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Live Thread: NASA PRESS CONFERENCE
http://www.freerepublic.com ^ | February 3, 2002

Posted on 02/03/2003 8:19:13 AM PST by Howlin

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To: Joe Hadenuf
My position is to let the investigation proceed, and not jump to conclusions. There are some here who are pushing the idea that NASA deliberately let astronauts fly on a craft that was known to be faulty, in essence letting them go to their doom.

I will refute that type of post, as it is counterproductive.

481 posted on 02/03/2003 4:04:56 PM PST by Miss Marple
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To: Frank_Discussion
reading this thread before I added my notes was great fun. some of my favorite....and most reliable information gatherers abound on this one. Hope my notes adds something to the mix.

Dittmore starts by making changes from yesterday on the timeline: 7:52 am. identified that 3 mainline temperature gauges showed a change in wheelwell in left side.

7:53...strut actuator temperature rose significantly. 30 - 40 degrees rise

7;59 west texas, there was evidence of drag on left side. The yaw jets on right side were firing to compensate for drag on left side right yaw jets had to kick in, and it did, but they couldn't keep up with drag.

32 seconds worth of data is still missing. retrieval of data is still a problem, we are still trying to retrieve it. To help with this, we will send engineers to The White Sands Terminal is where data is downloaded before it is forwarded to NASA. we are going there to try and retrieve additional data.

A temperature of 30- 40 degree rise in wheel area is not necessarily an indication of something going wrong with structure. A rise of 60 degrees in 5 minutes does not represent a major structural event. It's interesting information, but we are still trying to find out what caused it. Think about it, the outside temp was 2000 degrees, so a 60 degree change in temperature, by comparison, is not significant. I don't think this temperature rise necessacerily reflects the exact location of breach. If that were the case, the temperature would be much higher than that. He urges everyone to be cautious of speculation.

Tile analysis:
Time line, events, study, and we finally concurred it was not a problem.

17 Jan Meeting to review launch film.
First meetings occured on 20th.
Reported on 21st to the engineering teams, and trying to reflect on what the debris was...
debris assessment completed on 22
reported to mission management team on 24th and on 27th. Both conclusions were debris that impacted the vehicle, did not represent danger to the crew or equipment.

size of debris used in our assumptions was 2.67 pounds .Size was determined by 2 ways, estimate using film analysis. and utilized information from other launches. Crew photographs determined size and location, we determined size to be 20 by 16 by 6. Debris is coming toward the tank at a slight incident angle, not 90 degrees, so when it comes into the wing, we calculate how much energy it has. That depends on the size and mass. We varied weight, plus other factors, utilizing a program we have. The program is designed to predict penetration of any tile. This is a pecial program we've used many times to predict damage. We based our findings, compared it to actual events after other landings. The program over-predicts (worst cases), damage.

Completed analysis, understanding the worst case, we looked at two worst cases were, a single loss of a single tile near door, and loss of multiple tiles in a larger area.

Our model was predicting we could have damage to bottom of the wing, near the left wing door, (outboard from left door)

Loss of a single tile at the main landing door, our analysis predicted even if there was localized structural damage, it would not cause catastropohic event.

Dittmore made that so clear to understand, even for me...that they carefully studied the launch event, studied the film, and determined there was no danger. He seemed truely cognizant of the fact that the conclusion might eventually prove to be wrong.

Dittmore stops for questions:

CBSNEWS question: I didn't understand it. Answer: it doesn't seem logical that the wheelwell is the source of the problem. There is some other event, something we don't have, that caused the temperature increase.

Question:
Is there a re-entry technique to yaw and protect damaged wing?

Answer:
We have not seen any increase in skin temperature of the craft. (I think he meant none of the data they now have, shows anything but the wheelwell temperature rose.) I am not aware of any other technique that would have allowed more yaw on right side to compensate for drag on left side. I'm doubtful because, remember the temperature on the unused wing would become excessive.

Orlando sentinel: what are the two or three items most crucial to find?

Answer: Any debris upstream of primary impact area. We will be very interested to find any debris upstream of the primary impact area.

wing debris structure, tile, upstream of Fort Worth, (he specified) New mexico Ariz,..if that debris exist, it is extremely important to us.... it would provide a real key to the puzzle.

KINews Austin: Have you reviewed telemitry ? do you have way to measure or estimate of mass?

Answer: This is hilarious reading...but I did the best I could) 2.67 pounds plus velocity, is going to be converted to the energy that hit the wing, disentegrated into energy, in a cloud of dust, and what we are trying to understand is, What impact that energy, had on the tile. That's what our analysts tried to do during the flight.

There may have been local penetration (of the wing structure), but not to the degree that it would violate the structural integrity of the wing:

CNN : You're not comfortable with the notion that the event began in the wheel well, with the rise in temperature there. What are some of the other operating ideas that might explain what could have caused this event?

Answer; it's a mystery...conflicting information.... "some kind of thermal event going on"...but from where, we don't know. Just not plausible that it began in the wheelwell. So there must be something else, but we don't know what it is....here we re 48 hours from the event, and we are still struggling with the event.

If we can get our hands on the debris that holds the key, we will know exactly where each tile came from on the wing, each one is marked. we can map it and make it fit the scenario.. That missing link is out there.

AP: all those meetings between 20 and 27, how many engineers involved, did any of them express reservations to the conclusion that the mission was not in danger? Answer:
At the time, I was not aware of any reservations of anyone on our team. It's not uncommon for people to say, "but what if that's not right?" or something in their gut forces them to speak out. we encourage them to come forward and talk about it"....but I was not aware of anyone expressing that opinion. We have a system, a safety reporting system, mission wide...a person can identify their concerns, their thoughts, anonymously, and we react to it immediately.....we received no such information." I can't say there weren't people with reservations, among 17,000 people, that just doesn't happen, but if they had em, at least they wren't brought to my attention.

"But I am aware now that there have been some reservations expressed...we're reviewing...but they weren't part of our playbook at the time...they didn't come forward, even as "what ifs"....we are reviewing them now." HOuston Chronicle:
how did you eliminate the possibility that this was larger mass of ice that hit wing?
Dittomore says , "I don't know". We are completely redoing analysis from scratch. if we weren't conservative enough..if we made any mistakes...We have a team of engineers and managers who are working to understand the shedding of material from the tank.

We are making the assumption that the material from the tank caused the loss of the vehicle. A fairly drastic assumption, but we've asked everyone including contractors to ask that be our starting place.

USNews Where will reassembly take place? Barksdale?

Answer: I hope we find enough debris to reconstruct. Barksdale for the immediate future.

five questions from FL to follow, but I didn't capture them.

482 posted on 02/03/2003 4:06:14 PM PST by YaYa123
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To: Joe Hadenuf
And I would guess that this bickering has really turned off more than a few readers and is very distracting.

Hear Hear! The bickering has scarred the threads. Signal to noise ratio has plummeted. I chalk much of it to stress of the moment, but also sense that there was a great deal of latent tension. Hopefully the place will regain most, if not all, of the quality it had.

483 posted on 02/03/2003 4:07:36 PM PST by Cboldt
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To: Miss Marple
I am major-league PO'd at quite a few people posting, ALL OF WHOM ARE MEN.

You know men are much better off when they can, in the face of setbacks and disasters, bash things. Since it's pretty hard to go down to Cape Canaveral and bash the launch pad, we'll settle for bashing management at NASA and the White House. Of course it is Congress that desperately needs bashing in this case and maybe we'll get around to that after we're done bashing the most convenient targets.

< /bash >

484 posted on 02/03/2003 4:08:23 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: Miss Marple
There are some here who are pushing the idea that NASA deliberately let astronauts fly on a craft that was known to be faulty, in essence letting them go to their doom.

I'm all confused here; if we disagree with that, are we bickering? Are we just suppose to let them SAY that without it being refuted?

485 posted on 02/03/2003 4:09:09 PM PST by Howlin
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To: YaYa123
Thanks. Catch y'all tomorrow.
486 posted on 02/03/2003 4:20:32 PM PST by Frank_Discussion
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To: Miss Marple
Well, I'm pushing the idea that the damage should have been visualized - And they didn't, and for reasons that astound me.

They *should* have known the craft was damaged, and they should have had means to find that out and done it quickly.

I know there was no plan b in that event. But there should have been. And they would have had the length of the mission to find some way to DO SOMETHING to save the crew. There might have been a way. They might have tried in any case.





487 posted on 02/03/2003 4:25:16 PM PST by SarahW
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To: Howlin
Miss Marple: There are some here who are pushing the idea that NASA deliberately let astronauts fly on a craft that was known to be faulty, in essence letting them go to their doom.

Howlin: I'm all confused here; if we disagree with that, are we bickering? Are we just suppose to let them SAY that without it being refuted?

I'll speak for myself (not that any of you have tried to put words in my mouth, I am just offering my opinion). I don't have an answer, but it is my sense that many of these threads contain exchanges that are hostile and repetitive. I suppose, given the subject, that is inevitable.

After a time, the facts (regarding the tragic loss of the crew of the Columbia, and the vessel too) will speak for themselves, and put a good number of "conclusion jumpers" in a bad light.

I totally agree with your sentiment regarding NASA bashing. I am impressed with Dittemore's and NASA's response so far. I believe NASA was careful with this. Even though their gut told them the orbitor tiles were okay, they studied the potential effect of liftoff strikes against the tiles. Then, after the loss, they admitted that perhaps their study was flawed, and that they were reviewing that. When a big organization like NASA is open with facts like that, I develop trust in their statements.

I have to admit, I have expressed difference of opinion with a few who were claiming NASA had been negligent (that is, I haven't followed my own advice to keep my mouth shut), then I figured it was a waste of my energy, and in many cases, only served to encourage the other side to post a response.

488 posted on 02/03/2003 4:29:53 PM PST by Cboldt
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To: SarahW

Now reflect upon the following information from the Press Conference today and give us what you think should have been done after they reached the conclusion that nothing was damaged and no danger to crew or equipment existed. Any answer you can provide would be appreciated.

Tile analysis:
Time line, events, study, and we finally concurred it was not a problem.

17 Jan Meeting to review launch film.
First meetings occured on 20th.
Reported on 21st to the engineering teams, and trying to reflect on what the debris was...
debris assessment completed on 22
reported to mission management team on 24th and on 27th. Both conclusions were debris that impacted the vehicle, did not represent danger to the crew or equipment.


489 posted on 02/03/2003 4:42:35 PM PST by deport (kinda like one 'tard' leading another 'tard')
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To: Cboldt
only served to encourage the other side to post a response.


LOL.... but you see the object is to get the last response in..... nanna nanna nanna.... All this bickering isn't worth a bucket of warm spit and will not impact the outcome of the investigations one way or the other, imo. The final analysis/reports will be reviewed by many and in today's enviornment I doubt if everyone will be satisfied with the final conclusions reach by the assessment teams. And it maybe that no definitive answer is forthcoming.
490 posted on 02/03/2003 4:52:11 PM PST by deport
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To: Chad Fairbanks
On the news today some reporter said that an 8 x 12 feet piece of insulation hit the shuttle when it was 8 inches by 12 inches. So I wanted to make sure that someone didn't look at 8 x 12 and think feet not inches. I figured if a reporter could do it, the tin foil hat people would really go after that!
491 posted on 02/03/2003 5:47:44 PM PST by PhiKapMom (Bush/Cheney 2004)
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To: PhiKapMom
I'm sorry.. I didn't catch that.. what? ;0)
492 posted on 02/03/2003 5:51:40 PM PST by Chad Fairbanks ('I WISH, at some point, that you would address those damned armadillos in your trousers." - JustShe)
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To: deport
And it maybe that no definitive answer is forthcoming.

Hopefully, they will located the piece of the left wing that appeared to be struck by the object in the video image, just after launch. If this portion of the wing is found where the object struck the wing or at the point of impact, it may very well reveal evidence of substantial damage to that wing, and be directly attributed to the cause of the shuttle break up.

They need to find most of the pieces to the left wing. This may never happen, but if they do find most of the pieces to the left wing, this puzzle and the investigation into the cause may be solved.

It is my speculation that the left wing, if it was the cause, will be found further west than most of the debris field. The more pieces they find on the west side of the debris field will be much more revealing.

493 posted on 02/03/2003 5:56:04 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Joe Hadenuf
Well a certain poster on this thread hits all these type threads and takes to name calling when we won't bend to his wishes. Inferring you are with NASA when you probably are not irritates me to no end -- that was done on another thread. Ask Doughty One and he will fill you in if you don't believe me. This has been going on for a long time when something happens with the Government.

As I have stated over and over again, it is too soon to be absolutely sure about what caused the accident. That is why you have Accident Investigation Teams. For anyone to state with certainty that it is the tiles like I have seen in the press today and on here is wrong.

Howlin, myself, and others were reporting what was said at the press conference by NASA. Sorry if that makes me an "idiot" but I can hear and I can type!
494 posted on 02/03/2003 5:59:42 PM PST by PhiKapMom (Bush/Cheney 2004)
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To: Chad Fairbanks
Remember the piece of insulation that feel off when the shuttle lifted off? It was 8 x 12 inches and some members of the press were reporting it was an 8 x 12 feet piece that came off. Also NASA's spokesman gave the demonstration that the 8 x 12 inch piece of insulation did not hit the shuttle wing at 90 degrees which could have caused damage but gave it a glancing blow as it fell away.
495 posted on 02/03/2003 6:04:33 PM PST by PhiKapMom (Bush/Cheney 2004)
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To: Darlin'
Sure. ET = External Tank ...the big orange tank that holds the liquid fuel and that is covered in foam insulation being discussed. STS = Space Transportation System. It is the system of all the elements. However, at NASA the STS can also include NON manned flights...To the layman it usually means the five elements. ET, SRB (Solid Rocket Booster) SRM (Solid Rocket Motor) SSME (Space Shuttle Main Engines...3 on the Orbiter. And the Orbiter (No initials used in NASA lingo) I don't buy all the budget cutback BS. It's very complicated to depict the inner wranglings regarding the Government/Contractor marriage. The Contractor ALWAYS wants more money. He's a capitalist, will take the money and run. All the money thrown at the Shuttle program would not have prevented the FOAM insulation from falling off and hitting the Orbiter leading edge, if that's where the problem lies.

This is a very incomplete statement, but would take many pages to depict the situation.

496 posted on 02/03/2003 8:08:56 PM PST by Gracey
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