Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Did NASA know there was a problem? PIC and Excerpts from an Israeli Article
Maariv ^

Posted on 02/02/2003 8:41:24 PM PST by yonif

The left wing of the shuttle picture taken from the window of the shuttle.

Main Issue in the Article

Did Nasa know about this and therefore kept their silence, not telling the astronauts?

-The photo was revealed on Channel 1 of Israel. This pic was taken during an interview the Channel had with the Israeli astronaut.


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Israel; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: columbia; tinfoilalert
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 301-329 next last

1 posted on 02/02/2003 8:41:24 PM PST by yonif
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

Anyone know what that stove pipe sticking up there is?
2 posted on 02/02/2003 8:44:40 PM PST by Tennessee_Bob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: yonif
Are they suggesting that NASA either didn't see this or that they ignored it? Impossible. I am sure that NASA did everything possible to determine if this was enough damage to be a problem.
3 posted on 02/02/2003 8:45:01 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: yonif
Did Nasa know about this and therefore kept their silence, not telling the astronauts?

From Dittemore's (sp) statements alone one can infer that to be the case.

Are these the type of threads that keep getting yanked?
4 posted on 02/02/2003 8:47:57 PM PST by TheDon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: yonif
BUMP
5 posted on 02/02/2003 8:48:43 PM PST by Mike Darancette
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: yonif; All

I read some more and it says that one of the leaders of the Israeli Space Agency says that the Crew aboard the Columbia was not informed of the problems, and given a chance to look at the wing with their own eyes as a result. They were told of problems only a few minutes before entering the atmosphere.


6 posted on 02/02/2003 8:49:06 PM PST by yonif
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: snopercod; yonif
Bump.
7 posted on 02/02/2003 8:50:41 PM PST by First_Salute
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: yonif
Thanks for the post. Indexing for later.
8 posted on 02/02/2003 8:50:43 PM PST by Lady Jag (Googolplex Start Thinker of the Seventh Galaxy of Light and Ingenuity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: yonif
A. That doesn't look like a wing

B. The circled items look like they're scratches/debris on the inside or outside of window GLASS, not on the outside of the orbiter.
9 posted on 02/02/2003 8:52:09 PM PST by John H K
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee_Bob
Looks like a chimney sweeps top hat... I suspect mary poppins is to blame.Just a little tension breaking humor here.come on don't flame me.
10 posted on 02/02/2003 8:53:53 PM PST by lexington minuteman 1775
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: John H K
I think you need glasses.
11 posted on 02/02/2003 8:53:53 PM PST by MatthewViti
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: lexington minuteman 1775
They were out flying kites...up where the air is clear...
12 posted on 02/02/2003 8:54:59 PM PST by Tennessee_Bob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: MatthewViti
The wings of the Space shuttle don't have protruding cylindrical objects on them.
13 posted on 02/02/2003 8:55:09 PM PST by John H K
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

sui-ping
14 posted on 02/02/2003 8:55:23 PM PST by error99 (Do not remove this tag under penalty of law...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: John H K; All

More Points from the Article

1. Nasa Did not make any effort to investigate the outside of the ship for serious damage, even after seeing that panel fall on the wing. They could have used a telescope or a spy satellite to do so.

2. Therefore the shuttle could have flown to the space station and waited there for another shuttle

3. Repeat that the Columbia crew was not told of the problems, so they had no chance to investigate or try to fix them (A BIG THING)

4. Correction: The pic is a still photo from the press conference Israel had where the Prime Minister Sharon had a talk with the Israeli astronaut. This photo was revealed on Israel Television the other day.


15 posted on 02/02/2003 8:58:02 PM PST by yonif
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: TheDon
It's one way to post ignorant things; it's another to post an article with info of genuine concern.

It could be that the people involved had on blinders and didn't take what they saw seriously. If that is the case, procedures need to be examined to preclude future incidents of this nature. If it's not the case, then the public needs to be reassured. People are talking, and people are wondering. Keeping them in dark is not the best way to go.
16 posted on 02/02/2003 8:59:03 PM PST by JudyB1938
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: John H K
Would someone tell me where the window is located, so that you can take a picture of the wing. I don't think that such a window was there.
17 posted on 02/02/2003 8:59:52 PM PST by org.whodat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: yonif
Ok, I'll say it...

What did NASA know, and when did he know it?

18 posted on 02/02/2003 9:02:51 PM PST by Future Snake Eater
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants
I congratulate you on your optimism but I do not share it. If it couldn't be fixed by the crew, I can only wonder why they didn't send them to the space station until they could send another shuttle up to get them. Maybe they didn't have the fuel to get themselves into an orbit to link up, but I am more and more concerned by the photos of the damage from the foam hitting the left wing on takeoff, and the fact that the high temperature readings were from that left wing, the last transmission between Houston and the shuttle crew.

It has also been stated, over and over again, that if the heat-preventing tiles on the wing were damaged, there was no way to repair them. Extra-vehicular jaunts are usually always in the cargo bay, not under the shuttle where they can't be seen and where it just isn't safe for them to go.

Besides, they don't carry tiles to replace any lost, because every tile is specific to it's placement. But, if the tiles "zippered", one was knocked off, and then as the heat built up on re-entry, the next one, and then the next one, and so on, were removed, then the skin of the shuttle was being exposed to 3000 degrees of heat.

If there was no way for them to repair the damage, and no way for the shuttle to get to the space station, did the guys on the ground just "hope for the best" and let them come home, not really knowing if they could make it?

Did anyone do a "worst case analysis"? If you remember the movie "Apollo 13", while the crew was fighting to stay alive, the engineers on the ground were experimenting with every possible alternative, while working on a back up to that, in case even that failed. Backup to backup - as many alternatives, provided a way to get the crew home. Did they do the same for the Columbia crew? Not that I've heard.

Just for the record. I mention the movie "Apollo 13" as a reference, but I am an engineer who worked for Grumman on NASA projects, among them the LEM. Products I worked on were required to have Maintainability and Reliability numbers NINE digits to the right of the decimal point - meaning they just weren't going to fail. Less than .999999999, and a backup or two was required. There is no backup to a lost tile. It is the most vulnerable part of the shuttle.
19 posted on 02/02/2003 9:02:55 PM PST by TruthNtegrity (God bless America, God bless President George W. Bush and God bless our Military!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: org.whodat
Actually, with regards to the Shuttle being able to go to the Space Station and wait it out till another Shuttle could be sent up...it wouldn't have done them any good. This wasn't a ISS tasked mission. The Columbia wasn't equipped with the docking system that is needed to dock with ISS. Great idea, but unfortunately it wouldn't have helped.
20 posted on 02/02/2003 9:03:40 PM PST by Jerry505
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: org.whodat
They took video pictures of the fuel tank being released, but could not take pictures of the wing from their vantage point.
21 posted on 02/02/2003 9:03:46 PM PST by Dr. Zoo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: yonif
If those black squiggles are cracks and that's the Shuttle wing I do not for a minute believe they would risk allowing that thing to land in it's current condition without AT LEAST informing the astronauts.

WHY? Why would they knowingly withold this information? And who in their right mind could look at that and not call it a structural problem? Do you honestly think a NASA engineer would poo-poo a thing like that?

Maybe they overlooked it, but I seriously doubt this was witheld intentionally.. Not after Challenger, not with Dubya wanting to increase their funding and send them on more missions, not with the worlds first Israeli astronaut onboard and the whole world watching.

NO WAY.

22 posted on 02/02/2003 9:04:52 PM PST by Jhoffa_ (A Shrubbery!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee_Bob
I thought it was an arrow..
23 posted on 02/02/2003 9:05:50 PM PST by Jhoffa_ (A Shrubbery!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: yonif
they had no way to fix it either. To bond that stuff you need a warm room, vacuum wrap the material, and use an epoxy that flows in room heat, not absolute zero of space.

I say, they didnt tell them, there was no way anyone could have stopped it, fixed it, and they knew it was up to God to get them home again alive either way.

I am not sure if that is evil. Why make them worry? There was NOTHING they could do about it.
24 posted on 02/02/2003 9:06:00 PM PST by RaceBannon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: John H K; yonif
I agree with John. I don't think that is the wing of any space shuttle. If you look at the photos of the shuttle, the wing is much whiter and on the leading edge of the wing, it is a dark grey and black closer to the nose.

I only know this because I have had to study the way the shuttle is put together for our new hot air balloon.

Shuttle mock up

25 posted on 02/02/2003 9:06:15 PM PST by abner (www.usflagballoon.com <--shameless plug)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: yonif
Some other pics from that website:


26 posted on 02/02/2003 9:06:20 PM PST by First_Salute
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: yonif
"Repeat that the Columbia crew was not told of the problems, so they had no chance to investigate or try to fix them (A BIG THING)"

Whoever took this picture out the window was aware of potential problems!



27 posted on 02/02/2003 9:06:40 PM PST by SwinneySwitch (Prayers for Columbia.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: TruthNtegrity
It seems that those tiles are an EXTREMELY weak link.
28 posted on 02/02/2003 9:09:48 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: org.whodat
Here is a picture from the shuttle

I can't figure out where the first picture on this thread was taken.

29 posted on 02/02/2003 9:10:49 PM PST by ao98
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: yonif
2. Therefore the shuttle could have flown to the space station and waited there for another shuttle

Nope. the Delta-V was to great for the onboard fuel. It could not reach the ISS.

30 posted on 02/02/2003 9:11:27 PM PST by RadioAstronomer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: yonif
Wow, I can see that the damage was far greater than NASA had let on. Not only were there gouges and cuts in it but it had broken off and floated into view of the orbiter's windows.
31 posted on 02/02/2003 9:12:59 PM PST by Justa
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: yonif
I don't know what that's a picture of, but it sure doesn't look like a shuttle wing to me.

That, and I don't even think you can get a clear shot out any of the windows of the *top* of a wing. The angle is all wrong. The crew windows are all way forward.
32 posted on 02/02/2003 9:13:01 PM PST by Ramius (When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: yonif; All
And they could have told the crew that they should do a spacewalk in order to try to closely examine the affected areas.
33 posted on 02/02/2003 9:15:16 PM PST by yonif
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ramius
It is not the wing. I will find some pics of the wings on the Columbia.
34 posted on 02/02/2003 9:15:22 PM PST by abner (www.usflagballoon.com <--shameless plug)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Ramius
Two other things about trying to get to the ISS. One, the Columbia was too heavy to dock with the ISS, it's never used for those missions because of that. It was the heaviest of the Orbiters. Second, by day 16 it wouldn't have had anywhere near the fuel to reach the orbit ISS is in.
35 posted on 02/02/2003 9:16:46 PM PST by Jerry505
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: yonif
One by One:

Point One:

There was no effective way to view the underside of the shuttle wing from Earth or any space-based vantage point.

Point 2:

There was no fuel on board to take the shuttle to the ISS. The orbits of the shuttle and the ISS were not compatible. If the shuttle were to be able to rondevoux with the ISS it would have had to be programmed to do so from the start.

Even if the shuttle could have flown to the ISS, it could not link up since the docking module was not carried aboard, as it was not needed and was unusable for this mission.

Point 3:

The Columbia crew had no ability to either investigate or fix. Information would hvve been useless to them. They do not carry aboard the thoushands of different tile shapes and sizes needed to replace any given broken tile. Nor do they carry along the EVA suits unless the mission contemplates such activity. The crew could not go out into the vacuum of space, did not carry repair materials, and could not see the underside of the wing.

Point 4:

I cannot tell exactly what is depicted in this photograph. But I can tell you that it is not the wing. The left shuttle wing is not visible from the cockpit.

This entire article is written with a disregard for research into the facts. It is in the class of "3,000 year old mummy gives birth to healty baby boy," and is deserving of no more credence.
36 posted on 02/02/2003 9:16:50 PM PST by John Valentine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: yonif

The front page of the Fed. 3 2003 Maariv Newspaper. The Headline: The Wing of Death

37 posted on 02/02/2003 9:17:04 PM PST by yonif
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: All

The front page of the Fed. 3 2003 Maariv Newspaper. The Headline: The Wing of Death

38 posted on 02/02/2003 9:17:39 PM PST by yonif
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: yonif
Nice big bold print you have there pardner. Unfortunately, they could not go to the IIS and they could not check or replace any of the tiles.

Let me clue you in on some things. Some things I know for a fact after being around people like Chris Kraft since I was very young. The people that work for NASA would not leave those people in the dark over anything they thought might put them in danger. It just is not done. It would not have been allowed. It is not an option. What kind of pu$$ys do you imagine are involved here?

If the taggers thought that there was a serious problem they would have told the crew. And there would not be some NASA suit telling them to do otherwise. That would not work anyway.

39 posted on 02/02/2003 9:17:41 PM PST by isthisnickcool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: yonif
1. Nasa Did not make any effort to investigate the outside of the ship for serious damage, even after seeing that panel fall on the wing. They could have used a telescope or a spy satellite to do so.

2. Therefore the shuttle could have flown to the space station and waited there for another shuttle

3. Repeat that the Columbia crew was not told of the problems, so they had no chance to investigate or try to fix them (A BIG THING)

The following is part of a post I left on another thread about the shuttle disaster in which a lot of this has already been discussed in detail. I constructed a decision tree based on the situation that NASA may have struggled with:

Previous Shuttle Thread

-------------------

Let us do a "what if" hypothetical.

Let us suppose NASA did suspect a problem with the left wing tiles. They knew they did not have the equipment on STS-107 to do an inspection, either remotely or personally. In addition, the information would be of little use in landing the Shuttle. One way or the other the tiles are either OK or they are not. Knowing which cannot change the re-entry methodology because flying the Shuttle is "like flying a gliding brick" as one early shuttle pilot put it. Because of the volatile supersonic flight characteristics of the Shuttle, it can only safely be handled by a pre-programed computer auto-pilot until the final landing stages. Therefore no "seat of the pants" flight manuevers would or could keep stress off of the left wing and prevent the disaster. Now, assuming this suspicion that the wing tiles are damaged, NASA's managers are faced with a decision: either they leave the shuttle and crew in orbit or they bring them home.

If they leave it in orbit the astronauts have only a few more days of life left. It is inevetible that they will die from asphixiation or CO2 poisoning when either system runs out or fails. Meanwhile, down on Earth NASA is faced with a public relations nightmare. Citizens, nations, families, and not least, politicians demand that SOMETHING BE DONE! But NASA knows they have no assets that can reach the doomed astronauts in time. Sad and pitiful pleadings from loved ones and stoic, resigned brave astronauts are contrasted with "do nothing" NASA administrators. In the end, the nation has a derelict space craft and seven dead astronauts in orbit and NASA has received a blackeye for inaction and mismanagement that may not be recoverable. This scenario is a LOSE-LOSE situation.

Altermately, they bring the shuttle home with two possible outcomes:

1: If the tiles are only minimally damaged, the shuttle lands, NASA managers quietly solve the falling insulation problem and everything is great. NASA WINS!

22: If the tiles are NG, the shuttle disintegrates on re-entry, the Astronauts are killed instantly with no suffering, no drawn out PR nightmare, and no accusations of NASA inaction in efforts to save them. The nation mourns its dead heroes, NASA mounts an investigation, finds the problem and fixes it to the acclaim of Congress who rewards them with added funding for shuttle maintanence. NASA DOESN'T LOSE... and in some ways NASA WINS.

Given this hypothetical, that NASA and the astronauts knew there was a potential problem, there is only one logical choice: Bring the astronauts and shuttle home, at least there is a 50-50 chance of the astronauts surviving. The option of leaving them in orbit is a guaranteed loser... the result is seven dead astronauts. The astronauts ONLY CHANCE was to de-orbit and risk re-entry. They took the only chance they had... and, sadly, they lost.

Bringing them home was a WIN-WIN for NASA in this cynical hypothetical case. Thank God, I am not cynical.

40 posted on 02/02/2003 9:17:57 PM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline Extermination Services, franchises available, small investment, big profit)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: abner
You're right. There's no way the shuttle can have anything protruding from it's wing like is shown in the photograph. Those cracks don't look real anyway.
41 posted on 02/02/2003 9:19:07 PM PST by CarolAnn
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: John Valentine
So you are saying that NASA did the right thing to "leave their fate up to God" in trying to land them?
42 posted on 02/02/2003 9:19:10 PM PST by yonif
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: yonif
That looks like a Hebrew version of the National Enquirer.
43 posted on 02/02/2003 9:19:14 PM PST by txradioguy (Doing my part to keep the country free)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: yonif
No way.
44 posted on 02/02/2003 9:19:42 PM PST by Howlin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: yonif
The Headline: The Wing of Death

Wow, that headline just OOZES credibility.

This is a hoax. I'll eat my words if I'm wrong.

45 posted on 02/02/2003 9:19:45 PM PST by TrappedInLiberalHell (I'm against tags -- that is, I'm antagonistic.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: yonif
This pics looks like a (poorly) photoshop-ed fake. That "wing" has features that do not corespond to the wing of the shuttle.
46 posted on 02/02/2003 9:19:53 PM PST by shadowman99
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TruthNtegrity
I can only wonder why they didn't send them to the space station until they could send another shuttle up to get them.

It was not an option. The ISS is 115 or so miles higher and in a completely different orbit pitch. Columbia did not have the Delta V (the ability to change velocity and vector) to reach the space station.

47 posted on 02/02/2003 9:20:05 PM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline Extermination Services, franchises available, small investment, big profit)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Justa
You cannot possibly be serious. That is NOT a picture from the shuttle.
48 posted on 02/02/2003 9:21:05 PM PST by Howlin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: RaceBannon
I am not sure if that is evil. Why make them worry? There was NOTHING they could do about it.

Sorry, no sale.

Dock or not, they could have found some way to get into the ISS. I bet that place has some extra EVA suits lying around. Or, stay in orbit for a couple of weeks and try to get a Russian ship up there. Or another shuttle. Keeping your fingers crossed and playing the odds is not the way to go.

49 posted on 02/02/2003 9:22:00 PM PST by Lancey Howard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: yonif
They had nothing else to do. The ONLY place tiles can be replaces is on earth. The curing process can't be done in space and each tile is custom made to fit that specific place on the aircraft. They were merely playing the odds by thinking "well we've lost tiles before and got them home safely" No matter how good a gambler you are, the house does still win sometimes as they did this time.
50 posted on 02/02/2003 9:22:37 PM PST by txradioguy (Doing my part to keep the country free)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 301-329 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson