, and to be more independent of Saudi Arabia, the country of the 11th September terrorists, where Al Qaida money comes from. It's a war to completely change the Middle-East and so the world-wide energetic map. I find logical for the USA to defend their interests. The powerful countries have always acted like this. It's cynic and amoral, but, somehow, "natural". But stop talking about democracy, and the Good against Evil. This is not Starwars. This is not a Tolkien's story.
S. Hussein is a dictator, he has massacred and tortured. He probably owns and surely has owned chemical and biological weapons. But what about Libya, Iran, North Korea, China in Tibet, Russia in Chechnya, Israel in Palestine, etc ? If democracy in Irak is the aim, why does it become urgent right now ? Were the Afghans free when the Talibans were installed to stabilise a country where pipe-lines had to go through ?
France is a traitor, France is isolated - isolated with the rest of the world except the OTAN. That's what your leaders need to make you believe because they don't want you to know that you have mainly a simple Anglo-Saxon coalition. OTAN : approximately 20 countries with the new eastern members - less France, Germany, and Benelux. The rest of the world : Asia, Africa, South America, the Middle East And the rest of the world fears you but it doesn't love you.
Is it so necessary for the USA to crush all possibility of counterbalancing power ? Do they complain about the treason of an ally or the independence of one of their own "satellite countries" ? They have succeeded in being hated by the whole Moslem world - which owns the main oil reserves. Is it so enjoyable that they now need to invective and humiliate the western European countries trying to build their political union ? Do they love so much to be hated ?
To conclude, here's the dream your government is currently destroying by its politics in western Europe - it was made by an "old", "disloyal", "nationalist", "chauvinist" Frenchman (even a bit socialist, what a monster ! ) :
"Un jour viendra où vous, France, vous, Russie, vous, Angleterre, vous, Allemagne, vous toutes, nations du continent, sans perdre vos qualités distinctes et votre glorieuse individualité, vous vous fondrez étroitement dans une unité supérieure et vous constituerez la fraternité européenne, absolument comme la Bretagne, la Bourgogne, la Lorraine, l'Alsace se sont fondues dans la France [ ]. Un jour viendra où l'on verra ces deux groupes immenses, les Etats-Unis d'Amérique, les Etats-Unis d'Europe, placés en face l'un de l'autre, se tendant la main par-dessus les mers, échangeant leurs produits, leur commerce, leur industrie, leurs arts, leurs génies, défrichant le globe, colonisant les déserts, améliorant la création sous le regard du Créateur."
VICTOR HUGO, 1849.
(The day will come when you, France, you, Russia, you, England, you, Germany, all of you, nations of the continent, without losing your distinct qualities and your glorious individualities, you will melt closely into a superior unity and you will constitute the European brotherhood, absolutely as Brittany, Burgundy, Lorraine, Alsace have melted into France [
]. The day will come when we'll see those two huge groups, the United States of America, the United States of Europe, facing each other, offering hand beyond the seas, exchanging their products, their commerce, their industry, their arts, their genius, clearing the globe, colonising the deserts, improving the creation under the look of the Creator.)
Pour la guerre n'est pas pour des lâches
et la justice est pour des theives.
And why do you think it worked for 50 years? Please don't give me anything about "foreign policy doctrine". WHAT about foreign policy, or lack of it, kept the peace for 50 years?
AND if things were as you'd like them now, are you saying that if we just promise not to pre-emptively attack anybody that these "dozen" countries you mention that have WMD are just going to leave us alone?
"J'accuse", 1898: Zola published concerning the Dreyfus affair-that of a Jewish French army officer whose trial for treason began a 12 year controversy that deeply marked the political and social history of the period - a fierce denunciation of the French general staff in the newspaper L'Aurore. It took the form of an open letter defending the innocence of Dreyfus.
Welcome to FR. Lurk a while and ask questions, you may surprised what you will learn. Hopefully the French will come their senses soon; before her capitol becomes Parisistan.
La bienvenue à l'ARMATURE menacent un moment et posent des questions, vous peut a étonné ce que vous apprendrez. Si tout va bien le Français viendra leurs sens bientôt; avant son capitol devient Parisistan.
If Iraq enjoyed a free press, free speech, and freedom of association, and the USA threatened her; there could be a moral unjust war argument. But that is not the case with Iraq. There is no frame of reference, by western standards of civilization, for comparing Iraq. For the controlled Iraqi press, even a Holy Bible requires an image of Saddam Hussein. You did know that. Right?
De si l'Irak appréciait une pression libre, un discours libre, et une liberté association, et les Etats-Unis l'ont menacée; il a pu y a un argument injuste moral de guerre. Mais ce n'est pas le cas avec l'Irak. Il n'y a aucune armature de la référence, par des normes occidentales de civilisation, pour comparer l'Irak. Pour la pression irakienne commandée, même une bible sainte exige une image de Saddam Hussein. Vous avez su cela. Droite?
An ostrich like stance on Iraq will not make Saddam go away, or behave. Sanctions were violated, inspections thwarted, while a new paradigm of warfare emerged: state sponsored terrorism. We're not talking about a cowardly attack upon an unarmed peace protester's ship here. You do understand that an Embassy is an extension of home soil?
Une autruche comme la position sur l'Irak ne fera pas Saddam partir, ou comportez-vous. Des sanctions ont été violées, des inspections contrecarrées, alors qu'un nouveau paradigme de la guerre émergeait: l'état a commandité le terrorisme. Nous ne parlons pas d'une attaque lâche sur le bateau d'un protestataire unarmed de paix ici. Vous comprenez qu'une ambassade est une prolongation du sol à la maison?
Laurie Mylroie, President Clinton's advisor on Iraq, in her book Study of Revenge: The First World Trade Center Attack and Saddam Husseins War Against America, leaves little doubt the first WTC attack and US Embassy bombings were Iraqi state sponsored terrorist acts. Mylroie also makes a good case the 9/11 attack was too. Iraq trains terrorist, harbors terrorists, and funds terrorist acts too. With that in mind, a war against state sponsored terrorism is an unjust war?
Laurie Mylroie, conseiller du Président Clinton's sur l'Irak, dans sa étude de livre de vengeance: La premières attaque de centre commercial mondial et guerre de Saddam Hussein?s contre l'Amérique, laisse peu à doute la première attaque de WTC et les bombardements d'ambassade des USA étaient des actes de terroriste commandités par état irakien. Mylroie fait également un bon cas que l'attaque de 9/11 était aussi. L'Irak forme le terroriste, terroristes de ports, et place des actes de terroriste aussi. Avec cela à l'esprit, une guerre contre le terrorisme commandité par état est une guerre injuste?
The horrific cruelty of Saddam is beyond belief. Former UNSCOM inspector, and now peace activist Scott Ritter, described an Iraqi childrens political prison. Ritter asserts in a Time Magazine story if we knew what went on in that childrens prison, even the peaceniks would demand war with Iraq. Freeing the Iraqi children from this brutal repression is somehow unjust?
La cruauté terrifiante de Saddam est au delà de croyance. L'ancien inspecteur d'UNSCOM, et maintenant l'activiste Scott Ritter de paix, ont décrit une prison politique de children?s irakiens. Ritter affirme dans une histoire de magazine de temps si nous savions ce qui a continué du fait la prison de children?s, même les peaceniks exigerait la guerre avec l'Irak. Libérer les enfants irakiens de cette répression brutale est de façon ou d'autre injuste?
This Gulf War Veteran disagrees with the foolish imbeciles of France. Either France is with us, or she is against us. There is little doubt why my ancestors left the "axis of weasel" for the New World.
Ce vétéran de la guerre du Golfe est en désaccord avec les imbeciles idiots de la France. Ou la France est avec nous, ou elle est contre nous. Il y a peu doute pourquoi mes ancêtres ont laissé l'"axe du weasel" pour le nouveau monde.
The Iraqi people have suffered long enough. It is time to liberate the Iraqi people.
Les irakiens ont souffert assez longtemps. Il est temps de libérer les irakiens.
Did you forget the anthrax so soon? Or did you buy the lie that the Czechs discounted the Atta-Iraqi meeting, when in fact he reaffirmed it? Last time I checked anthrax was a biological weapon.
Did you forget the ricin incident in Great Britain? The folks with the ricin are linked to Iraq.
How does that anything to do with Iraq at all? 19 men got into this country and highjacked four planes with box cutters. No chemicals, No bio weapons, no nukes.
Evidently you fell for the domestic theory on the anthrax. Did you forget about the first WTC bombing and its Iraqi connection, and forget the cyanide gas - a chemical weapon- which fortunately did not work?
Did you forget the Iraqi agent who attended the Malaysia meeting with the hijackers of 911? He made it back to Bagdhad.
And besides Sadaam there are a dozen other countries with crazy dictators that WMD programs that don't like us.
Yeah, there are. And some of them we're stuck with because they have succeeded in obtaining nukes; too bad we didn't stop them before they obtained nukes. If we had, millions of people would be alive today, and many millions more would be free.
Iraq, however, has gone further than to merely let people know it has WMD. It demonstrated the stuff. It invaded Kuwait and Iran. Hussein has expressed a desire to annex other nations and has even done it, albeit briefly.
Iraq started the war, and Iraq ignored the cease fire arrangements and decided to continue this war. It's time to deal with the problem because it will not simply "go away."
We lived with it before 9/11- hell we lived with it for 50 years.
I for one didn't like seeing 200 + marines get killed in Lebanon. But we didn't do anyhting about that and so, we ended up getting more and more people killed because of our perceived weakness. Lebanon is Syrian property now, for all practical purposes, and is a haven for terrorism which did, does and will murder more Americans. Ignoring the problem empowers terrorists- it does not make them wimp out and go for less important targets and it sure as heck won't make them retire and get into a harmless hobby. And regimes like Hussein's keep the profit margins up enough to ensure that terorists have a home and base of operations. I for one didn't like the Kobar Towers bombing, the scud launches against a country which wasn't even in the first Gulf War, nor the people who pay families to train their kids to be human bombs. I for one didn't like seeing our embassies blown up and hundreds of Kenyans killed or maimed just because they had the misfortune to walk by or work there. I for one didn't like seeing US sailors turned into human peanut butter between the decks of a US warship in a Yemeni port. I for one don't think it is acceptable to just allow people to take unlimited hits at you without responding or taking their arses out. I for one don't think we should twiddle our thumbs while Iraq or Iran drop mines in navigable waters to cripple third party shipping. I for one don't think we should sit idly by while Iraq sends assassins and thugs into our country to harass American citizens who were formerly Iraqi scientists or officials. I for one don't think it is funny to see Americans get decapitated on video or to read about Americans being tortured because our enemies have no respect for us owing to our annoying willingness to simply forget people languishing in prisons or to forget people who were incinerated for Greater Babylon or some twisted religion be it Islam, pan Arabism, or its more westernized marxist-socialism. Just because you find the attrition rate acceptable doesn't mean it is ethical for you to do so.
I for one don't forget it when someone declares war on us. It's hardly "preemptive" to strike when someone does so.
I don't think you appreciate what a revolutionary foreign policy doctrine Bush is extolling.
There is nothing revolutionary about resuming a conflict when the cease fire has been violated, nor about responding to a surprise attack against all involved, nor about laying low a nation whose leader has threatened us or our citizens.
Why anyone would expect the rest of the world- even our allies- to accept a foreign policy that reserves the right to premptively attack percieved threats to us is beyond me.
Well, for one, there is nothing preemptive about this, and much of the rest of the world is with us, so it is reasonable to expect those will remain with us. And becasue people follow leadership, I expect more will join once we engage. Not that it matters.
What Bush wants- an unprovoked attack against Iraq (quibble all you want- that is what it will be)
Only a fool thinks this is "unprovoked." Saddam Hussein's support of Abu Nidal was more than sufficient for us to go after him long ago, as he and others have used Abu Nidal and other groups to try to cover their hand in the acts, attempts which at times failed to cover adequately. Assassination attempts on US leaders after a cease fire is an act of war. All have been engaged actively in trying to destroy or damage this country and its citizens wherever they can discreetly do so. And this isn't even mentioning the very violation of the cease fire is sufficient reason.
We're not obligated to treat Iraq as an equal, nor any nation whose citizens are not free, as "an equal." There is no obligation for us to "play fair," with regimes whose stated goals are to annex our allies, destroy our allies, bomb our bases, choke our trade, block our trade routes, or to threaten Americans, etc. A preemptive strike on Britain, for example, would be inappropriate and wouldn't come up in any case because Britain is no threat and does not threaten anyone, not even its own citizens. Iraq has and continues to threaten its neighbors, who are also our trading partners. We do not need to wait around to see if our enemies are true to their word.
is revolutionary in world diplomatic history.
Not to mention, we don't live in an age where it takes two or three weeks for the enemy's ships to arrive. We live in a world where millions can be killed by a few, in the blink of an eye.
To expect the rest of the world to passively accept that and be happy with it is not realistic.
I don't care if they passively accept it or are happy with it. But I do expect a country which sank a Greenpeace ship to quite whining when we want to kill a notorious murderer who has already expressed his intentions. Notice that we do not preemptively strike France? That's because as obnoxious as the French are, they haven't tried to assassinate US citizens, they haven't invaded one of our allies or trading partners, they haven't tried to shoot down our planes, they haven't violated a cease fire, they haven't sent agents to meetings with hijackers in Malaysia, they haven't met with al Qaeda several times in Afghanistan and the Sudan, and they haven't gassed the people of Luxembourg.
(Of course, they sure haven't tried to stop such things, either.)
The survival of my country trumps our concern for the emotional well-being of France. We do not have to let pedophiles run preschools so we sure as heck shouldn't let mass murderers desiring to rebuild Babylon have nuclear weapons with which to blackmail their neighbors or ourselves.
Could the Iraqi's give WMD to AQ and could it be used here and kill thousands?
They can kill more than thousands. It's only a matter of time- and not much time, before they can kill hundreds of thousands or millions.
Yes. Just as easily a rouge Russian mercenary nuclear scientist could be working right now in a cave somewhere building a suitcase nuke for AQ as well.
Yes, but in this case we know where the "rogue" is and we know what he is up to, and we have been engaged in a war with him already, and we have patiently abided by all the international protocols and concerns and all it has gotten us are more dead Americans and many more dead Iraqis, threats to anhilate our allies, and a place for terrorists to hang out in a very strategic central location in the Middle East.
Is invading Iraq going to make us more or less likely to be the target of terrorist attack in the future?
Less over the long run. We know for a FACT that doing nothing results in an ever-escalating use of terrorism as a political tool not just for groups but for nations who use terrorists as proxies.
Fighting the NAZIS got us a lot fewer NAZIs. Executing a murderer means that murderer will never kill again, and if done swiftly and preferably with a rope so potential criminals will see how humiliating it is to die with a pantload, others will be reluctant to join the company of murderers. This isn't rocket science, it's common sense.
You know why the Arabs on 9/11 succeeded? The succeeded because Americans (and everyone but Israelis) had been trained to sit mutely, draw no attention to themselves, and do nothing when terrorists take over a plane. We were trained to "wait for the authorities," to expect a negotiation and eventual freedom even if a few Americans or Jews were picked out of the passenger lists and tortured and shot like a certain Navy man in Europe some ears ago. so when 911 came, there the people sat, and they watched in horror, frozen, as the hijackers slit the stewards' and stewardesses' throats and tok over the cokpits. And they stayed in their seats because the terrorists threatened them with an imaginary bomb. Heck, it wasn't even a real one. And because they sat there and did nothing, not only did they die, but their own plane and thoier own bodies enabled the mass murder of 3 thousand innocent people. It could have been far worse- it took over an hour for the buildings to collapse.
But on ONE plane things took a different twist, and the people, once told by the folks on the ground that other planes had become Islamic cruise missiles, resolved not to go out like sheep to the slaughter. they fought back, and thanks to them, the plane never struck its intended target, and lives were saved. And because of them Americans now know that no matter what anyone says, if there is ever an attempt at hijacking a plane again, they must attack immediately at the slightest provocation, and not wait for someone to get their throat slit, and not wait for the terrorists to take the cockpit, and above all, to not wait for the "authorities" to negotiate. If they do, it will be too late. If we had that saem philosophy all along, there would have been one hijacking in history and no one would have tried it again.
Many things could happen. It still doesn't mean it is going to.
I will guarantee you there will be escalating levels of terrorism if we do not go after Iraq. Fortunately, we are going into Iraq. And Iraqis will try to get off a few hits as they did the last time, but this time they won't have Saddam Hussein to run home to.
Bush's foreign policy is very radical and a break from hundreds of years of tradition and diplomatic history.
It is radical and radical change brings about a million unforseen consequences.
The known consequences of inaction are too high. Inaction means that someone WILL use nukes sooner or later, because they would know they would get away with it. Not to mention, we won't be taken seriously nor will we be respected if we continue to hide or appease or ignore.
Bin Laden himself said that he saw America run away in Somalia and that was why he believed we would run on 911 and leave the middle east and all of the people there, to the very vicious attentions of his zealots.
We didn't have to run- we had at more than one time had Aidid in our sights and with split seconds to spare in his life; if Clinton had but given the order, the example set by Aidid would have prevented the Battle of Mogadishu, and the killing of both Amricans and many more Somalis there. And we would not have run away, and would not have shown the weakness which Bin Laden thought was our fatal flaw.
Fidel Castro and the Iranian leaders said much the same thing mere months before 9/11. Fidel said "I have seen her up close, she is weak, America is weak" and "together, we shall bring America to her knees." Weakness is always the problem. Weakness is why Iraq invaded Iran the first time- the mullahs had killed off or imprisoned the Shah's military personnel, and without leadership the Iranians were smoked for a while.
US weakness is why Iraq invaded Kuwait. Saddam believed we would sit idly by.
Weakness is why Buckley was tortured to death over a period of months- and this was followed by years of terrorism carried out by Imad Mugniyah. (Who also has made contact with al Qaeda since we kindly allowed him to breathe after once getting him into a snare years later because of another Clinton brain freeze.) We ran from Lebanon and our enemies then knew they had nothing to fear. And when you are no longer feared by your enemies, you will not gain respected from friends, either.
Sorry, your "imaginary fears" argument against taking action won't cut it with me.
Yikes, I see my caffeine is cutting out on me again.
"France is a third-world, has-been country that has NEVER willingly cooperated with the U.S. in any military conflict."
Back in March-May, 1954, during the Battle of Dien Bien Phu, a superior French force under General Navarre got itself surrounded and cut off by the Vietminh army led by Comrade Giap.
As the French became increasingly desperate, they begged the Americans to intervene with B-26 bombers, F8F fighters, C-47 transports, and most importantly, 75-100 B-29 bombers. This plan, code named "Operation Vulture," would have included massive conventional raids on Vietminh forces in the highlands surrounding Dien Bien Phu, followed by the use of three atomic bombs on the Communist forces.
John Foster Dulles and Vice President Richard Nixon were for the plan (at least the conventional portion of it). As it happened, the U.S. political leadership, including Senate Leader Lyndon B. Johnson, nixed the idea. As Lt. General Phillip Davidson wrote in his book "Vietnam at War," "Looking back through the mists which still shroud some aspects of Vulture, one is impressed at the clarity of vision of Nixon, Dulles, (Admr.) Radford, and (Gen.) Ridgeway. For a moment in history, these men glimpsed something of the future ... dimly perhaps, that American intervention in Indochina was inevitable."
Like Indochina in the 1950's, American intervention in the Middle East in inevitable. In hindsight, we should have willingly cooperated with the French at Dien Bien Phu. Likewise the French should cooperate with us now. But they won't, because they are cheese-eating surrender monkies, so we should smack their sorry asses back to Europe where the belong.
Interesting. The French only want peaceful sovereignty but what about those Jews. Have they NO land? Do they deserve less then the French?
In the land of Palestine indeed. Would you then welcome the Jews to a portion of France or should they just be pushed into the sea? There are Arab lands all over the Middle East but there is no Israel?
They may be speaking German soon anyway.
Oh naive people, just look accross the Mediterranean and you will be amazed at what real propaganda is, vs. open discussions and rants about France.
Fools, little Napoleonic fools, your country is no more France but Napoleonia.
so why do you give up your individuality for such hubris and paranoia about propaganda in free nations?
so they destroyed the WTC with box cutters??? I guess the Nazies just used innocuous carbon monoxide too. Like some kraft nijas hitting the glass with box cutters. Maybe the German Nazi pogroms against Jews and crystal nacht were of no concern either. So the mob is not a mass destruction weapon either. Gasing people around.
Gees, three mob cheers for Saddam and terrorists indeed. Let us not think and let us agree with their thesis without discussion, no no no.
Just as the Jews succeeded in being hated by Germans? When did America attack the muslims specificaly? Or the muslim religion? And why blame the victim for attracting crimes upon itself? Isn't it pagan superstition?
Ah! and so it is, about sheer power hunger, this addiction to this welfare, this farce of communist power struggle, this nationalism, this national socialism, this loss that the French crave for now..
But as for truth, genuine truth, the Know thyself Socratic civilization, no, that the French renounce, and they accuse America of not having it, accusing America of France's own urges for power, for greedy selfish power and popularity, this weight in international affairs...
That is not France, but Hitlero-Napoleonic view of "France" and "Europe" that you have here. ....
VARMINT CONG ALERT!!!
You didn't? Funny are all those troops there on vacation? The huge American oil companies havent 100% control over the Kuwait oil? And Dick Chaney wasn't elected president of Halliburton; its all a big dream... The rest of the world live in ignorans ...
How 'bout crawfish??
Why? Because the French have a terminal case of the teenie-weenie complex. They REALLY believe they're the only Enlightened species on Earth and it galls them when we show them how irrelevant they really are. Pierre cries and complains because the French are being slighted. Pierre doesn't comprende that they're not being slighted, we just don't give a cacca what they think.
They're like a pimple on a rhino's ass.
I received an email asking me about France helping us in the Revolutionary War. This person said the United States never would've been born without French help. If it assuages French pride to think they're the SOLE reason we won the Revolutionary War, I'll let them have that point, for now, because I don't have the time or inclination to research 225 year-old jigsaw puzzles.
But I will say this...I believe Washington and Jefferson and Franklin and all of our forefathers were made of stouter stuff than that. And I also believe the French were goaded and prodded for years and years before they finally jumped in. Further, blockading Cornwallis(?) could also be seen as just another battle in their on-going war with the British at the time. That he happened to be on American soil when he was blockaded, in my book, doesn't earn the French everlasting gratitude.